3 o'clock concealment draws from untucked shirt par times?

[LSW]

I was wondering if anyone had par times for IWB 3-3:30 carry from under an untucked shirt. I usually just wear a polo that's a size too big for concealment. I use the off hand lifting method.

I'm pretty slow. My par times to guarantee a down 0 hit on an idpa target:

5 yards 1.6
10 yards 1.9
20 yards 2.3

Dry fire 1.2 with only a trigger prep, no press a la steve anderson sight picture confirmation (using a 1/3 size target at 10 feet to simulate 10 yards)

Does anyone else use this kind of carry/concealment combo, and if so are there any tips/tricks to getting things down to 1.5 or less consistently? I'm using an M&P 2.0 9mm full size. I know I could probably shave .2-.3 by just going to AIWB but I'm chunky plus I play IDPA and like to practice for that too.

[Leroy Suggs]

Thats not all that slow from 330 concealment.

I have found using the strong hand to start the lift--both hands will be on the shirt- to be a bit faster and less fumble prone.

Can go pretty fast one handed using the strong hand lift too.

In my opinion it is crucial to be able to draw and shoot strong hand only from your draw protocol.

[YVK]

Thats not all that slow from 330 concealment.


That's what I thought too. Been ages since I did IWB but I think your times are very respectable.

I'd also point out that gear in IWB matters quite a bit. It is one thing to be digging a compact pistol out of VM2, and totally another to draw a full sized gun from kydex that lifts that gun 2 inches over the belt.

[Mr_White]

I was wondering if anyone had par times for IWB 3-3:30 carry from under an untucked shirt. I usually just wear a polo that's a size too big for concealment. I use the off hand lifting method.

I'm pretty slow. My par times to guarantee a down 0 hit on an idpa target:

5 yards 1.6
10 yards 1.9
20 yards 2.3

Dry fire 1.2 with only a trigger prep, no press a la steve anderson sight picture confirmation (using a 1/3 size target at 10 feet to simulate 10 yards)

Does anyone else use this kind of carry/concealment combo, and if so are there any tips/tricks to getting things down to 1.5 or less consistently? I'm using an M&P 2.0 9mm full size. I know I could probably shave .2-.3 by just going to AIWB but I'm chunky plus I play IDPA and like to practice for that too.

Wish I could tell you more specifically, and I did used to carry that way, but it has been a really long time and I don't think I had even seen a timer yet by that point. Off the top of my head, I think 1.5 is pretty strong. I know I've seen reports of draws in the neighborhood of 1.1 There's a good video of another member here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23876-Most-comfortable-Aiwb-holster-for-1911&p=551416&viewfull=1#post551416

Right before I switched to AIWB, I had been carrying in a Blade-Tech strong side IWB with open front cover and spent a bunch of time working on my draw. I was down to 1.2-1.3 seconds from that rig and concealment for a pretty reliable hit on an 8" circle/A-zone at 7 yards, IIRC. I remember the very fastest draw I saw on the timer from that arrangement was 0.99. That was ONE time and I don't think it was a hit. And it was a long time ago.

Your question kind of makes me want to dig a holster out of the closet and at least try out some par times in dry fire.

If you can post some video, I think people will be able to give a lot better and more specific feedback.

[ASH556]

I carry a G17 in a JM V3 at 3:30 under a polo. From my range session last FridayI was mid-1.4's to 1.5's at 7 yds to 8" circle and 1.7's to 7 yd 3x5.

[LSW]

I'm using a 10 year old comp-tac MTAC holster. It has a leather backing that covers most of the grip and slide where it would otherwise contact your side/undershirt with a kydex shell facing the belt and two C clips. Will try to con my wife into videoing me.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Tom Givens has one of the best concealed hip draw I have ever seen. I may try and find footage when I'm home.


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[Gio]

I typically run in the 1.0-1.2 range from an JM OWB2 holster concealed with a closed front T-shirt or polo and getting around 90-95% A zone hits on an open 7 yd target. I lift my shirt with both hands rather than just my weak hand as I find it much more reliable for a wide range of different types of concealing garments than trying to just use my weak hand, although just using weak hand can be a bit faster. Compare this to my open carry draw times, which range from about .75-.90 on the same size target. I will try to post some dry fire videos this evening if it would help.

[LSW]

Not the best angles I know, but I just had to try to set my phone on the bench. Give me your worst, my movements look very labored and jerky in the videos. Keep in mind every tailor I go to tells me I have freakishly long arms for my height.

5 yards: averaging about 1.68. 9 0's, 1 down 1. The down 1 was a messed up grip on the draw due to grabbing undershirt, ended up with half my finger through the trigger guard and it went high left into down 1 with a bad 1.83.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pokxzpiAko&feature=youtu.be



10 yards: averaging about 1.9, had 8 0's and 2 down 1's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lth11q9WsA&feature=youtu.be

[Gio]

Not the best angles I know, but I just had to try to set my phone on the bench. Give me your worst, my movements look very labored and jerky in the videos. Keep in mind every tailor I go to tells me I have freakishly long arms for my height.

5 yards: averaging about 1.68. 9 0's, 1 down 1. The down 1 was a messed up grip on the draw due to grabbing undershirt, ended up with half my finger through the trigger guard and it went high left into down 1 with a bad 1.83.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pokxzpiAko&feature=youtu.be


It looks like you are moving inefficiently in my opinion. Two big areas you can clean up:
1. You are creating a lot of wasted movement with your strong hand before it goes to the gun. It almost looks like your strong hand comes away from your side before coming back in toward the gun. You want to make sure your hand moves straight to the pistol with no excess movement. See this still-shot from your video as an example:
14351

2. After the gun comes out, you seem to roll/move your shoulders forward and lean forward before breaking the shot. Try to draw from the position you want to be in when the shot breaks so you don't have to adjust your upper body positioning after drawing.

[scjbash]

I'll second Gio about wasted movement. I recommend watching your videos in slow motion looking for any wasted movement, and then working on eliminating the excess one problem at a time.

This is my IWB draw with a 1.1 par and no trigger press. I can break shots under 1.0 but where they hit is a crapshoot, as shown in the 3 yard challenge thread. That last .1 -.2 is hell.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24373-The-T-Rex-Arms-3yard-concealment-challenge

To be consistent on an A zone at seven yards I need to stay in the 1.25 range, or closer to 1.15 if I'm shooting weekly and doing dry work.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKCaf0uNH2s&feature=youtu.be

I have two variations of my draw, and not by choice. Drawing at 1.5 or slower I'm able to get the gun level by the time I've reached extension. The press out used by a lot of folks here doesn't work for me and I prefer to take a straight line from the holster to extension. What I've found though is that when I push the speed I reach extension before the gun is level and the front sight is on target, and I have to lift the gun upward a couple/few inches as I apply the brakes. It makes it appear on video that I'm bowling from the holster, and what's actually happening isn't apparent unless you slow the video down. I worked at correcting that to no avail. I'm going to try one more time and if it continues I'm just going to live with it.

[BJXDS]

Following with interest. You may want to slow down and make sure you look the gun into the holster.

[fixer]

LSW,

Those times are about in line with mine for , like you said, accurate A zone hits.

I've pushed it a few dozen times and the best I could do was 1.2-1.4 at 7 yds. At 25 yds I have done 1.9 but I was only hoping to keep rounds in the C zone.

I carry at 3:00-3:30 and a Glock 19. It feels like I am way faster with a G17/G22 but the shot timer doesn't back it up.

[Gio]

Here are a couple videos I threw together tonight at 1.0 sec par time. Notice I am clearing the shirt with both hands, which gives me more forgiveness on the draw. I could shave .1 or so by using just my weak hand, but find that method to be inconsistent, especially with a longer shirt or button up. I also work to minimize any excess movement/travel of my hands/shoulders/body going to the gun and then presenting it out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZBdj4AweUc

I attempted to get a few in slow motion, but the lack of lighting in my garage wasn't conducive to good video quality. You can still see general movement, however, and you can hear the amplified sound of the shot timer and trigger break:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5d41shV43s&t=18s

[GyroF-16]

Also watching with interest. 1.6-1.8 seems very good from concealment in my experience. I'm using a USP Compact LEM in a VM2, and am usually right at 2.0 sec from 7 yds, so color me impressed.
I'll be looking to learn along with you.

Gyro

[LSW]

Part of my slowness might be idpa, haha. If I lean forward too much prior to the timer going off I've had saftey officers come up and push my chest back to a more upright position. Maybe I could at least lean forward to the shot break position when the buzzer goes off, because I agree there is a .1-.2 hesitation while the sights are almost on target. Also they don't like it if your hands are forward of your pant seams. In regard to my strong hand moving out, maybe it's because my shirts are pretty long, but that hand can get caught up in the shirt sweep if I don't move it away from my side a bit. I agree it could be less movement though and I'll work on that. I appreciate all the feedback so far.

[scjbash]

Part of my slowness might be idpa, haha. If I lean forward too much prior to the timer going off I've had saftey officers come up and push my chest back to a more upright position. Maybe I could at least lean forward to the shot break position when the buzzer goes off, because I agree there is a .1-.2 hesitation while the sights are almost on target.

My suggestion would be to eliminate the forward lean. I think you'll find it's unnecessary. If you look at the videos Gio and I posted you'll see we both stay upright. Leaning forward just isn't needed to control the gun. I used to do it and getting rid of it gave me a new base to work from that led to large improvements as a shooter.

[Mr_White]

Not the best angles I know, but I just had to try to set my phone on the bench. Give me your worst, my movements look very labored and jerky in the videos. Keep in mind every tailor I go to tells me I have freakishly long arms for my height.

5 yards: averaging about 1.68. 9 0's, 1 down 1. The down 1 was a messed up grip on the draw due to grabbing undershirt, ended up with half my finger through the trigger guard and it went high left into down 1 with a bad 1.83.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pokxzpiAko&feature=youtu.be



10 yards: averaging about 1.9, had 8 0's and 2 down 1's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lth11q9WsA&feature=youtu.be

Now that I'm caught up on the thread, some of what I wrote here is redundant to thing you and others said...

---

Maybe move the shirt a bit less, as well as your strong hand. There may be balance between that, and getting the shirt out of the way before your strong hand is getting on the grip (to avoid a handful of shirt around the gun.)

The elongated lean forward happening late in the draw looks like it would cause gun movement when you want to be stopping, aiming, and finalizing trigger. Get the gun all the way out and bring it to a smooth stop quickly.

Let the gun pause on target just a little longer after firing rather than rocketing back toward the holster as soon as the shot is away.

Holster slower and with less force. That's too hard and fast to put the gun into the holster.

It's best if we have a view of everything that moves. If possible get your hands into the frame even at their start position, and the gun into the frame when it is fully extended and firing - horizontal video frame is usually better than vertical.

[LSW]

My suggestion would be to eliminate the forward lean. I think you'll find it's unnecessary. If you look at the videos Gio and I posted you'll see we both stay upright. Leaning forward just isn't needed to control the gun. I used to do it and getting rid of it gave me a new base to work from that led to large improvements as a shooter.

Speaking of which, I was reading stoeger's practical pistol book, he doesn't really lean at all, I need to finish reading it. I just can't seem to fire with bent elbows without a full press out like he does though. As a matter of fact he was shooting in the bay next to me when I shot these videos :p. Should've had him sign my ipad.

[LSW]

Now that I'm caught up on the thread, some of what I wrote here is redundant to thing you and others said...

---

Maybe move the shirt a bit less, as well as your strong hand. There may be balance between that, and getting the shirt out of the way before your strong hand is getting on the grip (to avoid a handful of shirt around the gun.)

The elongated lean forward happening late in the draw looks like it would cause gun movement when you want to be stopping, aiming, and finalizing trigger. Get the gun all the way out and bring it to a smooth stop quickly.

Let the gun pause on target just a little longer after firing rather than rocketing back toward the holster as soon as the shot is away.

Holster slower and with less force. That's too hard and fast to put the gun into the holster.

It's best if we have a view of everything that moves. If possible get your hands into the frame even at their start position, and the gun into the frame when it is fully extended and firing - horizontal video frame is usually better than vertical.

That's a good point, I really appreciate the advice. I will try to setup a better video next time I practice draws. Thanks for the critique on re-holstering, I do need to work on being safer on that.....I even dropped the gun in practice one day a few months back. Luckily it was already unloaded, but I DQ'd myself from pracitce and stopped shooting to think about it.

[Trigger]

Caleb at Gun Nuts Media has some video on this issue, comparing strong side draw vs. AIWB draw. More data for comparison.

http://www.gunnuts.net/2016/12/23/concealed-carry-tips-appendix-carry-vs-idpa-concealment/

I will look to see if he has video with a polo shirt instead.

[scjbash]

Speaking of which, I was reading stoeger's practical pistol book, he doesn't really lean at all, I need to finish reading it. I just can't seem to fire with bent elbows without a full press out like he does though. As a matter of fact he was shooting in the bay next to me when I shot these videos :p. Should've had him sign my ipad.

It took me a while to correct it. My natural instinct was to lean and standing straight seemed very unnatural. After a bunch of work standing straight became natural. For me it was worth changing.

[LittleLebowski]

Just tried this. 3 seconds is more than enough to hit a 3x5 card at 7 yards.

[JHC]

Here are a couple videos I threw together tonight at 1.0 sec par time. Notice I am clearing the shirt with both hands, which gives me more forgiveness on the draw. I could shave .1 or so by using just my weak hand, but find that method to be inconsistent, especially with a longer shirt or button up. I also work to minimize any excess movement/travel of my hands/shoulders/body going to the gun and then presenting it out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZBdj4AweUc

I attempted to get a few in slow motion, but the lack of lighting in my garage wasn't conducive to good video quality. You can still see general movement, however, and you can hear the amplified sound of the shot timer and trigger break:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5d41shV43s&t=18s

That's how I would do it if I was, like, way more talented. ;)

Good stuff there.

[ASH556]

1.1 sec par, dry (dummy pistol actually)


https://youtu.be/TusUfercuTI

[LSW]

Do you guys think I should keep "competing" in idpa this way or just give up and get a vest. I feel like with the new scoring draw time isn't really going to make a huge difference, 1 or 2 down 1 hits would matter more.

[GJM]

Do you guys think I should keep "competing" in idpa this way or just give up and get a vest. I feel like with the new scoring draw time isn't really going to make a huge difference, 1 or 2 down 1 hits would matter more.

Doesn't matter. The draw is a lot more important on PF than in IDPA or USPSA.

[Mr_White]

Do you guys think I should keep "competing" in idpa this way or just give up and get a vest. I feel like with the new scoring draw time isn't really going to make a huge difference, 1 or 2 down 1 hits would matter more.

Only you can know. It just depends on what you want out of idpa. If the game is the highest priority then definitely get the vest and do everything you can that's proper to post your highest score. If your highest priority is the way you feel about shooting your carry rig in competition then keep going.

[YVK]

I gave Gabe a like on philosophical principles but, in a practical sense, I don't think it makes a lick of a difference. IDPA match is six or stages, you get to draw six times, or less if there are non-draw starts. If you carry IWB and compete IWB, six or less additional draws on the weekend won't add to your skill set. It is only a verification / feedback. If you carry IWB and compete OWB, six or less draws from OWB won't detract from your skill set. Don't matter what you do in a practical sense, other than placing you in a slight competitive disadvantage.

[Mr_White]

No argument, and that's why I say the real reason to do it boils down to feelings.

[LittleLebowski]

Only you can know. It just depends on what you want out of idpa. If the game is the highest priority then definitely get the vest and do everything you can that's proper to post your highest score. If your highest priority is the way you feel about shooting your carry rig in competition then keep going.

The answer. Personally, I'd stick with how I carry.

[LittleLebowski]

Just tried this. 3 seconds is more than enough to hit a 3x5 card at 7 yards.

2 seconds is also doable.

[Cory]

I'm a nobody compared with the folks in this thread. But here's what I think about:

Economy of movement. I want to get something from every movement I make in my draw. If I'm doing something, it needs to add something. When I started keeping a record of my training here on PF, I just whipped the pistol out with all the speed my hands could muster, pointed it at an index card and yanked the trigger till it clicked. That has value to build speed... but it has to be focused into form.

I would try standing straight up like you would if you were having a conversation with a friend. Then see how you can get your pistol out and on target with your arms moving as little as possible. Don't use a timer. Actually look down and watch yourself draw and see if you could move your arms less somehow. By keeping an elbow tighter, or by moving straighter, or arcing different. Once you've found the LEAST movement way to do it, try some timer reps. If it isn't consistent then look at why and you may need to add steps like using your strong hand to clear a cover. Or moving up your chest more before pushing outward.

Gio has an impressive draw from strong side. But watch his video, you'll struggle to spot wasted movement. And what does look like it might be extra (his leg bob) actually helps bring his pistol to his hand faster.

snip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZBdj4AweUc
snip

Here is me working a strong side draw to sight picture (no trigger break) with a .9 draw time. Jump to 1:38. The par time comes from a Ben Steoger par time on his Single Target Gun Handling dry fire routine. It's string 2. This is back in December, so I have changed to AWIB now but the same idea applies. And this does not translate to the same times for me live fire. Hope this somehow helps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=99&v=iJtfr9cFok8#t=01m38s

-Cory

[JAD]

The answer. Personally, I'd stick with how I carry.

I invest the money I would have spent on gaming gear in obsolete weapons.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Follow through on every shot. Get that extra sight picture before you prepare to holster. Then come back to a ready position and clear garment before reholstering. The harder the break, the safer you and everyone else will be.

I wholeheartedly agree on shooting more upright. IMO, you should be getting any lean forward only from slight hip and knee relaxation. The higher your eyes are the more you get to see generally.

I always ran a little slower than I could be from the hip because of always clearing garments 2-handed. If I stuck w it longer I probably could have closed that gap and I'm sure you can too.

I would like to see you work on an indexing of your gun hand during the clear where you are assisting/assuring the clear with your thumb directly moving over the gun until it can pass over the tang and you can move into a grip. Basically using both hands to start clearing and breaking the firing hand off to the gun just after the garment is over it if that makes sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

I invest the money I would have spent on gaming gear in obsolete weapons.

I wish you could have heard Todd's take on the 1911 and AIWB, you would have liked it . He certainly didn't feel that it was obsolete. Especially for AIWB.

[JAD]

I wish you could have heard Todd's take on the 1911 and AIWB, you would have liked it . He certainly didn't feel that it was obsolete. Especially for AIWB.
He shared enough on the forum, I think. "Obsolete" is harsh, but the capacity thing is hard to argue with. If I can shoot a high cap as well as the 1911, which I think is at least nearly true of the G17 for me, it's a little foolish to carry a single stack.

Fortunately I find LWCs a *lot* easier to carry than Glocks, and I have a bunch of them, so it excuses me a little. But just a little.

My point was, while I certainly endorse the idea that one should be trying to win if one is playing a game, for me if I were to find time to return to competition I would accept the limitations of my carry equipment (saving mag pouches) and do my best. For me, that's because if I was really trying to win the game, I would be devoting a significant amount of my practice time to the game setup, and at some point that would get detrimental.

For me, though, the big trying-to-win obstacle is more a matter of the physical actions one has to take to be competitive -- port address, a certain balance of accuracy and speed. For more gifted people I'm sure it's not a problem, but if my dumb ass drills jamming my gun past cover, I will do so when it's not such a good idea.

A man's got to know his limitations.

[Mr_White]

He shared enough on the forum, I think. "Obsolete" is harsh, but the capacity thing is hard to argue with. If I can shoot a high cap as well as the 1911, which I think is at least nearly true of the G17 for me, it's a little foolish to carry a single stack.

Fortunately I find LWCs a *lot* easier to carry than Glocks, and I have a bunch of them, so it excuses me a little. But just a little.

My point was, while I certainly endorse the idea that one should be trying to win if one is playing a game, for me if I were to find time to return to competition I would accept the limitations of my carry equipment (saving mag pouches) and do my best. For me, that's because if I was really trying to win the game, I would be devoting a significant amount of my practice time to the game setup, and at some point that would get detrimental.

For me, though, the big trying-to-win obstacle is more a matter of the physical actions one has to take to be competitive -- port address, a certain balance of accuracy and speed. For more gifted people I'm sure it's not a problem, but if my dumb ass drills jamming my gun past cover, I will do so when it's not such a good idea.

A man's got to know his limitations.

JAD I think you hit on a number of important things there.

There are several main ways to reconcile a core defensive interest with participation in a competition in order to benefit from what it has to offer.

At one extreme is someone not just competing with their carry/duty gear, but addressing the stage in what they believe to be a tactically-correct manner. This is going to take them completely out of contention for a decent score because they are spending so much time working their way through the stage. I don't begrudge anyone this, but it is not the route I would go because I think it loses one of the biggest benefits of competition, which is the pressure and mental management attached to trying to win. There are still limitations too - a lot of times, the best tactic is simply not going to be something you can really do in the competitive venue. A shooter might not get very far if every time the RO hit the timer, the shooter drew while running uprange to the corner of the bay and held the hard corner against all the threats in the bay, while simulating calling 911. I don't think this approach completely lacks any value, I just think it loses a lot of the available value.

Next is what I do - like you JAD, I just don't have any real motivation to practice extensively with gear I'm not going to carry. Use carry gear, but play the game the way the game is played, try to post the best score and try to win. I am not practicing tactics at competition and I save that for tactical training. I use the gear I want to use, which isn't the smartest, but otherwise play the game and try to post the best score I can. The big benefit is that one can legitimately be IN the competition, with all the pressure and mental stuff that brings.

Then there is the normal method of shooting competition gear in competition and staying familiar with carry gear outside of competition. I have no doubt that skill will transfer, especially if the competition gear is pretty similar to the carry gear.

I think those are the three big ways to slice it, and they all have some kind of value.

[Gio]

JAD I think you hit on a number of important things there.At one extreme is someone not just competing with their carry/duty gear, but addressing the stage in what they believe to be a tactically-correct manner. This is going to take them completely out of contention for a decent score because they are spending so much time working their way through the stage. I don't begrudge anyone this, but it is not the route I would go because I think it loses one of the biggest benefits of competition, which is the pressure and mental management attached to trying to win. There are still limitations too - a lot of times, the best tactic is simply not going to be something you can really do in the competitive venue. A shooter might not get very far if every time the RO hit the timer, the shooter drew while running uprange to the corner of the bay and held the hard corner against all the threats in the bay, while simulating calling 911. I don't think this approach completely lacks any value, I just think it loses a lot of the available value.


This should be highlighted. One of the biggest benefits of shooting competition is the performance under pressure. I see a lot of people that post videos to social media of themselves pulling off seemingly world class feats like 1 second headshots at 25 yds, 2.5 second plate racks, etc. Then I see them shoot at a C to B class level at a match. Pressure and on demand performance are real things.

I personally fall into the category of using competition gear (inner/outer belt, production legal holster/mag pouches) in competition. I also carry a gun professionally in both plain clothes and overt/tactical assignments. I compete with a G34 or 35 with fiber optic sights and a slightly lighter trigger, while my carry guns are stock glocks with HD sights. At least 75% of my practice is with my competition gear. This has had no negative effects on my performance with my carry guns. In fact, I shoot them to the same level I shoot my competition guns, and the hand speed and visual discipline that I've developed from training for competition has improved my performance across the board. I've never found myself reaching for my competition gear when I'm drawing from either an open retention holster or strong side IWB. I seem to get in the correct "mental mode" depending on what situation I'm in, with no ill effects or negative crossover from one to another.