Functioning in sub zero temps.

[Lost River]

Friends,

This last weekend I was up at a friends house in central Idaho for a shoot. Aside from the camaraderie, it was a great opportunity to see how gear and people would function in the cold.

On the drive up I had the heater going full blast in my old FJ62, and it was still not quite enough. My local weather was around 13 below, with the wind chill factor it was around 35 below.

I ended up driving with some of my late season hunting/mountaineering clothing, as it was a fairly chilly ride. The next morning I ended up using my backpack stove inside the rig to unthaw everything. I made mention of this in the "winter wonderland" thread.I dang near broke the key off in the door trying to get the old FJ unlocked. The local temp was 17 below and there was a very slight breeze. A good opportunity to see how things would function.

At the gathering we started off with some pistol drills and it was immediately apparent, and discussed that the handgun ammo was not performing like it did in warmer weather. I was running a G34 and it felt sluggish, as if I was shooting .380s. I was using a mix of Blazer ball and some Federal ball. instead of the usual sharp crack of a report, the ammo was making a light "Pop" sound. Very scientific, I know, but I did not have a chrono and I doubt one would work long in the temperature anyways. The G34 seemed to be barely cycling. I had a single failure to fire, and in examining the round, it had a very light primer strike. On a second go-round, the cartridge fired.

On a personal performance note, I noted that my speed was restricted by clothing, and overall I felt like I was losing 15% or so on the combo of speed and accuracy. On the positive side, I have a fiber optic front sight, and it was so bright, due to all the snow, that it looked like it could have been battery powered.

Also, as could be expected, due to loading mags, and handling metal, hands/fingers got pretty cold, and there was nowhere near the normal tactile feel of the trigger. It was not a huge issue, due to being quite familiar with the trigger pull on the Austrian plastic guns, but i noted that it could be a real problem if you were working with unfamiliar gear

Rifles. I was running my old, ultra reliable Colt that I have had since the 90s. This is where things really fell apart. We were taking turns doing a drill and when it was my turn I stepped up and dropped the hammer, only to hear a "CLICK". I did the usual immediate action stuff and 3 more times all I received was a "CLICK". The gun was fairly well lubed with a teflon based lubricant, and it was absolutely dead in the water.

I ended up pulling my BCG, and using a leatherman, I held it over some red hot coals in the outdoor stove. After heating it up, I disassembled it, wiped almost all of the lube off and re-assembled it. After that the rifle ran flawlessly. I also noted, and multiple people discussed that the rifle ammo/powder did not seem to be affected hardly at all by the extreme cold.

On another note, I have both a TA01 4X ACOG, and a side mounted red dot mounted on the old Colt. The RDO's batteries did not last 30 minutes in the extreme cold.


Overall it was a fun gathering, with great people, and an excellent opportunity to examine how semi autos functioned in that environment.

Also, I took some pics while I was traveling, and will post them in the Winter Wonderland thread.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/SalmonJan2017/P1010793_zps7iughzkc.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/SalmonJan2017/P1010793_zps7iughzkc.jpg.html)

[JHC]

What sort of gloves did you shoot pistols with in -17 temps?

[Lost River]

The gloves were plain old "Mechanix"

The key is that when you are not shooting or handling a weapon, you have your hands up against your body, usually under garments, keeping them kind of unthawed.

[45dotACP]

Interesting...especially because if you can function in cold weather you could gain significant advantage over whatever shithead is trying to shoot you, given the fact that if you've got to deal with it, so does the shithead.

[JHC]

The gloves were plain old "Mechanix"

The key is that when you are not shooting or handling a weapon, you have your hands up against your body, usually under garments, keeping them kind of unthawed.

Dang. Using that grade of glove shooting or hunting, my hands feel like needles being driven through them in 20 minutes in the 20's much less -17.

[Malamute]

......

[Drang]

Uncle Sam issues, or used to issue, a different weapons lube for extreme cold weather, "LAW", Lubricant Arctic Weather.

Also, because of my MOS, I used to study everything I could find on the Korean War. Supposedly, the Chinese used powdered graphite to lube weapons when it got so cold even The Hawk wouldn't come out, and the then-GI issue LSA (Lubricant, Small Arms) would turn to a thick goo.

Short story long: Made the front page of the Indianhead, (Second Infantry Division's newspaper) while conducting training for the 102nd MI Battalion on "Cold Weather Operations." My assigned topic was "Weapons Care." Since I was (IIRC) on my 6th tour on the peninsula at the time, this was a subject I knew something about.

Unfortunately, the S3 decreed that I would have an M2 Machine Gun as a prop. This was unfortunate because D Company had no M2 Machine Guns. In fact, I had never been assigned to a unit that had Ma Deuce. (I did get to fam fire one. Once. 10 rounds, IIRC.)

So I had to sign for one from HHC.

Theirs was deadlined and tagged for turn in.

So the photo of "SFC Drang instructing LT Soandso on cold weather operations of the M2HB Machine Gun" was slightly inaccurate. (Especially since she had been qualified on Ma Deuce as an NCO, and was trying to show me how to set the headspace and timing without the Go/No Go gauges)

[Win94ae]

I've used my AK in -30°F with regular axel grease, and had no Ill effects; on the firearm or ammo. I have shot all my guns using that grease, and motor oil, in those conditions, and only found one issue; cartridges using H414 powder would hangfire.

[SLG]

Boy do I miss those days! In that kind of dry, extreme cold, nothing beat Mukluks, imo. Cotton becomes viable again as a shell layer, and USUALLY, the bad guys are too afraid to come out. Not always though, and I've spent some memorable times hunting men in sub zero conditions. I've found that my old standby lube, Mil-tec, works pretty well. Also, though I'm usually too afraid to clean a gun for fear of pissing off the little men inside, a clean gun, properly lubed, seems to do better in those temps. Not scientific at all, just my experience.

[Lost River]

The lube type and amount was the obvious take-away from the exercise. Like I said previously, as soon as the BCG only had a light coat, the AR ran like a top.

I have a feeling that the thickness/viscosity was the key. A light coat of low viscosity oil being the obvious choice for temps that low.

I am hoping to get a day to go wabbit hunting with my AR in sub zero temps again soon, and will give it a go.

[Jeep]

We did some live fire exercises in Alaska "back in the day," at around -25 degrees and found that our non-lubricated M-16's did fine for 100 rounds or so each, and our M-60's did the same with 300+ rounds each. In reaction to SLG's comments above, I'll say that our weapons had been thoroughly cleaned ahead of time--the reason they had no lube on them was not the cold weather but because oil makes a weapon look dirty so we were basically never allowed to lube them. (Indeed, while we were sparingly issued LSA for machine guns, were weren't issued any lube for rifles because of that dirt thing.). But sometimes brain-dead maintenance procedures work.

Question, though, whether those weapons would have worked if the round counts gone up and the weapons really heated up. I don't think so.

[Lost River]

Pretty interesting comments so far from guys who have done the negative double digit thing.

One other thing that I pondered;


It was obvious that the handgun ammo was really not performing, velocity wise, as it was designed to. I get the feeling that I was probably running at .380 velocities.

I was wondering if 9x19 JHP projectiles would open up or not. If the projectile was supposed to work within a velocity window, I was curious if the 9mm JHPs would end up performing like FMJs?

Is going to a larger caliber a prudent course of action when it is 20 below?

If the projectiles are not going to open up, what do you guys think?

[Jeep]

Pretty interesting comments so far from guys who have done the negative double digit thing.

One other thing that I pondered;


It was obvious that the handgun ammo was really not performing, velocity wise, as it was designed to. I get the feeling that I was probably running at .380 velocities.

I was wondering if 9x19 JHP projectiles would open up or not. If the projectile was supposed to work within a velocity window, I was curious if the 9mm JHPs would end up performing like FMJs?

Is going to a larger caliber a prudent course of action when it is 20 below?

If the projectiles are not going to open up, what do you guys think?

I don't know. I do know that there were a lot of reports during the Korean War that some of the .30 carbine ammunition seemed to lose velocity during the cold winters. Of course, there were a lot of fairly dubious claims about the carbine then, but those stories provide some (though non quantifiable) support for the idea that cartridges can lose some of their velocity in the ultra cold.

And, of course, there is that old tradition of using wadcutters in the winter both because they will penetrate heavy clothing and because pistol rounds may not open up. So big bullets or wadcutters might be a sensible way to go when it really, really gets cold.

[Drang]

And, of course, there is that old tradition of using wadcutters in the winter both because they will penetrate heavy clothing and because pistol rounds may not open up. So big bullets or wadcutters might be a sensible way to go when it really, really gets cold.

Waiting patiently for Colt to bring back the Alaskan...:cool:

[SLG]

I hate to say it, but I'm not going to switch calibers for extreme cold. I'm also not in it anymore:-(

Whether or not that's a good idea, I have no idea. Mas Ayoob was a fan of the concept, back in the day, but that had more to do with smaller hollowpoints plugging, rather than velocity, iirc. NH winters may not be as cold as MT or ID, but they are more miserable.

Maybe Doc will chime in.

[blues]

I hate to say it, but I'm not going to switch calibers for extreme cold. I'm also not in it anymore:-(

Whether or not that's a good idea, I have no idea. Mas Ayoob was a fan of the concept, back in the day, but that had more to do with smaller hollowpoints plugging, rather than velocity, iirc. NH winters may not be as cold as MT or ID, but they are more miserable.

Maybe Doc will chime in.

Having camped at and climbed Mt. Washington (White Mountains of NH) and Mt. Marcy (Adirondacks of NY) multiple times in the dead of winter I can attest to how miserable they can be, especially when out in it for several days on end.

[Drang]

Having camped at and climbed Mt. Washington (White Mountains of NH) and Mt. Marcy (Adirondacks of NY) multiple times in the dead of winter I can attest to how miserable they can be, especially when out in it for several days on end.

IIRC, MT Washington in NH is supposed to have the most severe weather in the Lower 48, if not all of the USA.

[GJM]

When I first moved to Alaska, I was a 1911 shooter. The first winter changed that, as a thumb safety, a 1911 trigger, and a 1911 trigger guard were problems for me. I switched to an HK USP Compact 45 with a LEM trigger. I found even the Glock trigger guard to be too small for winter gloves.

In long guns, my NP3 coated 14 inch 870 seems to work even in extreme cold. A long gun is much easier to control than a heavy caliber handgun, shot with cold hands.

I went to a two glove system, consisting of a thin liner glove with mittens over the thin gloves. In Alaska, animals and criminals have adapted to operating in the extreme cold.

[blues]

IIRC, MT Washington in NH is supposed to have the most severe weather in the Lower 48, if not all of the USA.

It had, (or may still have), the record for the highest winds. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Washington_(New_Hampshire)) When I last climbed it, the number of deaths on the mountain stood at about 120 or so.

I remember reading that it was considered an arctic island (in meteorological terms).

[GJM]

It had, (or may still have), the record for the highest winds. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Washington_(New_Hampshire)) When I last climbed it, the number of deaths on the mountain stood at about 120 or so.

I remember reading that it was considered an arctic island (in meteorological terms).

Perhaps the record for highest recorded winds, 230 mph +/-, as I recall. I have no doubt there have been higher winds in other spots in the high mountains, without measuring equipment. I have been to that summit many times, and ice climbed for years on that mountain.

[blues]

Perhaps the record for highest recorded winds, 230 mph +/-, as I recall. I have no doubt there have been higher winds in other spots in the high mountains, without measuring equipment. I have been to that summit many times, and ice climbed for years on that mountain.

Sorry, I thought it was pretty apparent that the record is only for the period of time (and locations) that such data was cataloged and maintained.

Thank you, Capt. Obvious. ;)

(Don't make me pull out my Stubai and crampons...)

[GJM]

Sorry, but as someone that most days, pilots various sized aircraft, almost always in the mountains, the wind is the single biggest outside influence on my life and happiness (flying).

[GJM]

For weather geeks:

https://www.mountwashington.org/about-us/history/world-record-wind.aspx

[Crawls]

I have to admit that I'm highly disappointed that there is no picture posted of the FJ62 mentioned in the OP. Such a tease.

[Lost River]

I have to admit that I'm highly disappointed that there is no picture posted of the FJ62 mentioned in the OP. Such a tease.

BOOM!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/SalmonJan2017/P1010796_zpsxq5memgs.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/SalmonJan2017/P1010796_zpsxq5memgs.jpg.html)

[JTQ]

I dang near broke the key off in the door trying to get the old FJ unlocked. The local temp was 17 below and there was a very slight breeze. A good opportunity to see how things would function.
I lived in Northern Maine for several years, and remember having to enter my Toyota Celica from the rear hatch since it was the only opening I could get enough leverage on to open. I climbed through the back to get in and start the car.


At the gathering we started off with some pistol drills and it was immediately apparent, and discussed that the handgun ammo was not performing like it did in warmer weather. I was running a G34 and it felt sluggish, as if I was shooting .380s. The G34 seemed to be barely cycling. I had a single failure to fire, and in examining the round, it had a very light primer strike. On a second go-round, the cartridge fired.

Rifles. I was running my old, ultra reliable Colt that I have had since the 90s. This is where things really fell apart. We were taking turns doing a drill and when it was my turn I stepped up and dropped the hammer, only to hear a "CLICK". I did the usual immediate action stuff and 3 more times all I received was a "CLICK". The gun was fairly well lubed with a teflon based lubricant, and it was absolutely dead in the water.
I've often wondered if hammer fired guns would have an advantage in extreme cold vs striker fired guns. Reading the above also makes me wonder if the partially cocked striker of the Glock is an advantage as the trigger movement pulling the striker back may loosen things up a bit.

[Lost River]

As soon as we have another decent cold spell, I am going to take a few different guns out and see how well they run.

I have used bolt guns in colder temps than the what we were shooting in last weekend, and never had an issue, but I cannot think of a time when I was using auto/semi auto guns colder than 20 below.

[Crawls]

BOOM!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/SalmonJan2017/P1010796_zpsxq5memgs.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/SalmonJan2017/P1010796_zpsxq5memgs.jpg.html)

Very cool (pun intended.)
Thanks.

[5pins]

I don’t think a hammer fired gun will provide and advantage. I see P2000's come in all the time because lube gets in and starts gumming up the works. As long as the firing pin channel is clean and dry a striker fired will work just as well.

No matter what you do some lube is going to find its way into the firing pin channel. I think its important to lube correctly and use the proper lube.

Once in a while I get to play with some really cool toys at my job. A few weeks ago I was able to freeze my Beretta 92A1 to -40. I let it and a full mag sit for about two hours and then shot it. I did have one misfire but the velocity was slightly higher then normal. I'm going to try and do some more when I get a chance.

[Jeep]

I went to a two glove system, consisting of a thin liner glove with mittens over the thin gloves. In Alaska, animals and criminals have adapted to operating in the extreme cold.

This was the Army system as well, and it worked. When we wanted to be able to shoot we took the firing-hand mitten off (making sure that we snapped the mittens to our parks--losing those mitten could mean severe frost bite.

One thing I observed is that when you were moving on a live-fire course (moving in snowshoes because the snow was so deep) your shooting hand was fine with just the glove liner on even at ridiculously low temperatures. And you were still good if you were shooting. But once the exercise was over and you were waiting for the helicopters, you had to get the mittens back on ASAP.

I admire you for being able to put up with that cold. After a while in service, I grew to be able to deal with temperatures from zero to 20 degrees. Zero to negative ten was tough. But temperatures lower than negative 10 were just bad. We were once on a mountain where the temperature was something like -40 or 50, and we were told the wind chill made it feel like -70. It was so bad that I couldn't fathom how people can fight in weather like that. Yet they've certainly done so.

[Malamute]

An old WWII vet I knew told me their Garands wouldn't cycle for the first clip or two until they warmed up a little. I don't recall the temps and where he was, or when. It was the late 80s when I met him and visited him several times over the next few years.

[luckyman]

An old WWII vet I knew told me their Garands wouldn't cycle for the first clip or two until they warmed up a little. I don't recall the temps and where he was, or when. It was the late 80s when I met him and visited him several times over the next few years.

I remember my Dad telling me that during the Battle of the Bulge his Garand never hiccuped once. He went home early from that one though, with a bronze star and another Purple Heart. I think the temps on that one were tough on soldiers but weren't all that cold on an absolute basis (teens I think; could be wrong)

[Hambo]

Is going to a larger caliber a prudent course of action when it is 20 below?

Is violent crime really a problem when it's 20 below? :confused:

[GJM]

Is violent crime really a problem when it's 20 below? :confused:


It is at +6 in Anchorage. Bad guys can get jackets and adjust to the cold just like everyone else living in northern climates.

[Hambo]

That was a semi-serious question. I grew up and worked in the Midwest so I've experienced cold. But when it got really cold crime tended to drop off and the FD got busy as people did stupid things to stay warm.

[5pins]

If memory serves me right I remember reading about solders in North Korea having to clean their M1’s, both Garands and carbines, with gasoline to get all the lube off to make them function.

[GJM]

That was a semi-serious question. I grew up and worked in the Midwest so I've experienced cold. But when it got really cold crime tended to drop off and the FD got busy as people did stupid things to stay warm.

I had a MUC near ECQC moment in Anchorage Wednesday morning at +6, so it is a recent lesson.

[SLG]

Hambo, in general, I think there is no question that crime crime drops off. Off course, you may still be elected.

And in some places, the cold can spur other types of awful crime that would be less likely to occur in the summer.

[Wondering Beard]

And in some places, the cold can spur other types of awful crime that would be less likely to occur in the summer.

There's a reason for the season?

[Hambo]

Hambo, in general, I think there is no question that crime crime drops off. Off course, you may still be elected.

And in some places, the cold can spur other types of awful crime that would be less likely to occur in the summer.


Got it.

[idahojess]

This thread is motivating me to get out and shoot. It's been hanging around the single digits here and currently snowing-- hard enough just to exercise the dog every day. It doesn't usually get that cold here -- typically more teens and twenties (and fog) in the winter. My two ranges are outdoors -- can be quite windy, too, by nature.

I am noticing that my extreme cold weather clothing could use some improvements (insulated boots, particularly). I admire people getting out in the sub-zeros -- that's frickin cold.

If I remember correctly, the book "The Last Stand of Fox Company" had some very good descriptions of the weapons (even Garands) freezing at Chosin in 1950. I'm not in any way an expert, but I always wondered whether a DI gun might be easier to deal with than an operating rod gun in the extreme cold. I imagine that is entirely dependent on the type of gun, lubing, and use. Anything can freeze. We've had two weeks of fairly cold weather here, dipping down to minus 6 at one point, and stuff just seems to be prone to break.

[farscott]

My last experience of shooting in extreme cold was in February of 1995 in the metro Detroit area. That happened to be the month that the thermometer never indicated a high temperature above 0 degrees F. Most of the month had the temperature somewhere between -20 degrees F and 0 degrees F. That was the first time I really became a fan of polymer-framed guns as metal-framed guns, even wearing gloves, acted as heat sinks. My ability to deliver bullets on target was cut, at least, in half. Between gloves and cold, stiff fingers, handling a metal-framed firearm was extremely challenging.

Temperatures above zero are considerably less challenging for me, but, as I age, the cold seems to be more debilitating.

[SLG]

That was the first time I really became a fan of polymer-framed guns as metal-framed guns, even wearing gloves, acted as heat sinks. My ability to deliver bullets on target was cut, at least, in half. Between gloves and cold, stiff fingers, handling a metal-framed firearm was extremely challenging.


This is one reason why my 6.5G, which was conceived and set up for hunting in MT, has a PRI carbon fiber forend. Not nearly as bad to deal with in the cold as a metal forend. I'm tempted to convert my primary squirrel .22 AR to a carbon handguard as well. Anyone know if any polymer or CF handguards will work on a tacsol .22 upper?

[Malamute]

I'm guessing that most people in AK just are used to dealing with cold, including the crooks. In places that don't get as much cold and for as long, it may hole them up a bit more for the colder periods. Nothing but a guess. When Ive travelled in the states in winter, I rarely ever see anyone out and about when its zero or colder. Its my favorite season to travel so long as conditions aren't too bad.

[5pins]

It’s not just about crime. When the Russians come it will be in January not August.

[Hambo]

It’s not just about crime. When the Russians come it will be in January not August.

Heat stroke and Dengue will thin them out here.

[Malamute]

Was just reading this and DING! I remembered I had some Steger Mukluks in my shed packed away. My regular pacs haven't been keeping my feet warm. I think the Stegers I have have double felt liners.

Going digging in the shed.....

[Win94ae]

It’s not just about crime. When the Russians come it will be in January not August.

..and since we don't know exactly when, we must practice in the worst of those seasons.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ye3QO7LcQM

Of course, that isn't the "worst," but you get the idea.

[Kyle Reese]

Heat stroke and Dengue will thin them out here.

Non-existent field sanitation practices (http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/afgmed/afgmed.htm) too.

[NEPAKevin]

I remember my Dad telling me that during the Battle of the Bulge his Garand never hiccuped once. He went home early from that one though, with a bronze star and another Purple Heart. I think the temps on that one were tough on soldiers but weren't all that cold on an absolute basis (teens I think; could be wrong)

One problem that was probably discovered the hard way is that the bolts can freeze up. When I brought home my Garand, only gun my dad ever seemed to approve of, even though it was summer time, I got a lecture on the importance of making sure the bolt was not frozen so as not to blow off my face. (He was a WWII and Korean war vet.) IIRC, there is a scene in the movie Battleground (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleground_(film)) where a soldier forgets to check his Garand's bolt and it KBs.

[Lost River]

I just got back in from teaching the oldest daughter/and her friend about building snow caves/shelters. I gave them a quick lesson about skiers getting lost/off trail and freezing to death due to not knowing how to build a simple cave.

These pics are crappy because it was dark out but they were having fun.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/miscellaneous/IMG_2493_zpswh2z5il2.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/miscellaneous/IMG_2493_zpswh2z5il2.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/miscellaneous/IMG_2494_zps4wr3gesv.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/miscellaneous/IMG_2494_zps4wr3gesv.jpg.html)

[fishing]

can you give me a 3 sentence snow cave 101? I know nothing about it.

[Lost River]

As can be expected, during winter temps can get nasty cold, well below zero.

Wind/wind chill adds to this danger.

A properly constructed snow cave keeps you out of those elements and substantially warmer.

It can literally be 20 below outside the cave and 30-32 degrees inside, for a temp difference of 50 degrees.

There are numerous ways to make one, but for this exercise, I had the girls pile up more snow on an existing pile, then walk on, tamping down the snow, compacting it. Doing this right, and not half assed it crucial.

Then essentially you are building an igloo, more or less. You can also have a sort of "U" shaped entrance to crawl through that allows the cold air to sink to that location, and the warmer air to be trapped in where you are at.

There is a lot more to it, but that is the punchline.

[Drang]

IIRC one of the keys is that the inside surface must be smooth so that any melting snow will flow, and not drip on you.

[Rex G]

Interesting reading, in the original post, and in many of the replies. Some winters, here on the SE Texas Coastal Prairie, 50 miles inland, pass without one freezing night. My cold weather gear, what little there is of it, can spend years in the closet, untouched.

[Drang]

Did Ii mention that one of the most important things about functioning in sub-zero temperatures is going to the bathroom when you need to, not waiting until you can do so when it's comfortable to do so?
Your body burns a lot of energy keeping your bladder from freezing...

(That's the NCO version. I am sure the medical version would be more accurate, but less entertaining.)

[fishing]

Did Ii mention that one of the most important things about functioning in sub-zero temperatures is going to the bathroom when you need to, not waiting until you can do so when it's comfortable to do so?
Your body burns a lot of energy keeping your bladder from freezing...

(That's the NCO version. I am sure the medical version would be more accurate, but less entertaining.)

any sources to verify? not calling you out, just does not pass my sniff test (poor choice of words but oh well)

http://img.webmd.com/dtmcms/live/webmd/consumer_assets/site_images/articles/image_article_collections/anatomy_pages/bladder_copy.jpg

not understanding how a less full bladder = less calories burned. wouldnt increased calorie burn help maintain body temp (a good thing?)?

[taadski]

Couple of fun pics from a search and rescue team training a bunch of years back.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/6D2EEEBF-FD69-43B2-96ED-A958D000159B_zpsv7yacd5y.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0149_zpsu9qlqd35.jpg


Re firearms function, I’ve definitely seen some issues using grease in especially cold weather over the years. A light oil (I use Slip) is much less problematic during the winter months, IME.

[Lester Polfus]

This thread is making my hands hurt just looking at it. One perspective that I would give to people: once you freeze your hands up pretty good a couple of times, they are never the same. I froze mine up in the Aleutians working a case and now, even in only moderately cold temperatures I get considerable pain, numbness and tingling. Whenever we do winter hikes, even in temperatures in the 40's, I often have a pair of heavy, insulated gloves with me. Doing tasks like cutting cold meat becomes excruciatingly painful in only a couple of minutes.

[Eyesquared]

any sources to verify? not calling you out, just does not pass my sniff test (poor choice of words but oh well)

http://img.webmd.com/dtmcms/live/webmd/consumer_assets/site_images/articles/image_article_collections/anatomy_pages/bladder_copy.jpg

not understanding how a less full bladder = less calories burned. wouldnt increased calorie burn help maintain body temp (a good thing?)?

Urine is mostly water (by mass). Water has a very high specific heat, so it takes a lot of energy to keep it warm when the environment around is cold. If you expel all that mass it's no longer your problem and the precious calories that would have gone to keeping it warm can be used to heat other things.

[Grey]

Urine is mostly water (by mass). Water has a very high specific heat, so it takes a lot of energy to keep it warm when the environment around is cold. If you expel all that mass it's no longer your problem and the precious calories that would have gone to keeping it warm can be used to heat other things.
But it's already warm in your body, aren't you literally pissing away body heat by urinating? Serious question!

[Eyesquared]

But it's already warm in your body, aren't you literally pissing away body heat by urinating? Serious question!

It's warm now but in the cold your body is constantly losing heat to the environment so calories are being burned to maintain the temperature of your urine. So yes the heat energy in the urine is going to waste in some sense but you're saving yourself the energy it would take to keep it warm.

[TGS]

As can be expected, during winter temps can get nasty cold, well below zero.

Wind/wind chill adds to this danger.

A properly constructed snow cave keeps you out of those elements and substantially warmer.

It can literally be 20 below outside the cave and 30-32 degrees inside, for a temp difference of 50 degrees.

There are numerous ways to make one, but for this exercise, I had the girls pile up more snow on an existing pile, then walk on, tamping down the snow, compacting it. Doing this right, and not half assed it crucial.

Then essentially you are building an igloo, more or less. You can also have a sort of "U" shaped entrance to crawl through that allows the cold air to sink to that location, and the warmer air to be trapped in where you are at.

There is a lot more to it, but that is the punchline.

That's about what I remember.

Went to college in Vermont. Coldest I was ever out in was -44. Built and slept in a snow cave with 2-3 other people at -20*, felt like it was about 30* inside the cave.

It was also nowhere near as big as the one pictured in Taadski's post. That thing is absolutely palatial compared to how we were taught to build them....the idea being the smaller the interior, the better, as there is less air to heat up.

You are giving your kids an awesome childhood. Awesome work, dude.

[Odin Bravo One]

Coldest I've ever been is easily Afghanistan in '01. "Afghanistan is in the fucking desert!! Why are they asking for winter clothing and snow shoes? They just want to mooch off some of that war money!"

Standard Gortex, and a whole lot of "this sucks" for the first several months. We finally got something more substantial by December, which was good. Very hard to function in some of the areas with flight gloves and sneakers. Sadly, we got it because we generated a single email, got it out to a single wife/gf, (10mpbs was standard for the one external computer) who rallied the other ladies, who then promprtly raided REI, and then called to give our boss an earful as they sent out via USPS about $9k in our own money worth of snow shoes, coats, gloves, hand warmers, whisper lite stoves, and snow tents.

I distinctly remember a dude telling me while I was teetering on hypothermia in training that I would be colder doing the job than I ever dreamed of being in training. The only thing that got me thru the sub-zero temps, and brutal storms was my desire to return, find that fucker, and dick kick him.

But when it wasn't snowing, or the wind blowing 60mph, or your helicopter nearly crashing due to the altitude, the view from the mountains was kind of pretty.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/Sean%20Snow%20Shoes_zps7vflywor.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SavageHunter/media/Sean%20Snow%20Shoes_zps7vflywor.jpg.html)

[GRV]

What's that brown rag on your head? Was that from the REI drop? Looks pretty warm.

[TGS]

Coldest I've ever been is easily Afghanistan in '01. "Afghanistan is in the fucking desert!! Why are they asking for winter clothing and snow shoes? They just want to mooch off some of that war money!"

Standard Gortex, and a whole lot of "this sucks" for the first several months.

Please tell me there was one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siQEIDNebRk

[Malamute]

This thread is making my hands hurt just looking at it. One perspective that I would give to people: once you freeze your hands up pretty good a couple of times, they are never the same. I froze mine up in the Aleutians working a case and now, even in only moderately cold temperatures I get considerable pain, numbness and tingling. Whenever we do winter hikes, even in temperatures in the 40's, I often have a pair of heavy, insulated gloves with me. Doing tasks like cutting cold meat becomes excruciatingly painful in only a couple of minutes.

^^^ This.

I have a concern about my hands becoming too cold to function well (or at all) if I became involved in a problem situation outside in the winter.

[fishing]

Standard Gortex


FYI to those who may not know already...
Goretex and similar fabrics ability to be "waterproof" but transmit water vapor is dependent on fabric treatment (DWR).
A $600 garment can be rendered ineffective because of not using a $15 wash-in/spray-on DWR treatment every so often.

[Eyesquared]

FYI to those who may not know already...
Goretex and similar fabrics ability to be "waterproof" but transmit water vapor is dependent on fabric treatment (DWR).
A $600 garment can be rendered ineffective because of not using a $15 wash-in/spray-on DWR treatment every so often.

I always was under the impression that Goretex was a membrane, not a surface treatment.

[fishing]

I always was under the impression that Goretex was a membrane, not a surface treatment.

http://andrewskurka.com/wp-content/uploads/goretex-schema.png

yes it is a membrane of a sort, key thing is the outer side of it must be protected from abrasion and also have water bead on it. if water doesnt bead on it, it soaks through and negates it's ability to allow vapor to pass thru.

[Lester Polfus]

^^^ This.

I have a concern about my hands becoming too cold to function well (or at all) if I became involved in a problem situation outside in the winter.

Yup. That is a non-trivial concern. When I started noticing significant impairment even in the 40's, I started making sure I had gloves and some chemical handwarmers with me at all times when out in the woods. My ability to do something like get a fire started or shoot a gun goes to shit pretty quick, even in fairly mild temperatures anymore.

[Odin Bravo One]

What's that brown rag on your head? Was that from the REI drop? Looks pretty warm.

Fuck you.

ETA: ima laugh my ass off when your Afro falls out!

[Odin Bravo One]

Yup. That is a non-trivial concern. When I started noticing significant impairment even in the 40's, I started making sure I had gloves and some chemical handwarmers with me at all times when out in the woods. My ability to do something like get a fire started or shoot a gun goes to shit pretty quick, even in fairly mild temperatures anymore.

An Aussie shooting buddy gave me a good tip while we were buried in the snow together for a week..... I now use it any time I'm in anything below 30 for an extended period of time.

Decent weight gloves. Not super heavy, but not from your wife's Madonna lingerie outfit. Something middle of the road that gives enough dexterity to shoot and manipulate your weapon/tools, but warm enough that you won't lose function in five minutes. Then you buy oversized polar mittens. Real polar mittens. Not that shit they sell at Academy's or Dicks. Stitch a short length of 550 at the fingertips to creat a little loop for lack of a better term. 2-2.5" from index to ring or pinky is fine. You can keep your hands and fingers Warmer for longer this way, but you can snag the loop on just about any sharp part of your gun (I used my scope ring mounting nut) and yank them off for quick access to your not frozen fingers in gloves with enough dexterity to kill people that need killin.

[Paul Sharp]

An Aussie shooting buddy gave me a good tip while we were buried in the snow together for a week..... I now use it any time I'm in anything below 30 for an extended period of time.

Decent weight gloves. Not super heavy, but not from your wife's Madonna lingerie outfit. Something middle of the road that gives enough dexterity to shoot and manipulate your weapon/tools, but warm enough that you won't lose function in five minutes. Then you buy oversized polar mittens. Real polar mittens. Not that shit they sell at Academy's or Dicks. Stitch a short length of 550 at the fingertips to creat a little loop for lack of a better term. 2-2.5" from index to ring or pinky is fine. You can keep your hands and fingers Warmer for longer this way, but you can snag the loop on just about any sharp part of your gun (I used my scope ring mounting nut) and yank them off for quick access to your not frozen fingers in gloves with enough dexterity to kill people that need killin.

A climbing instructor taught me something similar except he ran the cord from the thumb to the tip of the fingers. Leave enough slack that you could still grab something and the cord would just lie in the palm of your hand but if you needed to you could hook the cord on something and pull your hand out of the mitten.

I have a better plan though, in 1 year, 4 months, 5 days, 6 hours and 44 minutes I'm just never going to be cold again. :)

[Lester Polfus]

An Aussie shooting buddy gave me a good tip while we were buried in the snow together for a week..... I now use it any time I'm in anything below 30 for an extended period of time.

Decent weight gloves. Not super heavy, but not from your wife's Madonna lingerie outfit. Something middle of the road that gives enough dexterity to shoot and manipulate your weapon/tools, but warm enough that you won't lose function in five minutes. Then you buy oversized polar mittens. Real polar mittens. Not that shit they sell at Academy's or Dicks. Stitch a short length of 550 at the fingertips to creat a little loop for lack of a better term. 2-2.5" from index to ring or pinky is fine. You can keep your hands and fingers Warmer for longer this way, but you can snag the loop on just about any sharp part of your gun (I used my scope ring mounting nut) and yank them off for quick access to your not frozen fingers in gloves with enough dexterity to kill people that need killin.

Thanks for that. Also relieved that I can let the wife's lingerie continue to fufill it's original function...

[Odin Bravo One]

A climbing instructor taught me something similar except he ran the cord from the thumb to the tip of the fingers. Leave enough slack that you could still grab something and the cord would just lie in the palm of your hand but if you needed to you could hook the cord on something and pull your hand out of the mitten.

I have a better plan though, in 1 year, 4 months, 5 days, 6 hours and 44 minutes I'm just never going to be cold again. :)

I was doing that with my fast rope gloves as a new guy, shown by older guys, and use a biner to strip them off quick once on the deck. But when I tried it with my mittens, and doing alpine climbs, the loop always seemed to get caught in my ascender.........(Sean M is not the most coordinated......they made me spit out my dip before a technical ascent cause I couldn't do both).

[Jay Cunningham]

Sean loves shooting in cold weather!

[emoji173][emoji173][emoji173]

[Odin Bravo One]

Please tell me there was one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siQEIDNebRk

No. But we did only get 12 pairs of gloves and mittens. We needed 15. So there was some D&Der shit going on with the rotations until the next mail plane came in.

[blues]

I was doing that with my fast rope gloves as a new guy, shown by older guys, and use a biner to strip them off quick once on the deck. But when I tried it with my mittens, and doing alpine climbs, the loop always seemed to get caught in my ascender.........(Sean M is not the most coordinated......they made me spit out my dip before a technical ascent cause I couldn't do both).

Maybe you should create a line of Chew-Mar™ Ascenders for climbers who like to dip on the vertical trip.

(Been a while since I've used either dip or Jumars.)

[Odin Bravo One]

Sean loves shooting in cold weather!

[emoji173][emoji173][emoji173]

Never again. Wanna know how I know that? No one could afford my non-government rate for shooting...... and since my ass is soon to be RETIRED....... aint gonna freeze it off anymore.