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View Full Version : What is your red line for reloading speed?



LittleLebowski
02-18-2017, 08:21 PM
At what point do you justify a faster press? Speed? Pain due to injuries (faster press = less time pulling the handle)? Do you have a mathematical formula of some sort, justifying how it's more economical to have faster press because more ammo, or more family time, etc?

busdriver
02-18-2017, 08:48 PM
Is reloading getting in the way of your life? Do you ever find that you don't have the ammo you need to shoot? Ever consider not shooting because it would mean having to pull that handle yet again?

Peally
02-18-2017, 08:49 PM
Nope, just depends on how much I value the additional speed over the cost. I'm on a 650 so an upgrade to a 1050 would require large time or injury savings.

LittleLebowski
02-18-2017, 09:03 PM
Is reloading getting in the way of your life? Do you ever find that you don't have the ammo you need to shoot? Ever consider not shooting because it would mean having to pull that handle yet again?

No. No. No.

Good questions.

CCT125US
02-18-2017, 09:16 PM
I have loaded on a D650 for about 25 years. This past year, if I would have skipped a range session or two I could have spent the time behind the press. I shot factory 9mm and several cases of rim fire. With the savings I could have easily put that towards a case feeder and Mr. Bullet feeder. I still average 500 or so a month center fire, and probably match that in rim fire. Certainly a drop from the 1K round weeks I had for months on end, several years back. Family and job responsibilities just don't allow it currently, so it makes it hard to justify. Add in dropping ammo, and component cost and it makes it even harder to justify. I think my current strategy of just setting the time aside is key. I just worked up a sub sonic load that I am pretty happy with, and plan to take a couple hours tomorrow and crank out a case of it. Besides, my 8 year old minion was helping me yesterday, so he can earn his keep by stuffing tubes.

ranger
02-18-2017, 09:26 PM
I have been reloading for decades. I have all the gear for loading pistol-rifle-shotgun. I just left the reloading room prep'ing ammo to shoot tomorrow. I am wondering more and more if it is worth reloading because ammo prices are down.

Example - I can but Hornady 6.5CM with a 140 BTHP for $1.00 per round on sale - just got in 200. Think about that - how much does it cost to buy components much less my time. I can get Hornady 6.5G 123 AMAX or 123 SST for about $20+ per box. I can regularly get Federal GMM 168 or 175 308 for about $1 per round (PSA was just running that deal). I hate rifle case prep - especially crimped 556. I can buy factory 6.5G, 6.5CM, 6.8 and then sell the brass for that matter. Hunting ammo - I buy factory. It probably makes sense if you shoot a more exotic caliber that is not reasonably priced.

Shotgun - I quit reloading shotgun years ago for clay targets - bought the Dove and Quail loads when they had the annual bird hunting sales. When lead shot went up in price - just lost interest in shotgun reloading. I was a very active clays shooter.

Pistol - I still load 9mm, 40, and 45 and it makes financial sense - but again, prices have really come down so it gets closer to just buying it.

Hambo
02-19-2017, 06:47 AM
Do you have a mathematical formula of some sort,

Yes, I do. My two 550s are paid for.
The cost of a 1050 is close to $2K, so Y=2000. http://www.dillonprecision.com/super-1050_8_1_23877.html
Simple pine box is $1200 http://trappistcaskets.com/Simple_Rectangle
Federal HST-$0.42 http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/50-round-box-9mm-luger-p-federal-hst-147-grain-hollow-point-le-ammo-p9hst4-high-pres

So here's the formula:
Hambo current machine cost X=0.
Hambo potential machine cost y=2000
Box and 1 HST z=1200.42
Because Y>Z, the probability of Mrs. Hambo preferring Hambo use Z is 1.

LittleLebowski
02-19-2017, 08:21 AM
Yes, I do. My two 550s are paid for.
The cost of a 1050 is close to $2K, so Y=2000. http://www.dillonprecision.com/super-1050_8_1_23877.html
Simple pine box is $1200 http://trappistcaskets.com/Simple_Rectangle
Federal HST-$0.42 http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/50-round-box-9mm-luger-p-federal-hst-147-grain-hollow-point-le-ammo-p9hst4-high-pres

So here's the formula:
Hambo current machine cost X=0.
Hambo potential machine cost y=2000
Box and 1 HST z=1200.42
Because Y>Z, the probability of Mrs. Hambo preferring Hambo use Z is 1.

That was fucking funny :D

Luke
02-19-2017, 08:39 AM
I have a 650 and hate it. Came extremely close to buying a 1050 a couple weeks ago. I've only done one timed run and I was goin balls to the wall at 100 rounds in 4 minutes 32 seconds.

LittleLebowski
02-19-2017, 08:40 AM
I have a 650 and hate it. Came extremely close to buying a 1050 a couple weeks ago. I've only done one timed run and I was goin balls to the wall at 100 rounds in 4 minutes 32 seconds.

Why do you hate it?

dsa
02-19-2017, 08:51 AM
No formula for me. I went to my buddies place to pick him up to go to a match. He was finishing up loading ammo for the match on his 650 w/ a Mr Bullet Feeder. I watched him load 100 rounds in 4 minutes while we were talking smack about who was going to kick who's butt at the match. At the time I had a 550 it took me about 15min to load 100rds on the 550. The Monday after the match I went down to the local Dillon dealer and picked up a 650 and a Mr Bullet Feeder, been happy ever since.

busdriver
02-19-2017, 08:51 AM
No. No. No.

Good questions.
The last question is what got me. When I found myself considering skipping practice to avoid loading, I upgraded. In retrospect, I had been avoiding it for awhile, letting the stockpile shrink to the point where I'd load the night prior to needing it.

Hambo
02-19-2017, 09:04 AM
The last question is what got me.

Your question 2 is why I'm seriously considering selling my 550s and getting a 650. I let my ammo stock dwindle to nothing because I didn't want to pull the handle. Not wanting to stop practicing is what made me man up and start loading.

*And Mrs. Hambo really wouldn't box me up and ship me out over a 650. She has actually suggested various tools that helped me speed up the process. :D

jeep45238
02-19-2017, 09:53 AM
I get it running like a sewing machine, and same for my Mr. Bulletfeeder for 1 bullet type and leave it alone. I don't sit down for hours at a time on the press, but I do that once a quarter or two to cast bullets and coat them.

The faster I can get ammo out of the press safely, without scrap/fixing jams, the less time I spend doing it. While I enjoy it, there's other things I'd rather spend my time doing in life. The less time I reload for the same quantity of ammo, the more time I spend doing those things.

I would love a 1050, but can't justify it right now. In a few years when we've made some serious fiscal progress and I'm out of school I'd like to upgrade to an automated 1050, and spend my time filling primer tubes and powder/bullet/brass hoppers. I might be able to fiscally justify buying bullets by then too. Same reason as above.

GuanoLoco
02-19-2017, 10:11 AM
Quantity of ammo I desire and can afford to load/shoot = HIGH
Damage to elbows from excessive loading/dry fire/live fire/training/matches = HIGH
Value of my time (self-valued, abilty to generate income) relative to cost of equipment = HIGH
Desire to spend time on things like dry fire to get more better cheaper vs. loading = HIGH
Desire to generate / stockpile ammo for live fire practice, matches, training classes = HIGH
Interest in sticking with hobbies for 10 years+/- or more (life but perhaps with cycles) = HIGH
Ability to expend (paced out over a few years...) without compromising my financial health or marriage = HIGH

Answer = full baller reloading equipment. 1050, bullet feeder, RF100 primer filler, cement mixer, dehydrator and all the required accessories and upgrades. For me it's all about the time and consumables, not the fixed equipment. The fixed equipment ties up capital, but also has a reasonable resale value.

I also occasionally enjoy having a friend over for a reloading party. This is effective for productivity but consumes one of my most valuable and scarce resources - time.

Speed = currently about 1500 9mm/hour, SUSTAINED. Includes loading primer tubes, doesn't include initial pres setup/calibration or case gauging loaded ammo. Always working on maximizing speed but minimizing failures/jams. There is a delicate balance here. Reloading for more than a couple hours is exhausting, I try to stick to < 2 hour windows when solo, which means about 1000+ rounds soup to nuts (inluding QC, case gauging, cleanup).

I think a 650/Mr. Bullet Feeder would suffice for most.

busdriver
02-19-2017, 10:18 AM
I'm seriously considering selling my 550s and getting a 650. *And Mrs. Hambo really wouldn't box me up and ship me out over a 650. She has actually suggested various tools that helped me speed up the process. :D
I kept trying to figure out how much more ammo I would really get for my time upgrading to a 650 vs my 550. The 1050 swage station and an autodrive kept calling me, so I went full retard.

mmc45414
02-19-2017, 10:29 AM
Always a lively topic :)

Another part of the "formula" is how much money do you HAVE. Back when I started doing it I didn't have hardly any money, so it was a way for me to shoot more. Now it is a habit, and I have come to enjoy it, mostly cause of the cool tools, so it is not really a formula. And most people realistically would not use the time spent reloading to go earn money. I also contend most people to not use range time to reload. I mean really, who leaves work to go home and reload? Perhaps folks with disposable cash and things like kids making spare time more finite and maybe a profession like a lawyer who could log a couple billable hours instead of reloading actually could actually work out some math.

But like Hambo said, I already have the tools. Though I did recently transition to a 650 and have found myself scheming how/why I might get a second one, though I will readily admit that is not a logical argument. It just seems like I will have things all set up for a long run of something and then want to interject something else. Been mostly shooting 9x19, but shot a 1911 for the first time in a while last week. I could get another 1911 in nine, but I could get a second 650 for less.

I also load 12g and 20g and that is a tougher financial argument than 9x19, but I load 3/4-#9 in both, something that is not commercially available, can't plug that into a formula.

mmc45414
02-19-2017, 10:38 AM
Your question 2 is why I'm seriously considering selling my 550s and getting a 650.

I was a 550 zealot for decades, figured it would not be that much faster, and I had EVERYTHING all set up for 550, so I bought a second one. Then they came out with the 550 case feeder so I got one, Then I started shooting mostly 9x19, and realized for just a few hundred over what I could sell one of my 550s and feeder I could swing the 650 and keep it mostly focused on nine. So I did, and man is it cool...

I would suggest keeping one 550. Also, the feeder is a huge part of what makes the 650 cool, but contrary to what people say you could use one without as a transition plan, if it helped you avoid getting killed while you slept :)

Flintsky
02-19-2017, 10:41 AM
For me right now with young children, it boils down to saving time. An extra half hour can mean the difference a better nights sleep, more things accomplished outside of reloading, or just simply more time spent with family.

Luke
02-19-2017, 11:22 AM
Why do you hate it?


Don't like the primer stroke. I'll sell it ready to load if you want it.

LittleLebowski
02-19-2017, 11:23 AM
GuanoLoco, are you case gauging everything?

GuanoLoco
02-19-2017, 11:43 AM
Quantity of ammo I desire and can afford to load/shoot = HIGH
Damage to elbows from excessive loading/dry fire/live fire/training/matches = HIGH
Value of my time (self-valued, abilty to generate income) relative to cost of equipment = HIGH
Desire to spend time on things like dry fire to get more better cheaper vs. loading = HIGH
Desire to generate / stockpile ammo for live fire practice, matches, training classes = HIGH
Interest in sticking with hobbies for 10 years+/- or more (life but perhaps with cycles) = HIGH
Ability to expend (paced out over a few years...) without compromising my financial health or marriage = HIGH

Answer = full baller reloading equipment. 1050, bullet feeder, RF100 primer filler, cement mixer, dehydrator and all the required accessories and upgrades. For me it's all about the time and consumables, not the fixed equipment. The fixed equipment ties up capital, but also has a reasonable resale value.

I also occasionally enjoy having a friend over for a reloading party. This is effective for productivity but consumes one of my most valuable and scarce resources - time.

Speed = currently about 1500 9mm/hour, SUSTAINED. Includes loading primer tubes, doesn't include initial pres setup/calibration or case gauging loaded ammo. Always working on maximizing speed but minimizing failures/jams. There is a delicate balance here. Reloading for more than a couple hours is exhausting, I try to stick to < 2 hour windows when solo, which means about 1000+ rounds soup to nuts (inluding QC, case gauging, cleanup).

I think a 650/Mr. Bullet Feeder would suffice for most.

I almost forget - Mark 7 Autoloader. Definite not so humblebrag.

GuanoLoco
02-19-2017, 11:51 AM
GuanoLoco, are you case gauging everything?

Yes, in a Ben Stoeger Hundo Case Gauge, after visual inspection of cases. I also check all primers. Failures go in to the practice bin and I always shoot them first. I see somewhat over a 1% failure rate in CG failure practice ammo in rather forgiving Tanfo and Glock chambers.

I am also fooling with practice vs. match ammo where practice ammo uses cheaper and harder primers (e.g. Fiocchi) match ammo uses Federal primers (+ ~$0.01 ea. Plus intermittent availability). Not sure this is worth it, especially as Fiocchi's have to be set stupid deep (0.005-0.009") raletive to Federala for reliable ignition on a more heavily sprung gun.

mmc45414
02-19-2017, 12:10 PM
Don't like the primer stroke.

Not trying to convince anybody to like or not like anything, but one of the things I think is BETTER in the 550/650 comparison is priming on the 650. I only mention this here as there are 550 users that are exhibiting 650 curiosity and I would not want anybody to be suspect of the 650 priming.

GuanoLoco
02-19-2017, 12:19 PM
On the 550 I find I have to grap the bullet tray with my left hand and push forward hard with the right hand to get a deep, consistent primer seating depth. This kills my throughput. I'm sure with Federal primers things would go easier (seat flush or just below and always go boom).

I still load a number of low volume calibers on the 550; I don't like to load more than 300 tops in a sitting.

I toy with the idea of upgrading to a 650 for misc calibers (add case and bullet feeder), but the speed of caliber conversion would go way down and the cost of caliber conversion would go way up.

At some point I am better off getting a 1050 conversion, but $550 + minor PITA for caliber changes and re-tuning. Hard to justify for low volumes.

Hambo
02-19-2017, 02:15 PM
I would suggest keeping one 550. Also, the feeder is a huge part of what makes the 650 cool, but contrary to what people say you could use one without as a transition plan, if it helped you avoid getting killed while you slept :)

She's German, not Italian, so I'd get it while wide awake and without a blindfold. ;)

The more I read these posts, I think I'd keep both 550s for stuff I don't want to load on a single stage (.38, .45acp, etc) and just use a 650 for 9mm.

Mitch
02-19-2017, 03:26 PM
I'm almost at the point that I'm done reloading 9mm. I figure I'm saving around ~$75 per 1000 rounds, give or take. With my 550, that takes me around 3 hours if things go well, and up to 4 if things go to crap. That's usually not done all at once.

I'm also teaching BJJ now on top of a full time job and have a 3 month old son. BJJ privates pay more than reloading saves me and I'd rather spend time with my son at home, so reloading doesn't make a ton of sense to me now. I might feel differently with a faster press, but I also am not burning through the rounds fast enough right now to spend more money on reloading.


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mmc45414
02-19-2017, 04:54 PM
She's German, not Italian, so I'd get it while wide awake and without a blindfold. ;)

The more I read these posts, I think I'd keep both 550s for stuff I don't want to load on a single stage (.38, .45acp, etc) and just use a 650 for 9mm.

More good reason to avoid facing the peril! :)

I sold the second 550 to get the 650, but they are not that much and I am wondering if at some point I might buy a second one again. Having a 550 set up with small primers and a second one set up with large might be the definition of having the world by the ass. Current price of the 550 is $413, and that comes with a powder measure, drop die and shell plate that a person adding one would not need and could easily sell (maybe even to LL...) for $50. For that matter a person adding a 650 would end up with the extra powder measure and the conversion stuff from the 550 left over.

mmc45414
02-19-2017, 05:05 PM
On the 550 I find I have to grap the bullet tray with my left hand and push forward hard with the right hand to get a deep, consistent primer seating depth. This kills my throughput.

You are loading and shooting way more than I do, so I am reluctant to endeavor to "advise" you, but my experience is that the 550 is really sensitive to the tweaking of that kinda lame stop SHCS on the primer feed. When I got the second 550 it came out of the box working vastly better than the one I had for decades. I just figured that wuz the way they worked, but just slight turns on the stop made significant difference. Also, not sure you do, but after years of use I happened to actually read the manual and someplace it says they recommend NOT to use the thing sitting. I use the 650 and 900 standing, but still use my 550 sitting, but just another consideration.

mmc45414
02-19-2017, 05:12 PM
I'm almost at the point that I'm done reloading 9mm. I figure I'm saving around ~$75 per 1000 rounds, give or take. I'm also teaching BJJ now... BJJ privates pay more than reloading saves me

Perfect example of where there IS a financial formula.

GuanoLoco
02-19-2017, 05:22 PM
You are loading and shooting way more than I do, so I am reluctant to endeavor to "advise" you, but my experience is that the 550 is really sensitive to the tweaking of that kinda lame stop SHCS on the primer feed. When I got the second 550 it came out of the box working vastly better than the one I had for decades. I just figured that wuz the way they worked, but just slight turns on the stop made significant difference. Also, not sure you do, but after years of use I happened to actually read the manual and someplace it says they recommend NOT to use the thing sitting. I use the 650 and 900 standing, but still use my 550 sitting, but just another consideration.

I had far less experience when I was loading on the 550, and always happy to learn. SHCS?

JCS
02-19-2017, 05:28 PM
When I upgraded from a turret to a 550b it was mainly about the time savings.

I wasn't able to reload any cheaper just a much better investment of my time.

Let's say I can save $80 per k (which I easily do).

With the turret press it would've taken me 10 hrs to reload 1k. So $80/10hrs is $8/hr. It wasn't worth it.

Now it's more like 4 hours to reload 1k and that's because it never seems to go smoothly. I'm still working out the wrinkle with the press. But $80/4hrs = $20 and hr. That's a much better investment of my time.


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mmc45414
02-19-2017, 05:46 PM
I had far less experience when I was loading on the 550, and always happy to learn. SHCS?

The 550 primer arm with the ram on it moves every cycle, when it returns to the home position the travel is stopped by the "Socket Head Cap Screw", which is a adequate but rather course adjustment. Looking down from the top, just a slight turn (you can probably do it without loosening the jam nut) can help center the ram more directly under the center of the case. For that matter, there is also some adjustment in the positioning of the platform on the ram. Anyway, I consider priming to be the least optimal aspect of the 550, I just tolerated it for years, then I got a second new 500 and it was a lot better, and then got a 650 and it was even better. The priming ram on the 650 is attached to the platform, and the registration between it and the detent ball are obviously CNC machined in the same setup to within the tight tolerance modern equipment is capable of. Just seemed like little tweaks made the priming a bunch better on the 550, but when I only had one Dillon I just figured the way it was was the way it was.

Just went out and found this:
14071
and 14037 is the SHCS I wuz talking about.

JCS
02-19-2017, 07:02 PM
The primer system on my 550b has given me fits since I got it. I can't go more than 25 rounds without it messing up.

Either it won't seat the primer all the way or the primer bar doesn't go far enough forward. It seems like every time I get a good pace going it messes up.


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mmc45414
02-19-2017, 08:07 PM
The primer system on my 550b has given me fits since I got it. I can't go more than 25 rounds without it messing up.

Either it won't seat the primer all the way or the primer bar doesn't go far enough forward. It seems like every time I get a good pace going it messes up.


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I would say it it dirty. Get some cheap ass automotive brake cleaner and spray it. Do not lubricate it, run it dry.

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Patrick Taylor
02-19-2017, 08:58 PM
I do not shoot enough to really even be reloading but do load on a 550. If wanting to build up my reserves I just sit down right after work and spend a few minutes loading one primer tube. Done M-F I will have 500 rounds ready for a weekend shoot.

45dotACP
02-20-2017, 12:05 AM
I'm almost at the point that I'm done reloading 9mm. I figure I'm saving around ~$75 per 1000 rounds, give or take. With my 550, that takes me around 3 hours if things go well, and up to 4 if things go to crap. That's usually not done all at once.

I'm also teaching BJJ now on top of a full time job and have a 3 month old son. BJJ privates pay more than reloading saves me and I'd rather spend time with my son at home, so reloading doesn't make a ton of sense to me now. I might feel differently with a faster press, but I also am not burning through the rounds fast enough right now to spend more money on reloading.


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That's definitely a good reason to probably just buy a ton of factory 9mm burrets.

I personally don't use the same formula, mostly because if I pick up extra work, it comes in a 12 hour shift...eating a whole day, including time that could be spent reloading, shooting, and spending time with the chirruns (nephews are over this week...love those guys)

That's pretty much why I ditched the turret press. I wanted a reloading setup that I can use to crank out about 400 rounds in an hour. Then I can reload a few boxes of ammo, go shoot some of it, come home, make conditioning for BJJ (or maybe even some rolling) come home, play with the kiddos, cook dinner, and go to bed supremely happy. As opposed to picking up a 12 (most likely 14) hour shift, coming home covered in god knows what, having had a single 30 minute break and being on my feet the whole day, not having time to get to the academy, hoping I have some leftovers in the fridge, and flopping into bed exhausted.

I don't pick up many shifts. Work life balance is important. Watching people die all week has made the weekend with my nephews all the more important to me.

Duelist
02-20-2017, 12:44 AM
I have a 650 and hate it. Came extremely close to buying a 1050 a couple weeks ago. I've only done one timed run and I was goin balls to the wall at 100 rounds in 4 minutes 32 seconds.

O,O. I'm running a turret. 100 rounds takes enough longer than that, I've given up on reloading for until I finish this MAster's program. Can't afford the time - will just shoot and buy cases at best price sales.

Lomshek
02-25-2017, 01:19 AM
After spending 15 years using a Lee Pro 1000 for 9mm and a little while using a Redding T7 for .223 my upgrade will be a 1050.

More stations, a swager, higher RPM, the ability to use those extra stations for a neck mandrel, bullet feeder, crimp die and whatever else I can think of.

After herky/jerking my way through another match worth of 9mm on the Pro 1000 or loading 1500 rounds at once on the T7 and doing all the brass prep by hand I want all the automation and "all in one" ability I can have.

I love creating precision ammo but don't need to trim each case on a hand trimmer then swage each case with a super swage while yanking the handle 3 or 4 times for each case before a round is loaded to feel that love. I load to shoot more so am upgrading as soon as I can swing it for all the speed I can buy.

rdtompki
03-04-2017, 04:30 PM
My cycle rate loading 9mm on a 1050 is 2 seconds/round, but transferring from the RF100, lubing brass, loading Mr. BF and loading the CF eats into that 1800/hr rate. I'm very happy with anything over 1000. I load at least 6000/month for my wife and myself. I don't count time to tumble since I tend to do those steps going to/from the barn. The curse of being semi-retired is that you have too much time to shoot.