A discussion on optics durability

[ASH556]

Some recent events with a friend's optics on his duty rifle have led to some conversations between he and I regarding optics quality and durability. I know we have some members here with legit long-term hard-use experience with optics. Not to exclude anyone, but guys like SLG, SeanM, F2S, Wayne Dobbs, just to mention a few.

Let's lay out a usage criteria: Intermediate range (25-600 yds) on a 5.56 carbine. Not specifically for entry/room clearing, but may be "pressed into" that role if it comes down to it.

The Low-power-variable (1-4, 1-5, 1-6, 1-8) seems to be the new hotness for all this, and while it works in theory, I've seen and experienced enough failures to make me gunshy; even from the top names. Other options are ACOGs and Aimpoint + magnifier.

Some of the LPV's I've seen/heard of failing:
NF 1-4
Trijicon Accupower 1-4
Burris (anything)
Bushnell

Some others are disqualified in my mind due to design characteristics:
Vortex Razor 1-6, heavy and useless for CQB if illumination fails (battery dies)
Leupold Mark 6 1-6, useless for CQB if illumination fails (battery dies)
Anything with exposed, non-locking turrets

Let's assume that we're talking about individual sustainability. Not, "we're going on this mission, fully-supplied with new batteries, air support, etc" but more like "we might be out here awhile and/or riding around in a patrol vehicle for awhile and then be called upon to perform at a moment's notice."

Aimpoint + magnifier combo:
CONS:
pretty narrow FOV
No holdover mechanism, so magnification only gets you target ID, not increased range.
PROS:
Great battery life (years)
Great 1X speed
Magnifier removable when not needed

ACOG:
CONS:
Fixed magnification
Load-specific BDC
PROS:
No batteries needed. Manage the FO bloom and you're golden
Etched reticle...something to see and aim with regardless of light conditions

At this point in the game, I'm beginning to wonder again if something like the Leupold 1.5-5 might be a better bet in terms of weight and durability. With the right reticle, daylight bright illumination is not required. I'm also strongly considering going back to a TA11H ACOG.

Please share your thoughts and experiences.

[Luke]

You don't like any of the top offerings that are known to be very robust and of great quality but you want a $350 leupold?

[ASH556]

You don't like any of the top offerings that are known to be very robust and of great quality but you want a $350 leupold?

Yeah, maybe.

[PNWTO]

I don't think I would have any concerns using a NF NXS or USO LPV, or even Vortex's Razor 1-6x or the PST LPV and am planning on buying some combination of those four. However, it is hard to argue against a RDS w/magnifier for defensive/offensive/badshithappening purposes. I just happen to like the LPV thing, as well as the fact I like all of my long guns set up to take game animals. Of course, you can hunt with a RDS but for my uses and terrain I don't think it is optimal. T

I have never been a fan of the ACOG despite a semi-constant urge to possess an imitation of the rifle I was issued. I do think they are handy but for the price I feel I have better options.

I would be very interested to hear more about the failures you mentioned.

[ASH556]

I don't think I would have any concerns using a NF NXS or USO LPV, or even Vortex's Razor 1-6x or the PST LPV and am planning on buying some combination of those four. However, it is hard to argue against a RDS w/magnifier for defensive/offensive/badshithappening purposes. I just happen to like the LPV thing, as well as the fact I like all of my long guns set up to take game animals. Of course, you can hunt with a RDS but for my uses and terrain I don't think it is optimal. T

I have never been a fan of the ACOG despite a semi-constant urge to possess an imitation of the rifle I was issued. I do think they are handy but for the price I feel I have better options.

I would be very interested to hear more about the failures you mentioned.

NF - foreign debris (delamination?) inside scope...still out for review by NF.
Trijicon Accupower - foreign debris inside scope...found by Trijicon to be brass shavings from mis-installed turrets.
Burris - rotated reticles
Bushnell - inconsistent glass, repeatability

As I mentioned in my post, some of the other issues aren't so much failures as they are design flaws (in my opinion).

[Default.mp3]

Can the CQB issue with LPVOs be mitigated by an offset MRDS or BUIS, or perhaps a laser?

Is the BDC really that big an issue on the ACOG? Are there any downsides to simply figuring out your dope with each different load and keeping it on a card or memorizing it?

[ASH556]

Can the CQB issue with LPVOs be mitigated by an offset MRDS or BUIS, or perhaps a laser?
Yes, to one degree or another. And/or point shooting over the top of the scope turret depending on target size and distance. The Laser thing is something I'm actually considering. One of the little Crimson Trace Railmaster units.



Is the BDC really that big an issue on the ACOG? Are there any downsides to simply figuring out your dope with each different load and keeping it on a card or memorizing it?
I don't think it really is that big an issue...others seem to. I don't plan to shoot more than one or 2 loads (especially at the distances it would matter), so just learning the BDC dope for that load seems like a good idea to me.

[TR675]

In a recent biathlon I used an Aimpoint and magnifier with 6920 and was very competitive with the LPV guys shooting at ranges out to 4-500 yards on some fairly small targets.

Now, I've used an LPV exactly zero times ever, but given that performance, for practical use it's hard to imagine that I have a "need" (as opposed to want) for one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CS Tactical]

NF - foreign debris (delamination?) inside scope...still out for review by NF.
Trijicon Accupower - foreign debris inside scope...found by Trijicon to be brass shavings from mis-installed turrets.
Burris - rotated reticles
Bushnell - inconsistent glass, repeatability

As I mentioned in my post, some of the other issues aren't so much failures as they are design flaws (in my opinion).


Moving a metric ton of optics here, practically all brands and models have had a variation of those problems.
So on defensive guns I'd recommend a QD mount for the LPV or red dot and back up sights just in case.

[eb07]

I am going to go ahead and give my SWFA 1-6 a lot of props. I have ran through multiple carbine courses with it. It has seen some abuse and it has endured over 5K rounds of 308 on my SCAR and is still working great.

The ADM delta qd mount has held zero very well.

I cannot say enough good things about it.


https://s24.postimg.org/j96y4ppch/IMG_6406.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/j96y4ppch/)

[Default.mp3]

One of the little Crimson Trace Railmaster units.One of my friends tried that. Switchology was meh, thing wouldn't hold zero worth a damn. Honestly, I think it's mildly ridiculous that the cheapest quality visible pointer for a carbine is probably the Steiner DBAL-I2.

[John Hearne]

Regarding cons for the ACOG, they are not a parallax free optic.

I've been running a PRO with their magnifier and like it so far but I really haven't wrung it out yet.

[SecondsCount]

I'm really surprised to see an issue with Nightforce. Makes me wonder if someone is over torquing their scope.

Also curious what the Burris scopes are mounted on and which versions as my personal experience has been good. Myself and a friend bought Burris TAC30's in 1-4x about 6 years ago and have had zero issues with them, shot them in classes and 3-gun, and general shooting fun. Probably 15K rounds between the two of them that are mounted on 16" midlength carbines with Larue LT-104 mounts. I also had a 3-9x TAC30 on an LR308 and had zero issues. I am in no way sticking up for them as a top tier product but they work for me.

The well used Vortex 1-4x Razor on my current AR has served me well, and it has a couple scars.

[John Hearne]

Just speculating but I'm thinking that a lot of abuse depends on the blow the scope is receiving. Large amounts of 5.56 don't impress me because there isn't much force involved. From the internet rumors, the test platform for durability testing is the MK17 (SCAR in 7.62x51). If a scope is still working after 5000 rounds on the SCAR, I'd consider it durable. There is also info from Battlefield Las Vegas that really praises the Aimpoint PRO and certain ACOGs.

[karmapolice]

I think my rifle rack could have been the culprit but still nonetheless disheartening and disappointing. However the response from NF is more than a excellent and it's already at ththe factory with no questions asked. The rack is a setina and there was space/clearance but it gets a lot of vibration and it would have been localized on the objective lens. Also mount was torqued via Larue specifications with a craftsman torque wrench. Also of note I'm the sexy no owner and don't know what the previous owner did with it but it was in good condition minus normal surface nicks.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3795/32197424534_a654b6183e_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/691/33042861605_8ffc565215_b.jpg

Oh and some awesome dude loaned me this upper to use while the NF is getting repaired because I had a lapse in having a spare optic/upper for my other lower. I'm a failure.....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/676/32809043441_caf91fee4f_b.jpg

[farscott]

I'm really surprised to see an issue with Nightforce. Makes me wonder if someone is over torquing their scope.

Also curious what the Burris scopes are mounted on and which versions as my personal experience has been good. Myself and a friend bought Burris TAC30's in 1-4x about 6 years ago and have had zero issues with them, shot them in classes and 3-gun, and general shooting fun. Probably 15K rounds between the two of them that are mounted on 16" midlength carbines with Larue LT-104 mounts. I also had a 3-9x TAC30 on an LR308 and had zero issues. I am in no way sticking up for them as a top tier product but they work for me.

The well used Vortex 1-4x Razor on my current AR has served me well, and it has a couple scars.

Based on a discussion I had with a Leupold technical rep a few years ago, a large percentage of scope failures are related to installation issues. And most of the installation issues are caused by too much torque on fasteners.

My personal experience with optics has been mixed. I have lost a few reticles on Burris scopes that were mounted on a Super Redhawk, stripped an elevation turret on a Leupold (my fault), and lost adjustment on another Leupold that was mounted on the aforementioned Super Redhawk. How a company responds to a damaged scope is important to me, and Leupold has been really good for me. Burris, not so much.



[Unobtanium]

Moving a metric ton of optics here, practically all brands and models have had a variation of those problems.
So on defensive guns I'd recommend a QD mount for the LPV or red dot and back up sights just in case.

I've seen plenty of issues with qd mounts. I think the qd mount is a higher failure risk than a quality LPV.

[Unobtanium]

I think my rifle rack could have been the culprit but still nonetheless disheartening and disappointing. However the response from NF is more than a excellent and it's already at ththe factory with no questions asked. The rack is a setina and there was space/clearance but it gets a lot of vibration and it would have been localized on the objective lens. Also mount was torqued via Larue specifications with a craftsman torque wrench. Also of note I'm the sexy no owner and don't know what the previous owner did with it but it was in good condition minus normal surface nicks.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3795/32197424534_a654b6183e_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/691/33042861605_8ffc565215_b.jpg

Oh and some awesome dude loaned me this upper to use while the NF is getting repaired because I had a lapse in having a spare optic/upper for my other lower. I'm a failure.....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/676/32809043441_caf91fee4f_b.jpg

Very recessed front lens. Likely crushed it with the LaRue.

[CS Tactical]

I've seen plenty of issues with qd mounts. I think the qd mount is a higher failure risk than a quality LPV.

Which QD Mounts? We've had no reported issues with ADM, Bobro or GDI. I know of problems with some other mounts we have not listed though.

[Unobtanium]

I'm really surprised to see an issue with Nightforce. Makes me wonder if someone is over torquing their scope.

Also curious what the Burris scopes are mounted on and which versions as my personal experience has been good. Myself and a friend bought Burris TAC30's in 1-4x about 6 years ago and have had zero issues with them, shot them in classes and 3-gun, and general shooting fun. Probably 15K rounds between the two of them that are mounted on 16" midlength carbines with Larue LT-104 mounts. I also had a 3-9x TAC30 on an LR308 and had zero issues. I am in no way sticking up for them as a top tier product but they work for me.

The well used Vortex 1-4x Razor on my current AR has served me well, and it has a couple scars.

Nightforce got a bunch of bad coatings on their glass a while back. I thought they had caught all of it and pulled it off the line. Something always sneaks through I guess.

[CS Tactical]

Based on a discussion I had with a Leupold technical rep a few years ago, a large percentage of scope failures are related to installation issues. And most of the installation issues are caused by too much torque on fasteners.

My personal experience with optics has been mixed. I have lost a few reticles on Burris scopes that were mounted on a Super Redhawk, stripped an elevation turret on a Leupold (my fault), and lost adjustment on another Leupold that was mounted on the aforementioned Super Redhawk. How a company responds to a damaged scope is important to me, and Leupold has been really good for me. Burris, not so much.




Burris is improving IMO, they needed to due to their competition.

[karmapolice]

Very recessed front lens. Likely crushed it with the LaRue.

Lens isn't actually broken, It's the coating that's delaminated.

[El Cid]

Buy once, cry once. It's more expensive than most but the Swarovski Z6i 1-6 is light, robust, a true 1x, and truly daytime bright. One of the few optics that met all my criteria. I'm not easy on my gear and the two I have put up with multiple classes, matches, etc. One is on a .308 and hasn't had any issues. The glass is so clear you'll think they forgot to install it. The field of view is incredible and allows very quick transitions when using it up close. The BRT reticle allows ranging to 600. If I could only have one optic, it would be this one.

[Default.mp3]

Buy once, cry once. It's more expensive than most but the Swarovski Z6i 1-6 is light, robust, a true 1x, and truly daytime bright. One of the few optics that met all my criteria. I'm not easy on my gear and the two I have put up with multiple classes, matches, etc. One is on a .308 and hasn't had any issues. The glass is so clear you'll think they forgot to install it. The field of view is incredible and allows very quick transitions when using it up close. The BRT reticle allows ranging to 600. If I could only have one optic, it would be this one.True 1x seems like a myth with LPVO. My Kahles is probably closer to 1x than an MRO, but it's still not true 1x. Not that it really matters, but something to note.

Plus, if we're considering Swarovski for beyond hunting, and into duty grade, why not the Z8i, amirite. A bit more mag, and still sub-20 oz. by a fair bit (18.3 oz., according to the spec sheet).

[El Cid]

True 1x seems like a myth with LPVO. My Kahles is probably closer to 1x than an MRO, but it's still not true 1x. Not that it really matters, but something to note.

Plus, if we're considering Swarovski for beyond hunting, and into duty grade, why not the Z8i, amirite. A bit more mag, and still sub-20 oz. by a fair bit (18.3 oz., according to the spec sheet).

Agreed - it's not so forgiving as a red dot when in unconventional positions but I could live with it and never complain.

As for the Z8, I've been trying to find any reviews or feedback but it seems they haven't hit the street yet. When I bought my Z6's years ago there was no forecast for a Z8. I was actually holding out for the S&B 1-8 as it was supposed to have a true 1x setting. The original Short Dot was a 1.1 and I couldn't stand it. It kept getting delayed so I started looking at other options and found the Z6. I don't think I've ever been happier with a major purchase.

[MSparks909]

I've been pleased with my Steiner T5xi 1-5 with the 5.56 BDC reticle. Clean and un-cluttered unlike many other BDCs on the market. Mil/mil scope, daylight visible red dot (think Vortex Razor bright), off positions between each brightness setting, best 1x I've shot through. Included cat tail and a lifetime warranty. The glass clarity is excellent for the price point. If you shop around you can find it for ~$1100. I have it mounted on my 16" KAC.

If you need a bombproof LPV...save up and get an Elcan 1-4x.

[ASH556]

The problem I see with the Swaro is the same as the Vortex: with no illumination, you have only a very fine crosshairs to aim with. Do I misunderstand something?

[ASH556]

If you need a bombproof LPV...save up and get an Elcan 1-4x.

A good friend who was issued one told me they broke several. Have they gotten better?

[Default.mp3]

If you need a bombproof LPV...save up and get an Elcan 1-4x.There's a lot of folks that hate the Elcan, due to its ARMS mount, external adjustments (which leads to wandering zeros), etc.

[El Cid]

The problem I see with the Swaro is the same as the Vortex: with no illumination, you have only a very fine crosshairs to aim with. Do I misunderstand something?

I have used mine without and find it more than adequate. It's much easier to see than the Short Dot reticle for me.

[voodoo_man]

As far as cheapy optics go, anything hobby brand is out right away, primary arms and the like shouldn't even be considered.

If you want a cheap Leupold which will take a beating check out the vxr patrol

http://www.vdmsr.com/2013/10/leupold-vx-r-patrol-125-4x20-firedot-on.html

It's not true 1x but I can say without hesitation that it doesn't really matter if you are running 4x all the time.

I like trijicon and haven't experienced the issues people talk about the accupower. But I wouldn't recommend the one I have (green mil sq) for duty use.

[shane45]

So if the dot/battery dies in a LPV the reticle becomes useless? Indeed all my LPV's are in QD.

[ASH556]

So if the dot/battery dies in a LPV the reticle becomes useless? Indeed all my LPV's are in QD.

Not necessarily, it depends on the reticle design. Something like the Nightforce FC2, FC3G, or the Trijicon Accupower's segmented circle are bold enough to use just fine without illumination. I don't have the illumination turned on in the video below (though I did forget to check power setting and pulled up on the first target at 4x,hence the delay.)

https://youtu.be/YpNR0vM_9y4

[Crews]

I've got a Nightforce 1-4 in a Bobro mount atop my 12.5" 6.8 AR. It has never seen combat or duty use, as I'm just a regular Joe Bubba who hunts a lot. However, it does get used quite a bit. Spends a lot of time getting beat up riding around on ATVs, getting dropped, etc. Never had a single problem out of it. Illumination is meh.... but with the reticle design it's not needed and it's plenty good enough for a precise shot in low light, or popping a hog after dark in a spotlight.

It's a hammer, and I'd have no problems putting my faith in it for more critical applications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SteveB]

As far as recoil impulses go, I have a Swaro Z6i 1-6X that's been mounted on a .375 H&H, a .404 Jeffery and a couple of 9.3X62's. Admittedly, the .375 and .404 were low round counts, but I've shot a lot of 9.3 with this scope with no issues.

[shane45]

ASH, that was actually the point I was making :D The one LPV I have that I would have to turn mag up to make the reticle usable is my SR8C. Below 3X you need the illum.

[CS Tactical]

Buy once, cry once. It's more expensive than most but the Swarovski Z6i 1-6 is light, robust, a true 1x, and truly daytime bright. One of the few optics that met all my criteria. I'm not easy on my gear and the two I have put up with multiple classes, matches, etc. One is on a .308 and hasn't had any issues. The glass is so clear you'll think they forgot to install it. The field of view is incredible and allows very quick transitions when using it up close. The BRT reticle allows ranging to 600. If I could only have one optic, it would be this one.

Our 3 gun shooter uses both the Swaro and Kahles 1-6 (Swaro is the parent company of Kahles just an FYI) which have minor differences between them but are similar enough that it comes down to preference. He slightly prefers the Kahles reticle and illumination slightly over the Swaro, but those are still the best LPV's out there IMO.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU1ijkZ4df0


True 1x seems like a myth with LPVO. My Kahles is probably closer to 1x than an MRO, but it's still not true 1x. Not that it really matters, but something to note.

Plus, if we're considering Swarovski for beyond hunting, and into duty grade, why not the Z8i, amirite. A bit more mag, and still sub-20 oz. by a fair bit (18.3 oz., according to the spec sheet).

I wish we had our hands the Z8i 1-8 to compare to the above Swaro and Kahles right now, but will eventually :) With a 30mm tube, I have a hard time believing it will be better than the Minox 1-8 which is 34mm, a dual focal plane scope which has the red dot located on the second focal plane and stays the same size while the reticle is first focal plane. The eye box is really good for a 1-8 but I still think it's better on the Kahles or Swaro 1-6. Unfortunately it is slightly heavy at 24.5 oz vs. 16.9 oz for the Kahles and almost $1,000 more than the Kahles.


Agreed - it's not so forgiving as a red dot when in unconventional positions but I could live with it and never complain.

As for the Z8, I've been trying to find any reviews or feedback but it seems they haven't hit the street yet. When I bought my Z6's years ago there was no forecast for a Z8. I was actually holding out for the S&B 1-8 as it was supposed to have a true 1x setting. The original Short Dot was a 1.1 and I couldn't stand it. It kept getting delayed so I started looking at other options and found the Z6. I don't think I've ever been happier with a major purchase.


A good friend who was issued one told me they broke several. Have they gotten better?


There's a lot of folks that hate the Elcan, due to its ARMS mount, external adjustments (which leads to wandering zeros), etc.

We received the newest Elcan's a few days ago, they have gone through many iterations and beyond the Arms mount hate and the eye relief I think they are solid options.
We have a lot of LEO and Military guys that have used them in the field on issued guns and have bought their own. After that incident that happened in Dallas last Summer, a couple Officers in that area called up and wanted Elcan 1-4's for their patrol rifles which didn't have any magnification previously.


So if the dot/battery dies in a LPV the reticle becomes useless? Indeed all my LPV's are in QD.

No, but some have more usable reticles when the illumination is off than others.

[shane45]

Apparently my sarcasm prowess was way off this week!

[nalesq]

As far as cheapy optics go, anything hobby brand is out right away, primary arms and the like shouldn't even be considered.

If you want a cheap Leupold which will take a beating check out the vxr patrol

http://www.vdmsr.com/2013/10/leupold-vx-r-patrol-125-4x20-firedot-on.html

It's not true 1x but I can say without hesitation that it doesn't really matter if you are running 4x all the time.

I like trijicon and haven't experienced the issues people talk about the accupower. But I wouldn't recommend the one I have (green mil sq) for duty use.

I want to like the VX-R, but why the hell did Leupold have to make it with exposed adjustment turrets? I mean, who on earth is going to make adjustments on the fly at "patrol carbine" distances?

[voodoo_man]

I want to like the VX-R, but why the hell did Leupold have to make it with exposed adjustment turrets? I mean, who on earth is going to make adjustments on the fly at "patrol carbine" distances?

I agree.

My suggestion has always been to mark it or tape it.

It is a good optic though, and Leupold does offer capped turrets in other more expensive optics.

Now days, a good 1-6 or 1-8 is the money...

[SLG]

As I'm sure most of you know, I am a NF fan. Pretending that they "have issues" is simply silly. No company produces perfection every time all the time, but NF scopes are as tough as they come, as often or more often than anyone else. They certainly don't need illum to work well, though I leave it on so that when I go indoors I have it available.

That said, I have lately been using my Aimpoint 3X on my CQB carbine (11.5") in conjunction with its T2. Not a bad set up, even all these years later. Not the absolute lightest, not the best mag range, no holdovers or useful features, but for a room distance gun, it allows you to PID at distance much better than with no magnification. Plus, easy to ditch if I really don't want it.

[Mike C]

I'm really surprised to hear no love for the ACOG. I get fixed power is a bit out of date but I still don't see the maturity that I would be comfortable with when it comes to a lot of LPV, (not all though).

I've used an ACOG for a long ass time both in and out of combat. They are tough as shit. No they can't be run as fast as the new hotness LPVs on 1x but they can be run pretty damn proficiently even at close ranges with practice.

If you're running a 14.5-16" carbine I still think they are a relevant choice. I never cared for the 4x35 but the 3x30 ad the 3.5x35 are extremely usable in a wide variety of conditions. With a QD mount and a BUIS like the KAC 2-6 you'd be in pretty good shape.

This is not to say that there aren't some kick ass LPV's because there are and some have been mentioned already but if you are looking for something rugged and reliable that will work in a myriad of conditions I'd be looking more at an ACOG. Proven track record solid performance, etched reticle, lumicent tube, tritium, blah blah blah.

Edited to add if you're not stretching from 3-600m just get a red dot. I completely agree with SLG. Aimpoints are hard to beat in the red dot category especially when you combine them with a magnifier. Inside of 300/350 it's all you'd ever need.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MSparks909]

Anyone have trigger time behind the new 1-8 Triji Accupower? I've read some reviews and it looks to be a well thought out LPV.

I'm waiting for NF to get off their rear and come out with a new 1-6 or maybe a 1-8.

[ST911]

If you want a cheap Leupold which will take a beating check out the vxr patrol
http://www.vdmsr.com/2013/10/leupold-vx-r-patrol-125-4x20-firedot-on.html



I want to like the VX-R, but why the hell did Leupold have to make it with exposed adjustment turrets? I mean, who on earth is going to make adjustments on the fly at "patrol carbine" distances?


I agree.

My suggestion has always been to mark it or tape it.

I have a 3-9x40 VX-R Patrol on a working gun. The lack of zero stop and rotation indicator on the turrets is annoying, and mine are taped. Battery life could use a boost. Otherwise, it's a lot of scope for the money and I am happy with mine.

[BobM]

I have a 3-9x40 VX-R Patrol on a working gun. The lack of zero stop and rotation indicator on the turrets is annoying, and mine are taped. Battery life could use a boost. Otherwise, it's a lot of scope for the money and I am happy with mine.
I have the 3-9 Patrol on a MP10 and I don't like how easily the turrets move. I bought a VX/R Hog Hunter 1-4 over another Patrol model as the Hog Hunter turrets are capped.

[SkiDevil]

Optics Durability :

1. Aimpoint

2. ACOG

3. Fixed power scope

3. Low Power Variable scope

My thoughts and experience in using optics on a rifle for target shooting, hunting, and recreation run along the lines of the above list from most reliable and durable to least. I think cost is an important factor as well. Because generally speaking a higher quality optic is not cheap or inexpensive.

If someone asked what I thought was the most durable and reliable low power variable optic with a record of actual use in the field under arduous conditions, then my response would be the Schmidt and Bender 1-4 Short Dot.

The only problem is that it is too costly and can be difficult to find at times.

So, I think a great alternative is the Nightforce NXS in 1-4 with a Quick relase mount, ADM, BROBO, etc.

The ACOG TA-11 is another great low power option too.

I think it all comes down to what is your intended use, range, type of rifle, and budget.

I've tried and owned many types of optics over the course of shooting and hunting in the last 30 plus years. I still think that one of the most practical and durable scopes is a quality fixed 4X power scope. It's funny that I ended up with a Short Dot 1-4 on my favorite rifle and almost exclusively shoot with the scope set to 4X with the illumination off.

For someone looking to try-out a low-cost LPV the Vortex 1-4 PST is a nice scope for the money. The Leupold variable VX1 and II, and III 1-4 and 1.5X5 are decent too.

I used a Leupold fixed FX II 2.5X20 for a while on an ADM mount and it proved to be a very rugged, fast, and cost effective optic.

Finally, Iwould say though that for a close range defensive application or even hunting dangerous animals nothing is faster or more durable an optic than one of the variations of the AIMPOINT.

[shane45]

The problem for a lot of people with Acogs is aging eyes. No adjustable diopter so its either clear for you or it isn't. I have long been a fan of LPV and I currently run a S&B short dot 1-4 on my AR. I fiddled with it in the past but never gave it a solid run but I would really like to try a TA11 with a T1 at 1 O'clock to run against my Short Dot. But I have a number of 308 Carbines as well and that's where I start down the 1-6 and 1-8 categories. I have played with a lot of glass. And as usual with optics, there is always a compromise. It just boils down to your own pursuits and what things your willing to give up and what things you wont.

[Beat Trash]

I'm curious to see who durable the new Trijicon 1-8 accupower will be.

I'd also like to see Nightforce to come out with a 1-6 and/or a 1-8 option.

[voodoo_man]

I'm curious to see who durable the new Trijicon 1-8 accupower will be.

I'd also like to see Nightforce to come out with a 1-6 and/or a 1-8 option.

As am I.

I may get the new trijicon 1-8 after the two 1-4s I have get reviewed.

I'm a fan of new developments which push the standard in our favor.

[Trigger]

I ran few carbine classes with LPVs (Burris MTAC+Larue mount) and a 308 battlerifle class with a Leupold DAGR setup (Aimpoint T-1, Larue Ring mount, Leupold 3-18 Mark 6, Leupold Mark 6 Mount).

I am really a fan of the 1-4x LPV on a 5.56 carbine. A true 1x is wonderful inside 100 yards, and the FOV is better than the T-1 due to the optics. I have had zero mechanical or other issues with the two Burris MTACs that I own over the last 3 years of use/abuse. The MTAC ballistic reticle was handy for those longer shots out to 400. I have not used the MTAC at targets beyond 400.

I really liked the DAGR setup on the 308, with one exception. The T-1 was very fast and light inside 50 yards. The Leupold 3-18 was perfect from 50-800+yards. The optic is durable, turrets low-profile, compact size (for its magnification) with excellent optical performance. Mine has the Tremor3 reticle, so hold-offs for wind and elevation are easy. I highly recommend the 3-18 Mark 6. Downside? No cheek weld when using the T-1 mounted on top of the scope. You elevate your head about 2 inches to see through the T-1, and your cheek loses contact with the buttstock. Not ideal for consistency and accuracy.

One more disadvantage: the weight. Start with a 9+ pound Sig 716, add 2 pounds of scope, T-1, mounts, and a full 20/25-round 308 magazine. Uggh. After a week of class, my shoulder sockets were abused. Sore muscles go away, but the ligament pain took a month to heal. Lesson learned was I needed to add some shoulder specific exercises to my list to prepare for the class. Next time.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm really late to this thread, but I do have a couple things to add.

It's hard to argue with Aimpoint, but I have personally seen two T1s crap out. One got flooded during heavy rain, and the other just stopped working. Aimpoint customer service was helpful, but slow. They sent the wrong replacement optic in one case, resulting in a total of 3 months wait to receive the new T1. I'm still an Aimpoint fan, but there are some other good options IMO, such as the Trijicon MRO. I haven't abused my two MROs enough to wholeheartedly endorse them, but so far I'm impressed.

My all-time favorite hard use optic is the later builds of the Elcan Spectre DR 1-4x. (Yes, I know there are some strong negative opinions out there about the Elcan, particularly the early builds). I have beat the crap out of mine, including a fall onto rocks straight onto the optic. Based on this sample size of one, it's very tough. I have yet to find anything that offers a better combination of true 1x, daylight bright red dot, and magnified optics. I also like the etched reticle that works without batteries. The glass is comparable to Swaro glass. The Elcan has an f-stop of 0.6 at 1x and 3.2 at 4x, compared to f2.2 and 2.8 for the S-B Short Dot at 1x and 4x respectively, and f3.0 for the ACOG TA-11. I've found this to be really helpful in low light. I can see better in low light through the Elcan at 1x than I can with my naked eye.

[shane45]

I LOVED the sight picture of my Specter and the ability to flick from 1 to 4. I HATED the mount. That and it was a fairly heavy concentration of weight that I found didn't balance to well on AR's but was fine on my SCAR. If it had ADM or Bobro style mounting, id go right back to it.

[El Cid]

ASH, that was actually the point I was making :D The one LPV I have that I would have to turn mag up to make the reticle usable is my SR8C. Below 3X you need the illum.

This photo doesn't quite do it justice. But the lines are easily thick enough to use on 1x without illumination if you had to.

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/P1010090.jpg

[CS Tactical]

I'm really late to this thread, but I do have a couple things to add.

It's hard to argue with Aimpoint, but I have personally seen two T1s crap out. One got flooded during heavy rain, and the other just stopped working. Aimpoint customer service was helpful, but slow. They sent the wrong replacement optic in one case, resulting in a total of 3 months wait to receive the new T1. I'm still an Aimpoint fan, but there are some other good options IMO, such as the Trijicon MRO. I haven't abused my two MROs enough to wholeheartedly endorse them, but so far I'm impressed.

My all-time favorite hard use optic is the later builds of the Elcan Spectre DR 1-4x. (Yes, I know there are some strong negative opinions out there about the Elcan, particularly the early builds). I have beat the crap out of mine, including a fall onto rocks straight onto the optic. Based on this sample size of one, it's very tough. I have yet to find anything that offers a better combination of true 1x, daylight bright red dot, and magnified optics. I also like the etched reticle that works without batteries. The glass is comparable to Swaro glass. The Elcan has an f-stop of 0.6 at 1x and 3.2 at 4x, compared to f2.2 and 2.8 for the S-B Short Dot at 1x and 4x respectively, and f3.0 for the ACOG TA-11. I've found this to be really helpful in low light. I can see better in low light through the Elcan at 1x than I can with my naked eye.


We just received the newest version of the Elcan, they just seem to work really well for a defensive application IMO

https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/16683831_1453693754673133_5315336333098342243_n.jp g?oh=c2d872e456f85f4ffd2194e0fe8e41dc&oe=5939A720

[Default.mp3]

Oh man, I just thought of an alternative to Aimpoint and magnifier. Y'all remember this?
https://www.leupold.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/LEU_DEVO_Angle_rear-530x311.png

Pricier than the Aimpoint 6x magnifier, and can't be quickly removed, but does have a reticle. Really haven't seen too much about it these days, guess it flopped.

[Sigfan26]

Oh man, I just thought of an alternative to Aimpoint and magnifier. Y'all remember this?
https://www.leupold.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/LEU_DEVO_Angle_rear-530x311.png

Pricier than the Aimpoint 6x magnifier, and can't be quickly removed, but does have a reticle. Really haven't seen to much about it these days, guess it flopped.

It's an awesome system (I messed with a DEVO/LCO combo on a rifle). I would absolutely love to have one... But the price point is kinda out there (not too bad when compared with many high end LPV's I guess). It hasn't been very aggressively marketed either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MSparks909]

We just received the newest version of the Elcan, they just seem to work really well for a defensive application IMO

https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/16683831_1453693754673133_5315336333098342243_n.jp g?oh=c2d872e456f85f4ffd2194e0fe8e41dc&oe=5939A720

I really want an Elcan now..ugh.

[CS Tactical]

I really want an Elcan now..ugh.

I can make that happen...