Folding blades under 2.5 inches and other NPE questions

[sharps54]

My question boils down to what are the best tools to carry for defense when working in a very NPE.

I work on a military base in Virginia. My work days consist of 16 hours of NPE carry, 12 on base and a two hour commute each way. Due to state law or base regs during that time I can't have a firearm, pepper spray, fixed blade, or folding blade over 2.5".

A while back I purchased a pair of Spyderco Cat folders but decided without training they are probably more dangerous to me so right now I just carry my Swiss Army Tinkerer and a steel pen. I am planning on taking class on knife skills this year and am attending Ellifritz's ground fighting class and ECQC this year to work on the unarmed part.

I also carry a Streamlight Microstream on my body, really more of a tool like the SAK, and carry a small backpack that has a Dark Angel trauma kit and a Streamlight Protac-HL strapped to the outside. I keep a wooden cane (a 3' "whip" cane from tractor supply) in my car for when my back acts up, I guess I could lug it around but until I can get some basic training in using it I'm not sure I can justify carrying it when my back isn't on the fritz.

I know I need to work on my unarmed skills but at the moment I'm not able to get to a dojo on a regular basis. My fitness is also lacking which is something I do plan on hitting hard this year.

Are there better options than the Spyderco Cat for folding knives under 2.5"? I should probably start carrying a defensive (or is it offensive?) flashlight on my person specifically for self protection, any recommendations on that?

I put this in the edged section because of my knife question but if it belongs somewhere else please move it to the appropriate sub forum.

[Poconnor]

My favorite NPE is not a knife but a foster coin purse sap and a surefire pen. A long time ago a spyderco delica was ok for airplane travel but has not been since 911. I have not found a blade I like for NPE carry yet .perhaps a paring knife in your lunch box. Maybe a tool box with a D cell maglite, a hammer and a Phillips screw driver to fix your chair at work. I have seen suggestions for common tools along with 550 cord to tie door knobs closed and wedges for doors. For decades I kept a large maglite, a pocket mask and an umbrella in the drivers side door pocket of my vehicles. Sadly my new truck doesn't have a pocket

[Kanati]

I'm a big fan of the DPX Heat series for NPE carry. It's got a sub 2.5 inch blade, and it's plenty beefy as well; it doesn't feel in the hand like a small folder.

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/RPDPHTF006/dpx-gear-heatf-milspec-folding-knife-stonewash-sleipner-tool-steel-blade-black-g10-and-titanium-handles

[voodoo_man]

The blade itself, at that size, is fairly unimportant. The training for implementing such a small tool is very important however.

You can get a folding blade welded in place (or drilled) and get a sheath made up for it. I'd also suggest picking up something really small like a TDI LDK mini (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009XMYNQ8/) as it it short enough to be worn in discreet places.

Consider getting yourself a monkey fist of some sort - I know the jacks are the hot thing right now around here, but I know locally even having a "change purse" that looks like a jack is still a jack. They are illegal to posses, so if you use one on someone you may still be charged.

Just a note on small blade use. 2.5" is plenty to do damage, but you have to know what to target and not just swing randomly. Find an instructor who understands compression strikes with small blades and how to teach them properly.

[sharps54]

Thanks for the suggestions, definitely a couple things to look at.

[Duelist]

I work in an NPE, but am allowed to carry a "reasonable" blade. I carried a stainless Delica, and got a few raised eyebrows. I got a Sage 2, and it apparently carries more discretely, despite being almost exactly the same size. Lately, I've been carrying a the Sage and/or a Dragonfly. I also carry a Surefire 6P. I actually think the flashlight fist-load/bludgeon is a better impact tool than the little knives are people cutters. I could be wrong.

In my classroom/office space, I keep a variety of toys and sports equipment. There may or may not be a t-ball bat in there. My students play with that stuff regularly. You do what you can with what you can have.

[Duces Tecum]

My question boils down to what are the best tools to carry for defense when working in a very NPE.

Non-permissive environments is what they make improvised weapons for. There might be a class for that. In any event, Google is your friend.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm not a fan of karambits in general, but I believe both of the Spyderco versions are sub 2.5" and lock up tightly. The blade shape is great if you use a knife for general utility cutting boxes, rope, carpet stuff.

There are a bunch of Cold Steel mini models at the blade length you need, and the Triad lock is super sturdy. I would gave no problem carrying one locked open in a sheath and considering it a fixed blade for purposes that don't involve stabbing sheet metal. I think this is a good option in your situation.

If your locality isn't all up in peoples grills about a sap or blackjack, that would be my pick hands down. Coin purse whacker.

If you are handy with needle and thread, you could stitch some lead shot into a ball cap style hat for a good surprise sap.

Get a doctor to sign off on use of a can for your back issues is also an excellent way to stay armed that NO ONE will mess with you on if you work your phrasing right...

[sharps54]

Improvised weapons are a great point, I'll have to think on that. I heard a podcast where Steve Fisher discussed improving and that is a great tool NPE or not.

I work on a military base so I'm not willing to risk carrying a folder open, in the unlikely chance it is seen I don't think it would pass the smell test. I work with PMO and could probably get a pass if I was caught but I'm not willing to risk my job to skirt the rules. My understanding is that Virginia also precludes fixed blades.

Locally FPF offers a class on basic knife skills that covers folders, I hope to take it this year.

I really like the idea of carrying my cane except for two points. First is that I don't always need it and I would feel a little "foppish" using it as a walking stick on my good days, which are most of the time. Second is the difficulty in finding good training but that is something I just need to keep looking for.

[SLN]

Steve Tarani puts on a great improvised weapons class. He covers using everyday items such as pens, belts, shirts, scarfs, small flashlights, sticks, etc. to defend yourself. More information can be found here:

https://stevetarani.com/courses/unarmed-defense/non-ballistic-weapons/

[voodoo_man]

Improvised weapons are a great point, I'll have to think on that. I heard a podcast where Steve Fisher discussed improving and that is a great tool NPE or not.

I work on a military base so I'm not willing to risk carrying a folder open, in the unlikely chance it is seen I don't think it would pass the smell test. I work with PMO and could probably get a pass if I was caught but I'm not willing to risk my job to skirt the rules. My understanding is that Virginia also precludes fixed blades.

Locally FPF offers a class on basic knife skills that covers folders, I hope to take it this year.

I really like the idea of carrying my cane except for two points. First is that I don't always need it and I would feel a little "foppish" using it as a walking stick on my good days, which are most of the time. Second is the difficulty in finding good training but that is something I just need to keep looking for.

Monkey fist = key chain or bottle holder
F701 pen = best daily worn stabber

FLCknives.Com has some cool stuff, I'll be posting some photos of their blades/sharp pointy stuff.

[Hambo]

It's big to carry around unless you're an electrician or carpenter, but it might not look out of place in your desk.

https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-48-22-1901-Fastback-Utility-Knife/dp/B003I85GT6%3Fpsc%3D1%26SubscriptionId%3DAKIAILSHYY TFIVPWUY6Q%26tag%3Dduckduckgo-ffab-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165 953%26creativeASIN%3DB003I85GT6

[Norville]

Spyderco sells a Kahr edition of the Delica with a 2.5" blade and full size grip. The design was based on Mike Janich's regrinds for NPE such as yours. It's my Boston / Chicago choice. Speaking of Janich, he offers great improvised weapon training as well as his straight knife material.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Spyderco sells a Kahr edition of the Delica with a 2.5" blade and full size grip. The design was based on Mike Janich's regrinds for NPE such as yours. It's my Boston / Chicago choice. Speaking of Janich, he offers great improvised weapon training as well as his straight knife material.

Three different handle colors:

http://www.kahr.com/Kahr-Branded-Cutlery/Kahr-Branded-Cutlery.asp

[Kanati]

Monkey fist = key chain or bottle holder
F701 pen = best daily worn stabber

FLCknives.Com has some cool stuff, I'll be posting some photos of their blades/sharp pointy stuff.

The "Get off Me Tool #4" sure looks like a section of a carbon arrow. The higher the size (spine) number in the link, the stronger the arrow. A pencil sized piece would be really strong, and I'm betting pretty effective in this role.

http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/archery/hunting-arrows/heritage--

[Andy in NH]

You can get a folding blade welded in place (or drilled) and get a sheath made up for it.

I was also going to suggest carrying a folder as a fixed blade.

[Cory]

I'm not an expert by any means, on contact weapons or NPEs. I've dealt with both (more NPE) but am by no means an authority on either.

Being prepared without looking prepared is tricky. Things to think on:
-Can I carry a Black Jack/Sap? Legality and raised eyebrows? Maybe a small pouch for your coins. Or a neato 550 keychain (https://www.google.com/search?q=Top+Popper+shiv+works&biw=1093&bih=521&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB2K3CmNbRAhUn0YMKHQrCA34Q_AUIBygC#tbm= isch&q=Keychain+sap). A long cowboy style wallet is a good stand in.
-A solid pen carried clipped under the shirt in the button area of a polo. Accessible with both hands, and generally a good idea in NPE. So you can write things down. Check out this post, and this entire thread really. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19833-Tactical-Pens-What-do-you-like-and-why&p=424642&viewfull=1#post424642)
-Top popper (https://www.google.com/search?q=Top+Popper+shiv+works&biw=1093&bih=521&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB2K3CmNbRAhUn0YMKHQrCA34Q_AUIBygC). Difficult top find, and I have zero experience with them. Designed by Shivworks tells me it is a good option. It's a can opener... and if needed can open someone's can. I suggest a non tactical color.
-Solid flashlight. A solid construction could make a tighter fist.
-Durable belt. A solid swing with a durable belt can blister someone's ass. Or stationary, it may hold up pants. Keys on a neck lanyard have a similar effect as a belt with a buckle.
-Empty hand technique and skill
While not always possible, the Nike defense also has merit. It should at least be mentioned.
All of this is of course in addition to what ever knife you can find that foots the bill. If going folder, a wave type option may be handy. I have a nice little knife called the SOG Twitch II. It works for me in a warehouse, and isn't perfect for defense but is a solid little pointy thing. Add it to the pile of things to look at.

Hopefully this stuff helps people in more than one NPE. Most of this stuff we be good to go anywhere but it definitely all comes with limits depending on your specific environment, legality, personal level of acceptable risk, and physical ability. None of it is as good as we would like to have should we need any of it. Being on a military base some things should seem more "of the norm" in your area, hopefully opening up new options.

-Cory

[StraitR]

For casual but strict NPE's, I second Voodoo's suggestion of a Zebra F701 pen, and I also carry a SureFire EB1. I carry these anyplace I'm likely to be subjected to a security screening (airports.. .gov buildings... Disney). I also carry a minimal IFAK as "gun free zones" have a strange way of attracting crazies set on violence. Pic below of my last visit to an airport. Pen in bag.

Extra credit to anyone who can recognize the airport by the hideous carpet.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5516/30102935792_a0f8532b40_c.jpg

[Duelist]

I was also going to suggest carrying a folder as a fixed blade.

Welded or pinned, it's no longer a folder, which might cause more problems than it's worth in a state or NPE where carry of a folder in a pocket is fine, but a non-folder of the same size wouldn't be.

[Andy in NH]

Welded or pinned, it's no longer a folder, which might cause more problems than it's worth in a state or NPE where carry of a folder in a pocket is fine, but a non-folder of the same size wouldn't be.

I never suggested welding or pinning.

Lock it open, put it in a sheath and carry it.

[HCM]

For casual but strict NPE's, I second Voodoo's suggestion of a Zebra F701 pen, and I also carry a SureFire EB1. I carry these anyplace I'm likely to be subjected to a security screening (airports.. .gov buildings... Disney). I also carry a minimal IFAK as "gun free zones" have a strange way of attracting crazies set on violence. Pic below of my last visit to an airport. Pen in bag.

Extra credit to anyone who can recognize the airport by the hideous carpet.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5516/30102935792_a0f8532b40_c.jpg

It's been a while but Jacksonville ?

[Duelist]

I never suggested welding or pinning.

Lock it open, put it in a sheath and carry it.

Hmm. The guy you quoted above did.

And it's still maybe not such a good idea in all environments.

[voodoo_man]

Zebra f701 pen (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002L6RB80/)

[Irelander]

For casual but strict NPE's, I second Voodoo's suggestion of a Zebra F701 pen, and I also carry a SureFire EB1. I carry these anyplace I'm likely to be subjected to a security screening (airports.. .gov buildings... Disney). I also carry a minimal IFAK as "gun free zones" have a strange way of attracting crazies set on violence. Pic below of my last visit to an airport. Pen in bag.

Extra credit to anyone who can recognize the airport by the hideous carpet.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5516/30102935792_a0f8532b40_c.jpg

What IFAK is that?

[StraitR]

It's been a while but Jacksonville ?

I wish. haha. It's Vegas.


What IFAK is that?

ITS EDC (The older version)...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8129/30215211126_39f36c7278_c.jpg

[vcdgrips]

Parker Jotter( the all stainless steel model) for us tie and collared shirt types is a go to "tactical pen" for the NPE etc.
The 701 is not all stainless steel unless you get the tip and clicker part from a 402 and retro fit. Too much of a PITA for me.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The 701 is not all stainless steel unless you get the tip and clicker part from a 402 and retro fit. Too much of a PITA for me.

I'd put it off for a while for the same reason, but it really isn't that big of a hassle.

[Irelander]

Just saw a couple of options for folding knives under 2.5 inches.

DPx HEAT (https://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_store.html?ttl=Heat%20Series&k=Heat&brand=268&series=3251&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=outdoor&utm_campaign=outdoor-2017-1-28&kcno=123&mc_cid=3a72f36359&mc_eid=6824d63f67)

Boker Plus Pen Knife (https://www.knifecenter.com/item/BO01BO047/boker-plus-urban-survival-pen-size-knife-blade-black-aluminum-handles?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=weekend-special&utm_campaign=friday-sale-item-2017-1-27&kcno=123&mc_cid=f0871e9940&mc_eid=6824d63f67)

I don't have experience with either but I know DPx knives are well regarded and the Boker is very low profile.

[cjb1911]

I love carrying my dpx heat, it feels stout in hand plus it has a awesome bottle opener that can also function as a "Emerson wave". Although I mostly use it for beer consumption.

[RevolverRob]

Kershaw-Emerson CQC-3K - Best buy under $30 for a <2.5 folder with a Wave. Can be setup for P'kal style carry. http://www.dlttrading.com/kershaw-emerson-cqc-3k-tanto-frame-lock

Kitchen paring knives in your bag/backpack for peeling or cutting your apple at lunch. - https://www.swissarmy.com/us/en/Products/Cutlery/Paring-Knives/Swiss-Classic-Shaping-Knife/p/6.7503

Other Fixed Blades that may work and are less "obvious" as tactical tools -

Bark River Knives City Knife, based on an old Loveless design http://www.dlttrading.com/city-knife-s35vn-blue-gold-elder-burl-2

Bark River Knives Mikro Canadian - http://www.dlttrading.com/mikro-canadian-cpm154-black-g-10

A.G. Russell Woodswalker (which also can be had with a variety of sheaths) - https://agrussell.com/knife/189

[RevolverRob]

I forgot to add some commentary in my earlier post.

There aren't many folders without Axis-locks and Waves that I would trust wholeheartedly. I like the CQC-3Ks because they have a fairly sturdy frame-lock, a Wave, the blade holds a good edge, they are just small enough to be innocuous, but have enough "handle" to use effectively. AND they are inexpensive, which is the real bonus. Best in the sub-$50 market, in my opinion.

Moving on - I recommended mostly fixed blades, because I've honestly found in my experience (academic NPE) that small fixed blades are viewed favorably. Something with nice scales and a leather pocket sheath isn't seen as a "weapon", but as a "tool". If you use it to cut your apple at lunch a couple of days a week for a month or so, no one will ever bat an eye at it again. You also have the advantage of getting more handle length to blade-length. The downside is, of course, that they don't carry quite as easily as a small folder. Simultaneously, you're not worried about lock failure, ever. If you go inexpensive like the Woodswalker, again you lost it, you're out about 30 bucks. If a security guy claims it? You're out 30 bucks. If you have to ditch it in a planter, because you forgot to take it out before the metal detector and lose it? 30 bucks.

Remember that NPE isn't just about "improvised" weapons. It's about misdirection. People will almost never look twice at a knife that looks like something their grandfather or uncle would carry. But sure as your born, a 2.5" fixed blade could ruin someone's day, permanently, even clumsily wielded, and with skill? It's over. But no one needs to know about any skillsets with a blade, unless they become applicable. Or put another way - the best camouflage is to hide in plain sight.

[Irelander]

The CRKT Minimalist is also a great low profile fixed blade option.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47624012/CRKT%20Mini.JPG

[RJ]

The CRKT Minimalist is also a great low profile fixed blade option.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47624012/CRKT%20Mini.JPG

I just won one of these in the DotW drawings.

The sheath is ok, but are you aware of any decent sheath alternatives for belt carry for the non-expert (meaning I would just flail away like crazy if I needed it)?

It would be supplementing my EDC Mini Grip (left), carried clipped on my strong side pocket.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170201/02bf41fbde62f19a8eb091bea447ca1d.jpg

[JCS]

I just won one of these in the DotW drawings.

The sheath is ok, but are you aware of any decent sheath alternatives for belt carry for the non-expert (meaning I would just flail away like crazy if I needed it)?

It would be supplementing my EDC Mini Grip (left), carried clipped on my strong side pocket.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170201/02bf41fbde62f19a8eb091bea447ca1d.jpg

DSG makes a sheath for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Irelander]

The sheath isn't bad. I put a soft loop on mine and carry it the same way I carry a CP.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47624012/CRKT_Minimalist_Carry.JPG

[Rex G]

I saw one reply that recommended carrying a folding knife in the open position, in a sheath. Well, as of the time I researched this very thing, there are jurisdictions that specifically prohibit carrying a folding knife opened, in a sheath. LEOSA lets me carry a handgun in most of the USA, but is not knife-friendly, which is why I was researching the topic. This was during my pre-iPad days, so I do not have any links saved.

My favored micro-folder is the original Spyderco Kiwi, which I can actually grip very firmly, though that shorter edition of the Delica, that I just saw mentioned in this thread, now has my urgent attention.

I have usually avoided using a walking stick or cane, as I am still an active police patrol officer, not on light-duty status, but I will be retiring soon, and really do have several issues with my feet and legs, and balance, that could truthfully justify the extra support, at times. I even have a nasty scar, just below one knee, from an injury, and resulting surgery, to show to a persistently inquisitive security person, though that particular injury is actually fully healed.

[RevolverRob]

to show to a persistently inquisitive security person, though that particular injury is actually fully healed.

It's important to know. That you are not required to demonstrate positive impairment at any exact moment. ADA defines disabled persons as:


Title III protects three categories of individuals with disabilities:

1) Individuals who have a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities;

2) Individuals who have a record of a physical or mental impairment that substantially limited one or more of the individual's major life activities; and

3) Individuals who are regarded as having such an impairment, whether they have the impairment or not.


The law is deliberately broad to prevent discrimination and denial of services due to disability, perceived or real. So, if you have a persistently inquisitive security person, ask them if they want to investigate your hemorrhoids, because they sure are a substantial impairment to life's activities and you need your cane for scratching them...no one wants an itchy asshole...