Help diagnose an accuracy issue?

[Chris17404]

Hi all,

First, I'd like to thank everyone on this forum who provides such a wealth of experienced shooting knowledge. I have learned a lot from many of you. In fact, one or two posts from member Surf a while ago about grip technique and trigger control struck such a chord with me that it was like a light switch came on in my head, and my accuracy and recoil control improved quite a bit. Anyway, I'm what you'd call an educated responsible armed citizen, who shoots perhaps 400-500 rounds of 9mm per month (plus some .22LR), and I attend some IDPA practices now and then. I also try to dry fire maybe twice a week for about 15 minutes, I basically just shoot Glocks, my entire gun-owning life. I realize that diagnosing a problem in someone's shooting is very difficult over the Internet, but what the heck? We can give it a try.

This past weekend I was practicing with the G19 that I carry AIWB in a Dale Fricke ArchAngel. At 10 yards, slow fire singles as well as well-controlled pairs when I know I have a solid proper grip on the gun, I can basically keep them all in about a 3-inch circle centered in my POA. Though, I do have a slight bias toward the left with some vertical stringing when I don't concentrate as hard or when I start getting tired.

I noticed that when I practice drawing from my AIWB holster and fire, that I tend to accentuate my left impact bias and the vertical stringing gets a bit larger. In trying to self-diagnose the issue, I feel that its the grip I establish on the draw that is the main culprit, and perhaps that I'm going a bit faster than I should and not taking the time to see what I need to see. A few times after drawing and firing a single shot quickly and I see, for example, that the bullet impacted high-left, I look at my sights to see they are pointed just that, high-left. I tilt my head to align my eye with the sights and bingo, that's where the bullet went. It's almost like I need to work extra hard to align the sights on the draw, if that makes sense.

My grip technique is pretty standard: web of hand as high on the backstrap as possible, squeeze front and back straps with firing hand, palm of non-firing hand up against the open area of the frame, wrap non-firing fingers around the front proving side-to-side pressure, non-firing wrist is not overly "locked", just firm, chest muscles pressing sides of gun together like the "walnut", and arms are not locked straight out.

Again, like I said, I feel that my ability to establish the proper grip on the pistol on the draw may be the reason, but of course I'm open to listening to your feedback and suggestions. I definitely think I can do more dry work, working on my draw and establishing a solid proper grip. Thanks for any help you can provide.

Chris

[HopetonBrown]

Could you tell us your IDPA classification to give us an idea of skill level?

[JohnO]

I feel that its the grip I establish on the draw that is the main culprit, and perhaps that I'm going a bit faster than I should and not taking the time to see what I need to see. A few times after drawing and firing a single shot quickly and I see, for example, that the bullet impacted high-left, I look at my sights to see they are pointed just that, high-left.

I find that a bad grip coming out of the holster is 98% of the time the cause of a errant shot at speed.





I tilt my head to align my eye with the sights and bingo, that's where the bullet went. It's almost like I need to work extra hard to align the sights on the draw, if that makes sense.

You want to bring the gun into your vision not the other way around. A well polished presentation results in sight verification only. The goal is to have the gun aligned at the end of the presentation.

[Chris17404]

I don't have an IDPA classification and don't currently compete. I just attend local practices now and then to gain some practical gun handling experience and have fun.

[Chris17404]

I find that a bad grip coming out of the holster is 98% of the time the cause of a errant shot at speed.

You want to bring the gun into your vision not the other way around. A well polished presentation results in sight verification only. The goal is to have the gun aligned at the end of the presentation.

Yes, bringing the gun into my vision is what I strive for and work on. I only mentioned the "head tilt" to illustrate the fact that I felt the sights are not naturally aligned to where I want the bullet to go upon gripping the gun on the draw.

[Chris17404]

Now that I think of it, I don't recall ever reading or seeing a detailed description of *how* to establish a proper grip on the gun during an AIWB draw. It's always just said "establish your master firing grip". Does anyone know of a well-written description or video that presents this in detail?

[Doc_Glock]

I am a complete amateur but this sounds like a trigger press issue more than a grip issue. I think you are moving the gun's alignment during the trigger press.

[GuanoLoco]

Stick some pasters on a wall. Practice drawing and automatically indexing the gun so it appears in your vision with sights on the target paster. Do not pull the trigger.

Put the sights on a paster. Or a blank white wall. Pull the trigger as fast as you can. Did the sights move? Rinse and repeat.

[ASH556]

My money's on lacking hard front sight focus.

[GuanoLoco]

Target focus is OK at 10 yards.

Actually I was having some crazy breakthrough moments taking head shots as the light was failing a couple of weeks ago. Array of 3 targets, 7-10 yards, don't remember exactly, targets spaced wide, 5 yards apart, shooting at speed. Target focus, not front sight. Last run I could see the sights in alignment AND bullet holes before recoil, each shot appearing in the upper A boxes (I don't normally see bullet holes). 2A, 2A, A/B. The first 2 targets had stupid close 'snake-eye' pairs. I lost focus a bit on the last target.

Very interesting - to me anyhow.

[Chris17404]

I was going some dry fire in my basement earlier this evening, and I noticed something interesting. I was comparing the way my support-hand grip my affects the gun's sight alignment. I tried an experiment with two guns: a single-stack Walther PPS M1 and a Glock 17. I held each pistol somewhat lightly with the firing hand, up an eye level. I then applied my support hand and squeezed with the normal amount of pressure I would when firing. With the Walther PPS, the sights stayed aligned where I was aiming. With the Glock 17, I noticed a definite slight drift of the front sight to the left as I squeezed my fingers. Very interesting. With the PPS, it felt like my support hand could apply pressure directly from the sides (perpendicular to the barrel), I assume due to the grip's slim profile. But with the Glock 17, I noticed that the fingers on my support hand tended to not apply pressure directly to the sides of the pistol, but rather at a slight angle maybe 30 degrees off of perpendicular if that makes sense. Perhaps this is due to the grip's thickness or geometry and my hand's inability to completely wrap around the grip. I do have normal size hands, by the way. (Medium-large golf glove.) This off-angle pressure tended to push the front sight left a bit and I needed to intentionally bring the front sight back into alignment. Does any of this make sense or has anyone noticed or experienced this before? Ideas on how to address it? Thanks.

[ASH556]

I was going some dry fire in my basement earlier this evening, and I noticed something interesting. I was comparing the way my support-hand grip my affects the gun's sight alignment. I tried an experiment with two guns: a single-stack Walther PPS M1 and a Glock 17. I held each pistol somewhat lightly with the firing hand, up an eye level. I then applied my support hand and squeezed with the normal amount of pressure I would when firing. With the Walther PPS, the sights stayed aligned where I was aiming. With the Glock 17, I noticed a definite slight drift of the front sight to the left as I squeezed my fingers. Very interesting. With the PPS, it felt like my support hand could apply pressure directly from the sides (perpendicular to the barrel), I assume due to the grip's slim profile. But with the Glock 17, I noticed that the fingers on my support hand tended to not apply pressure directly to the sides of the pistol, but rather at a slight angle maybe 30 degrees off of perpendicular if that makes sense. Perhaps this is due to the grip's thickness or geometry and my hand's inability to completely wrap around the grip. I do have normal size hands, by the way. (Medium-large golf glove.) This off-angle pressure tended to push the front sight left a bit and I needed to intentionally bring the front sight back into alignment. Does any of this make sense or has anyone noticed or experienced this before? Ideas on how to address it? Thanks.

In my experience the issue with support hand pressure on a Glock causing lateral bias is due to the support hand pointer finger catching the big blocky trigger guard and pulling it. Try rolling your support hand back inward and a little more vertical.

[Chris17404]

In my experience the issue with support hand pressure on a Glock causing lateral bias is due to the support hand pointer finger catching the big blocky trigger guard and pulling it. Try rolling your support hand back inward and a little more vertical.

Thank you for the suggestion. Can you please explain in more detail what you mean by "rolling your support hand back inward and a little more vertical"? Thanks a lot.

[Redhat]

I'm going to suggest you try setting your "complete" and "final" firing grip tension before you extend fully towards the target...see if that helps.

[ASH556]

Thank you for the suggestion. Can you please explain in more detail what you mean by "rolling your support hand back inward and a little more vertical"? Thanks a lot.

More like this:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/5520F69F-856F-4ED5-9DDC-BDABA03C13B3.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/5520F69F-856F-4ED5-9DDC-BDABA03C13B3.jpg.html)

Less like this:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/66AACB62-DBBA-4887-A055-3FAA15DF3FCF.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/66AACB62-DBBA-4887-A055-3FAA15DF3FCF.jpg.html)

[Chris17404]

More like this:

Less like this:


Got it. OK, thank you.

[spinmove_]

More like this:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/5520F69F-856F-4ED5-9DDC-BDABA03C13B3.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/5520F69F-856F-4ED5-9DDC-BDABA03C13B3.jpg.html)

Less like this:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/66AACB62-DBBA-4887-A055-3FAA15DF3FCF.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/66AACB62-DBBA-4887-A055-3FAA15DF3FCF.jpg.html)

That's....interesting, because that seems to go against most of the "conventional wisdom" that I see regarding the support hand grip.

Taking what was described earlier and applying the additional pressure while fully presented, I also noticed slight deviations to the left while gripping harder. Looking at how I was interfacing with the gun, I noticed that while building my grip I am indexing my support hand index finger on the trigger guard using my middle index finger knuckle. If I use the base knuckle instead to index and then build my grip and then grip harder after presentation, I don't see the same deviation. Subsequently I seem to be able to grip harder with more surface contact with less effort. I might have to test this with live fire.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[ASH556]

That's....interesting, because that seems to go against most of the "conventional wisdom" that I see regarding the support hand grip.

Taking what was described earlier and applying the additional pressure while fully presented, I also noticed slight deviations to the left while gripping harder. Looking at how I was interfacing with the gun, I noticed that while building my grip I am indexing my support hand index finger on the trigger guard using my middle index finger knuckle. If I use the base knuckle instead to index and then build my grip and then grip harder after presentation, I don't see the same deviation. Subsequently I seem to be able to grip harder with more surface contact with less effort. I might have to test this with live fire.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

The more forward grip works well for controlling recoil but can also induce other less desirable movements if there's inconsistent grip pressure.