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Mr_White
12-06-2011, 02:32 PM
Do you glance at the magazine well during a reload, or do you keep gaze fixed on target/threat throughout the reload? Why?

Is there a difference on this doctrinal point between people who are preparing specifically for competition, and people who are availing themselves of the technical wisdom of the competition shooting community, but for the purpose of self-defense?

JM Campbell
12-06-2011, 02:46 PM
Self defense.

I took JV's advice (IIRC) and painted the inside edge of the mag well with bright orang paint to give me a quick visual point while I have the gun forward of my face.

I don't "look" for it since the bright paint is easily seen while still focused on threat/target.

YMMV

Sparks2112
12-06-2011, 02:49 PM
Self defense.

I took JV's advice (IIRC) and painted the inside edge of the mag well with bright orang paint to give me a quick visual point while I have the gun forward of my face.

I don't "look" for it since the bright paint is easily seen while still focused on threat/target.

YMMV

I'm going to have to try that. What paint did you use?

JV_
12-06-2011, 02:49 PM
I look at the mag well, my chances of fumbling reload are much greater if I don't.

I use a red craft pen that I picked up at Michaels, here is a pic:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3xVTIYGTvVY/TtEB3BLEWuI/AAAAAAAABK4/BGQg7dqh1AE/s640/IMG_8564-Lg.jpg

jetfire
12-06-2011, 02:57 PM
I look at the magwell for the same reason - it's easier to nail my reload that way.

Zhurdan
12-06-2011, 03:29 PM
I look at the mag well, my chances of fumbling reload are much greater if I don't.

I use a red craft pen that I picked up at Michaels, here is a pic:



"Dude... you shop at Michaels? Bwhahahahahaaa."

Quote from a guy I know when I told him where I got the tougher paints for mags and guns.

I look at the magazine well also. I equate the fraction of a second to look as saving a metric shit ton of time by not missing the mag well the first time.

sm0kyjoe
12-06-2011, 03:36 PM
Stealing the painted magwell idea. Cant believe ive never seen that before.

JV_
12-06-2011, 03:37 PM
Stealing the painted magwell idea.I stole it too, from joshs and ToddG.

Ga Shooter
12-06-2011, 04:06 PM
I paint mine with White Out. I glance at mine for a fraction of a second but do not focus on it.

jetfire
12-06-2011, 04:06 PM
For the longest time I tried to not look at the magwell because it wasn't tactical, until an instructor told me "you're going to look at the thing anyway, so just get your gun up in your eyeline and do it quick."

DonovanM
12-06-2011, 05:07 PM
Here's another alternative on the Benos forum, more of a barber pole look for contrast: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76147&view=findpost&p=881199

I usually look at the magwell. The consistency difference is slight, but it's there.

I dig practicing reloads with my eyes shut though. I like to be able to do it by feel, especially when there's other things going on that demand attention, like a moving target, me moving somewhere, or hell even if it's dark and I can't even see my magwell.

jetfire
12-06-2011, 05:09 PM
I like to be able to do it by feel, especially when there's other things going on that demand attention

PHRASING

Mr_White
12-06-2011, 05:43 PM
For the longest time I tried to not look at the magwell because it wasn't tactical, until an instructor told me "you're going to look at the thing anyway, so just get your gun up in your eyeline and do it quick."



I dig practicing reloads with my eyes shut though. I like to be able to do it by feel, especially when there's other things going on that demand attention, like a moving target, me moving somewhere, or hell even if it's dark and I can't even see my magwell.

I was taught to keep eyes on target/threat throughout the reload. And I still do, but am re-evaluating it.

My personal belief is that for me to look at the magazine well, even briefly when guiding the new magazine in, reduces my ability to assess or track the threat immediately before I shoot again.

It’s not that I am always opposed to looking anywhere but the threat. I recognize there will be times to glance another direction, such as when preparing to move and I want to visually fix on the spot I am moving to, or that the path I expect to move in actually be clear or to note obstacles.

But when I glance at the magazine well during a reload, I feel disorganized. That is, I go from looking at the magazine well to closing-slide-forming-grip-shifting-visual-focus-pressing-out-firing, but without having gaze fixed on threat for any amount of time that lets me continue to verify that I still want to shoot, after having broken gaze mid-reload to glance at the magazine well. I hope that description makes sense. It also seems to give the threat a chance, however short, to begin to maneuver against me or otherwise do something that I had better respond to or take into account at the earliest opportunity. Looking at the mag well feels like it delays that opportunity.

When I reload keeping gaze fixed on target/threat the whole time, I feel like more information has gone into my shooting decision, because I was receiving more visual information from the target/threat later in the process, closer to when I am resuming shooting.

I have the gun close to my eye line during the reload, like in front of my chin and face, not quite the eyes, but the mag well is lower, and for me to glance at it I would have to glance down. Are people who look at the mag well reloading so high up that the mag well itself is directly in your eye-target line? For me, the slide/barrel/sights sit just below the eye-target line, so the mag well is lower still.

Maybe when I look at the magazine well I am looking for too long a time? Or I should reload with the gun even higher? But I don't like that because then it is blocking some of my vision and again reducing incoming visual information.

Is this a point of doctrine where ideal mechanics are taking precedence over a tactical necessity (more better threat assessment and tracking)? Or is this not a problem that anyone else perceives?

What happens to looking at the mag well in low/no light? Is gaze shifted to the magazine well for no real gain?

I've really only played with glancing at the magazine well a little bit. Maybe I need to really try it for a while to give it a fair shake. I do not doubt that it is a mechanically advantageous way, but obviously, I have other concerns...

jetfire
12-06-2011, 05:46 PM
When I say "look at the magwell" I don't necessarily mean "stare at the damn thing during the entire reload." For me it's more like the concept of "see what you need to see" - just like I try to see just enough of my front site to get the hit I need, I only look at my magwell for as long as I need to. Depending on what I'm doing that could be a long time for a tac load or a very brief glace during a static slidelock reload.

JDM
12-06-2011, 07:19 PM
I don't look at the mag-well. When I reload, the gun is in front of my face, and I'm looking through the trigger guard. I have a visual reference of the gun, but I can still see the target.

Works well for me.

DonovanM
12-06-2011, 08:54 PM
Are people who look at the mag well reloading so high up that the mag well itself is directly in your eye-target line? For me, the slide/barrel/sights sit just below the eye-target line, so the mag well is lower still.

No. Here's a video I just made for comparo. Sounds about the same for me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eK112Cjxcg


Or I should reload with the gun even higher? But I don't like that because then it is blocking some of my vision and again reducing incoming visual information.

I wouldn't, for precisely that reason. When you're looking down at the magwell, at least you have a chance of seeing something happening out of your peripheral vision. Unlike if your gun's in the way by default.


Or is this not a problem that anyone else perceives?

I don't think it is. But I don't put a whole ton of thought into everything I do. I just go with it. YMMV :)


PHRASING

:D

YVK
12-06-2011, 09:57 PM
I fumble even if I look at the magwell, so yes, I look at it. Todd showed me the trick with paint in early 2010, used it ever since on all my pistols.

ToddG
12-06-2011, 10:48 PM
Just another name on the "I look, I paint" bandwagon.

The idea that you're missing something important downrange just seems silly to me. You can keep looking downrange so you see the bullets headed your way while you fumble your reload, or you can glance for a fraction of a second at your pistol and make sure you don't fumble in the first place. YOUR GUN IS BROKEN until you reload it. Suggesting that your priority should be on the broad strategic situation in front of you instead of the acute tactical problem in your hands makes no sense to me...

JDM
12-06-2011, 11:10 PM
Let me clarify a little.

I don't avoid looking at my mag well because I think it's important to be looking elsewhere, I don't look at my mag well because after thousands upon thousands of reloads without looking, looking at it actually slows me down.

If there is one part of my shooting that I am absolutely happy with, slidelock reloads are it.

If I were starting out today, I would look for the magazine well, and be better off for it. I took the long way to fast reloads. I have no doubt that looking for the lime green paint would've sped up my progression measurably when I was first learning, alas, I'd never heard of it.

David Armstrong
12-06-2011, 11:53 PM
Just another name on the "I look, I paint" bandwagon.

The idea that you're missing something important downrange just seems silly to me. You can keep looking downrange so you see the bullets headed your way while you fumble your reload, or you can glance for a fraction of a second at your pistol and make sure you don't fumble in the first place. YOUR GUN IS BROKEN until you reload it. Suggesting that your priority should be on the broad strategic situation in front of you instead of the acute tactical problem in your hands makes no sense to me...
+1. If you need to reload, then reload in the most efficient and effective manner possible. If you really need to be watching the BG because he is so much of a threat you can't take your eyes off him then maybe that is not a particularly good time to be doing a reload.
Personally I pull both arms in and both hands back and do the reload slightly above the belt buckle, and rarely find a need to look at it. That is what gives me the best combination of reliability and speed for the reload.

DonovanM
12-07-2011, 12:15 AM
PHRASING

In addition, so says the "When the only tool you have is a hammer, you wanna nail everything" guy ;)

Zhurdan
12-07-2011, 02:13 AM
Just another name on the "I look, I paint" bandwagon.

The idea that you're missing something important downrange just seems silly to me. You can keep looking downrange so you see the bullets headed your way while you fumble your reload, or you can glance for a fraction of a second at your pistol and make sure you don't fumble in the first place. YOUR GUN IS BROKEN until you reload it. Suggesting that your priority should be on the broad strategic situation in front of you instead of the acute tactical problem in your hands makes no sense to me...

One thing I've been training... alone.. as in not in a class... is, if I have to reload, it needs to incorporate MOVEMENT laterally. If the gun goes dry, MOVE while you reload. I mean really... why not? If your super evil bad guy still has rounds and an Orange Julius amount of skill, why would you want to present him with a static target?

Having taken many classes, including Todd's, the environment of the class precludes lateral movement for the most part simply because you are standing 3 feet from another person. I'll say this first... I have a lot to learn, but when I train on my own, I tend to move a lot more than when I train in a class. Wanna know why? Funny story, actually.

My dad was a top 'o the line quick draw guy back in the day. Not "Nationally", but 'pert neer faster than Doc Holiday, at least as I've seen. I wanted to learn it, and he made me draw 500 times before even allowing me to put a round in the Peacemaker. (Yes, I did Cowboy Action shooting... sue me! Hehehe). Anyways... drawing a pistol that has nothing more that what is in it made me ponder later in life... if this is all I got, how do I make it work to my advantage? Do I stand there and give them a target or do I move? In Cowboy Action shooting... you shoot till you're empty and move to your "other" gun. (side note.. there's a little part of SASS that's called "Spirit of the game". What it means is, DON'T GAME IT!!" That taught me more about doing things because it's the right thing to do than anything else in my shooting lifetime.) (Was that period correctly placed in the parentheses? Hehe) I digress. Only having 5 rounds, they made you load down one, means you have to "think" a bit more about when shat is going to hit the oscillator. When you need to reload (or in the case of a six/five shooter), what do you do? You MOVE! Everything I've seen in formal classes limits this. I realize it's a function of financial limitations. You simply can't have one guy on the line at a time unless you're hosting a 10 day class or a three student focus group. The point? Train to the environment you can. Why? Because if you're in a death lock dance with another bad guy and he's still shooting at you when your gun goes dry... I'd hope your feet are moving, regardless of the condition of your gun, but especially if it's at slide lock. Practice moving while you reload. I'll bet your eyes aren't on the magwell, but where your feet are going. Train both. Take a peek at the mag well when you have time, move that mag where you know it needs to go when you don't have time.

Anyways, the SASS story was much more about me remembering my father than anything else... take it for what it's worth. ;-)

Why not practice both? You never know what is going to happen to you. Train looking it in (which I prefer) and train it in the dark. Either way, you are one step ahead of Julius!

JM Campbell
12-07-2011, 09:44 AM
Great points Zhurdan, I need to work on reloads on the move among several other parts of the puzzle.

Mr_White
12-07-2011, 12:37 PM
Thanks to all for their input.

I was taught to do certain things certain ways because it’s ‘tactically correct’ to do so, but I have been persuaded otherwise on a couple of those things, and I am also re-examining the ‘eyes only on threat vs. glance at magwell’ reloading issue as well, and just wanted to survey the p-f.com community on this point.

Donovan, those reloads look pretty awesome to me! Nice.

Tamara
12-07-2011, 12:59 PM
It occurred to me, reading this thread, that I can't imagine very many scenarios where there was something in front of me that was so frickin' dangerous that if I shifted my focus from it for a picosecond it would kill me, despite me already having run my heater to slidelock into it, and where I would just stand there like a duck in thunder and reload my gun, instead of doing something more productive, like opening the distance, seeking cover, running away in a brisk and zig-zaggy panic, or beating the goblin to a paste with the empty pistol.

Odin Bravo One
12-07-2011, 01:14 PM
or beating the goblin to a paste with the empty pistol.

A very common technique actually.

And quite effective when implemented properly, and with the appropriate amount of enthusiasm.

GJM
12-07-2011, 02:33 PM
It occurred to me, reading this thread, that I can't imagine very many scenarios where there was something in front of me that was so frickin' dangerous that if I shifted my focus from it for a picosecond it would kill me, despite me already having run my heater to slidelock into it, and where I would just stand there like a duck in thunder and reload my gun, instead of doing something more productive, like opening the distance, seeking cover, running away in a brisk and zig-zaggy panic, or beating the goblin to a paste with the empty pistol.

While I understand the FASTest is just a test, it has become something that at least PF participants do somewhat regularly. I think it is time for a FASTest 2.0, that includes a step off the line on the draw, and another step during the reload.

jetfire
12-07-2011, 02:50 PM
The FAST is a test of shooting skills though, and not necessarily a test of defensive skills.

JodyH
12-07-2011, 02:53 PM
I disagree.
Im become less enamored with the single step off line and prefer to either shoot from a solid stance or else shoot while moving.
I just don't think practicing a single side step gains you anything, and could be ingraining a bad habit.
Either shoot, or shoot while MOVING!
But that's probably a whole other can of worms.

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GJM
12-07-2011, 03:28 PM
To Caleb, while I understand that the FASTest is a test of shooting skills, it is certainly the drill/test most associated with PF -- and I would argue that the essence of PF is the practical, defensive use of a handgun.

Jody, since you can move and draw about as fast as standing still and drawing, I can't think of why you would want to stand still in the face of a threat, although I am always open to being educated. Perhaps this should be a new thread?

JodyH
12-07-2011, 03:43 PM
Im a fan of moving off line.
Im just not a fan of ingraining a single step as that movement.
When I practice a side step while drawing, its the first step in a series of steps, not one and done.
Once I start moving I usually don't stop moving until I reach cover or my drill is complete.
"FAST 2.0" for me would end up at about the 15 yard line and 10 or so yards off centerline if not further.
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Tamara
12-07-2011, 04:39 PM
While I understand the FASTest is just a test, it has become something that at least PF participants do somewhat regularly. I think it is time for a FASTest 2.0, that includes a step off the line on the draw, and another step during the reload.
Those P-T.com targets are pretty badass, granted, but I haven't had one come at me yet. :D

Mr_White
12-07-2011, 05:09 PM
What a coincidence; I was about to start a thread discussing shooting on the move!

Mr_White
12-07-2011, 05:33 PM
Here's the shooting on the move thread:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2412-Shooting-On-The-Move

JRas
01-01-2012, 06:58 PM
I don't look at the mag-well. When I reload, the gun is in front of my face, and I'm looking through the trigger guard. I have a visual reference of the gun, but I can still see the target.

Works well for me.

I do the same

secondstoryguy
01-01-2012, 08:54 PM
I'm in the bring the gun up into my field of view but maintain focus on the threat club. People tend to move and hide when you shoot at them. If your focusing entirely on your gun and the target moves/changes location it's a bad thing. I learned this when I was hunting squirrels as a youth and it was reinforced later in life when I was in the military and L.E.

JodyH
01-02-2012, 05:17 PM
I'm a proponent of reloading at shoulder level and above.
I'm also a fan of taking a quick verification glance at the mag well right at the moment of insertion.
You remain "heads up" but you also are helping to ensure a solid bobble free reload.
If you're having to reload in the middle of a fight, getting your gun back up and running is at least as important as keeping track of your opponent.
It does you no good to have 100% focus on where the other guy is going if you fumble the reload and spend extra time with an empty gun.

JodyH
01-02-2012, 05:25 PM
I don't look at the mag-well. When I reload, the gun is in front of my face, and I'm looking through the trigger guard. I have a visual reference of the gun, but I can still see the target.

Works well for me.
I was doing that and it was costing me at least .5 second per reload and I wasn't getting a solid elbow index which helps with reloading on the move.

I now reverse my press out until my strong elbow hits my ribs and I cant the pistol to where the mag well is aimed at my mag carrier. Muzzle still pretty much aimed at the target.
I keep the gun in my peripheral vision while I'm ejecting and grabbing a fresh mag, then I take a quick glance at the mag well right at the moment I start to insert the mag.
As soon as the mag goes home I'm switch to tracking the front sight back on target.

ToddG
01-03-2012, 11:33 AM
I now reverse my press out until my strong elbow hits my ribs and I cant the pistol to where the mag well is aimed at my mag carrier. Muzzle still pretty much aimed at the target. I keep the gun in my peripheral vision while I'm ejecting and grabbing a fresh mag, then I take a quick glance at the mag well right at the moment I start to insert the mag. As soon as the mag goes home I'm switch to tracking the front sight back on target.

= correct reload technique

JDM
01-03-2012, 11:41 AM
I was doing that and it was costing me at least .5 second per reload and I wasn't getting a solid elbow index which helps with reloading on the move.

I now reverse my press out until my strong elbow hits my ribs and I cant the pistol to where the mag well is aimed at my mag carrier. Muzzle still pretty much aimed at the target.
I keep the gun in my peripheral vision while I'm ejecting and grabbing a fresh mag, then I take a quick glance at the mag well right at the moment I start to insert the mag.
As soon as the mag goes home I'm switch to tracking the front sight back on target.

I'm going to give this a whirl.

I'll time 30 reloads the way I do it now for a baseline. I'll then make it a point to do every reload , dry and live, until April the way you described it.

I'll put the results in my journal. I'll be shocked if it saves me half a second, but if so, awesome.

jthhapkido
01-03-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm going to give this a whirl.

I'll time 30 reloads the way I do it now for a baseline. I'll then make it a point to do every reload , dry and live, until April the way you described it.

I'll put the results in my journal. I'll be shocked if it saves me half a second, but if so, awesome.

It would surprise me if it saved you half a second on average reload times. (It wouldn't surprise me if it averaged about .1 to .2 seconds faster, though.)

It won't surprise me if you have a consistently lower number of flubbed reload occurrences, though. You might think of tracking the number of bad reloads you have, in addition to the average time for reload. I'm betting you are going to find that you will hit your reload correctly a significantly greater percentage of the time--and for me, that makes it worth it to look at the magwell briefly.

I'm not too worried about "taking my eyes off the bad guy" for that short of a time, really. With the gun up in my original field of view (noting that peripheral vision is the part that recognizes movement the fastest), I just don't personally think that looking at the magwell briefly is a significant issue compared to the likelihood that it will cause my reload to be (slightly) faster, and more importantly, successful and without issue on the first try.

I'm thinking you are going to find that difference even more noticeable if your reloads include ones where you are moving or turning.

JDM
01-03-2012, 03:27 PM
It would surprise me if it saved you half a second on average reload times. (It wouldn't surprise me if it averaged about .1 to .2 seconds faster, though.)

It won't surprise me if you have a consistently lower number of flubbed reload occurrences, though. You might think of tracking the number of bad reloads you have, in addition to the average time for reload. I'm betting you are going to find that you will hit your reload correctly a significantly greater percentage of the time--and for me, that makes it worth it to look at the magwell briefly.

I'm not too worried about "taking my eyes off the bad guy" for that short of a time, really. With the gun up in my original field of view (noting that peripheral vision is the part that recognizes movement the fastest), I just don't personally think that looking at the magwell briefly is a significant issue compared to the likelihood that it will cause my reload to be (slightly) faster, and more importantly, successful and without issue on the first try.

I'm thinking you are going to find that difference even more noticeable if your reloads include ones where you are moving or turning.


All excellent Ideas. Thanks!

I'll be sure to include this data as well.

JodyH
01-03-2012, 03:38 PM
I was doing inconsistent 2.40 reloads looking through the triggerguard.
When I switched to Todd's method I immediately dropped to a more consistent 2.1 reload.
After working it a few weeks im at a smooth 2 with another .2 that can be cut with some more reps.

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Surf
01-05-2012, 03:10 AM
I use and teach a more "palm up" technique with the muzzle maintaining a more downrange orientation which is very applicable to a team shooting environment when perhaps shooting stacked or in very close proximity possibly high / low utilizing a position of cover with other shooters. Weapon retracts slightly but stays high in the workspace just below the line of sight and within the periphery of vision. I cannot personally touch my elbow to my rib cage and don't necessarily advocate that but not against it either as long as the weapon is maintained high in the workspace. With the palm up the magazine well is clearly exposed and still inline for an efficient magazine insertion. At the time of insertion of the magazine, LOOK the magazine into the magwell. Your eyes work extremely fast. IMO you are far better off getting a clean and quick insertion of the magazine than watching your target dance around possibly shooting at you while you fiddle fuck with trying to get the magazine inserted. The more you fiddle fuck, the more time your adversary has to do bad things to you, which in turn may make your reloading even more effed up.

secondstoryguy
01-05-2012, 08:59 AM
I was thinking about it after I posted earlier and while doing some drills on the range yesterday. I definitely see the advantages of of quick glance at the mag well to index the mag and actually do this in comps where the targets are static. But in FOF training and in the field it seems like their are times where you need to keep eyes on the BG and track where he's headed. Do you guys think having two techniques is too complicated or unnecessary?

JodyH
01-05-2012, 10:26 AM
How much do you think the situation is going to change in <0.25 seconds?
We're not talking about staring at the gun for the entire duration of the reload.
The gun is already up in front if your face at around chin level, at most this is a 0.25 glance to verify magazine alignment.
I consider it time well spent when the alternative is a greater probability of screwing up the reload and spending more time with an empty gun.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

JodyH
01-05-2012, 09:32 PM
15 straight sub-2sec. reloads today including a 1.76 to a IDPA -0 at 7 yards.




Nothing to add to the thread.
Just bragging because I had an awesome day at the range.
:cool:

JDM
01-05-2012, 09:57 PM
15 straight sub-2sec. reloads today including a 1.76 to a IDPA -0 at 7 yards.




Nothing to add to the thread.
Just bragging because I had an awesome day at the range.
:cool:

When you gonna start a journal?

JodyH
01-05-2012, 09:58 PM
I'm currently in stealth mode.
Trying to sneak up on a coin.

JDM
01-05-2012, 10:06 PM
I'm currently in stealth mode.
Trying to sneak up on a coin.

:cool:

JDM
01-06-2012, 09:49 PM
Just got finished at the range.

I was going balls to the wall, as fast as I could on these reloads. I was using a Q target bottle, and I was shooting at 7 yards.

My average reload, from concealment, was 1.76

I was shooting 1 R 2 from concealment ( a hoodie )

I'll put a full breakdown of tonights shooting, including the times for each reload, and how many bobbles etc. in my journal: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2154-BOM-s-training-Journal

Super J
01-15-2012, 12:13 AM
Thanks for the tip on painting the mag well. I never heard of it before, and I'm going to give it a try.

TheRoland
01-15-2012, 09:01 AM
Thanks for the tip on painting the mag well. I never heard of it before, and I'm going to give it a try.

I tried it, too, and find I don't really see the paint at speed. I have a tendency to drop the gun out of my sight-line when I reload, and it does encourage me not to do that.

I also found out it was illegal for USPSA Production :confused: .

mc1911
01-15-2012, 09:06 AM
On the cover of the latest Front Sight is a big picture of Bob Vogel in mid-reload, looking right at the mag well. If it works for an IPSC world champ . . .

BaiHu
01-19-2012, 10:49 AM
I know we have a combination of combat and competition shooters, so here is my question to you both.

If you want to guarantee your reload, you must make sure your mag drops first, so do you a) strip the mag with your weak hand as your hand leaves the grip and goes for the fresh mag or do you b) get the 'perfect' angle so that your mag always drops free and your weak hand can move faster without stripping the empty mag?

I've tried both and I'm just not skilled enough yet to notice a difference other than the latter often slowing me down, b/c my mag drops slower than I'd like. While I'm posing this question, I'll have to get some data on myself starting tonight-hopefully :o

Mr_White
01-19-2012, 12:26 PM
I attempt to do your option b.

Edited to add: From prior training, I am conditioned to drop the empty magazine after the presence of the new magazine has been confirmed, which occasionally has the empty falling into the new magazine as it heads toward the magazine well. The timing is close there for me sometimes. Or if I have somehow not actually released the magazine I might have to pause as I press the mag catch again.

BaiHu
01-19-2012, 02:18 PM
I attempt to do your option b.

Edited to add: From prior training, I am conditioned to drop the empty magazine after the presence of the new magazine has been confirmed, which occasionally has the empty falling into the new magazine as it heads toward the magazine well. The timing is close there for me sometimes. Or if I have somehow not actually released the magazine I might have to pause as I press the mag catch again.

Interesting. I just did a small sampling of reloads. Not from slidelock and I got these results:

Grip and strip mag on reload=GRL
Not gripping the mag on reload=NGRL

GRL
String 1: 1.79
String 2: 1.8
String 3: 2.00 Fumbled on my shirt
String 4: 1.83

NGRL
String 1: 1.79
String 2: 1.46
String 3: 1.68
String 4: 1.65

So the average here would prompt me to believe that the NGRL is the fastest way to reload, but the concern that has been expressed to me is that if your angle isn't right and now you have both hands full: SH with gun and WH with mag, now you are forced to wiggle your mag free or try and hit the release again.

My question, although my sample is small (it'll grow tonight and in coming days), is that .25 sec worth the safety or not? This is why I think this might be a competition vs combat question, no?

JodyH
01-19-2012, 04:20 PM
It's really gun dependent.
My P30 always ejects the mag with no hangups, my Glocks have always been more temperamental requiring more attention to angle and needing the occasional shake.

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Mr_White
01-19-2012, 04:56 PM
So the average here would prompt me to believe that the NGRL is the fastest way to reload, but the concern that has been expressed to me is that if your angle isn't right and now you have both hands full: SH with gun and WH with mag, now you are forced to wiggle your mag free or try and hit the release again.

Sometimes I do screw this up, but it just isn't that big a deal for me to work through it. I hit the mag catch again and give the gun a small shake and the mag finishes falling out, then complete the reload. That's how it works for me.

BaiHu
01-19-2012, 05:35 PM
It's really gun dependent.
My P30 always ejects the mag with no hangups, my Glocks have always been more temperamental requiring more attention to angle and needing the occasional shake.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Sometimes I do screw this up, but it just isn't that big a deal for me to work through it. I hit the mag catch again and give the gun a small shake and the mag finishes falling out, then complete the reload. That's how it works for me.

Great info guys. Thanks. I primarily use a P30 and it is smooth Jody, when I work with my glock, which is rare, I notice its "stickiness ".

Pistolero
01-20-2012, 03:49 PM
You can exchange and load your magazines in one of two ways: (1) If you're well practiced and your proprioceptive reflexes are what they should be, then, just drop one magazine and slam in the other without taking your eyes off the target. (2) If you have trouble with the above method, it's OK to cheat a little and use your peripheral vision in order to insert that second magazine. Some gunmen will extend the pinky of their strong hand in order to give themselves an additional reference point that doesn't require taking your eyes completely off the target.

(Watch Todd Jarrett swap magazines. Jarrett is often somewhere between method #1, and method #2. When he's really hot I've watched him move very smoothly through method #1.)

DonovanM
01-20-2012, 06:15 PM
(Watch Todd Jarrett swap magazines. Jarrett is often somewhere between method #1, and method #2. When he's really hot I've watched him move very smoothly through method #1.)

The only shooting of TJ's that I've seen is with him using a magwell on a double or single-stack 1911-pattern pistol. Not to downplay his obviously superlative mastery of pistolcraft, but reloading blind with a magwell is fairly low on the scale of difficulty IMO.

A better example I think would be Mike Hughes. From what I've seen he only shoots Production style guns, and when reloading them he indexes his pointer finger on the magazine with his pinky finger wrapped around the grip, and doesn't look. I think he covers it somewhere in this vid, but you can see him reload without looking in the first twenty or so seconds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7P0sDAkg38

I'm still a fan of looking. I can reload either way but feel more confident if I look.

JAD
01-25-2012, 11:40 AM
I messed with reloads in dry fire this morning -- something I don't often do. I found that I do reload eyes off; the gun is at eye level, canted pretty aggressively, and off to my strong side. When it goes smoothly, mag ejection happens when the fresh mag is within a foot of the gun or so. I wish I didn't have to take the gun so far off target to hit the mag release button -- another argument for H&K, I guess -- but other than that it's a reload I'm pretty content with. I need to time it, to verify that it's worth being content with, I suppose.

socket462
01-26-2012, 03:29 PM
I tend to use my grip hand to guide the mag into the well-- one time my pinky was a little too close, and the force of me slamming the mag home pinched the flesh pretty good. The pad of my pinky was black for 2 weeks with a blood blister.