Calling shots?

[Doc_Glock]

I had a frustrating day shooting today. I found myself pulling shots off target with great frequency. Typically downward. I was not frustrated by the flinch so much as I was frustrated by my lack of ability to read the sights and "call the miss."

According to my sight picture and how I felt my trigger press went, I was frequently astounded at how far off the the intended target I hit. To my mind, many times I had a good sight picture that I did not disrupt during the trigger press. I would recover the shot, continuing to look at the sights and only then check the target. Sometimes I nailed it, but often it was a miss and I could not tell the difference between the two based on what I saw through the sights. That is frustrating because I can't learn when I can't get the feedback to know when things go awry.

I even had one target I could not check due to it being 25 yards so there was no temptation to lift the eyes prematurely to check it. I missed half the shots off paper and I would not have called a single one off the paper.

What the heck is going on? I guess I have several questions for the more experienced:

1. Is there a trick to learning to call the shot?
2. How much time does it take to learn round count and dry fire wise?

And finally and this is an unlikely long shot I think:

3. Is it possible to mess up sight alignment after the trigger releases but before the bullet leaves the barrel during the lock time?

Thank you for any replies.

[ACP230]

When I pulled shots they usually went low and left. I'm right handed.

My problem was mostly trying to make the shot "right now" because it looked right.
It showed up a lot when I switched from irons to a red dot on my Ruger Mark II.
When I let the dot hand in my wobble zone and just pressed the trigger without
trying to make it go as soon as things looked right, I did better.

Dry fire helped me most with learning to shoot a rifle offhand, and to stop flinching
when I started to shoot a pistol in .357 Maximum that was louder than I was used to.
It took a several weeks of dry firing every few days to get rid of the flinch.

The coach of my son's junior pistol team had the team members shoot at the blank backs of
targets now and then. It can help because the bullseye isn't there to distract from sight
alignment and trigger press.

You might also check and see if your rear sight is loose. It most likely isn't, but strange
things do happen. My deer rifle started shooting three inch groups that were quite high once.
Instead of inch groups where I wanted them. Turned out the scope mount screws were loose.
Still have no idea how that happened. Once I tightened them up things went back to normal.

[okie john]

I had a frustrating day shooting today. I found myself pulling shots off target with great frequency. Typically downward. I was not frustrated by the flinch so much as I was frustrated by my lack of ability to read the sights and "call the miss."

According to my sight picture and how I felt my trigger press went, I was frequently astounded at how far off the the intended target I hit. To my mind, many times I had a good sight picture that I did not disrupt during the trigger press. I would recover the shot, continuing to look at the sights and only then check the target. Sometimes I nailed it, but often it was a miss and I could not tell the difference between the two based on what I saw through the sights. That is frustrating because I can't learn when I can't get the feedback to know when things go awry.

I even had one target I could not check due to it being 25 yards so there was no temptation to lift the eyes prematurely to check it. I missed half the shots off paper and I would not have called a single one off the paper.

What the heck is going on? I guess I have several questions for the more experienced:

1. Is there a trick to learning to call the shot?
2. How much time does it take to learn round count and dry fire wise?

And finally and this is an unlikely long shot I think:

3. Is it possible to mess up sight alignment after the trigger releases but before the bullet leaves the barrel during the lock time?

Thank you for any replies.

Tell us more.

What pistol and load are you shooting? Distance? Target? Lighting conditions? Sights?

What's your level of experience? Did you have another more experienced shooter try the pistol? Can you post pictures of your groups?


Okie John

[Doc_Glock]

Tell us more.

What pistol and load are you shooting? Distance? Target? Lighting conditions? Sights?

What's your level of experience? Did you have another more experienced shooter try the pistol? Can you post pictures of your groups?


Okie John

I am working my way through 2000 rounds in a G 19.

I have been shooting 4 years but only with higher round counts in the last months. Just finished 2k rounds though a G 42.

Photos and much more at my training log.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23227-Eric-s-Training-and-Gun-Testing-Journal

The exercise that frustrated me was a dot drill at 3 yds. 1" dots. Not dot torture.

Here is a group at 15 yds with the .22 conversion from today. Rear sight is off a bit.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170208/117d31fd492b16017da02dab653ad50b.jpg

[taadski]

I was not frustrated by the flinch so much as I was frustrated by my lack of ability to read the sights and "call the miss."

What the heck is going on?


Often, when people flinch, they blink. When you blink, your eyes are closed at that most crucial of moments. If they're not open, you won't see the reflexive movement. You might 'feel' it, but you won't see it. Also, a lot of people will swear up and down that they're keeping their eyes open. And aren't. FWIW.

[YVK]

3. Is it possible to mess up sight alignment after the trigger releases but before the bullet leaves the barrel during the lock time?



I was told yes, a couple of times.


I

1. Is there a trick to learning to call the shot?


I am a last guy to say something on this subject. That out of the way, my experience is that being consciously cognizant of front sight position just before the lift is the answer. I think it is an advanced skill because lower level shooters are usually consciously preoccupied with something else, like how they need to draw, trigger press etc, and there are only so many things one can concentrate at once. I don't call my shots well on a consistent basis but sometimes I do OK. Usually those are the days when I am in zone otherwise and don't need to think of any other tasks at hand.

[Clobbersaurus]

OP, it sounds like you are on the right track and you should try not to get frustrated. It takes a long time to learn to call your shots. I am still learning to call my shots, but I have gotten much better. I still have lots of work to do, so take this advice for what it's worth.

Below is a combination of drills I needed to do a LOT of to get to the point where I can mostly call my shots:

Wall Drill. (If you can't press the trigger straight back without disturbing your sights you won't be able to call your shots)
Dots - 3 yards and further
25 yard B8's

After you are comfortable with those, start picking up the pace. Transition drills, Bill drills, berm drills, etc. The moment you learn you can track the sight through the full recoil arc, then you are on the road to calling your shots at speed.

When you first start out, shot calling and tracking the front sight seems like witchcraft or lies told to you by people on the internet, but it is possible. You just need time and dedication. Keep it up!

[okie john]

I flipped through your training log and I see at least four problems.


Take a break. You’re shooting so much that you’re close to perfecting some very bad habits. A couple of weeks off won’t kill you.
Settle on one pistol. Trying to do serious work with eight or nine pistols in three months is a waste of time and ammo. Shooting three or four on the same trip is worse because you spend more time getting used to different sight pictures and trigger pulls than you do getting better at shooting. Every pistol you mentioned is excellent. Except for the G42, they’re interchangeable. Pick one and put the others away for the next 5-7k rounds.
Shoot less ammo per trip. Larry Vickers ends training days after 6 hours or 300 rounds, whichever comes first, and that’s for seasoned shooters. You’re not there yet. Until you solve some basic problems, I’d stop after 100 rounds on slow-fire accuracy days and 200 on speed days. Your hands and your ego will thank you. Hitting the range 1-2 times per week is still an excellent idea.
Focus on shooting groups at 5 yards. Pulling the target to 3 yards only masks problems, which leads you to overthink a lot of the drills. For instance, get to where you can put five shots into a 2” group slow fire at 5 yards on demand. Then see if you can cut that to 1.5”, then 1”. Then push the target to 7 yards or 10 and repeat. This reads easy, but it’s not. If you want to shoot a couple of mags SHO or WHO, fine, but don’t shoot an entire box. You’re just not ready for that yet.


I see a lot of energy and dedication here, and I have a lot of respect for your sheer determination to get good at this. You’ve demonstrated that you can work hard. Now it’s time to work smart.

Keep us posted, and let us know if you have questions.


Okie John

[ubervic]

I've been shooting pistol only about 6 years, and my skills are not as advanced as many on this forum. Having shared that disclaimer, I humbly recommend that those who find their shots are hitting well off the intended target spot and are unable to effectively call shots will benefit from less live fire and much, much more dry fire.

I used to do 80%-90% live fire vs. 10%-20% dry fire, and I found I was constantly trying to adjust my technique at the range in order to tighten and center my groups. When I switched over to at least 50% dry fire/50% live fire, I found that I could focus much more on sight picture and sight alignment during the press----and calling shots in dry fire immediately improved my live fire accuracy and results across the board.

[Doc_Glock]

OP, it sounds like you are on the right track and you should try not to get frustrated. It takes a long time to learn to call your shots. I am still learning to call my shots, but I have gotten much better. I still have lots of work to do, so take this advice for what it's worth.

Below is a combination of drills I needed to do a LOT of to get to the point where I can mostly call my shots:

Wall Drill. (If you can't press the trigger straight back without disturbing your sights you won't be able to call your shots)
Dots - 3 yards and further
25 yard B8's

After you are comfortable with those, start picking up the pace. Transition drills, Bill drills, berm drills, etc. The moment you learn you can track the sight through the full recoil arc, then you are on the road to calling your shots at speed.

When you first start out, shot calling and tracking the front sight seems like witchcraft or lies told to you by people on the internet, but it is possible. You just need time and dedication. Keep it up!

Thanks for the encouragement from everyone. I am working on many of the above drills so I will just stay at it and wait for a breakthrough.

Okie: I hear what you are saying. Yesterday I shot exceptionally bad for me and I think it is partly because I did 400 rounds the day before and I am just mentally fatigued. I am still Viking with the G19 for now but I do like to dry fire a variety. Maybe that is detrimental? I do like machinery.

I have spent years doing much more dry fire than live fire, this is the first year I have had a range convenient enough to shoot weekly or even daily, so I am taking advantage of that and the dry fire has suffered.

Again thanks for the encouragement. I have rarely found a physical skill I wanted to get good at that where I couldn't get at least above average through practice and persistence. Shooting seems to have a steep learning curve between basic low expectation rounds on target and excellence. I am banging on that wall and wondering if I just hit my genetic limits. I doubt it because I am no where near the 10,000 hour mark;)

[Peally]

Dry fire and shoot like a mofo, you'll get there. I can almost guarantee you're just pulling shots low like everyone does when they start out.

Just remember to make your shots up in dry fire. Solid grip, clean trigger pull, sights lined up. If they aren't, put another shot on it.

[scw2]

I've found it can be worth dry firing at the range l, especially when live fire isn't going so well.

[randyflycaster]

I also was pulling my shots to the side. I then tried really hard control muzzle flip by rolling my wrists forward and locking them. This helped, but still, I pulled my shots to the side. I was getting really frustrated and discouraged. Then, finally I saw a Rob Leatham youtube video where he teaches that it's also important to lock our wrists so that they don't break sideways. When the muzzle rises, therefore, it should rise only straight up and down. (My muzzle, I noticed, was rising slightly to the side.) If we are gripping a handgun, therefore, and someone pushes our hands, our wrists should not break. Instead, our upper body should turn sideways.

Suddenly, I stopped pulling so many of my shots to the side.

I also try to focus only on the top of the front sight. I used to have the bad habit of focusing on the sight's red dot.

Randy

[Peally]

If you just pull the trigger straight you shouldn't have accuracy issues. Grip only affects recoil management (and as an observation my sights recoil all over, as long as they return you're good to go).

[Sal Picante]

1. Is there a trick to learning to call the shot?
2. How much time does it take to learn round count and dry fire wise?

And finally and this is an unlikely long shot I think:

3. Is it possible to mess up sight alignment after the trigger releases but before the bullet leaves the barrel during the lock time?

Thank you for any replies.

1.) Yes - The Roger's Ball & Dummy Drill: Take a magazine load it alternating live/dummy/live/dummy, etc until all the way full. You want a live round on the bottom and live round on the top. At least 10 dummies in there.

When you shoot your group, do it at a moderate pace - when you hit the dummy round, if you see the gun dip like you're dunking a donut into coffee, give yourself a pat not he back: You just saw your mistake. Seeing is believing! How far did the gun dip? Surprising? Tell yourself, "Mom still loves me" and tap rack and get back on the sights - just concentrate on FS and a nice trigger press straight back into the web of your hand.

If you mess up again, that's ok... Get through the magazine.

The goal is begin able to break a shot with little or no movement in the gun by the end... Part of this drill teaches you to see your sights and keep seeing them during the shot. That process of "seeing the sight during the shot" is essentially "calling the shot". When you learn how to see the sight better, then you'll notice that you're pushing the gun a bit, etc when you pick up the pace (this take a bit of time to develop)

We've talked about this a lot in other threads - check those out:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4408-Les-Journal&p=444947&viewfull=1#post444947 (has a lame video)
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18178-The-Flinch-Pre-Ignition-Push-quot-Unwanted-Gun-Movement-quot/page2


2.) This is a really open ended question. Everyone is different. Just getting the basics of calling the shot? Maybe a few months. Learning to pay attention to what the sights are telling you so you're not fucking it up? Maybe a lifetime. I'm still working on that.

I think you can learn good triggering from dry fire; learn to pull straight back into the web of your hand/don't disturb the sights/etc. But, however, long pause, I think you need to live fire that stuff because there is a very real "flinch" and subconscious unsettling that happens when shooting.


3.) Debates rage: Personally, in a practical shooting context, I think that what we do immediately before the shot breaks plays a much bigger role: Body movement, transitioning the gun through multiple targets, jerking the trigger, etc. In the grand scheme of things, I would put this somewhere near last on shit to worry about...

[Doc_Glock]

I looked at lock time on a G19 and it is on the order of 0.007s I don't see how it is possible to screw up the alignment in that interval.

[Sal Picante]

I looked at lock time on a G19 and it is on the order of 0.007s I don't see how it is possible to screw up the alignment in that interval.

I dunno if that is right... I think shot-to-shot on a full auto glock is ~.06s? Considering that there are folks that can split down into the .09's (once in a while), I'm thinking there sure could be some amount of deviation applied to the gun during the firing process (after pulling the trigger before the bullet exits the barrel)...

[okie john]

I looked at lock time on a G19 and it is on the order of 0.007s I don't see how it is possible to screw up the alignment in that interval.

It's possible, but you have other problems to solve first.


Okie John

[Doc_Glock]

I dunno if that is right... I think shot-to-shot on a full auto glock is ~.06s? Considering that there are folks that can split down into the .09's (once in a while), I'm thinking there sure could be some amount of deviation applied to the gun during the firing process (after pulling the trigger before the bullet exits the barrel)...

I misremembered. The time from sear release to primer ignition is around 0.003 per this test. I am sure there can be movement but it has to be minuscule.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uC9CINaiGBw

[Peally]

It's so small as to be effectively meaningless. If you train yourself to not affect the gun before ignition the post-pew problem will self correct if it does indeed exist.

[GJM]

OP, in case you missed it, I would carefully read (or reread) post #5.

[Lomshek]

I misremembered. The time from sear release to primer ignition is around 0.003 per this test. I am sure there can be movement but it has to be minuscule.


The problem is not the movement that happens in that tiny .003 seconds but the movement you don't realize you're making at the same time you're squeezing the trigger. What seems instantaneous to the shooter or an observer is actually plenty of time to move the gun off target. If you could place a 5000 FPS slow motion camera downrange you'd be able to watch the muzzle wonder off target as the trigger is pulled.

Think about how much a tiny sight adjustment moves the point of impact on target and then realize that you are moving the gun orders of magnitude more in the time from beginning to press the trigger back to actual primer ignition.

There are two different ball and dummy drills you can do to work through this.

First is the one Les already mentioned. Load a magazine 50/50 so that you know whether a round will be live or a dummy. This gives you the mental focus of "I know this is not a live round so I'll do it without flinch" to teach yourself what a proper trigger pull is like.

The other is to randomly insert a few dummies into a mag and do whatever drills you normally do. You won't know when the dummies will come. This will show you in glaringly painful detail just how bad you are jerking the gun. Whether you're doing Dot Torture, a Bill Drill or something else you can see where you're jerking the gun and hopefully correct that habit.

Do both of those drills slow fire before moving to rapid fire drills.

A couple things - You have to not blink when firing for this to have the most benefit. That means doing the drills to eliminate blinking like firing into the berm (no target) while observing the gun and sight and consciously keeping your eyes open.

If I jerk the gun during dummy drills I do 5 perfect trigger presses before I resume.

[Lomshek]

If you just pull the trigger straight you shouldn't have accuracy issues. Grip only affects recoil management (and as an observation my sights recoil all over, as long as they return you're good to go).

That's not all a good grip does.

A solid grip minimizes the effects of a bad trigger press. Sights will return to where I want them sooner and travel in a more predictable path with a more solid grip.

No downsides and lots of upsides to an ideal grip.

[Peally]

That's not all a good grip does.

A solid grip minimizes the effects of a bad trigger press. Sights will return to where I want them sooner and travel in a more predictable path with a more solid grip.

No downsides and lots of upsides to an ideal grip.

Recoil management definitely includes your sights.

Regardless, you can have a wimpy ass upside down pinky-on-trigger grip, and as long as you pull the trigger like you should that bullet will go where you're aiming.

[Joe in PNG]

I've found it can be worth dry firing at the range l, especially when live fire isn't going so well.

It sounds like clickbait, but a string of dry fire after a string of flinchy shots can cause almost instant improvement in the next group

[Lomshek]

Recoil management definitely includes your sights.

Regardless, you can have a wimpy ass upside down pinky-on-trigger grip, and as long as you pull the trigger like you should that bullet will go where you're aiming.

Absolutely but...a rock solid grip means the bad pull that would be a miss with a soft grip is just a left of center hit.

[Sal Picante]

Recoil management definitely includes your sights.

Regardless, you can have a wimpy ass upside down pinky-on-trigger grip, and as long as you pull the trigger like you should that bullet will go where you're aiming.

Dudes: Let's not confuse the OP. He's doing something wrong.

Looks like his aim isn't 1/2 bad with the .22, which is why stuff like gripping harder, working through and FUBAR flinches, etc. is probably a reasonable place for him to do work.

Just say'n.

[Doc_Glock]

OP, in case you missed it, I would carefully read (or reread) post #5.

I think there must be a blink involved for sure.

[Peally]

Dudes: Let's not confuse the OP. He's doing something wrong.

Looks like his aim isn't 1/2 bad with the .22, which is why stuff like gripping harder, working through and FUBAR flinches, etc. is probably a reasonable place for him to do work.

Just say'n.

I disagree, I want us to raise a GM that shoots upside down :cool:

[Doc_Glock]

Thanks for the input everyone. I got back to the range today and things went better. On Okie John's recommendation I kept it to 150 rounds. I have been having great dry fire sessions since the OP.

I did various slow fire marksmanship stuff. I was most happy with a dot torture at 3 yds

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170210/d5d4d13009078d75248e50da11ff8092.jpg

My SHO needs work, but my other groups were the tightest I have ever shot at this range despite a wobbly first dot.

I was able to concentrate on front sight and able to call several shots in the rear of the session. I was also able to see muzzle sparks well.

This is a walk back which I cleaned to 10 yards.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170210/e0474b4a49ab36cdacd28c2893de3781.jpg

I think my issue that started the OP was likely shooting more rounds than I could tolerate in too short a time. I got a little shell shocked and started blinking/flinching almost certainly.

With a couple days off and a calm mindset everything got a lot better.

[okie john]

With a couple days off and a calm mindset everything got a lot better.

Glad that worked out for you. I was definitely in the too-much-ain't-enough category for a long time, so I know easy it is to get locked into the idea that if 200 rounds is good, then 500 is better.

I also learned to schedule workouts with exercises that require a lot of grip strength (farmer's walks, chin-ups, deadlifts, etc) for AFTER range sessions, ideally on the following day. My hands and forearms need time to bounce back from that kind of work. Like Pat McNamara points out, there's no such thing as overtraining, but there is such a thing as under-recovering.


Okie John

[Jeff S.]

Here is a super easy and effective drill. (And two birds with one stone: see how your pistol cycles without the magazine)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxyTFzgWjhk&t=101s