What size groups can you shoot?

[Rmiked]

Being new, I am curious how accurate accomplished shooters are with a semi auto pistol. Obviously, the distance and number of shots would influence group size. Say 20 yards and 5 shots, what diameter circle would include all 5 shots? I am trying to establish some reasonable progress goals. I am assuming the pistol is being held and supported by the shooter in a standing position, not from a bench with bag rest. Thanks

[pastaslinger]

2"-3" @ 25 if I am doing well

Best ever was holes touching/sub 1" with a stock G26 @ 25 (benched though). I have shot way more expensive guns yet the best group was with a subcompact Glock, go figure.

[okie john]

Being new, I am curious how accurate accomplished shooters are with a semi auto pistol. Obviously, the distance and number of shots would influence group size. Say 20 yards and 5 shots, what diameter circle would include all 5 shots? I am trying to establish some reasonable progress goals. I am assuming the pistol is being held and supported by the shooter in a standing position, not from a bench with bag rest. Thanks

Depends on the gun, the load, and the day. My personal best is impressive but my on-demand performance is less so. For goals, start with getting five hits in four inches st 25 yards. Then knock an inch off and try for that. Keep going as long as you can stand it. You'll be surprised at how well you do if you keep at it--and how quickly you lose ground if you take a break.


Okie John

[Peally]

I can keep it within a USPSA A zone @ 25-30 yards. Never bothered trying to see how tight my actual grouping was, I've always been content with my current standard (unless I'm testing ammo).

[M2CattleCo]

I'm an honest 8" shooter most of the time. Very rarely better.

This is with a stock Sig P239 9mm or an H&K P2000 V2 LEM.

[rdtompki]

Just small enough to hit steel plates at speed

[Sterling Archer]

I'm curious to see what people can shoot offhand. My only experience is from a bench.

[Kirk]

Had my best ever ragged hole with a G17 stock barrel free style. I doubt I could repeat that frequently AT ALL. I don't even know if the gun could repeat that very much. Consistently? 2-3" at 25. I'm trying to get my 50 yard groups to that level, but that may take a new gun or barrel/ammo choice plus a lot more practice.

I need more speed on my transitions under match pressure. That's my current training priority.

[FrankinCA]

I'm an honest 8" shooter most of the time. Very rarely better.

This is with a stock Sig P239 9mm or an H&K P2000 V2 LEM.

I'm in the same range. I shoot a P239 better than a Glock 19

[BrettB]

The last completely stock gun I shot was a vp9. Multiple ~2" groups @ 25yds with Hst's, so I would consider that repeatable.

Best ever: 1.5" @ 36 yds (custom 2011 in .40 & handloaded ammo)

[HopetonBrown]

With a Glock 17, S3F barrel, and 115gr range ammo I can usually shoot a 6-8" group at 25 yards; it's still a work in progress. My best group was 2" with a guy's Kimber who said his sights were off.

13719

[RJ]

If I get 10 rounds slow fire on a 8 1/2 x 11 paper at 25 yards, I'm thrilled.

This is typical, 7 of 10 inside a 15x15 head box.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170207/2b9f1ff60a6fb4f0ebab2ca4af4e0895.jpg

I think the best B8 score I ever did was 83-0X.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

I can only recall the good groups I have shot.

[Nephrology]

On good days, ~5" at 25yd with a stock Glock and cheap practice ammo.

Lately, not nearly that well...


I can only recall the good groups I have shot.

Were only I so blessed...

[Kevin B.]

I have been shooting GEN4 Glocks recently and I find the trigger a bit more difficult for group shooting. A reasonable on demand group for me is <3". In terms of my goals, here are some groups that represent my goal when it comes to accuracy.

June 2014- issued G22, unsure on the ammunition; probably 180-grain Atlanta Arms
13723

August 2014- personal 1911, 25 rounds of 230-grain HST; fatigue set in toward the end.
13724

May 2016-personal G22 with a KKM barrel, 180-grain Ranger; five rounds at 50-yards
13725

Same gun & ammunition at 25 yards after a slight sight adjustment
13726

[orionz06]

Around 2"-3" with focus. I find myself far better at 15-20 than 25 assuming from 0-25 all things are linearly proportional. My eyes can get tired very quickly. If I have a secondary means of aiming things can get tighter but I don't own a gun that's better than 2" yet.

[GJM]

One reason I remember my good groups is I often take a picture of them!

Lately, I do slow fire group shooting mostly to test a gun/load and otherwise just enough to maintain my skills at it. What interests me more is shooting accuracy with time pressure. Last Thursday, YVK and I shot with Ernest, and he had us do the advanced Hackathorn drill, which has ten round strings at 15, 10 and 5. I was able to shoot each string in about 60 percent of the time limit.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5312_zpsdyp5x1yo.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5312_zpsdyp5x1yo.jpg.html)

Knowing I couldn't better that, on a second run, I decided to shoot it support hand only. I couldn't make the times, but was delighted with the accuracy.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5313_zpsgk8ergva.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5313_zpsgk8ergva.jpg.html)

[Kevin B.]

What interests me more is shooting accuracy with time pressure.

One of my favorite pistol drills is to shoot the first three stages of the 700-Point Aggregate with the goal being to keep the score for each stage within a couple of points of the others.

[LtDave]

I shoot a bunch of guns off the bench at 20 yards, using 5 shot groups to test accuracy and POA/POI with factory JHP and FMJ as well as handloads. I'm pleased with a gun that will shoot multiple loads at 1.5" or less. I don't think I've got any stock service pistols that won't hit that mark with at least one load. The really accurate pistols will shoot multiple loads into less than 1.5". The best groups I've ever shot were .625" (HK P30 v3) and .75" (Beretta 92 Type M). My eyes are getting a little tired so that may be a factor. I also find that it is harder for me to shoot tight groups with LEM trigger guns.

1.125" out of a P30, Winchester Ranger 124 grain +P bonded.
13743

[LtDave]

Found the target from the Beretta 92 Type M. Shot with Winchester 115 gr Value Pack:

13747

[richiecotite]

VP9 off hand. 25 yds indoors, load is an SNS casting 147 gr coated flat point over 4.0 gr of WSF.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj59/VSUslickrick/Mobile%20Uploads/EDC70766-1852-4F60-A5A1-20B7934603CD.png (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/VSUslickrick/media/Mobile%20Uploads/EDC70766-1852-4F60-A5A1-20B7934603CD.png.html)

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj59/VSUslickrick/Mobile%20Uploads/0D07057B-3BC4-4C36-9290-AE8B6E9668C4.png (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/VSUslickrick/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0D07057B-3BC4-4C36-9290-AE8B6E9668C4.png.html)

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj59/VSUslickrick/Mobile%20Uploads/B087D148-A37D-41B0-9F2A-7010BCB9CB79.png (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/VSUslickrick/media/Mobile%20Uploads/B087D148-A37D-41B0-9F2A-7010BCB9CB79.png.html)
I've only shot outdoors a few times, but I remember it being easier to see the target, etc outdoors than it is indoors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SsevenN]

My current best to date. http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/SsevenN_photo/FNS-9L%20group%201-29-17_zpsc45wnokk.jpg

I don't get to shoot nearly as much as I wish I could, it took me years to get here. I've been lurking here because I finally feel prepared to speed up my practical shooting.

[Rmiked]

Awesome shooting!

[M2CattleCo]

VP9 off hand. 25 yds indoors.
I've only shot outdoors a few times, but I remember it being easier to see the target, etc outdoors than it is indoors.

Even with good lighting, I find it hard to shoot indoors as well as I do outside. With the sun slightly to my back and a high overcast is when I do my best.

[okie john]

http://i.imgur.com/n1jWMfh.jpg (http://imgur.com/n1jWMfh)

The first five shots I put through my then-new Gen4 G17 went into 1.25" at 25 yards. Haven't done it since and don't expect to without plunging deep into a slow-fire training iteration that totally guts my ability to shoot well at speed.


Okie John

[fixer]

Glock 19, 17, 22, 23 I can keep all 5 shots in a 3-4" circle at 20 yds. For pure slow fire marksmanship, freestyle I'm more accurate with mid size glocks, and 40 calibers in general. These are with the stock Glock sights.

Beretta 92 in SA I can keep all shots in a 2-3" circle at 20 yds. In DA its more like 6-7" circle.

At 25 yds this opens up about 0.5 to 1.0 inches incrementally.

These are my on demand, expected, results. I've done better sometimes, and I've really stunk the joint up some other times.

Edited: I'll echo the other comments about indoors and less than perfect light conditions dramatically affecting accuracy. My 15 yd groups indoors are equal to my 25 yd groups outdoors.

[60167]

I'm intentionally avoiding answering the question because I suck.

I see a trend among the previous posts where group shooting at 20 yards and beyond is a highly perishable skill that comes at the cost of other types of shooting. I find that to be the case with me as well. I'm happy to hit a vertically oriented 3"x5" box at 25 yards with consistency while also maintaining the ability to shoot at speed at other distances. I can shoot better groups at the expense of my speed shooting. I can shoot faster at the expense of my groups. It's maddening.

I've been doing a lot of SHO and WHO shooting at 7-10 yards lately. I tried to see what group I could pull off at 50 yards today and was sorely disappointed.

[Hambo]

Even with good lighting, I find it hard to shoot indoors as well as I do outside.

Change targets if you're shooting indoors. I start and end shooting sessions with the Test. I can pass it indoors, but it's easier to put 10/10 on a 4x6" white note card than in the black of a B8. Outdoors the B8 is not a problem.

[orionz06]

Change targets if you're shooting indoors. I start and end shooting sessions with the Test. I can pass it indoors, but it's easier to put 10/10 on a 4x6" white note card than in the black of a B8. Outdoors the B8 is not a problem.

White index cards on brown backers work well for these times.

[RJ]

Change targets if you're shooting indoors. I start and end shooting sessions with the Test. I can pass it indoors, but it's easier to put 10/10 on a 4x6" white note card than in the black of a B8. Outdoors the B8 is not a problem.

Thanks, I'll give that a try next (indoor) range session.

[Appalachained]

The last time I tried @25 yards with my G19.4 (all stock except for sights) I was shooting 6" groups.

[Doc_Glock]

http://i.imgur.com/n1jWMfh.jpg (http://imgur.com/n1jWMfh)

The first five shots I put through my then-new Gen4 G17 went into 1.25" at 25 yards. Haven't done it since and don't expect to without plunging deep into a slow-fire training iteration that totally guts my ability to shoot well at speed.


Okie John

Do you see some sort of reciprocal relationship between your skills shooting fast and shooting accurately? Is this a common occurrence that when one works on speed, their slow accuracy suffers and vice versa?

[Up1911Fan]

Slow fire with a Gen4 G17 I expect myself to keep 10 rounds in the black of a B8 @ 25. Doesn't happen everytime, but more often than not.

[okie john]

Do you see some sort of reciprocal relationship between your skills shooting fast and shooting accurately? Is this a common occurrence that when one works on speed, their slow accuracy suffers and vice versa?

It has more to do with how much training time I have available. When I focus on accuracy, I don't have time to focus on speed. When I shoot long guns, I don't have time to shoot handguns. And so on.

Because of my interests and my time/range constraints, I plan my training year around fall hunting seasons, which looks like this:

SEP: Final prep, packing, etc.

OCT: Deer season

NOV: Elk season, which effectively ends at mid-month. I spend the rest of the month on cleaning/repairing/modifying gear, prepping for the holidays, making notes and AARs, etc. I also restart the defensive handgun program, as it gets dark at 4:30 this time of year and there's more time to shoot in low light. I also research and purchase multiple Christmas presents for myself based on what I needed when I was hunting.

DEC: Maintain work on the handgun program, start research and preliminary work solving long-gun issues identified in my AARs. Work with Christmas presents to see if they pan out.

JAN: Focus on handguns, especially in low light. Keep the long-gun program on simmer. Plan & scheme more hunting trips.

FEB: Focus on handguns, especially in low light, but focus on more advanced problems: El Pres/Bill Drill on the move in low light, etc. Start booking hunting trips.

MAR: Break out long guns, check zeros, start to look for problems. Dial down the handgun program a little.

APR: Start to solve any long-gun issues on the range.

MAY: Continue to work through long-gun issues, prepare to leave the range.

JUN, JUL, and AUG: Move off of the range and start shooting in the woods. WA has a lot of tree farms, so it's possible to basically rehearse hunts, work on shooting at unknown distances, range estimation/calculation, fast offhand shooting with scoped rifles, long moves over difficult terrain, land navigation, etc. without a rangemaster pissing in the soup. You just have to be willing to drive to a good training area.

Every trip to the range has a specific purpose, and I make notes based on whether I met my goals that day. Sometimes it's broad, like "shoot Snaps with the 30-06 for the first time in three months and see what happens ". Others are more focused, like "Shoot The Humbler with my carry gun".


If I had time to work on everything, I wouldn't have time to do anything else, which actually sounds like a lot of fun.


Okie John

[Doc_Glock]

You are crazy organized!

[okie john]

You are crazy organized!

Former military. This based on an old ODA training schedule. My old team sergeant was organized, and I learned it from him....


Okie John

[ASH556]

Lots of data and pics in this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12244-Freestyle-shooting-at-25-yds-revisited

I usually only shoot 10 shot groups. Here's my best:

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/80CE6AB0-7F03-4122-A0FF-A7FD0D2065DC.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/80CE6AB0-7F03-4122-A0FF-A7FD0D2065DC.jpg.html)

Here's what I can pretty much do on-demand (about 4" max spread):

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/BDF62ED7-1DAE-4443-A72F-8FE05DD44972.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/BDF62ED7-1DAE-4443-A72F-8FE05DD44972.jpg.html)

All of the above shot with a stock Gen 4 17 (factory minus connector added) standing two-hand freestyle at 25 yds.

[Rmiked]

I would say you are dialed in!

[Beendare]

Ok im officially the worst shot here.
15yds
With my TRP i can shoot 2"
G19-6-7"
USP compact9- 5"
M&P pro9- 5"
Heck i can shoot 3" groups at 40 yds with my compound and 3" groups at 25yd with my recurve..I'm.much better with a stick and string thats for sure ....

[Robert Mitchum]

I might start a Worst Targets at 25 yards... I have some classic bad shooting at 25 & 50 yard targets.
Not trying to post targets and say I am a good slow fire shooter at 25 yards .. truth is I have many bad days.

Every now and than I get into a zone .. but there are many times I suck at 25 yards.
I average in the low 90's week to week.

.. This is one of the best days I ever had at 25 yards.
9 Years ago with a Les Baer Monolith Heavyweight

25 yards Over 10 rounds

13803 13804


11-30-2015
HK 45 25 yards
13805

[Kirk]

Heck i can shoot 3" groups at 40 yds with my compound and 3" groups at 25yd with my recurve..I'm.much better with a stick and string thats for sure ....

That is awesome! 3" at 25 yards with a recurve is crazy to me, props.

[David S.]

I usually only shoot 10 shot groups. Here's my best:

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/80CE6AB0-7F03-4122-A0FF-A7FD0D2065DC.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/80CE6AB0-7F03-4122-A0FF-A7FD0D2065DC.jpg.html)


Not bad work from a gun with no front sight. Pincus would be proud. ;)

[camsdaddy]

I never shoot paper at 25 yards. I have a hard time focusing on a small target but find plates easier. I shoot plates a lot at 25 yards and am happy with 4" round falling plates or the 6" stationary one. I shoot every gun with the same expectations be it my S&W 2" model 60, my glock 19 or 43.
If I want to be honest I probably put too much stock in shooting at 20-25 yards.

[Jason Burton]

Shooting groups is something I get to (have to) do all the time. I shoot everything from standing with a minimum of 5 rounds at 25 yards.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3669/32025943133_e95cd587c0_c.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/553/32333255112_4b6f74de98_c.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/545/31765343385_6ce337deda_c.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3896/32460064140_8aed46a779_c.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5668/30726577250_6efb124eca_c.jpg


More often than not, regardless of the platform, the guns are more capable than the shooter. I shot this group from a Springfield LB Operator with the only modification being a trigger job which was a must have.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2369/32840993715_3b8da270dc_c.jpg

[That Guy]

I'd like to say that I can do better, but this is what I did today on demand. Range is 25 meters (27 yards), windchill and moisture made the weather feel much colder than the thermometer claimed, and I had a grand total of one 66 round range trip last month under my belt for this year - so you could say I shot these two groups pretty damn cold. :p Gun was my PX4 and ammo 115gr Fiocchi 9mm.

13883

13884

[Duces Tecum]

Being new, I am curious how accurate accomplished shooters are with a semi auto pistol. Obviously, the distance and number of shots would influence group size. Say 20 yards and 5 shots, what diameter circle would include all 5 shots? I am trying to establish some reasonable progress goals. I am assuming the pistol is being held and supported by the shooter in a standing position, not from a bench with bag rest. Thanks

This is, I think, a great question and I'd like a chance to comment (and possibly to contribute) from the perspective that accuracy is intimately connected with time and distance.

For me, and other people might have different mileage, at any given distance group size is dependent on the time I have to get all the shots off. If I'm testing for small groups at a given distance, I throw time out the window and fire a shot only when as many elements as possible are in near-perfect alignment. If I'm being chased by a pre-menstural tribble, screw group size: put a couple of rounds where they will do the most good and move on. The point here is that group size is inverse to time. As time increases, groups shrink. As time runs out, groups open.

Again, for me, neither bughole groups nor nano second splits are useful or even interesting by themselves. I don't work on the tails of the probability curve. I want to be right there smack in the middle between the extremes, where at a given distance speed and accuracy intersect, where I can hope to hit my target at a useful spot in the time available, without actually knowing how much time is available.

My first real instructor, Mike Harries, drilled into my head the concept that (a) if you miss, it's a bad thing; (b) if he shoots you first, it's a very bad thing. Mike was a great one to balance speed against accuracy. One of his approaches was to draw a fist-sized target on the cardboard and to require the student to put each round within that heart-sized area as fast as possible. As the groups shrunk, Mike would decrease the time (or increase the distance). If the groups opened up, Mike would generally decrease the distance, but sometimes he'd increase the time. The purpose of this drill was to develop both accuracy and speed from ever-greater distances. The issue was never, "How small a group of five can you shoot", but rather "How small a group of five can you shoot in three seconds from ten yards."

Regardless of how your position evolves on the importance of small groups, Rmiked, I hope you'll consider the possibility that, in a very meaningful way, time, accuracy and distance are (to borrow a phrase from Warren Buffett) joined at a common hip.

[blues]

My first real instructor, Mike Harries, drilled into my head the concept that (a) if you miss, it's a bad thing; (b) if he shoots you first, it's a very bad thing. Mike was a great one to balance speed against accuracy. One of his approaches was to draw a fist-sized target on the cardboard and to require the student to put each round within that heart-sized area as fast as possible. As the groups shrunk, Mike would decrease the time (or increase the distance). If the groups opened up, Mike would generally decrease the distance, but sometimes he'd increase the time. The purpose of this drill was to develop both accuracy and speed from ever-greater distances. The issue was never, "How small a group of five can you shoot", but rather "How small a group of five can you shoot in three seconds from ten yards."

Regardless of how your position evolves on the importance of small groups, Rmiked, I hope you'll consider the possibility that, in a very meaningful way, time, accuracy and distance are (to borrow a phrase from Warren Buffett) joined at a common hip.

Wise advice. This pretty much sums up the way I always approached my training, even when I got into some heated arguments with a FLETC instructor in Marana, AZ over that approach.

So, DT, should I presume to know how you hold your flashlight? ;)

[45dotACP]

In one of Ben Stoeger's podcasts he says that a good starting point is being able to go 10/10 on a USPSA A-zone at 20 yards with no time limit.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Rex G]

Perhaps I should have measured some of my groups, back in the day. I can no longer see well enough to be an "accomplished shooter." Things may get better when I finally mount an optic on a handgun.

[CCT125US]

HK P2000 V2 GDHP 124 +P
50yds 2/2
Trijicon 3 dot using drive the dot
Hits 2-1/2 high
I called it quits after this

13903

[SLG]

I think of accuracy in two ways. There is the Mike Harries way, as mentioned by Duces Tucem. I consider this to be practical accuracy.

The other form is pure accuracy, which removes time from the equation. Neither of these forms involve rests, machines, or anything else. Rests and machines and lasers test the gun and ammo, not the shooter, assuming they are used correctly.

Pure accuracy is tested standing, freestyle. It is the best accuracy you are capable of. It has no real application off the range, but it is a foundation for all kinds of shooting.

Neither should be ignored, imo.

[JAD]

Five round groups are fun.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170213/69e438abebe23c3f2a529ffe33855f3e.jpg

10 round groups are work.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170213/3e8578872f36336f1782fd922bfbef57.jpg