Expandable baton suggestions

[Whirlwind06]

Hello,
I have joined my local PD auxiliary police unit and we started the training academy.
I need a ASP expandable style baton, and I'm looking for suggestions on which brand.

The instructors said don't get a cheap one but didn't really give any brand names. Well looking on a few sites I see prices anywhere from $20.00 to $150 range.
I'm thinking of getting this one:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1316162765/triple-k-expandable-baton-hardened-steel-with-mega-grip

Triple-K makes decent mags but I don't know about the batons. I also need handcuffs and they did suggest either Peerless or S&W.

I would appreciate any help you guys can offer.

Thanks!

[Hambo]

http://www.peacekeeperproducts.com/batons.aspx

[Gray222]

Is there a standard size/length you need?

We are issued Friction Loc ASP Batons, we are supposed to have 21" but I carry a 16" - it's better as it doesn't dig into your side when you sit or bounce off your armor when you walk around.

Just a note for use - when you hit people make sure you hit them with the tip. If you do not, and hit someone with the joint, it has a good chance of breaking. I've broken about five ASP's so far on people, thankfully my PD replaces them without issues.

It is a good baton, I'd recommend it over the push button types.

[Whirlwind06]

I need either 21' or 26'.

[Gray222]

I need either 21' or 26'.

Get an ASP, they are cheap.

[SamuelBLong]

If you are not type restricted by policy, definitely get a Peacekeeper as Hambo suggested earlier.

They make an ASP and Monadnock feel like a toy because they (peacekeeper) bias the weight into the end shaft so you have better force on target.


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[Gadfly]

I have an ASP 21" and a monadnock push button... both issued. We started with ASP, but they found that people closing them on pavement knarled up the tip. Then, when it was swung, allegedly the knicks and gouges in the tip could cut suspects. Not that we cared about the suspect, but why risk blood born pathogen exposure.

So we issue push button monadnock now. If you still are old school enough to have an issued asp, I think you can still carry it, but for the last ten years it has been the auto lock.

I have never hit anyone with a baton. I don't think many my office have. But we have busted lots of windows, and dug through piles of shit with them. I have sprayed with OC, may or may not have hit with flashlights, but just never go for the baton. I think it can be a good tool, but they are hollow. No real weight. A super stinger loaded with some battery weight still has some heft. But many agencies strictly prohibit using a flashlight or radio as an impact weapon....

Pr24 and solid wood had heft, but were awkward to carry, collapsible is easy to carry, but no heft.

Also, the longer the baton, the better the stand off distance, BUT, longer ones can bend easier depending on what part of it hits the suspect. 21 is the longest I would want, even though 26 feels pretty good in the hands.


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[SCSU74]

A lot of equipment choices are personal, in general ASP brand anything is sub-par. How they tricked the majority of US LE into using their product is beyond me. As mentioned above for an expandable baton the RCB is really the only decent option. Both Asp and Monodnock are generally worthless for their intended use, they are great for poking things and adjusting vents in the car though. If you aren't allowed to carry an RCB I would get the smallest and lightest option that is allowed, it is just more weight you have to carry. Many here get rid of them as soon as they can and just use a flashlight for an impact weapon (that's what I do because our liberal department is scared of the RCB).

As far as cuffs, they are a personal choice as well. As long as you stay with peerless, s&w or hiatt you'll be fine. Just avoid ASP brand like the plague. I personally prefer a pair of hinge and a pair of chain. At least with Peerless the hinged are a bit bigger and the chain go a bit smaller.I use the hinge 99% of the time, but if I have a smaller female or Juvi I use the chain.

[psalms144.1]

I've been a control tactics instructor for my agency for over a decade, so I've done a lot of research on this issue in order to keep current (have to do annual recertification training for my squad, so it's part of the job). We're issued 16" ASPs. They're worthless. They're so worthless as an impact weapon (lack of reach, lack of ability to generate power, etc), that I generally urge everyone during refresher training to only use them in closed mode like the world's biggest roll of quarters. As I said, I try to keep up on this issue, and I know of lots of incidents with other agencies issuing ASP products of them bending and otherwise failing; but mainly hearing that they suck in actual use.

I have a Winchester 21" baton (predecessor of the Peacekeeper) and it's night-and-day different from ASP/Monadnock, etc. If policy would permit me to carry it, I'd have it on my "tactical" vest all the time. I've seen them actually employed, and they work.

Of course, any baton doing its job is dependent on the officer/agent being able to use it effectively - e.g. knowing how to swing the f'ing thing, and what target zones to use.

[secondstoryguy]

http://www.peacekeeperproducts.com/batons.aspx

This, so much of this. I heard San Antonio PD called them "shit sticks" because the first guy they used one on shit himself.

Although I don't carry a baton, I've used and handled the Peacekeeper models and they are the only thing worth looking at IMHO. It's a well made and thought out tool. The additional bonus is that the certification is a lot more common sense than ASPs. You can even poke/ jab with the peacekeeper which is an excellent technique to get people back.

[AMC]

http://www.peacekeeperproducts.com/batons.aspx

^^This^^ all day long if you actually expect to have to hit someone. It is the Almighty's Rod of Correction. The downside is that it is pretty damn heavy on the belt after a full shift. .

[LtDave]

Guess I'm old school. I really liked my 26" cocobolo straight stick. Also had one of the Monadanock expandables. It was ok. Never carried an ASP.

[stinx]

I would go with Monadnock, they have a history of use in Law Enforcement. Most of the Major Police Departments use Monadnock. Officer why did you choose to use a monadnock baton?: because several thousand other police departments, many of whom researched this extensively chose monadnock. YMMV

[HCM]

Peacekeeper > ASP > Monadnock.

Like Gadfly, in 20 years I've never hit anyone with a collapsible baton. Radios and flashlights yes, collapsible baton, no. I've seen two people hit with the ASP resulting in a bent batons. Consider them disposable.

[Gray222]

Peacekeeper > ASP > Monadnock.

Like Gadfly, in 20 years I've never hit anyone with a collapsible baton. Radios and flashlights yes, collapsible baton, no. I've seen two people hit with the ASP resulting in a bent batons. Consider them disposable.

I've hit a lot of people, on numerous occasions. If you know how to use them they won't break on you.

[TGS]

I've hit a lot of people, on numerous occasions. If you know how to use them they won't break on you.

So it took you 5 batons to learn how to use them?

Or should an ASP just be considered a disposable item, like mags?

[Gray222]

So it took you 5 batons to learn how to use them?

Or should an ASP just be considered a disposable item, like mags?

I broke one at every large protest so far in the last 7 years (we got them issued to us 7 years ago). That's at least 8+ hrs of constant use. They just aren't designed for that.

[TGS]

I broke one at every large protest so far in the last 7 years

Life goals

;)

[Gray222]

Life goals

;)

You know the large gatherings I am referring to, lots of hippies were dealt with.

[SCSU74]

You know the large gatherings I am referring to, lots of hippies were dealt with.

We have straight sticks for that :D

[Coyotesfan97]

My ASP is in a drawer somewhere in the back of my Tahoe. If I need a baton I take my PR24.

[Gray222]

We have straight sticks for that :D

Broke my issued straight stick 6 months in.

Got another one and broke that one a week after I broke my first ASP.

Some old-timers have oak or cherry sticks and they seem to hold up well.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Peacekeeper > ASP > Monadnock.

Like Gadfly, in 20 years I've never hit anyone with a collapsible baton. Radios and flashlights yes, collapsible baton, no. I've seen two people hit with the ASP resulting in a bent batons. Consider them disposable.


I've hit a lot of people, on numerous occasions. If you know how to use them they won't break on you.

Of the handful of drunks I've used an ASP on, none appeared to feel it at the time. I'm sure they were sore as hell when they woke up the next morning in jail, though.


My ASP is in a drawer somewhere in the back of my Tahoe. If I need a baton I take my PR24.

Currently using a PR-24 STS. I'd like to test drive one of the Peacekeepers, but baton + end cap + holster is closing in on $200.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I carried an ASP for several years but I was never truly impressed with them. Then I bought a Winchester epandable, which now appears to be PeaceKeeper. For an expandable, that is a solid stick.

I'm done with expandables though. I bought a cocabollo dymond wood stick for Koga a couple years ago. Am very happy with and it has a traditonal look too.
;)

[John Hearne]

FWIW, I delivered a perfect "Happy Gilmore" baton strike to a suspect's common peroneal with a 26" Monadnock auto-lock. I have a picture of the perfectly placed bruise to confirm placement. The net effect of the strike was that it allowed me to get the suspect on the ground where he was eventually wrestled into handcuffs. This was after two Taser cartridges and half a can of OC.

I just ordered a 26" Peacekeeper for one of my new guys and if I like it, I'll probably get one for myself.

[Lester Polfus]

The Monadnock and Winchester weren't an option on my department until after I left. The only thing that sucks worse than an ASP is an airweight ASP. The only thing that they are good for is your Sergeant can look on your belt and see that, yes, there is a baton there.

[Dos Cylindros]

I run the peacekeeper products RCB. As previously mentioned it is a real thumper, and very effective. I went to a two week impact weapons instructor school where I was first introduced to the RCB. During that school we dressed up in a modified red man padded suit which allowed all of us to "sample" full power strikes from all the various commonly used LE impact weapons. These included the orcut police nunchuka, PR-24, traditional straight stick, long riot baton, ASP and the RCB. The only one that packed more punch was the long riot baton. The RCB outclassed everything else by a mile. Quite a bit of thought went into the design of the RCB and it is a VERY effective impact weapon.

[SD]

Well this has been a perfectly timed thread. Coming out of retirement next month, starting a private security job. My background was walking galleries for 25, years with a very effective 26" straight stick, a most effective tool. The new employer required a collapsable baton only. Real life experience with ASP years ago made me thankful I was holding a D-cell mag-light. 21" Peacekeeper arrived today. Yes Sir, I believe this will work if and when needed. Thanks PF
13462

[Dave J]

Is anyone here experienced with the Smith & Wesson brand expandables? The Govt recently issued me one for an overseas job, so I'm curious how those compare. I could easily swap it out for an ASP, but I'm not sure that'd be an upgrade.

[JustOneGun]

Peacekeeper > ASP > Monadnock.

Like Gadfly, in 20 years I've never hit anyone with a collapsible baton. Radios and flashlights yes, collapsible baton, no. I've seen two people hit with the ASP resulting in a bent batons. Consider them disposable.


In 20 years I never hit anyone with an expanded baton. Riot duty we are issued a wooden one that works quite well.

They do work well for knocking on doors, hammer strikes, sternum rubs, saying hello with a jab to the ribs. All of these things are best done with the baton collapsed. So I bought an aluminum lightweight asp. And yes, if you wack the crap out of someone there is a good chance it will bend. But If I needed to actually wack the crap out of someone I figured there was no need to collapse it suddenly. They do bend back, but it's a pain.

Buy a lightweight one. Buy an inexpensive one from a name brand company. Asp, etc.

[Lester Polfus]

In 20 years I never hit anyone with an expanded baton.

I have a friend who was the training Sergeant for a department of about 80 or so officers. He couldn't find a single incidence of them using an expandable baton to actually hit somebody for as far back as their records went, and they only had a couple of deployments of pepper in the years following the adaptation of Tasers.

For several years in a row, he fought to just drop the ASP from the department, as it would free up a block of instruction every year that could be used on other things. He figured everybody could carry a window punch in their shirt pocket.

If he had succeeded in that, he had plans to wait a couple of years and do the same thing with pepper.

The rank and file was largely on board with the idea, but command staff always kept the ASP, because reasons. So every year they would recertify everybody with the ASP, so they could go out for another year and not hit anybody with them.

[Chuck Haggard]

Every single baton ASP makes is a POS, pass on them.

The "Power Safety Tip" Monadnock batons with the button vs the friction locks are pretty decent, Monadnock also has a vastly better training system than ASP.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have a friend who was the training Sergeant for a department of about 80 or so officers. He couldn't find a single incidence of them using an expandable baton to actually hit somebody for as far back as their records went, and they only had a couple of deployments of pepper in the years following the adaptation of Tasers.

For several years in a row, he fought to just drop the ASP from the department, as it would free up a block of instruction every year that could be used on other things. He figured everybody could carry a window punch in their shirt pocket.

If he had succeeded in that, he had plans to wait a couple of years and do the same thing with pepper.

The rank and file was largely on board with the idea, but command staff always kept the ASP, because reasons. So every year they would recertify everybody with the ASP, so they could go out for another year and not hit anybody with them.

Getting rid of the ASPs is a good idea, getting rid of OC spray is stupid as hell, it's entirely too useful.

[PearTree]

For several years in a row, he fought to just drop the ASP from the department, as it would free up a block of instruction every year that could be used on other things. He figured everybody could carry a window punch in their shirt pocket.

This is exactly what I do. I dropped the baton a while ago and carry a Zak tool window punch in the shirt pocket. Less weight and my back thanks me.

With today's climate towards law enforcement, you won't find me using a baton on anyone.

[Lester Polfus]

Getting rid of the ASPs is a good idea, getting rid of OC spray is stupid as hell, it's entirely too useful.

I think he was gonna take a wait and see attitude on that one. They used OC at a far lower rate than other places. I think one thing they had going for them is they had a pretty good hands on game thanks to the work he did with his folks. The other thing they had going from them, frankly was it was a fairly wealthy suburb so they didn't get in that many donnybrooks to being with.

[John Hearne]

We got the 26" Peacekeeper yesterday. Holy Crap, for just adding a few extra ounces to the baton, it completely changes its character. I now know two things 1) I don't want to get hit by one of those things and 2) I really want one now.

[PT Doc]

Apologies for the drift, but would a baton be useful for a jogger? We had a recent loose dog attack in the neighborhood and my wife is looking for something to carry in addition to pepper spray. A solid stick is too cumbersome and a pistol isn't happening.

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[psalms144.1]

Apologies for the drift, but would a baton be useful for a jogger? We had a recent loose dog attack in the neighborhood and my wife is looking for something to carry in addition to pepper spray. A solid stick is too cumbersome and a pistol isn't happening. Anything is better than empty hands, especially against a dog. The problems with extending batons for joggers are:

1. Size/Weight - in order to get enough "reach" to have any hope of standoff against something you DO NOT want in contact with you, you'll need to have a fairly sizeable baton - 21" being bare minimum, 26" being better. Both are long even when collapsed, and heavy (DON'T get airweight anything).
2. Legal - lots of places treat any impact weapon (appropriately) as a deadly weapon, and there are lots of jurisdictions that prohibit them outright - even those with liberal concealed carry laws. You'd need to make sure you know the statutes where you live.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think he was gonna take a wait and see attitude on that one. They used OC at a far lower rate than other places. I think one thing they had going for them is they had a pretty good hands on game thanks to the work he did with his folks. The other thing they had going from them, frankly was it was a fairly wealthy suburb so they didn't get in that many donnybrooks to being with.

Bet they also get into very few shootings as well. Are they to then get rid of their guns?

Socratic question.....


Ref the counter-dog stick, if I was going to go that route for a jogger;
http://www.safariland.com/ultralite-friction-lock-expandable-carbon-graphite-grip-baton-MON_103.html#start=1

I'd never carry one for use against bad guys though.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've very little experience with the Peacekeeper baton, which I will be correcting shortly, but when a place uses blatantly incorrect information to sell a product it's a turnoff for me.

This bit;

in confined areas (cells, hallways, courtrooms, domestic violence areas), OC sprays or side handle batons cannot be used. ....is complete horseshit. In my not insignificant real world experience no other baton works better than a side handle/PR24 in confined spaces, not that hardly anyone carries a PR24 anymore.

Also, "gross motor" skills on their training page.... OK.......

If you can't work a baton under stress then I'm not sure how you are to be trusted with a pistol, car, long gun.....

[Coyotesfan97]

in confined areas (cells, hallways, courtrooms, domestic violence areas), OC sprays or side handle batons cannot be used.

Good thing I didn't know that the last time I was jabbing with my PR24 in a confined space...

[jnc36rcpd]

It's been some time since I've been exposed to Monadnock training, but is anything on the torso considered in the green or yellow zones? I've always thought that my long lost and lamented PR-24 was an excellent tool for close quarters, but may be limited by Monadnock's own training.

I was impressed by the Peacekeeper when I saw it at a conference. Its design makes inherent sense. I referred their information to our defensive tactics staff. I never heard from most of them. One informed me that his ASP had never failed him and he saw no need to look at any other products. OK, my Ruger Service Six never failed me, but....

[Chuck Haggard]

It's been some time since I've been exposed to Monadnock training, but is anything on the torso considered in the green or yellow zones? I've always thought that my long lost and lamented PR-24 was an excellent tool for close quarters, but may be limited by Monadnock's own training.

I was impressed by the Peacekeeper when I saw it at a conference. Its design makes inherent sense. I referred their information to our defensive tactics staff. I never heard from most of them. One informed me that his ASP had never failed him and he saw no need to look at any other products. OK, my Ruger Service Six never failed me, but....

Your memory serves you well...
https://www.google.com/search?q=monadnock+trauma+chart&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_jKaztePRAhVJxFQKHfgXAYcQ_AUICCgB&biw=1475&bih=701#imgrc=N6pUvrt-130OFM%3A


ASPs regularly fail, that dude's hasn't tells me he has never seriously used it.

[psalms144.1]

ASPs regularly fail, that dude's hasn't tells me he has never seriously used it.Dead on the money, as usual...

[John Hearne]

Good thing I didn't know that the last time I was jabbing with my PR24 in a confined space...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f1/2d/01/f12d01f97d13207582d6962651aee4e5.jpg

[Coyotesfan97]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f1/2d/01/f12d01f97d13207582d6962651aee4e5.jpg

Holding it by the yawara and thrusting is probably a no go then?