HST 38 special

[xcop]

Photo but have not seen specs. The case on the left is a fully loaded round. They seat it like a wadcutter
13272

[Doug MacRay]

With the 135 gr. +P Gold Dot "short barrel" load being so hard to find, the problems with the new Cor Bon solid copper DPX load, and the Winchester Ranger T QC issues, this would be a welcome addition to the market. However, I'm worried that the HST in a standard pressure will have the same problems as other standard pressure JHP's out of a short barrel: that expansion ensures inadequate penetration. I wonder if they will be releasing a +P load as well. Also to note: this deeply set bullet will make for slower reloading under stress as is the case with WC's. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[UNK]

and the Winchester Ranger T QC issues,
Can you expound on this?

[Doug MacRay]

Can you expound on this?

I started a thread on some issues I had with a box of .38SP 130gr +P Ranger T's a while back, and it turns out I wasn't the only one with such an experience. Myself and a few others chose to return the ammo for a refund while some decided the rounds were good to go. Chuck noted that this has been an ongoing issue with Winchester ammo and that some large departments are dropping Win for other brands due to QC issues. I'm going to avoid Winchester for defensive handgun ammo for the time being.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23359-Uneven-seating-depths-and-OAL-s-with-38-sp-P-Win-Ranger-T-130gr-Bonded-JHP

[HCM]

Existing thread on the new Federal HST .38 round over in the revolver sections:https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23821-A-new-Federal-38-wadcutter-ish-round

[Jeep]

With the 135 gr. +P Gold Dot "short barrel" load being so hard to find, the problems with the new Cor Bon solid copper DPX load, and the Winchester Ranger T QC issues, this would be a welcome addition to the market. However, I'm worried that the HST in a standard pressure will have the same problems as other standard pressure JHP's out of a short barrel: that expansion ensures inadequate penetration. I wonder if they will be releasing a +P load as well. Also to note: this deeply set bullet will make for slower reloading under stress as is the case with WC's. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

You know, everyone keeps talking about this "reloading" thing with revolvers. I keep wondering if any civilian has ever reloaded a revolver in a fight(plenty of cops have, of course, but they have a different job)

[Doug MacRay]

You know, everyone keeps talking about this "reloading" thing with revolvers. I keep wondering if any civilian has ever reloaded a revolver in a fight(plenty of cops have, of course, but they have a different job)

This is a fair point. I have some of those Bianchi speed strips, but I've never carried them. Once those 5 rounds are gone, I'll be relying on a pocket knife or my adrenaline-fueled legs to save my hide if the threat is still a threat (probably the latter). Honestly, I only mentioned it because the resident LEO's tend to take it into account. I had never even considered the issue until I started browsing this forum.

[ST911]

You know, everyone keeps talking about this "reloading" thing with revolvers. I keep wondering if any civilian has ever reloaded a revolver in a fight(plenty of cops have, of course, but they have a different job)

Low frequency, but high criticality that benefits from as much refinement as possible.

[BehindBlueI's]

Honestly, I only mentioned it because the resident LEO's tend to take it into account. I had never even considered the issue until I started browsing this forum.

*Some* do. Could you need to reload fast and it matter? Maybe. Someone wins the Powerball...and more times than a second or two of reloading time matters.

http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/1981.htm

A 1981 study of NYC officers, roughly 6000 shootings, zero hinged on speed of reload. Most were done with revolvers.

"The following is a brief review of the more than 6,000 cases detailed in SOP 9 reports..... Prior to 1974, an officer's revolver qualification was limited to firing ~n approved score with the standard service revolver. A review at that time revealed, through the SOP 9 (s. 69) reports, that the service revolver was used in only 60% of the cases. The authorized smaller framed civilian clothes revolver was used in 35%. In the remaining 5%, an undercover type pistol or shotgun was employed. Percentages have remained consistent over the past ten years...

Rapid Reloading

The SOP 9 study reveals that the average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed confrontation is between two and three rounds, less than half the capacity of the service revolver. The two to three rounds per incident has remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also sub*stantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6 rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor In any of the cases examined. In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as neces*sary to continue the action. However, in 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons and other incidents where the action was pro*longed and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone.

It is evident in some cases that lack of firepower, not having a larger capacity weapon and/or ability to reload rapidly, may have changed the outcome. In no case was it the prime factor in bringing the contact to a successful conclusion

Despite the apparent low incidence of need, this training has not been discontinued. The manipulatory skill, over all familiarity with the revolver gained, and its value in some situations make it a useful part of training exercises. It is not emphasized to the degree it has been in the past at the expense of accurate delivery of the fired rounds. Every report indicates that it is accurate hits that count rather than the number."

So, if it does everything else better than existing options with the exception of reload speed, I'd weight the "everything else" much higher.

[Kevin B.]

Every report indicates that it is accurate hits that count rather than the number."

This bears repeating.

[Chuck Haggard]

That rolled case mouth should make reloading a bit quicker.

I'd love to see that bullet as a straight WC nose profile, no need to put an ogive on it.

[Duces Tecum]

You know, everyone keeps talking about this "reloading" thing with revolvers.

Lots of J-framers keep wadcutters in the gun and reload with something else.

[Moonshot]

I'm interested in this round, but before I swap out the wad cutters in my 642, I'll wait to hear from Doc Roberts and read his review.

[ssb]

I'm curious about how this load stacks up recoil wise to the 135gr GDHPs. The GDHPs are pretty much the limit of what I can control out of an Airweight, and I've not yet gotten around to getting a lighter version but I can't imagine they'd be any easier out of a 340. I'm also curious how it's going to do on velocity. As I understand, the Speer load is right there on the edge of reliable expansion, and even temperature shifts can cause a failure there.

[SAWBONES]

I have a bunch of different J frames in .38 Special and .357 Magnum.

Most hit at POA with .38 Special Remington 158gr+P LSWCHP, and a couple of the titanium alloy-framed examples hit at POA with .38 Special Gold Dot 135gr+P "short barrel" JHP.

(FWIW, none of the J-frames which I own which are rated for .357 Magnum actually hit at POA with ANY .357 Magnum loads, as personally tested with all available premium commercial loads, from 110gr to 158gr bullet weights, more's the pity.)

Anyway, I'll be interested in Federal's new HST .38 Special load if it actually hits to POA in my guns, not otherwise.

I already use Federal's HST loads in semiautomatic pistols, both .45 Auto and 9mm, with excellent accuracy and high precision, so I have high hopes for this new revolver load, even though I haven't actually seen it for sale yet.

[Leroy Suggs]

That rolled case mouth should make reloading a bit quicker.

I'd love to see that bullet as a straight WC nose profile, no need to put an ogive on it.

The WC profile would be the best imo too.
Probably work better in various circumstances than on ogive bullet.

[LSP972]

As I understand, the Speer load is right there on the edge of reliable expansion, and even temperature shifts can cause a failure there.

Of course there can be. Define "reliable expansion"... On me. On YOU. On your neighbor teen-ager. It's all guess work... ALL guess work. Which is why lots of us have realized that, for our close-up defense, it just doesn't matter THAT MUCH, what kind of a load we use out of a frigging J frame.

The day I begin using a J as a primary... THEN I will look at carry ammo a bit closer. Until then... Whatever I have handy will work for a BUG... IMO. I was always working hard to keep the 135gr +P Gold Dot in place. I still do it... But not as importantly. :-)

.

[ssb]

The day I begin using a J as a primary... THEN I will look at carry ammo a bit closer. Until then... Whatever I have handy will work for a BUG... IMO. I was always working hard to keep the 135gr +P Gold Dot in place. I still do it... But not as importantly. :-)

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Having been stuck with a 642 in a Kramer for the past six months as the best solution to a weekday gun, I'm in a position of wanting something that provides me ballistics as close to a service pistol as possible.

[Moonshot]

The day I begin using a J as a primary... THEN I will look at carry ammo a bit closer. Until then... Whatever I have handy will work for a BUG... IMO. I was always working hard to keep the 135gr +P Gold Dot in place. I still do it... But not as importantly. :-)


I get what you are saying, but to me, a J-frame is a secondary weapon only if you grab something else first. If you primary malfs, gets taken, runs dry, or is not readily accessible when you need it and you have your J-frame in your hand, it now becomes primary, and I want the best ammo I can get for it. Same for its reload.

My 642 is typically a BUG. I keep WCs in it now because I can generally get faster shots and tighter groups to my POA with them more readily than I can with my 135gr GDs. If I was to carry my 642 tomorrow as my only gun, I would still load it with WCs, and for the same reasons.

I hope these HSTs offer improved performance over WCs and GDs. If they do - great. If not - oh well.

[LSP972]

PPP
I get what you are saying, but to me, a J-frame is a secondary weapon only if you grab something else first. If you primary malfs, gets taken, runs dry, or is not readily accessible when you need it and you have your J-frame in your hand, it now becomes primary, and I want the best ammo I can get for it. Same for its reload.

My 642 is typically a BUG. I keep WCs in it now because I can generally get faster shots and tighter groups to my POA with them more readily than I can with my 135gr GDs. If I was to carry my 642 tomorrow as my only gun, I would still load it with WCs, and for the same reasons.

I hope these HSTs offer improved performance over WCs and GDs. If they do - great. If not - oh well.

I'm with you. Keep in mind, however, that I have been looking at pistol/revolver wounds/kills for a very long time. The one thing that remains common on those is... Nothing is common.:cool:

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[Wayne Dobbs]

PPP

I'm with you. Keep in mind, however, that I have been looking at pistol/revolver wounds/kills for a very long time. The one thing that remains common on those is... Nothing is common.:cool:

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Truth. It seems you have either spectacular success or spectacular failure with those little blasters.

[Jeep]

Lots of J-framers keep wadcutters in the gun and reload with something else.

Yes--which makes sense if you think there is any likelihood of reloading.

Personally, I try to stay away from troublesome areas, particularly at troublesome times of day. If I have to be there, I want to carry something with more capacity than a J frame.

But, for the most part as a civilian I think any encounter away from my house needing a gun will usually end without shots fired, and if there are shots fired they will be from very close range. It is going to be extremely rare when I will be justified using a firearm at even 10 yards range. And, since it won't be the Waffen SS on the other side, it is likely that they (and/or I) will be running once a few shots are fired.

I get the "be prepared" idea, but to my mind that means being mentally alert, capable of getting the gun on target in the minimum time possible, and making as good shots as possible while fear and adrenaline are surging. Reloading capability seems a tertiary concern, at best.

Again, for cops the equation is very different.

[Duces Tecum]

The day I begin using a J as a primary...

Clearly, you have considerably more experience in this matter than I, but it's always (perhaps not "always", but for a really long time) seemed to me that once you grab your J it becomes your primary.

[Eastex]

I was just looking at the picture and while a full flat wadcutters profile would be nice I still think the profiles not bad. In a worst case scenario where it didn't open up it looks like you'd still get a pretty good cutting effect, better than a FMJ or regular round point for sure.


"Hell bent on being intentionally anachronistic"

[UNK]

I would recommend shooting a piece of wood to get a better idea of the cutting effect of a wadcutter. It is quite impressive. That along with reports here of people shooting animals with wad cuttter and the effect,(entry and exit to a deer skull with pulped brain oozing from the skull, chest shot to deer with perfect holes cut through the ribs) plus the numerous experienced cops who recommend and ammo section gel testing give me the peace of mind to carry the wadcutter with confidence.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

This round looks interesting.

One of the not often mentioned benefits of wadcutters I find is that the Gold Medal Match variety and it's analogs from other companies are serious Target grade ammunition...meaning the QC is very good. Even more so than defensive Ammo QC. I've yet to have a match grade WC not work. And I've shot off a few tens of thousands of them in my life.


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[warpedcamshaft]

This round looks interesting.

One of the not often mentioned benefits of wadcutters I find is that the Gold Medal Match variety and it's analogs from other companies are serious Target grade ammunition...meaning the QC is very good. Even more so than defensive Ammo QC. I've yet to have a match grade WC not work. And I've shot off a few tens of thousands of them in my life.


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Great point... and this also applies to .22 Match ammo (as Werner sometimes recommends)... tolerance for QC issues is nonexistent in even state/regional competitions. Also, many competitors at that level have fired tens of thousands of their competition load.

[warpedcamshaft]

Double post.

[LSP972]

Clearly, you have considerably more experience in this matter than I...

And so what? If you are smart enough to make intelligent remarks, you already know much of what you NEED to know. Trust me, there are VERY few things in concrete in these games... And what I prefer for damn sure does NOT mean I am automatically correct, best, etc. in fact, some "remarks" cause me to... well, move on. :-)

For practically the whole part, some things can almost always be at least PARTIALLY correct. You'll note that a few of us are pretty well done every time... Mainly because those of who USED the shit against the bad guys and won. The thing is, it worked for us... THEN. Somebody- YOU, perhaps- needed a different finish.

To me, those folk (young, medium and ready, or old and lazy like us) change NOTHING. Thanks for your attitude, Duces Tecum. But we aren't any smarter than you... :-)

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[Jeep]

I don't know. You are definitely smarter than me about firearms. But then again, one expects that of a former Airborne NCO.

[LSP972]

Ah, but there is a problem. I am actually LOSING brain goodies... Every time I have a "stroke" now. Brain shit is changing... Almost daily. And NOTHING anyone can fix.

Interesting on one side; depressing on the other.

Oh, well. :-)

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[Jeep]

Ah, but there is a problem. I am actually LOSING brain goodies... Every time I have a "stroke" now. Brain shit is changing... Almost daily. And NOTHING anyone can fix.

Interesting on one side; depressing on the other.

Oh, well. :-)

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Well, let's hope the strokes stop, but everyone knows that airborne NCOs are born with a whole lot more brain material than officers--even cavalry officers--so you probably can afford the loss. My only excuse for my brain slowing down is age . . . and it never worked all that well to begin with.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Ah, but there is a problem. I am actually LOSING brain goodies... Every time I have a "stroke" now. Brain shit is changing... Almost daily. And NOTHING anyone can fix.

Interesting on one side; depressing on the other.

Oh, well. :-)

Hang in there brother.

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[Moonshot]

Any idea when this round might become available for testing? I don't see it listed on Federal's Premium Handgun page or Federal's LE page.

[Rex G]

Ah, but there is a problem. I am actually LOSING brain goodies... Every time I have a "stroke" now. Brain shit is changing... Almost daily. And NOTHING anyone can fix.

Interesting on one side; depressing on the other.

Oh, well. :-)

.

Still prayin' for you!