View Full Version : Carry Optics loses the 10 round limit.
A good thing, or be careful what you wish for? Time will tell. https://uspsa.org/bodminutes/20170121.pdf
Good thing. Now if they'd just allow AIWB from concealment I'd be a really happy man.
orionz06
01-29-2017, 10:18 PM
Welfare open near tax return season?
This would make me seriously happy.
Good thing. They need to do something similar for production (or at least go to 15 round limit like international rules.
I don't see how this is good. No one will carry a 140 aiwb concealed (looking at Lon:-) The name itself is silly, it should have been production optics, or something like that. Next will be Limited Optics, so the 1911's can play.
... No one will carry a 140 aiwb concealed (looking at Lon:-) ......
You got me there. I wouldn't carry the 140mm aiwb except to game a stage. And even then I'd still have to do a reload on most field courses at big matches. I'd much rather they have changed the rules to factory length/capacity magazines, whatever that might be and allow AIWB from concealment.
I would consider carrying the 140mm as a reload. Didn't really pay attention to them til today and realized they140mm hold 24 rds. I carry the P09 mag every day as a reload for my P07 carry gun.
You got me there. I wouldn't carry the 140mm aiwb except to game a stage. And even then I'd still have to do a reload on most field courses at big matches. I'd much rather they have changed the rules to factory length/capacity magazines, whatever that might be and allow AIWB from concealment.
I would consider carrying the 140mm as a reload. Didn't really pay attention to them til today and realized they140mm hold 24 rds. I carry the P09 mag every day as a reload for my P07 carry gun.
That's what I wish as well. The concept of "carry" has no place in USPSA, and this simply reinforces that.
That's what I wish as well. The concept of "carry" has no place in USPSA, and this simply reinforces that.
You're right. I'll probably just keep shooting open at local matches so I can run what I carry.
Edwin
01-30-2017, 01:52 AM
I wish they didn't choose the 140mm mag. I'd prefer allowing AIWB and fully loaded flush fit mags.
I don't see how this is good. No one will carry a 140 aiwb concealed (looking at Lon:-) The name itself is silly, it should have been production optics, or something like that. Next will be Limited Optics, so the 1911's can play.
That is why I said it may be something like be careful what you wish for. It will just become Open light. I have already seen tons of people saying now they will compete in this division. This tells me it actually being a "carry" division is a silly thought. On the other hand, as a business decision it is probably a good idea as it will bring more shooters.
Look, I only occasionally shoot Production, so take this for what you paid for it... do you really think it will bring more shooters, or will it just add more slots and options for people who already shoot uspsa? Seems like the 10 round limit is a good way to let production shooters with aging eyes keep going. Adding 140mm mags means many interesting production guns won't be competitive due to lack of mag availability, or at least without spending some coin on the new mags.
No opinion as to whether this magazine change will bring more shooters, whether 140mm is the right size limit, or if the name is silly. However, as someone who started shooting CO last March, the easing of the ten round restriction feels like we are allowed to leave the kids table and eat with the grown ups.
I recently decided to have an open gun built, and that decision was primarily driven by wanting to have an optic and more than ten rounds. Wish the change came a few months ago, as I might not have made that decision.
orionz06
01-30-2017, 08:31 AM
I recently decided to have an open gun built
Details or link? Curious what you'd have built.
rob_s
01-30-2017, 08:47 AM
I liked the 10 round limit, and it's one of the things I like about Production. I like the different dynamic that the frequent reloads bring to the division(s).
I think way too many people get way to wrapped up in mag capacity at games, and most often because they're getting lost in some sort of "brecause:real world" bs.
You're right. I'll probably just keep shooting open at local matches so I can run what I carry.
Just curious, what do you carry?
Aside from personal preferences ( I prefer lots of reloads in a stage), it seems to me that USPSA is run by a bunch of old guys who don't care what the membership thinks. Some of you may prefer full capacity, others may not. Either way, changing rules so soon before nationals seems like a bad idea. I guess they haven't paid much attention to the failures in IDPA and it's rule changes.
Just curious, what do you carry?
Aside from personal preferences ( I prefer lots of reloads in a stage), it seems to me that USPSA is run by a bunch of old guys who don't care what the membership thinks. Some of you may prefer full capacity, others may not. Either way, changing rules so soon before nationals seems like a bad idea. I guess they haven't paid much attention to the failures in IDPA and it's rule changes.
I am new to competing so I stand to be corrected, since Carry Optics is provisional it is more subject to rules changes. If I understand correctly in the regular classes they have rules on how often you can change, the rules. (Sorry, that smelled of Austin Powers)
4gallonbucket
01-30-2017, 11:07 AM
You're right. I'll probably just keep shooting open at local matches so I can run what I carry.
Me too. I'm trying to find where AIWB is outlawed in the document referenced by the OP. I've never competed, but I'm thinking about trying it this year. It was my understanding that IDPA outlawed appendix carry, but USPCA allowed it. Am I wrong about this?
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busdriver
01-30-2017, 11:23 AM
Appendix is legal in limited division.
CO uses production guns/ holster positions.
Rules changes for non provisional divisions are every two years max.
GuanoLoco
01-30-2017, 11:30 AM
No opinion as to whether this magazine change will bring more shooters, whether 140mm is the right size limit, or if the name is silly. However, as someone who started shooting CO last March, the easing of the ten round restriction feels like we are allowed to leave the kids table and eat with the grown ups.
I recently decided to have an open gun built, and that decision was primarily driven by wanting to have an optic and more than ten rounds. Wish the change came a few months ago, as I might not have made that decision.
As a Production shooter I liked the 10 round CO limit, but I could see where that is not in line with the other things that attract people to Carry Optics (but not necessarily all the way to Open).
As much as I would like to shoot AIWB in competition, the idea of the general masses taking off from a start position and drawing from AIWB on the move to engage a target 1-6 steps away gives me pause. What could go wrong?
45dotACP
01-30-2017, 12:11 PM
Wait...Were all the carry optics guys running from concealment already?
Welfare open indeed.
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Wait...Were all the carry optics guys running from concealment already?
Welfare open indeed.
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It is Open lite, just like PCC is long gun lite. Around here, all the action is in Limited, Open and PCC. It will be interesting to see if this boosts CO participation from me and the four others I know shooting it, to larger numbers.
Here you go, just $19.99 to comply with the equipment race:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5258_zpsucpdxmuo.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5258_zpsucpdxmuo.jpg.html)
45dotACP
01-30-2017, 12:59 PM
A shooter around here has started shooting PCC pretty heavily and I usually see one or two CO guys. Not gonna lie, I sorta wanna play. A MOS glock might be in my future at some point.
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rob_s
01-30-2017, 01:52 PM
A shooter around here has started shooting PCC pretty heavily and I usually see one or two CO guys. Not gonna lie, I sorta wanna play. A MOS glock might be in my future at some point.
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I'm considering one too. Eyesight isn't getting any better, and not interested in going open.
Just curious, what do you carry?
For the most part I carry an RMR'ed P07 in a JMCK AIWB. With a different mag than the one in the pic. I use a flush fit 16rd. Cover garment depends on weather. Polo or sweatshirt. Never an open front garment.
13540
We have an indoor Monday match around here. Quick 72 Rd match (3-24 Rd stages). I usually shoot my carry or duty gear. Outdoor matches I most of the time run gamer gear. Except Ft Benning 3 Gun this year. I ran my P07 in my carry gear. No chance of me beating Miculek or the other Open top shooters so I was just shooting for fun.
Carry Optics with a 140mm mag, LOL.
It's a GO, Geriatric Open. Can't see the sights, need a dot. Can't reload, need a huge mag. Can't afford an open gun on social security check. I'd allow CO shooters to park in handicapped spots and have junior shooters carry their bags. We should respect our elders.
Norville
01-30-2017, 07:18 PM
I heard this yesterday at an indoor match. There were 24 shooters, 8 Open and 9 Limited so there were two stages where 17 shooters did not reload while the Production guys and lone CO shooter reloaded 1 or 2 times. Match was won by a B Open, second place by U CO so I'm not sure it is a huge issue one way or the other.
Time to order a few 140s though so I stay gamer cool. PMags and ETS won't break the bank as noted above.
ETA: I'm not that old.
busdriver
01-30-2017, 07:50 PM
Not having to reload isn't really about not having to reload. That sounds dumb, I'm sure. What it does do it open up options for accepting a bit more risk in a stage plan. Shooting on the move can be much more aggressive with a dot. But only having ten rounds in the gun makes it very, very risky when there's steel on the stage.
Carry Optics with a 140mm mag, LOL.
It's a GO, Geriatric Open. Can't see the sights, need a dot. Can't reload, need a huge mag. Can't afford an open gun on social security check. I'd allow CO shooters to park in handicapped spots and have junior shooters carry their bags. We should respect our elders.
I am confused -- does this mean you do or do not still want to shoot my CO pistol on Thursday?
Only with hope that those PMags won't make it there yet.
You think those extended mags can be coupled together to sub as a walking stick?
45dotACP
01-30-2017, 09:29 PM
Only with hope that those PMags won't make it there yet.
You think those extended mags can be coupled together to sub as a walking stick?
Layin down the szick burns...
Carry Optics with a 140mm mag, LOL.
It's a GO, Geriatric Open. Can't see the sights, need a dot. Can't reload, need a huge mag. Can't afford an open gun on social security check. I'd allow CO shooters to park in handicapped spots and have junior shooters carry their bags. We should respect our elders.
Well I don't know. I shoot Carry Optics because that is what I carry, buuuut, from what I hear and read, I am in the minority.
orionz06
01-30-2017, 10:18 PM
http://i.imgur.com/8FeKF2T.png
Well I don't know. I shoot Carry Optics because that is what I carry, buuuut, from what I hear and read, I am in the minority.
How many people shoot CO in your neck of the woods? Locally, it may very well not exist at all, no one will notice.
I liked the idea of it when it was introduced and I love the fact that folks like yourself have an avenue to shoot what you carry. I just feel that every rule change has taken it farther and farther away from CO to Open Minor. I was considering it at some point, now I am actually less inclined than before all the changes.
fatdog
01-31-2017, 06:49 AM
...farther and farther away from CO to Open Minor.
I bit this year and set up an MOS Glock with a Deltapoint Pro for CO, mainly just to try something new. One of my long time buddies in the sport calls it my Fauxpen gun.
How many people shoot CO in your neck of the woods? Locally, it may very well not exist at all, no one will notice.
I liked the idea of it when it was introduced and I love the fact that folks like yourself have an avenue to shoot what you carry. I just feel that every rule change has taken it farther and farther away from CO to Open Minor. I was considering it at some point, now I am actually less inclined than before all the changes.
Not many shoot it. Usually 5 or so in the few matches I have been to. I see a lot of people talk about it though.
As far as your second paragraph, I agree. Then I have to remind myself that it is the USPSA, and a game that is not trying to replicate real life. I am just there to improve my overall shooting skills. Do I wish that I could shoot it like I carry (AIWB) without having to go into Open? Absolutely, but again the game isn't about me and my needs or wants and I am sure to be in a very small minority so I just try to fit where I best can and put in the work to improve.
Lomshek
01-31-2017, 09:55 AM
I don't see how this is good. No one will carry a 140 aiwb concealed (looking at Lon:-) The name itself is silly, it should have been production optics, or something like that. Next will be Limited Optics, so the 1911's can play.Limited Optics is probably what it should have been from the start and where it's heading. It wouldn't surprise me if a year from now they make some kind of allowance for small compensators to allow Roland'esque rigs. Maybe a box to restrict overall size just to drive folks nuts.
I wish they didn't choose the 140mm mag. I'd prefer allowing AIWB and fully loaded flush fit mags.The problem with that is the definition of flush fit. Are we talking flush fit like a 7 round 1911 steel base plate mag or something that is not actually flush fit?
It would become the eternal "two more rounds" argument.
USPSA is already a long way from realistic carry setups and it's really not the game for that. It's a sport about shooting fast/accurate. Sure some guys use their exact carry gear, AIWB holsters, closed from concealment holsters, etc, but that is not how the sport is designed to be played nor how the majority play it.
Carry Optics has been an extremely low participation division from the start. I think the primary reason for that is because there is nothing different enough between it and production to cause shooters to want to switch to it unless they are using an optic for concealed carry, which is already a very low percentage of the shooting community. Going to 140mm mags though really sets carry optics apart from any other division for one reason: you can shoot high capacity minor power factor (and be competitive within your division). From a game/sport standpoint, this gives the division a uniqueness that could cause shooters already in the sport to migrate to.
Nachos
03-26-2017, 09:33 PM
Limited Optics is probably what it should have been from the start and where it's heading. It wouldn't surprise me if a year from now they make some kind of allowance for small compensators to allow Roland'esque rigs. Maybe a box to restrict overall size just to drive folks nuts.
The problem with that is the definition of flush fit. Are we talking flush fit like a 7 round 1911 steel base plate mag or something that is not actually flush fit?
It would become the eternal "two more rounds" argument.
You're describing the now defunct IPSC modified division.
2017 USPSA Optics Nationals just finished up. Carry Optics had 72, Open 183, and PCC 85 competitors.
CleverNickname
03-26-2017, 09:41 PM
Limited Optics is probably what it should have been from the start and where it's heading. It wouldn't surprise me if a year from now they make some kind of allowance for small compensators to allow Roland'esque rigs. Maybe a box to restrict overall size just to drive folks nuts.
I'd much rather see the ability to use carry-sized magwells. Not the big honkin' Limited or Open-sized magwells, but something that's still theoretically carryable. I don't know the best way to specify it, maybe a maximum width and length for the magwell, or maximum width more than the factory magwell? And making it so the gun still has to weigh under the 45oz limit will help to limit the size of the magwell somewhat.
2017 USPSA Optics Nationals just finished up. Carry Optics had 72, Open 183, and PCC 85 competitors.
I thought that there would be more. 2017 Single Stack Nationals has 390 spots, all full.
taadski
03-27-2017, 09:18 AM
I thought that there would be more. 2017 Single Stack Nationals has 390 spots, all full.
When you consider, for example, the 2016 Open Nationals only had 170ish competitors (and another 30 or so in limited 10), perhaps the argument that the two new divisions are going to dilute the playing field isn't holding water? IDK. Between the two, adding another couple hundred competitors to this year's Nationals certainly isn't a negative thing for the sport.
Re the mag capacity thing, I'd much preferred they'd left the division "Production Optics" and maintained the 10 round limit. But that's just me being selfish mostly, being primarily a Production shooter and wanting to have stages break down similarly and to be able to compare results more cleanly. (shrug).
Bart Carter
03-27-2017, 10:10 AM
I shoot CO because of my eyesight and it's what I carry. If there was no CO, I would just shoot open. I am not going to any national competition one way or the other.
45dotACP
03-27-2017, 12:30 PM
Fairly impressive the difference between the top open shooter and the top carry optics shooter this year.
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taadski
03-27-2017, 01:12 PM
Impressive that they were within 15%? Or impressive they weren't more behind the curve than that?
IME, there's a GIANT difference between a correctly set up open gun and and your random production pistol with an optic plopped on top. I think that Max shooting 86% of the open winner with a 320 is a pretty impressive feat. And gives us a pretty good look at the relative shootability of the two pistol types.
Special hats off to Hwansik for putting together such a solid performance too!
When you consider, for example, the 2016 Open Nationals only had 170ish competitors (and another 30 or so in limited 10), perhaps the argument that the two new divisions are going to dilute the playing field isn't holding water? IDK. Between the two, adding another couple hundred competitors to this year's Nationals certainly isn't a negative thing for the sport.
I was just ribbing GJM who keeps pointing out how PCC is the next big thing.
Re the mag capacity thing, I'd much preferred they'd left the division "Production Optics" and maintained the 10 round limit. But that's just me being selfish mostly, being primarily a Production shooter and wanting to have stages break down similarly and to be able to compare results more cleanly. (shrug).
They sort of had to. Five CO shooters at an Area match under old rules was kind of indicative. Now I see a little spike in interest that I hope will carry further. In fact, I myself am interested somewhat.
theblacknight
03-27-2017, 09:06 PM
I'm a serious production shooter. Trying to make GM this year. Hated the idea of what "Production Optics" was trying to be and didn't like the people who first where pushing the idea acting like they were epic visionaries trying to light the way for the luddites.
As it stands right now, Carry Optics would be the only division I would seriously consider shooting for a "winter division". I've been shooting production for 5 years now and while I'm not going to any other division, the 10 round limit is now a lot like reloading ammo, the novelty is gone, it's just a chore now. Someone could get a 17 or 34 MOS, a RMR, 4 140mm magpul gmags and fucking do it up. Fuck any other division because of expense. I have no inclination to try to find enough 40 brass to make a run at Limited. I get brass for $free$ from my local range as they sponsor me. .40 brass is maybe 1/8th of the common duty calibers I get when I sort out everything else and take mah 9mm. 45 is more common then 40 right now. My agency just switched to 9mm locally also.
Calling Carry Optics "poverty open" or similar is very easy and trendy, but its a division where you can buy a off the shelf gun, loctite your red dot on, get some 140mm magpul mags and go. Is it really comparable to Open from a logistics and support stand point? What kind of powder do you need for your carry optics load? Its 9mm, you can use all of them. The same for Open? HELL NO. In Open, you have 9mm Kaboom and 38 Stupid. Your powder choice for 9mm major is limited and while 38 super is sweet on the gun and easier to reload, the brass is expensive. How much does a proper open gun cost x2 because if you shoot open, you either have 1 gun and don't care about finishing a major, or you do care and you have a 2nd gun.
Like was pointed out, even the fucking Europeans shoot 15 rounds per mag in production, and they are scared of guns! Hell, they have a lot harder stages in IPSC also, as Europeans are not afraid of higher accuracy and more stage movement.
Does anyone have a link to the Optic Nationals Scores?
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Does anyone have a link to the Optic Nationals Scores?
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https://practiscore.com/results/new/33368?q_individual=0
I'm a serious production shooter. Trying to make GM this year. Hated the idea of what "Production Optics" was trying to be and didn't like the people who first where pushing the idea acting like they were epic visionaries trying to light the way for the luddites.
As it stands right now, Carry Optics would be the only division I would seriously consider shooting for a "winter division". I've been shooting production for 5 years now and while I'm not going to any other division, the 10 round limit is now a lot like reloading ammo, the novelty is gone, it's just a chore now. Someone could get a 17 or 34 MOS, a RMR, 4 140mm magpul gmags and fucking do it up. Fuck any other division because of expense. I have no inclination to try to find enough 40 brass to make a run at Limited. I get brass for $free$ from my local range as they sponsor me. .40 brass is maybe 1/8th of the common duty calibers I get when I sort out everything else and take mah 9mm. 45 is more common then 40 right now. My agency just switched to 9mm locally also.
Calling Carry Optics "poverty open" or similar is very easy and trendy, but its a division where you can buy a off the shelf gun, loctite your red dot on, get some 140mm magpul mags and go. Is it really comparable to Open from a logistics and support stand point? What kind of powder do you need for your carry optics load? Its 9mm, you can use all of them. The same for Open? HELL NO. In Open, you have 9mm Kaboom and 38 Stupid. Your powder choice for 9mm major is limited and while 38 super is sweet on the gun and easier to reload, the brass is expensive. How much does a proper open gun cost x2 because if you shoot open, you either have 1 gun and don't care about finishing a major, or you do care and you have a 2nd gun.
Like was pointed out, even the fucking Europeans shoot 15 rounds per mag in production, and they are scared of guns! Hell, they have a lot harder stages in IPSC also, as Europeans are not afraid of higher accuracy and more stage movement.
I really enjoy Carry Optics, especially with the change to 140mm magazines. If you want to make GM, CO is not the division for you. The hit factors are crazy hard, and there is only one shooter in all of USPSA with a GM classification average, and that is only 96 percent.
https://www.uspsa.org/top20.php
45dotACP
03-28-2017, 12:55 AM
https://practiscore.com/results/new/33368?q_individual=0
I really enjoy Carry Optics, especially with the change to 140mm magazines. If you want to make GM, CO is not the division for you. The hit factors are crazy hard, and there is only one shooter in all of USPSA with a GM classification average, and that is only 96 percent.
https://www.uspsa.org/top20.php
Hmmm, because of low participation or did HQ overestimate the effect a red dot has on HF's?
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https://practiscore.com/results/new/33368?q_individual=0
I really enjoy Carry Optics, especially with the change to 140mm magazines. If you want to make GM, CO is not the division for you. The hit factors are crazy hard, and there is only one shooter in all of USPSA with a GM classification average, and that is only 96 percent.
https://www.uspsa.org/top20.php
Thank you. It seems like all the top CO guys are shooting striker fired guns. Lots of sigs in there.
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Hmmm, because of low participation or did HQ overestimate the effect a red dot has on HF's?
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The hit factors are significantly harder for CO. You can look at individual classifier hit factors here:
https://azshooters.org/
USPSA Prez Foley, recently mentioned they are looking at hit factors for CO. When Nils and KC Eusebio are only M in CO and Hwansik Kim, the guy that nearly won the CO Nationals is just an A with an 80 percent average, it is clear something is amiss.
guymontag
03-28-2017, 07:31 AM
Does anyone know what guns were shot for the top ten? Did the competitors use shorter slides/barrels that are touted on here?
And I heard a Walther made it up pretty high on the list, I guess it's pretty shootable and not too much of a "special snowflake" gun?
Does anyone know what guns were shot for the top ten? Did the competitors use shorter slides/barrels that are touted on here?
And I heard a Walther made it up pretty high on the list, I guess it's pretty shootable and not too much of a "special snowflake" gun?
I believe number one was Max with a 320 and Romeo 1, two was Hwansik with a PPQ and DP Pro, and three was Shane with a 34 MOS and DP Pro.
Hwansik says his PPQ is completely stock, aside from a front sight. Gives me lols about how people say that PPQ trigger is not too light for carry, but that's another story.
I'd imagine that # 7 Nils shot a Glock and # 5 Phil shot a Sig.
4. Sig sponsored shooter
5. Sig p320
6. M&P
7. Glock
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45dotACP
03-28-2017, 10:09 AM
No Canik TP9? Humbug.
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Edwin
03-28-2017, 10:25 AM
No Canik TP9? Humbug.
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lol, is that a serious question/comment?
45dotACP
03-28-2017, 10:35 AM
lol, is that a serious question/comment?
Needz moar smilies to convey the (sarc)
theblacknight
03-28-2017, 05:51 PM
Reminder: 140mm mags were always legal for Carry Optics, they where just limited to ten rounds.
olstyn
03-28-2017, 05:58 PM
Hwansik says his PPQ is completely stock, aside from a front sight. Gives me lols about how people say that PPQ trigger is not too light for carry, but that's another story.
It could also mean that Hwansik is just that good. Of course, I always feel like the single action on my P99 is not something I'd be terribly comfortable carrying if it weren't for the DA first shot, so I guess I probably agree with you. :)
guymontag
03-28-2017, 06:08 PM
Calling Carry Optics "poverty open" or similar is very easy and trendy, but its a division where you can buy a off the shelf gun, loctite your red dot on, get some 140mm magpul mags and go. Is it really comparable to Open from a logistics and support stand point? What kind of powder do you need for your carry optics load? Its 9mm, you can use all of them. The same for Open? HELL NO. In Open, you have 9mm Kaboom and 38 Stupid. Your powder choice for 9mm major is limited and while 38 super is sweet on the gun and easier to reload, the brass is expensive. How much does a proper open gun cost x2 because if you shoot open, you either have 1 gun and don't care about finishing a major, or you do care and you have a 2nd gun.
Don't forget: tuning your feedlips on your mags and brushing them out between every stage, and doing the unfuck dance whenever your $2K gun shits the bed in the middle of a stage.
I'll just be interested in seeing what guns come out as the favorites for CO, as I think more competitors are shooting the long slide models of guns and not the compacts. By the way, is CO still provisional or is it finally official? I'm not going to lay out the scratch for a nice gun if the division can still be taken away.
45dotACP
03-28-2017, 06:11 PM
Hwansik says his PPQ is completely stock, aside from a front sight. Gives me lols about how people say that PPQ trigger is not too light for carry, but that's another story.
I'd imagine that # 7 Nils shot a Glock and # 5 Phil shot a Sig.
Not to drift the thread too much...But would that also mean you'd be uncomfortable carrying a Glock 34 or SIG 320?
Personally, the 320 and PPQ I looked at a few months ago did seem like the triggers were pretty light...And pretty dang short as well and I'd feel weird carrying them too...But is there a hard point where the "better trigger" makes a difference...Good or bad...And where does the shooters skill just render that point moot?
Not to drift the thread too much...But would that also mean you'd be uncomfortable carrying a Glock 34 or SIG 320?
I'd be OK to carry a stock 34 and SIG 320 in a non-AIWB position, or SCD'd 34 or manual safety 320 in any position.
I highly doubt that 34s and 320s shot at that match were stock though. TTI and Grayguns affiliations and such. Would bet 1000 rubles that Hwansik and his stock Q5 were shooting against 3.5 lbs trigger pull 320s, 34s and MPs.
Hard to say where at shooter's skill level the hardware becomes irrelevant but I doubt that dudes who compete for overall win are agnostic of competitive advantages or disadvantages. Hwansik shot Stock 2 in Production; that tells me he is not above getting the best tool for the job.
Doc_Glock
03-28-2017, 09:20 PM
Not to drift the thread too much...But would that also mean you'd be uncomfortable carrying a Glock 34 or SIG 320?
Personally, the 320 and PPQ I looked at a few months ago did seem like the triggers were pretty light...And pretty dang short as well and I'd feel weird carrying them too...But is there a hard point where the "better trigger" makes a difference...Good or bad...And where does the shooters skill just render that point moot?
For reference, a Stock P320 has a 7 lb trigger, the G 34 5.5 lbs and the PPQ 4lb at least my examples do.
The 320 feels much lighter subjectively.
Looks interesting:
http://www.waltherarms.com/handguns/q5-match/
Looks interesting:
http://www.waltherarms.com/handguns/q5-match/
Like most of it, except the push button mag release.
Wonder how long till the VP9 optic rest rolls out?
Bart Carter
03-29-2017, 10:18 AM
For reference, a Stock P320 has a 7 lb trigger, the G 34 5.5 lbs and the PPQ 4lb at least my examples do.
The 320 feels much lighter subjectively.
FWIW, I have many PPQs. 4", 5", M1, M2, Navy, .45, Q5. Some of those in multiples. Every one of them with stock triggers and all of them are over 5 pounds. The PPQ trigger feels lighter than Glock, etc. because the trigger is just better. Does anyone say you shouldn't carry a 1911 with a 5 pound trigger?
Bart Carter
03-29-2017, 10:21 AM
Like most of it, except the push button mag release.
Wonder how long till the VP9 optic rest rolls out?
The slides for paddle and button are the same. My Q5 resides on an M1 paddle lower. I don't know the legality of this for competition, but I shoot for the fun and training.
45dotACP
03-29-2017, 03:30 PM
Broke down and got a Glock 17 MOS. Interested to give the red dot thing a try. On the off chance I hate it...Any iron sight recommendations? The dovetail seems a little further back to make room for the mounting plates and I always used Warrens.
I'd be interested to see how the carry optics division revamp affects the hit factors. I'd be really interested to see how it compares to a production hit factor, but I suspect that now the 10 round limit was 86'ed there will never be a truly fair comparison unless we're looking at classifiers.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Broke down and got a Glock 17 MOS. Interested to give the red dot thing a try. On the off chance I hate it...Any iron sight recommendations? The dovetail seems a little further back to make room for the mounting plates and I always used Warrens.
I'd be interested to see how the carry optics division revamp affects the hit factors. I'd be really interested to see how it compares to a production hit factor, but I suspect that now the 10 round limit was 86'ed there will never be a truly fair comparison unless we're looking at classifiers.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
I used Ameriglo suppressor sights on my 19 MOS. would think that anything with a simple rear would work.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170329/e081b5340f07941b50d2901d1983322a.jpg
Broke down and got a Glock 17 MOS. Interested to give the red dot thing a try. On the off chance I hate it...Any iron sight recommendations? The dovetail seems a little further back to make room for the mounting plates and I always used Warrens.
I'd be interested to see how the carry optics division revamp affects the hit factors. I'd be really interested to see how it compares to a production hit factor, but I suspect that now the 10 round limit was 86'ed there will never be a truly fair comparison unless we're looking at classifiers.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
If you want to run just irons, you might consider the 10-8 rear made for the MOS paired with the new HD XR front.
Five shots into stage 3 at a USPSA match today, shooting a Q5 with a Delta Point Pro, my battery died, causing me to zero the stage. Battery is about two weeks old.
Great optic with horrendously poor battery life. Using various other optics on my carbines, in PCC, I got out of changing the battery before every match. Really is a necessity with the DP Pro, based on my experience.
Leupold should be ashamed of this.
Five shots into stage 3 at a USPSA match today, shooting a Q5 with a Delta Point Pro, my battery died, causing me to zero the stage. Battery is about two weeks old.
Great optic with horrendously poor battery life. Using various other optics on my carbines, in PCC, I got out of changing the battery before every match. Really is a necessity with the DP Pro, based on my experience.
Leupold should be ashamed of this.
You've either got bad luck or I've got good luck.
You've either got bad luck or I've got good luck.
Generally, I assume I have bad luck, but in this case, I have seven of them, which seems a reasonably large sample. What I have not done, is write down the serial number of each unit, and keep a battery log, so it is possible that only like half of mine are bad.
Inmeed to start keeping a log of battery life. When I get it the match at the safe table when I initially holster up I turn it on to max setting (8:30am) and then turn it off after the match (2pm). I obviously run it on for dry fire and live fire practice. I ran it for a month and a half before Area 6 and swapped it to be safe for area 6. I even saved the old battery as an emergency spare.
Inmeed to start keeping a log of battery life. When I get it the match at the safe table when I initially holster up I turn it on to max setting (8:30am) and then turn it off after the match (2pm). I obviously run it on for dry fire and live fire practice. I ran it for a month and a half before Area 6 and swapped it to be safe for area 6. I even saved the old battery as an emergency spare.
I leave mine on for the duration of my dry fire and range sessions, but turn them off between sessions.
Battery is about two weeks old.
That is beyond unacceptable.
It seems like with the CMore and some other optics, the dot gets dim as the battery gets weak. In my experience, with the DP Pro, it goes from full intensity to dead, with no obvious warning of impending failure. I would not depend on the Pro for EDC, even if it came with 1,000 batteries, unless you planned to change the battery every day, and carry spares in your pocket in case you got kept out overnight.
Nothing like zeroing a stage and screwing your match to build customer appreciation for a product. I love Leupold scopes, but frankly any of their scopes with a battery has been a disappointment for the ten or twenty years they have offered them. SOP on magnified scopes with illumination was the battery would always be dead, and you changed the battery out before heading out with the rifle.
You've either got bad luck or I've got good luck.
Yea, I have not had to replace the battery in mine yet.
Generally, I assume I have bad luck, but in this case, I have seven of them, which seems a reasonably large sample. What I have not done, is write down the serial number of each unit, and keep a battery log, so it is possible that only like half of mine are bad.
You need to have each unit numbered, and keep a battery log and practice log (yeah, I know). When you shoot your guns with purpose (I mean you're on your PCC run, or your CO run), you shoot the respective gun(s) every day, and dry fire them too. You'd have to reach out to some top CO dudes to compare your notes in regards to volume of use experience. I can ask Hwansik when I shoot with him in August, provided he doesn't change to some supersquad.
Bart Carter
05-07-2017, 06:21 PM
Well, my Vortex Viper just went dead. One year almost to the day. About 25 or so matches, lots of dry and live fire practice, 4 day defensive handgun course. Never needed it on its highest setting, usually medium (bright sunlight) to low (indoors).
I know I should have kept track so I could have a better idea of when to replace the battery. I will start doing this with all my battery powered optics.
Bart Carter
05-07-2017, 06:24 PM
I can easily test a battery for its voltage drop. Maybe that should be in the battery log. I have my recently dead battery and a brand new battery as 0 to full. :D
Five shots into stage 3 at a USPSA match today, shooting a Q5 with a Delta Point Pro, my battery died, causing me to zero the stage. Battery is about two weeks old.
Great optic with horrendously poor battery life. Using various other optics on my carbines, in PCC, I got out of changing the battery before every match. Really is a necessity with the DP Pro, based on my experience.
Leupold should be ashamed of this.
Two weeks later to the day, battery in same Pro died today. Worst part is I haven't shot it, or anything, since last Sunday, and optic was turned off except for during a modest amount of dry fire. I am pulling this unit and returning it to Leupold.
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