armed "legal issues" aka "staying ready, beating the BG AND avoiding jail"

[LeeC]

I'm interested in a discussion about getting up to speed and keeping current on the legal issues of gun ownership, concealed carry and use of force. I didn't find this topic discussed as the central idea elsewhere on this forum, so I thought this would be the best place to start a thread. If this subject is inappropriate for pistol-forum.com because it is already mastered elsewhere, please advise the location and I'll go there to get educated and participate.

As a newcomer to carrying early this year, I took an all day class that was mostly classroom, that touched on many legal aspects of owning, carrying and using a gun. I had planned on taking the follow-up class that included having a lawyer attend for Q&A that specializes in defense of gun usage, but it was not scheduled, so I read what I can find.

I started by purchasing and studying "The Virginia Gun Owners Guide" copyright 2009 by Alan Korwin and Steve Maniscalco. One of the things I found odd (actually annoying) (pg 69-70) was that where alcohol is served, you can only open carry. So I had reluctantly been stuffing my shirt tail behind my gun when I went in to eat at places serving alcohol. I don't drink alcohol anymore, so I found this an annoying inconvenience, presumably backed by some convoluted logic that the wait staff should be on their best behavior to not serve me too much booze since they should see that I was toting a gun.

Then I read the coverage on this forum, including the newspaper writeup, about the guy near Fredericksburg that was carrying AIWB with no holster, did something while parked in his vehicle to discharge his pistol into an artery and bled out. The newspaper writeup related another incident where the accidental discharge involved someone that was drinking alcohol in a restaurant while carrying concealed, and said that person had also been charged for the drinking while concealed carrying. "Hey, wait a minute" I thought to myself. That can't be right. But when I went to the section of the Virginia Code covering the topic, I discovered that it had been changed since the 2009 edition of "The Virginia Gun Owners Guide" had been published. Now the Guide did make it very clear that there are tons of laws about firearms and they are changing all the time.

So this realization that I was operating under stale information gave me cause for concern. What else am I wrong about regarding laws and firearms?

After reading "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, it became clear to me that by carrying and using a firearm, the risk of harm from the legal system is at least as big as the risk from damage by bad guys, or the risk of harming yourself through negligence. Use too little force too late, end up in the hospital or morgue. Use too much force too soon, end up in jail. Additionally, be ignorant of the current laws and their interpretations and enforcements, and end up with a potentially hefty fine and/or jail sentence.

So, here are some questions I'll start with:

1. Should your checklist for being completely prepared to use your firearm defensively include having the phone number of a lawyer that is competent to defend you and will respond to your phone call?
2. If yes, how do you go about locating such a lawyer?
3. You get distracted, absent-minded, go on autopilot or whatever, and now you find yourself carrying your firearm some place that is illegal or prohibited. What is your best course of action? Obviously this depends on where you are. Should you (A) leave as soon and as quietly as possible, and hope that the luck that got you in will get you out, or (B) notify the authority having jurisdiction of your oversight, and request an escort out of the area? I had a dream about this last night, which is what prompted me to finally start this thread that I've been thinking about for a while, ever since the realization that I can now conceal carry in a restaurant serving alcohol.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

So, here are some questions I'll start with:

1. Should your checklist for being completely prepared to use your firearm defensively include having the phone number of a lawyer that is competent to defend you and will respond to your phone call?

2. If yes, how do you go about locating such a lawyer?

3. You get distracted, absent-minded, go on autopilot or whatever, and now you find yourself carrying your firearm some place that is illegal or prohibited. What is your best course of action? Obviously this depends on where you are. Should you (A) leave as soon and as quietly as possible, and hope that the luck that got you in will get you out, or (B) notify the authority having jurisdiction of your oversight, and request an escort out of the area? I had a dream about this last night, which is what prompted me to finally start this thread that I've been thinking about for a while, ever since the realization that I can now conceal carry in a restaurant serving alcohol.

1. No! Who the hell wants to talk to a lawyer anyway! Bunch of fucking thieves!

2. See #1!

3. Don't worry, you'll be fine. It's your right to resist unjust laws, courts be dammed!

Why, yes, I am an asshole, and I couldn't resist...sorry. :)

OK, seriously...You may want to read this:

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/combat-handguns/justified-shooting-aftermath/

Note the most important line in Massad Ayoob's article (and possibly the best words he's ever written...) "Mitchell Lake’s advice above is solid."

So, in truth:

#1 Yes.

#2 Word of mouth, check with instructors in your area, the shooter's bar website and the NRA-ILA will point you in the right direction.

#3 Leave quietly. You forgot something in your car that you need/your mother called you because she forgot to refrigerate her insulin and you can't have it go bad...Get the fuck out, calmly. If they didn't find it, they didn't find it. If they did, you wouldn't be getting an escort out, but to holding cells.

[theblacknight]

http://www.gunlaws.com/AYS.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMxNA7Qsdao

[MechEng]

1. Yes

2. Here is a good place to start looking for VA gun friendly Lawers. http://www.hkshooter.net/lawyers/

3. (A)

If you went speeding by an LEO sitting on the side of the road, and he didn’t pull out to chase you down for speeding, would you turn around and voluntarily go back to apologies for violating the speed limit?

[Dropkick]

Mitchell's advice is sound.

For #2: Here in VA we have the Virginia Citizens Defense League, http://vcdl.org/
And they maintain a list of "Gun Friendly Lawyers" http://www.hkshooter.net/lawyers/

Something you should also be aware of is, after the shooting, but before any legal proceedings, is how to handle Law Enforcement after a shooting. Massad Ayoob offers this advice...

...deleted...

While that's just the very basics, it's important to consider what to do then too.

[LittleLebowski]

I can personally recommend a gun friendly lawyer who is licensed to practice in VA, Maryland, and DC. How gun friendly? He attends Defoor and Vickers classes and competes in local matches. He also won me a lot of money in a lawsuit. He is and knows that he is my guy on call if anything ever happens with my drawing a weapon. PM me if you'd like his contact info.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Something you should also be aware of is, after the shooting, but before any legal proceedings, is how to handle Law Enforcement after a shooting. Massad Ayoob offers this advice...

5 Things To Do After A Shooting:
1. Point out the perpetrator to police
2. Tell police you will "Sign the complaint"�
3. Point out evidence to police
4. Point out witnesses to police
5. Tell police you will give full cooperation in 24 hours after speaking with an attorney (and obtain medical treatment if necessary)

While that's just the very basics, it's important to consider what to do then too.

Where the fuck do people get the 24 hour shit? Seriously?

Where are they getting it? From who are they getting it? I want to know so I can blackjack them. I took Mas's class, and he doesn't tell people to put a hard time limit on it.

If your shooting was at 2 AM, are you going to give a statement at 2 AM the next day? And as to full cooperation after speaking with an attorney - fuck that shit.

You will tell your attorney what happened, and he will tell you if you will be making a statement, when you will make it and how it will be made (oral or written) and when to shut up if he lets you speak.

Full cooperation is off the table. Cooperation to the extent your attorney permits is on the table (which, depending on the situation, may look a lot like full cooperation...but monitoried by someone who is paid to care about YOU, not anything else..).

I disagree with the default of making a statement although I recgonise it's importance in many cases; however, people blindly quoting things simply because some smart guy (and Mas is a smart guy...) said it, especially in this forum, is making me pissed off.

It's not enough that Mas said it. You should understand it before repeating it to pass it on.

[TGS]

Enter Nyeti.....

[joshs]

I wouldn't bother with After You Shoot. Korwin sets up a gigantic foil, his "Adnarim statement" and then spends the majority of the book complaining about how it won't work due to current norms: talking with first responders, calling 911, etc.

The most important thing you can do, is the same thing you should be doing every day: behave reasonably. If, for some reason, you are not able to do this, ask for an attorney and shut up.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Let him say what he wants to, this isn't about statements or not.

It's about repeating things without understanding them.

If you say "I will give full cooperation in 24 hours after speaking with an attorney..." and you don't...got something to hide?

You don't get to chose how people take what you say, and you are assumed to understand and mean what you say. You said you would cooperate, and now you are not cooperating.

Even if 24 hours after the shooting you are a bit of a zombie because you haven't slept or eaten and have been running things over in your head to the point they are a jumbled mess...You said you'd cooperate.

You get one opportunity to handle the aftermath.

Having to say "You know what I mean..." isn't very smart to interject into it.

[Joseph B.]

Mitchell, good posts on all...

My personal opinion/advice/process is to have a self defense lawyer on retainer and to immediately call him after reporting a shooting to the authorities. Do not give any statements whatsoever without the lawyer, do not sign any documents, do not answer any questions other than personal information and that I defended myself, immediately after “I refuse to answer any further questions without my lawyer” and STFU.

[Dropkick]

Where the fuck do people get the 24 hour shit? Seriously?

Where are they getting it? From who are they getting it? I want to know so I can blackjack them. I took Mas's class, and he doesn't tell people to put a hard time limit on it.

...

It's not enough that Mas said it. You should understand it before repeating it to pass it on.

I'm not a legal expert, (nor do I play one on TV,) so I stand corrected.

I should have just pointed to the source, because it's been bastardized all over internet since then:
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/combat-handguns/after-a-shooting-what-to-reveal/

My bad for quoting the bastardized version I found through google (and please don't sap me.)

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I'm not a legal expert, (nor do I play one on TV,) so I stand corrected.

I should have just pointed to the source, because it's been bastardized all over internet since then:
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/combat-handguns/after-a-shooting-what-to-reveal/

My bad for quoting the bastardized version I found through google (and please don't sap me.)

“Officer, you’ll have my full cooperation after I’ve spoken with counsel.” Stick to that like name, rank, and serial number. Experts tell us that it will be a minimum of 24 to perhaps 72 hours before you’ll be in any condition to deal with a full interrogation. And that interrogation (the more politically correct term “interview” is used now) should not take place until you’ve discussed it with your attorney in depth. Nor should it take place, in my opinion, without the attorney right there with you, and a legal stenographic service’s camcorder rolling to record it for your side, just in case.

(Same article as you cited.)

Don't worry. I won't blackjack you...You will merely be scourged, then the wounds douced with lime juice, salt & tequila.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

And for what it's worth, if I was going to be OK with a client being interviewed assuming he was not in custody, I'd like the following to be precursors:

1 Medical exam by client's doctor. I want to know if you have any issues with injuries the ER didn't pick up, or your blood pressure meds won't make you stupid.

2 My own recording and transscript of the interview.

3 You getting a full night's sleep and eating a good breakfast before the interview.

4 I'd like to see your bank records for the immediate 24 hours preceeding the incident, as your phone records for before and after the incident.

It's not that I don't trust you...it's that I don't trust anyone, and I want to know what the fuck you did, when you did it and how it impacts me (and, I guess, you...but it's really about me not looking like a moron...) and my interaction with the police.

Yes, I am lied to often, and no, I do not like it. I especially do not like it when the person I am representing does it to me, and thinks they want to use my services...but that they are in command.

I do not like being in the dark as it limits my effectiveness, and no matter what it is...I need to know. When they ask a question I do not know an answer for because you thought I would find out, didn't know it was important or "forgot" I get very pissy, and you end up making me happy by pulling out more money from the pocket.

I'll think of other things too depending on the situation.

[Dropkick]

New "Evidence"
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/05/26/video-after-a-real-shooting/
Massad himself says the "within 24 hours" at 2:15 and again at 3:27

Just clearing my name of sapping and scourging. I'm not saying it's right or anything.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

New "Evidence"
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2011/05/26/video-after-a-real-shooting/
Massad himself says the "within 24 hours" at 2:15 and again at 3:27

Just clearing my name of sapping and scourging. I'm not saying it's right or anything.

I'm going to email him on that.

[LeeC]

Wow, I did not do a very good job of searching Pistol-forum.com before starting this thread, or perhaps Google is doing something odd with how it is indexing the site. Either way, I now see other threads with a treasure trove of information to ponder. Seems like all these legal issues might be important enough to warrant their own top-level folder under "Software" maybe with some sticky references. I have a lot of reading to do and think about for now. Thanks everyone, and especially Mitchell.

"Law & self defense instruction" (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2029-Law-amp-self-defense-instruction) started by Mitchell, Esq.

"After an incident...STFU! And yes, that goes for lawyers involved as well! (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2228-After-an-incident-STFU!-And-yes-that-goes-for-lawyers-involved-as-well!) started by Mitchell, Esq. The videos referenced are worth the time to watch and helpful in deciding for yourself how much information you want to volunteer after an incident.