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Mr_White
01-20-2017, 03:43 PM
Week 200: CTT Solutions Marksmanship Evaluation Course (MEC)

Results may be posted until February 20th, 2017.

Designed by: Mike Pannone, CTT Solutions
Range: 10 yards
Target: Three USPSA Metric
Start Position: Varies, see below
Rounds Fired: 40

Mike Pannone has created an exciting new test – let's try it out and see how we can do! Many thanks to JohnO for introducing our forum to it!

Test Protocols:

Level 1/Level 2/Level 3 by cumulative time per course of fire and Distinguished Expert/Expert/Sharpshooter/Marksman by score

• Course is shot cold and cannot be attempted within 1 hour of first attempt or more than 2 times in one day.

• All strings begin from holster with hands relaxed at sides; target is standard USPSA Metric @ 10 yards with 30” edge to edge. A, C and D zone hits in the body are scored as per USPSA minor (A=5 points, C = 3 points, D = 1 point.) A/B heads are counted as D’s unless called prior

• Expert 180-200 (90-100%), Sharpshooter 170-179, Marksman 150-169 (Level 1/2/3 times posted)

• Lowest level on any one string is highest level that can be achieved.

• Misses and procedurals (improper start position, sequence, number of rounds fired) asses a 10-point penalty.

• Extra shots will be subtracted from the A-zone along with the 10-point penalty

• Duty holsters with Level 2 retention subtract .25 closed top duty magazine pouches subtract.25 seconds

• Concealment
o Subtract .25 seconds for every action from concealment. -.25 for draw, -.25 for reload.
o No IDPA/fishing/photo vests
o Must have factory slide to frame dimensions *no long-slide guns, no comps
o Holsters and pouches must be specifically designed for concealment use

• Distinguished Expert (Level 1 only and no handicap for concealment but annotated as Distinguished Expert-C) 200 points with every individual time met per string (not just cumulative time)

Course of Fire:

Stage 1
1-shot draw
1.50/2.00/3.00
Time
String 1: ________________
String 2: ________________
Total: __________________
3.00/4.00/6.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 2
Pair from holster
1.70/2.20/3.20
Time
String 1: ________________
String 2: ________________
Total: __________________
3.40/4.40/6.40 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 3
Shot, slide-lock reload while taking a knee, shot
3.50/4.00/5.00
Time
String 1: __________________
String 2: _________________
Total: ____________________
7.00/8.00/10.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 4
Pairs from holster strong hand only
2.50/3.00/5.00
Time
String 1: ________________
String 2: ________________
Total: __________________
5.00/6.00/10.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 5
Bill Drill
2.50/3.00/4.00
Time
String 1: _________________
Total: ___________________
2.50/3.00/4.00 sec total
(Times cannot exceed above)

Stage 6
2 tgts. – 2 rds. each
2.35/2.85/4.00
(Shot left to right, then right to left)
Time
String 1: ________________
String 2: ________________
Total: __________________
4.70/5.70/8.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 7
3 tgts. 2 rds. each with 180 pivot
(Shot left to right, then right to left)
3.50/4.00/5.00
Time
String 1: ________________
String 2: _______________
Total: _________________
7.00/8.00/10.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Additional references:

Score Sheet
https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12925&d=1483803897

Mike Pannone demonstrating the CTT MEC at Level 1 Expert
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oug2de3htrcrjul/CTT-%20MEC%20rev2%20final.mov?dl=0

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (gun, holster, magazine pouch, concealment if applicable, any equipment variations from the official rules)
Level you shot (remember this is related to your times – Level 1, Level 2, Level 3)
Scoring level you shot (remember this is related to your points – Distinguished Expert, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman)
Times on each string (13 total)
Total number of points out of 200 possible
Anything you noticed

---

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

SLG
01-20-2017, 04:58 PM
Shot this today with Chuck and Cecil and a shooting partner. Per Pannone scoring protocol, I shot sharpshooter. I actually shot everything at the expert level except the bill drill stage. Now that I have shot it once and understand the scoring, I am confident I will shoot the bill drill at expert level as well. I actually went pretty slow on the whole course to shoot as many a's as possible, but it was not necessary to go that slow. Cost me the bill drill.

Anyway, fun test, I'll likely do it again, just to say I did.

For a comparison, cecil shot this with Pannone at a class. Pannone also shot it at sharpshooter level, but I have no doubt that he can normally shoot it ar expert level. He is a master class shooter.


eta: G17 from JMCustom AIWB. AIWB mag pouch. Shot from concealment.

Shot level 1 and expert except for the bill drill which was slightly over time.

MVS
01-20-2017, 06:03 PM
Shot this today with Chuck and Cecil and a shooting partner. Per Pannone scoring protocol, I shot sharpshooter. I actually shot everything at the expert level except the bill drill stage. Now that I have shot it once and understand the scoring, I am confident I will shoot the bill drill at expert level as well. I actually went pretty slow on the whole course to shoot as many a's as possible, but it was not necessary to go that slow. Cost me the bill drill.

Anyway, fun test, I'll likely do it again, just to say I did.

For a comparison, cecil shot this with Pannone at a class. Pannone also shot it at sharpshooter level, but I have no doubt that he can normally shoot it ar expert level. He is a master class shooter.

Any one who can shoot distinguished expert is likely a top 16 guy. Probably top 5.

Now I think I understand what it means by "Lowest level on any one string is highest level that can be achieved". For some reason I was having problems grasping that. Thanks.

SLG
01-20-2017, 07:11 PM
Now I think I understand what it means by "Lowest level on any one string is highest level that can be achieved". For some reason I was having problems grasping that. Thanks.

Yeah, it is very confusing to read, but really clear when it is explained to you. Cecil had done it with Pannone at a class and was very familiar with it.

Mr_White
01-21-2017, 12:47 PM
Cool to see you guys shooting this!

I have been so sick for a week that my brain is not braining and I formatted the Report Your Results part as one big ugly block. Hopefully this will be a little more legible.


Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (gun, holster, magazine pouch, concealment if applicable, any equipment variations from the official rules)

Level you shot (remember this is related to your times – Level 1, Level 2, Level 3)

Scoring level you shot (remember this is related to your points – Distinguished Expert, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman)

Times on each string (13 total)

Total number of points out of 200 possible

Anything you noticed

SLG
01-21-2017, 02:20 PM
We wrote all the times and stuff down, but I tossed that page when we were done yesterday.

Maybe I'll do it again later today or tomorrow and record it all. Hopefully with the Bill drill falling into line. :-)

Mr_White
01-21-2017, 04:14 PM
Btw, I only meant to correct my bad formatting. People don't always post every single thing when they shoot these drills of the week and it is fine by me if that helps facilitate their participation.

Would of course love to hear more details if you do end up shooting it again.

SLG
01-22-2017, 04:42 PM
I shot this again today. I'll add details later when I can.

I also edited my first post to remove my thoughts about having to be a top 16 or top 5 shooter to shoot it clean. I bet there are at least a few guys here who can.

SLG
01-22-2017, 06:11 PM
So...I'm a little embarrassed by today's shooting, but I'm going to post it anyway. I also have it all on video, and may put a link up at some point in the future.

Weather today was 36 degrees, with wind it was 26. The video has screenshots of the weather, so if I'm off, it is only by a degree one way or the other. My hands were cold, and only got worse. After this drill (test?) I tried to move on to Gabe White's standards, and my hands were too cold to safely do so, so I called it a day.

I shot from concealment, with a JM Custom AIWB and AIWB mag pouch. G17, with Lawman 115 plus P ammo.

Points were 186. 33 A's and 7 C's.

In order of the stages, my times were: 2.54, 3.07, 6.13, 4.07, 2.61, 4.79, 6.32.

I failed to make the top tier on two of those strings. :-(


Notes: It was cold. I hate to say that again, but it really was. On many of the strings, I fumbled my draw. On the 2 targets 2 rounds, where I failed to make the time, I had a really bad fumble. It is what it is.

On the Bill drill, I knew what I needed to do to make the time, but I didn't actually tell myself what to do on that string, and so I shot it too slow, trying to guarantee all A's. I knew not to do that, as I needed the speed, not the A's, but from my vantage point at the ten yard line, I thought I had all A's and I wanted to try for the Distinguished Expert. That was a mistake, both in my remembrance of the rules, as well as in point of fact for my performance.

Next time, I intend to push on the Bill, and not worry about all A's, since I have room to spare on the points, but not the speed. Also, I intend to shoot it either indoors, or outdoors when it is warmer:-)

My only saving grace, is that this test, shot today, really drives home the point I have always tried to make with shooting. The reason you want high technical skills is not to fool yourself into thinking your draw speed matters off of the range. It is because the higher your skill, the better you can cope with adversity, whether that is weather or something else. If I could barely make these times and points under nice conditions, I certainly would not have done as well today.

Also, for GJM's sake, my first draw of the day, on string one of this test, was a 1.26 with an A hit. That is right where I normally am for a cold draw. Sometimes a bit slower like the other day (1.37) sometimes a bit faster like the day before (1.14). I should also mention that GJM and I spoke yesterday and today, and we have settled our differences. This draw time was mentioned in the spirit of providing truly cold, on demand performance data.

Mr_White
01-22-2017, 07:54 PM
SLG, three things:

First, I really enjoyed this extensive report! Deep diving into these kind of details is one of the greatest things about PF's orientation toward defensively-focused technical shooters. Thank you.

Second, I'm overjoyed to hear you and GJM have settled your differences.

Third, I couldn't agree more with your paragraph below. That's pretty much exactly how I feel about it, even coming from the pure private citizen perspective. Maybe I shouldn't say 'even' and instead should say 'especially'? Since I'm not gonna have experience, because it simply isn't my role in life, at least I can be good. Hopefully so good that there is plenty left when Real Life comes to tax the crap out of my skills.


My only saving grace, is that this test, shot today, really drives home the point I have always tried to make with shooting. The reason you want high technical skills is not to fool yourself into thinking your draw speed matters off of the range. It is because the higher your skill, the better you can cope with adversity, whether that is weather or something else. If I could barely make these times and points under nice conditions, I certainly would not have done as well today.

SLG
01-22-2017, 08:03 PM
Gabe,

You're welcome, thanks for the feedback.

GRV
01-22-2017, 10:18 PM
Lawman 115 plus P ammo.


You too now with this? :rolleyes: GJM still owes me proof for his claim ;)

Joking aside, is this CleanFire?

ETA: Actually, would you be willing to just post a picture of the flap of the box that has the bullet weight and such printed on it? I'm not trying to be an ass; I'm legitimately trying to track down this mythical "+P" version of the 115gr vanilla (not CleanFire) Lawman.

SLG
01-22-2017, 11:01 PM
You too now with this? :rolleyes: GJM still owes me proof for his claim ;)

Joking aside, is this CleanFire?

ETA: Actually, would you be willing to just post a picture of the flap of the box that has the bullet weight and such printed on it? I'm not trying to be an ass; I'm legitimately trying to track down this mythical "+P" version of the 115gr vanilla (not CleanFire) Lawman.

It is not cleanfire. Chuck Haggard commented on it when we shot together on Friday...I had no idea it is hard to find, but he said it is a unicorn. It is my standard training ammo.

Cecil Burch
01-23-2017, 12:38 AM
It was such an awesome experience, albeit humbling, to shoot with three great shooters like SLG, Chuck, and other Dood (who was super cool). I felt like a kid sitting at the adult table at Thanksgiving for the first time. Not only was the company terrific, I got to play with some cool toys, get some incredibly helpful tips so I can stop sucking at running a pistol, and laughed a lot.

I hadn't shot Mike's test since his class on Labor Day, so it was good to revisit it. Just please don't anyone tell him I shot a lower score than I did at his class!

Thank you SLG for setting it up, and Chuck and other Dood being willing to put up with me. I can't wait to do it again.

SLG
01-23-2017, 11:49 AM
Cecil is no slouch, he's just being nice so I don't Ezekiel him again ��

cheby
01-23-2017, 12:35 PM
I shot this test yesterday. CZ Shadow USPSA Production rig
Total points - 192. - 4C's, however, I failed the Bill Drill - my time was 2.9sec (!). So it is Sharpshooter
I believe the times for this test are very forgiving unlike in Gabe's standards. So I decided to try to shoot it as clean as possible and, as a result, I shot it very conservatively, still beating the times with a good margin... Except the Bill Drill. I really wanted to shoot it clean and I did but it took 2.9Sec. After that I realized that it was not going to be the expert run and relaxed and got sloppy with all 4 C's I got.
I shot a few Bill drills from different distances after the test and realized that I could not shoot it clean on demand from that distance in 2.5 sec. There is a good chance of dropping a few points which is a not a big deal for this test I guess...

Cecil Burch
01-23-2017, 12:54 PM
Cecil is no slouch, he's just being nice so I don't Ezekiel him again ��

Once is enough!

SLG
01-23-2017, 01:11 PM
Once is enough!

Ha! That will be the day. I'll have to retire if I ever get you in an Ezekial...or anything else.

Mr_White
01-23-2017, 01:32 PM
I shot this a few times. Fun course.

On all of them, equipment was a Gen3 G34 (not legal for this course, but I don't care, that's what I carry), concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt. Mag pouches were JMCK AIWB pouches with the high-ride option. Magazines are all G17 mags with OEM +2 extensions. Ammo was American Eagle 124 grain on the third run, and I can't remember if it was the same ammo or Lawman 124 grain on the first two.

I shot the first two runs about a week and a half ago, right before I got sick, which has had me pretty well laid out since then. The third run I shot this morning when I still thought I would be able to return to work today (umm no.)

---

First Attempt
Level 1 Expert – C (I think that's right, no concealment bonuses used...)
Times: 1.06/1.10, 1.43/1.42, 3.11/3.25, 1.96/2.05, 2.32, 2.35/2.33, 3.17/2.90
Points: 180 (31A 8C 1D)
This was a cold attempt and my first try on this particular test. The dropped points were stupid. I had time to aim, I just was being a spaz and didn't really have my mind focused enough on aiming. I took about an hour like you are supposed to and did some other stuff, while silently warning the test that I had its number now...that being a fast enough draw to have a ton of time to aim carefully and still be under the par...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjGM8gQWOjk

---

Second Attempt
Level 1 Distinguished Expert – C
Times: 1.12/1.16, 1.49/1.47, 3.05/3.02, 2.02/2.12, 2.39, 2.14/2.17, 3.45/3.17
Points: 200 (40A)
Maxed it, yay! This is the thing with par time tests – how do the times shake out for the individual shooter? I personally have a lot of time to aim and fire conservatively since it is such a draw-heavy test. To me, this wasn't truly a cold attempt since I had just done it a bit earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHgEnAD154

---

Third Attempt
Level 1 Expert – C
Times: 1.13/1.19, 1.49/1.52, 3.05/3.01, 1.85/1.87, 2.29, 2.21/2.19, 3.40/3.09
Points: 196 (38A 2C)
This is the one I feel by far the best about, given the different circumstances for all three. I've been out sick for a week and thought I was going back to work this morning, went by the range first and shot this, but by the end I still felt so crumby, there was no way and went back home instead. So it was a true cold run, REALLY cold since no shooting for a week and a half, plus I was sick. I did dry practice a bit yesterday when I was feeling ok, so there is that. And it is a nice warm indoor range where I am very comfortable because it is where I shoot all the time, so I did have those (pretty significant) things going for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov3M6pOU-FY

MVS
01-28-2017, 11:17 AM
OK lets get the excuses and disclaimers out of the way first. I used my dot gun for this because it is what I carry 90% of the time. If that make it not legal, that is fine. I wanted to shoot it again with my 1911, but it was too cold. The temperature itself wasn't too bad at 25 degrees, but with a strong wind added in I was having problems with the cold. I was wearing five layers and gloves which slowed me down considerably. Typically if it is under 40 I also switch from AIWB to OWB which is what I did here. Most of my dry work is done from AIWB so when I add concealment to OWB I am not as quick. On the issue of the RDS, once it gets out to ten yards like this test the dot helps me out in both speed and accuracy. Inside 7 yards it slows me down, so this type of test for me it is a help normally.

Gear; G17 MOS with Vortex Viper, Blade Tech OWB holster. Kuhl down jacket as concealment.

Stage 1 3.36 seconds, all A's
Stage 2 4.12 seconds, all A's
Stage 3 7.17 seconds, all A's
Stage 4 5.49 seconds, all A's
Stage 5 3.68 seconds, all A's
Stage 6 6.66 seconds, all A's
Stage 7 8.94 seconds, all A's

So point wise I did just fine. Speed wise, well could have used a sun dial as opposed to a shot timer. I did work my Bill drill at ten yards a number of times after the test but the best I could manage was a 2.99. My slowest point remains the draw to first shot.

KG
02-20-2017, 10:59 PM
I shot my first DOTW today. I've been looking for a way to benchmark my shooting skills so that I can measure my progress. This CTT-Solutions Marksmanship Evaluation Course seemed like a good one to use.

I tried to make it as realistic a concealed carry test as possible. I used my new carry pistol and gear, wore the glasses that I normally wear to work, and carried appendix under a long sleeve sweatshirt. The only part of my gear that I would not normally wear around town was my hearing protection. I also ran a bit before starting the test to elevate my heart rate.

Equipment used
My new Ernest Langdon/Robar PX4 Compact Carry Mod 4
JM Custom Kydex AIWB
JM Custom Kydex AIWB Single Mag Pouch

Level shot
Failed, didn't pass stage 7.

Scoring level shot
Failed, 128 total. If I would have shot Stage 7 just .77 seconds faster, I would have scored 184 and made Level 3 Expert.

Times on each string (13 total)

I put my split times in parenthesis after stages 3-7.

Stage 1
1-shot draw
1.50/2.00/3.00
Time
String 1: 2.11-.25=1.86
String 2: 2.14-.25=1.79
Total: 3.65
3.00/4.00/6.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 2
Pair from holster
1.70/2.20/3.20
Time
String 1: 2.85-.25=2.60
String 2: 2.80-.25=2.55
Total: 5.15
3.40/4.40/6.40 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 3
Shot, slide-lock reload while taking a knee, shot
3.50/4.00/5.00
Time
String 1: 5.60-.50=5.10 (2.13/3.47)
String 2: 5.31-.50=4.81 (2.43/2.88)
Total: 9.91
7.00/8.00/10.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 4
Pairs from holster strong hand only
2.50/3.00/5.00
Time
String 1: 3.96-.25=3.71 (2.76/1.20)
String 2: 4.08-.25=3.83 (3.07/1.01)
Total: 7.54
5.00/6.00/10.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 5
Bill Drill
2.50/3.00/4.00
Time
String 1: 4.13-.25=3.88 (2.14/.41/.41/.40/.39/.38)
Total: 3.88
2.50/3.00/4.00 sec total
(Times cannot exceed above)

Stage 6
2 tgts. – 2 rds. each
2.35/2.85/4.00
(Shot left to right, then right to left)
Time
String 1: 4.68-.25=4.43 (2.23/.87/1.06/.52)
String 2: 3.49-.25=3.24 (2.04/.50/.61/.34)
Total: 7.67
4.70/5.70/8.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

Stage 7
3 tgts. 2 rds. each with 180 pivot
(Shot left to right, then right to left)
3.50/4.00/5.00
Time
String 1: 5.81-.25=5.56 (2.76/.51/.79/.40/.97/.38)
String 2: 5.46-.25=5.21 (2.30/.56/.86/.46/.99/.29)
Total: 10.77
7.00/8.00/10.00 sec total
(Combined times cannot exceed above)

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb245/Keith_Groen/FullSizeRender.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/Keith_Groen/media/FullSizeRender.jpg.html)

Anything you noticed
I tried to stay safe and well within my abilities. Looking back, I would have done better on the test if I would have pushed myself on speed, especially on Stage 7. I think I could have shaved off the .77 seconds needed to achieve Level 3, even if I would have missed the A zone a couple of times.

I think I could have done much better if I would have had enough time to shoot it again.

I took a 10 point penalty on Stage 3. I did not have my mag carrier clipped into my belt properly and the carrier came out with the magazine. For the sake of safety, I stopped and restarted rather than fumbling around with the gun and stuck mag. It is a good gear setup lesson.

I've shot less than 500 rounds out of a PX4 Compact Carry and was using some new gear, so I am satisfied with having a good starting point and a way to measure my progress. This will be my normal carry setup as I get more comfortable with it.

Excellent drill, thanks for posting it. I welcome critiques/feedback.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb245/Keith_Groen/IMG_2667.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/Keith_Groen/media/IMG_2667.jpg.html)