Gun position while running?

[Clobbersaurus]

I picked up a tip from a Steve Anderson podcast that I wanted to get opinions on. PF has a high percentage of Timmy's who also game, so this is the exact place to ask this question.:cool:

Anderson advocated keeping the gun up in front of your face while running to help shave some time getting the gun on target as you decelerate into position. I have worked it a bit and it actually feels really good. It does seem to help shave some time and make the deceleration smoother. I usually rotate the gun inboard a bit and get it just under eye level out in front of me. Also, I've taken to walking around the house with my hand in front of my face and aiming on light switches etc, just to ingrain it. Yes, my wife thinks I am crazy! I had to explain to here what I was doing.

Now, the Timmy in me immediately wondered if this was a totally gamer thing and I worried about reducing visibility while running. To be honest, after practicing it quite a bit, with both eyes open, it didn't seem to be an issue. I guess there is the possibility of smacking oneself in the teeth or face with the the gun if you fell or were struck, so there is that.

I am wondering if anyone here has give it a try, or does this in competition? I also wonder if you think it is kinda stupid, from a Timmy point of view. It certainly looks stupid, but in practice it just feels faster and smoother and visibility does not seem to be an issue.

Thoughts?

[Default.mp3]

I know McNamara advised running normally, with the gun in hand, just letting the arms pump as they are. He argued against a high port type carry which I understand Defoor has taught before (magwell facing the direction you're running) due issues with it being an unnatural running position, sights are no longer in the peripheral vision, and the gun itself can block peripheral vision.

IIRC, Craig Douglas teaches running with your armed locked down to your side, for movement during AMIS.

I personally run with the gun kinda in a number 2 position, with slight pumping of the gun arm, and regular pumping of the free arm, which is situated in a normal running position. Being in the number 2, it makes it a natural place to get the gun back into position, as it's simply a part of the draw stroke; at the same time, it's not too unnatural (particularly since I will sometimes run with my arms up high during long runs to help minimize fatigue), while also not blocking peripheral vision.

[Lon]

I think it works for gun games. I don't think it's the proper technique for other situations.

For gun games, you KNOW you're moving to another shooting position to shoot paper targets. Nobody is going to be there to shoot back at you. For a different situation like running down a long hallway to find and neutralize an active shooter I think it's the wrong technique. Having that gun right up in front of your face minimizes what you can actually see should someone come out of a doorway suddenly.

The difference between this:
13801

And this:
13802

[Lon]

No idea why the pics came out that way.

[JHC]

When I've watched gamers run with the gun up in their "workspace", it is not fully aligned to the next target and as I've worked it, it isn't really obscuring what lies ahead. As one is running what is in one's field of view is changing rapidly anyway.

A lot probably comes down to how much ground are you trying to cover? If PatMac is simply sprinting with normal sprint mechanics that's probably because he is trying haul ass a significant distance to somewhere vs using those mechanics to move 10 feet to a corner of a hallway.

Considering that the thread is about actually running which one would probably not be doing in a CQB scenario. More like "get out of this parking lot" kind of thing.

[voodoo_man]

Depends on what your are specifically running for, the reason, and what threat is presented.

I will obviously not touch on competition, as it has rules and there are no rules in reality or da streetz.

I've done a good bit of real world running with a gun in my hand, specifically chasing people or running from a vehicle to a structure or from structure to structure.

The simplist concept to understand is, "tip on" which is a blade concept. If you know where your target is, your muzzle should be oriented in that general direction and you should be discriminating targets and threat levels.

If you need to have your gun out and you need to run, what is the purpose of this? Ask yourself. Is there a BG in the building in front of you? Did a BG just round a corner? Are you chasing a BG through a street and there are people around? Muzzle down is not a good idea, not only is it unnatural to be in that position but it is a potential issue if you fall/trip. Furthermore, anchoring your pistol against a body part is more than likely a good idea. I usually default to a head anchor/index for most of this type of work. I don't want to muzzle anyone and I don't want have my gun low line below my eye line. While running I can have a good index/anchor point off my head and still maintain a good posture.

Obviously gaming does not have some of these issues, but this is one aspect where gaming does not translate into real life.

[JustOneGun]

First of all, why are you running. Law enforcement runs to fights and sometimes tactically retreats. I think there is nothing wrong with asking LEO's to not run so much with the pistol out. Only when necessary. Will they have a need to run and shoot immediately.

In competition safety is my responsibility and the safety officer and the range officer and the owner of the range.... The rules are there for everyone's safety. Keeping that pistol pointed at a berm is the best and safe way.

In real life there is no berm, therefore there is no way and reason to do that. Personally after all the thought processes when running like hell, I just pump my arms naturally and keep my finger off the trigger. I should also ask myself, is this the best way and/or do I really need to be doing this? Running around with a pistol out should be kept to a minimum. Just because I plan on running with the pistol with normal arm movement for running doesn't mean it's totally safe. It doesn't mean a LEO isn't going to shoot me thinking I'm a bad guy. I plan on only running for a short period. I'll either be safe and holster, shot and on the ground or some combination of the two in a relatively. Ultimately is there a chance I will need to run and shoot? If so I run with the gun out. If not, holster and run.

[Kevin B.]

I picked up a tip from a Steve Anderson podcast that I wanted to get opinions on. PF has a high percentage of Timmy's who also game, so this is the exact place to ask this question.:cool:

Anderson advocated keeping the gun up in front of your face while running to help shave some time getting the gun on target as you decelerate into position. I have worked it a bit and it actually feels really good. It does seem to help shave some time and make the deceleration smoother. I usually rotate the gun inboard a bit and get it just under eye level out in front of me. Also, I've taken to walking around the house with my hand in front of my face and aiming on light switches etc, just to ingrain it. Yes, my wife thinks I am crazy! I had to explain to here what I was doing.

Now, the Timmy in me immediately wondered if this was a totally gamer thing and I worried about reducing visibility while running. To be honest, after practicing it quite a bit, with both eyes open, it didn't seem to be an issue. I guess there is the possibility of smacking oneself in the teeth or face with the the gun if you fell or were struck, so there is that.

I am wondering if anyone here has give it a try, or does this in competition? I also wonder if you think it is kinda stupid, from a Timmy point of view. It certainly looks stupid, but in practice it just feels faster and smoother and visibility does not seem to be an issue.

Thoughts?

Stupid may be overstating it but it seems like a technique that has limited to no utility in the real world. I can't speak to the competitive aspect.

[JHC]

Stupid may be overstating it but it seems like a technique that has limited to no utility in the real world. I can't speak to the competitive aspect.

To devil's advocate and expand on understanding its lack of utility :

1. Is that because there is very little utility in fast running with a drawn pistol anyway? Is that the key?

2. If there is a real world application for fast running with a drawn pistol to an engagement, it doesn't obscure vision in actual use in my range experience*** and it is fast and efficient to return to shooting so where does it fall apart?

*** - the position I've seen from gamers and experimented with has the gunhand bladed not quite fully palms down, SHO and at about lower jaw height with the elbow bent about 90 degrees, muzzle downrange. So its fast back out to freestyle much like the modern reload from the "work space".

[Mr_White]

As a practical matter, I don't really have occasion to run around in the real world with a gun in my hand. That happens on the range and in matches for me. I generally do what I think JHC is describing - float the gun out a little in SHO, and keep the muzzle in the safest direction under the circumstances, which on the range and in matches is basically straight downrange. Even with the relatively intense movement of running, I think that allows the muzzle to be reasonably confined in direction. Other environments might dictate a more muzzle down or muzzle up position for the gun. One thing I am really stuck on is having unobstructed vision to enable locating and evaluating threats/potential threats/bystanders/environment/etc.

I actually just recorded a drill the other day which works on shooting into position and starts with me running (pretty short distance in this drill though) with the gun in hand, then mounting the gun and engaging as I'm slowing and stopping. So this is the way I do it currently, but I wouldn't say I'm super attached to any particular technique or method. I do think the underlying elements of unobstructed vision, muzzle control, and confinement posed by the physical environment will largely dictate exact methods and gun positions in specific contexts though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fVcYqWxS-w

[Kevin B.]

To devil's advocate and expand on understanding its lack of utility :

1. Is that because there is very little utility in fast running with a drawn pistol anyway? Is that the key?

I think there are some circumstances where fast running with a drawn pistol is required.


2. If there is a real world application for fast running with a drawn pistol to an engagement, it doesn't obscure vision in actual use in my range experience*** and it is fast and efficient to return to shooting so where does it fall apart?

If I understand what you are asking correctly, it is an issue of quality/speed of movement. The objective of moving is to get where you are going.


*** - the position I've seen from gamers and experimented with has the gunhand bladed not quite fully palms down, SHO and at about lower jaw height with the elbow bent about 90 degrees, muzzle downrange. So its fast back out to freestyle much like the modern reload from the "work space".

If I asked you to do a 40-yard sprint with your pistol, is that how you would do it? Probably not.

[JHC]

No I reckon I'd run like PatMac style.

[PNWTO]

I like the Pat Mac method but currently, when I run in training, I find myself switching between two of Defoor's techniques:

1. High, w/magwell pointed forward, or towards target, and away from head.

2. Strong hand brings the gun up tight against the pectoral.

[Clobbersaurus]

I think it works for gun games. I don't think it's the proper technique for other situations.

For gun games, you KNOW you're moving to another shooting position to shoot paper targets. Nobody is going to be there to shoot back at you. For a different situation like running down a long hallway to find and neutralize an active shooter I think it's the wrong technique. Having that gun right up in front of your face minimizes what you can actually see should someone come out of a doorway suddenly.

The difference between this:
13801

And this:
13802

Thanks for all the discussion in this thread, good stuff.

Lon, the difference between your photos, and I thank you for posting them, is that with both eyes open you get much less obstructed vision with the gun out in front.

The way I have been doing it is keeping the gun canted at about 20 deg just below my right eye with the rear of the slide about two inches in front of my face. For me the gun just becomes a bit of a blur. If I close my left eye, the gun obstructs my vision. Open both and it is not nearly as much of a problem.

Obviously I'm coming at this from an IPSC mindset. Running with gun in hand is usually short sprints between 3 and 15 yards, so not long periods of time at all. By doing this I'm probably only looking to shave a few .10ths (maybe) off my time. Added up over the course of a few sprints in a stage and it tends to matter enough for me to want to explore it as a way to shave some time.

[JHC]

Very worthwhile discussion to me. Thank you.

[Hambo]

Considering that the thread is about actually running which one would probably not be doing in a CQB scenario. More like "get out of this parking lot" kind of thing.

If I were running from an active shooter, I'd keep my pistol holstered so I don't get a taste of blue on blue. If I were running to cover in a fight I'd Pat Mac it. If there's a three man ambush ahead (as in USPSA stages), I wouldn't be running toward it at all.

[JHC]

If I were running from an active shooter, I'd keep my pistol holstered so I don't get a taste of blue on blue. If I were running to cover in a fight I'd Pat Mac it. If there's a three man ambush ahead (as in USPSA stages), I wouldn't be running toward it at all.

Very nice! I was thinking of say trying to haul ass out of a riot where folks were getting mobbed and stomped. I think your formula is quite good

[voodoo_man]

+1 for reholster after the threat or on the egress.

Holsters serve many functions, reholstering and unassing the situation while not getting shot is just as important as concealment and capability.

[Surf]

I know I often give long replies that are usually the result of putting huge amounts of thought, trial and error into techniques. So it may come as a surprise when I say that I find it curious that there seems to be a lot of thought process involved for this one.

I don't shoot competition but since this is in the competition / IPSC / USPSA forum I will answer it from that standpoint of shooting stages of fire. Primary hand on the pistol and weapon stays about top of the shoulder height with an inward cant anywhere from 45 to full gangsta. I pump with both hands but primary hand has less movement and generally pumps front to rear, so muzzle stays forward. I guess maybe similar to how Mr. White is running with the weapon, but I have way more cant as it feels natural and easier to use what I can of the primary hand to generate momentum via a small pump of the arm. Quick bursts, covering short distances and my time onto target is much quicker with much better hits with this technique.

Is it just for games? Absolutely not. Would I use it all the time? No, but the situation would dictate any number of variances to different skills. If the gun was up high when I am moving with muzzle forward, I guess there is probably a pretty darn good reason for the muzzle to be in that direction, but I also think, like any other movement technique you depress the muzzle as necessary. If I have to travel longer distances, even plastic pistol gets heavy up high and I would probably have a one handed depressed muzzle down run around waist level.

I try not to limit myself. Hell we've been running around with things in our hands since we were kids. Just be aware of the muzzle and your trigger finger. I guess just use what works. The more you know and the more you are proficient with various skills the more options you have to suit whatever situation that you may find yourself in.

[dbateman]

Depends on why I'm running.

If I'm running into an area where there are things that need to be shot, I'm doing it like Anderson says.
Hits per second win races.