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UNK
01-11-2017, 12:23 PM
A co-worker wants to buy a home defense shotgun. $750.00 aprox is his limit. Pump or semi is OK. What are your recommendations and why please.
Thanks

rjohnson4405
01-11-2017, 12:47 PM
Used 870 Police is a standard of reliability and one of the best shotgun values around.

I think you have to spend more to get into the modern reliable semi-autos.

Not that you asked and you've likely gone down this path, but the new cheaper Colt/S&W ARs would probably be an even better idea if the guy isn't an experienced shotgun user.

Shellback
01-11-2017, 01:09 PM
You can get a Beretta 1301 for $800 from Arms Unlimited which is only slightly above his budget. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/612451710

Myself and a few others from PF have ordered their 1301 from AU and I would recommend them.

Solid gun, reliable, soft recoil, fast and fun gun to shoot. Thread on the 1301T here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10177-Beretta-1301-Tactical

PNWTO
01-11-2017, 01:18 PM
I would have to say the 590A1. Tough, reliable, tang-safety, good aftermarket.

I have a Vang'd barrel and Surefire fore-end on mine and I am very happy.

rjohnson4405
01-11-2017, 01:21 PM
Didn't realize a 1301 was that cheap, that would be my first choice in that case.

Had good success with a 590A1 as well, just seems like I see a ton of used 870Ps relative to 500A1's.

Gadfly
01-11-2017, 01:23 PM
You can find a used 870 police magnum with rifle sights, at Keislers for the $500 range. or an 1187P...

Use the rest of the budget on ammo, training, and practice.

https://www.kiesler.com/product/details/678c4b1d-a930-4bc5-8ba5-6f88c0882137/dept-trade-in-remington-870-police-magnum-rifle-sights-surefire-led-forend-ext-tube-knox-stock-single-point-sling-adapter-blackhawk-shotgun-case/

https://www.kiesler.com/product/details/c6c35ca6-190b-4ea2-8bd2-2cab30ddf5c5/dept-trade-in-remington-1187-p-185-parkerized-semi-auto-trijicon-night-sights-used-issued-condition/

https://www.kiesler.com/product/details/63709cef-c7d5-4d3d-a3d3-a3faadafdd44/remington-870-police-magnum-nib-with-new-nighthawk-custom-mag-extension-kit/

HCM
01-11-2017, 02:41 PM
A co-worker wants to buy a home defense shotgun. $750.00 aprox is his limit. Pump or semi is OK. What are your recommendations and why please.
Thanks

870s are great values but Operator error is the number one issue with pump guns.

If your friend is not a shooter / hunter I'd advise a semi like the 1301 or a budget AR like the S&W sport.

UNK
01-11-2017, 03:49 PM
870s are great values but Operator error is the number one issue with pump guns.

If your friend is not a shooter / hunter I'd advise a semi like the 1301 or a budget AR like the S&W sport.

I know he used to shoot trap but I am not sure what he shot. I looked at the link for the Beretta, I'm lost on that choke type they list, Optima HP Bore. I am assuming whatever that is it can shoot slugs? Any slug or only certain types? Also is there a tube extension for this gun?

psalms144.1
01-11-2017, 03:56 PM
As many have stated, there are a variety of options which are all contradictory. Here are my thoughts:

1. "Home Defense" and "Inexpensive" shouldn't mix
2. Pump action shotguns are prone to user-induced malfunctions, recoil hard, and are, generally, not very pleasant to shoot. Combine those factors, and you get an inexpensive hard to run weapon that the owner likely doesn't train with. As my Russian friends would say: "Diss iss prohblehm"
3. Semiautomatic shotguns are easier on the shooter, are less prone to user-induced malfunctions, but are much more expensive and tend to be somewhat finicky on ammunition. They also only recoil a little less than semis (depending on make and model).
4. All shotguns are low capacity, slow to reload, and generally large (unwieldy in tight quarters)
5. Lots of people believe lots of bad myths about shotguns, their effectiveness as "room clearers" and the "don't have to aim them" BS

For all of the above reasons, I would second (or third, or fourth) an entry-level AR as a MUCH better HD long arm. The AR is smaller, lighter, easier to maneuver, MUCH less prone to user-induced malfunctions, more accurate, MUCH softer recoiling, higher capacity, easier to reload, and plenty hard hitting. It's also much more pleasant to shoot, leading to a higher likelihood of a shooter actually training with their HD weapon (I know, shocking concept!)

If the AR is not practical based on local restrictions on ownership, I would still recommend a good basic handgun over a shotgun. Searching with a handheld light with a pistol in your main hand is easy. Doing so with a shotgun, not so much. Handguns are easier to secure and store, easier to load, easier to shoot (WRT recoil, at a minimum) and more likely to be practiced with than a shotgun.

Don't get me wrong, I think a shotgun, loaded with slugs, in well trained experienced hands is as close to the Finger of God as it's possible to get in defensive weapons, but I definitely don't recommend it for new shooters or non-dedicated users.

Regards,

Kevin

MistWolf
01-11-2017, 04:06 PM
I find the manual of arms and problem solving to be easier with an AR than any pump or self loading shotgun I've used

BehindBlueI's
01-11-2017, 04:20 PM
How do self loading shotguns deal with neglect? An owner who's not going to lubricate it routinely as it sits in a dusty environment (ie under the bed)?

ASH556
01-11-2017, 05:03 PM
How do self loading shotguns deal with neglect? An owner who's not going to lubricate it routinely as it sits in a dusty environment (ie under the bed)?

Inertia guns are more forgiving than gas guns.

NerdAlert
01-12-2017, 04:36 AM
...For all of the above reasons, I would second (or third, or fourth) an entry-level AR as a MUCH better HD long arm. The AR is smaller, lighter, easier to maneuver, MUCH less prone to user-induced malfunctions, more accurate, MUCH softer recoiling, higher capacity, easier to reload, and plenty hard hitting. It's also much more pleasant to shoot, leading to a higher likelihood of a shooter actually training with their HD weapon (I know, shocking concept!)...

...Don't get me wrong, I think a shotgun, loaded with slugs, in well trained experienced hands is as close to the Finger of God as it's possible to get in defensive weapons, but I definitely don't recommend it for new shooters or non-dedicated users.

Regards,

Kevin

I'd like to try to bring some realism to the discussion for a second. I hear the idea that an AR is the "ideal" or best firearm thrown at a person asking a question about an inexpensive shotgun I have to wonder if there isn't a better way to handle the discussion. Long guns have a role in HD, that role most likely does not include maneuverability, ammunition capacity, or how pleasant it is to shoot in the equation when comparing it to a carbine.

For average Joe Gun Owner, clearing rooms in their home, alone, with an AR or shotgun is ridiculously stupid at best, downright dangerous at worst.

Long guns serve the purpose of barricaded defensive shooting in my HD plan. If my wife thinks she heard a noise, I'm not going to check the kids room with an AR and a 1000 lumen surefire WML. If all my layers of security have alerted me that someone is in my home, the plan is to retrieve the kids with handheld light and pistol, move kids to safe area, call 911, and wait for the cavalry. While barricaded a long gun would be trained on the possible entry point and used if someone attempts to gain access. I have to believe that a used 870p, 500/590, Benelli M4 or any AR would work equally well in this scenario.

If you want to buy an AR and take carbine classes and shoot 3 gun DO IT. It is awesome. It is fun. Quality ARs are way more expensive than quality shotguns and pistols. That's just a fact. They are not necessarily better for actual HD use than a shotgun or pistol. If money is a concern and AR is the absolute last thing I would recommend. If you want to defend your home, read all you can about home security. Get a security system, get a big nasty dog, harden your house, buy better locks, film your windows, get better interior doors and locks, get a gun that you can afford to become very proficient with, get a good quality handheld light and keep it by your bed, and lastly build all these things into a plan that makes sense to you and your family and practice it. If an 870 in a safe in your closet makes sense then by all means do it, don't buy an AR or a shotgun or a pistol because it's what the cool kids have. Guns are not magic. If you don't know someone is in your house it doesn't matter what kind of gun you have. You cannot plan for everything, but sticking a cheap shotgun it pistol under your bed should not make you feel safe. Guns are a part of any well thought out home security plan unless you plan to be a victim, but they don't warn you of anything. If money is limited, spend your money where it makes sense.

If you decide a shotgun makes sense buy the best one you can afford. I like the tang safety on the Mossberg 500/590/930 due to handedness. They are very reasonable and even a 930 Jm pro semi auto is cheaper than a Colt 6920 AR. Used 870s can be found very cheap. Benelli semi autos have a very good reputation for reliability but are very expensive. I hope this helps.

Unobtanium
01-12-2017, 05:15 AM
A co-worker wants to buy a home defense shotgun. $750.00 aprox is his limit. Pump or semi is OK. What are your recommendations and why please.
Thanks

Benelli m1 or Beretta 1301, either lightly used will achieve the price bracket.

Both are reliable and durable and will not allow the user to lock them up via short stroking the action. Pump guns take a shitton of practice to "be as reliable" as an auto because of this. For example, my Benelli have literally never jammed. Ever. Unless I was running 1145fps trap loads from the hip or goofing off, but with any field birdshot, etc fired from the shoulder, never a jam. That's 5 guns over almost 10 years. How many of you can say that you haven't short stroked a pump gun once during your first 10 years of shooting them?

Unobtanium
01-12-2017, 05:17 AM
Inertia guns are more forgiving than gas guns.

My grandpa had a crapped up 391. It still ran great. Hed had and shot it for years. Didnt even know how to take it apart. Honestly, a good shotgun like one of the Italians is going to be fine unless you literally let it rust until it's locked up. Hard to do with the chrome this and that though.

Unobtanium
01-12-2017, 05:19 AM
I'd also like to say, in a post all its own...because I feel that strongly about it...

Unless you are clearing through a structure to get to and protect a loved one...you're full of Dunning Kruger if you're doing it by yourself.

NerdAlert
01-12-2017, 05:35 AM
I'd also like to say, in a post all its own...because I feel that strongly about it...

Unless you are clearing through a structure to get to and protect a loved one...you're full of Dunning Kruger if you're doing it by yourself.

Sorry for the thread drift earlier but I have heard so much about ARs being the Best Gun (tm) for the civilian home defender I just had to say something. I mean maneuverability as an advantage? Really? I get capacity, less recoil, etc. I really do. But when someone asks for a sub $700 shotgun and the answer is "get an AR", we've really stepped in it.

Back on topic, the 1301 does seem awesome and would be another worthy of consideration for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bigghoss
01-12-2017, 06:43 AM
Last time this came up the Benelli Super Nova had high remarks for a solid pump gun, but I've got no personal experience myself.

I would choose a 590 over a 590A1. That thick barrel is heavy. Then again, that would help with felt recoil. Mossberg makes or made a 20" defensive 20ga with ghost rings but to my knowledge good 20 gauge defensive loads are hard to come by.

That all is, of course, if your friend is dead set on a $750-or-less shotgun and is willing to put in the time to get good with a pump. And even then is more likely to muck it up than an auto choking( if its a good auto)

UNK
01-12-2017, 07:10 AM
Thanks for all the inputs. I passed along the link to this thread, he has a friend who owns a gunstore and he has the weekend off. When I see him monday I expect he will probably have bought something. This all came about because we started discussing his home gun a J Frame loaded with unknown ammo. So I had the opportunity to share knowledge I have gleaned from here concerning J Frame ammo. That led to a conversation about home defense and was a JFrame only the best option. Then I started sharing info from this thread
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13486-Why-a-shotgun
and he decided a JFrame was insufficient for home defense.
So thanks Tom for this Forum and thanks all for the input.

Lost River
01-12-2017, 10:24 AM
First I will agree with what many posters here mentioned about pump shotguns, and semi auto rifles being easier to shoot and/or manipulate.

That said, when dealing with a $700 budget, there are a few guns that I would consider.

#1 thing I would personally do is look at used guns.

Teaching a person to run a pump gun is not too tough, though yes there are certainly opportunities to short stroke, and cause user induced malfunctions. That said, with just a little practice of being very deliberate with cycling the action tends to alleviate most of this.

Aside from the obvious 870s, don't forget that there are BUNCH of old Ithaca Model 37s out there. They are easy to shoot well, and if you pick one up with a long barrel, shortening one to 18.5" (or so)is a quick and easy job for anyone with even slight mechanical abilities. There area good number of old Ithaca Police/riot models still floating around for pretty good prices, though generally they are a good bit more expensive than the standard Model 37s.

I have a buddy who swears by his 37 riot gun, and uses it regularly for coyote and rabbit hunts as well. He calls it "Al" for Al Capone, and runs that thing so fast that sometimes I have a hard time believing he is running a manually operated shotgun. There are also the "Deer slayer" models with rifle sights mounted, if one wanted to add a bit of precision at longer ranges.

Plus there semi auto guns like the Browning Auto 5, which have been produced in the millions. That gun was designed in the late 1800s and was produced for about 100 years. It is still a brutally effective shotgun, and examples can be found pretty easily for quite reasonable prices. Plus they have some pretty cool history, being used in WW1, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, Not to mention other conflicts such as the war in Rhodesia.

Additionally the Browning A5 was produced by Remington as the Model 11, and they can often be found for dirt cheap. I know that Savage produced some copies but I really don't recall the model # or how many were produced.

With a budget of 7 bills, it should not be too tough to pick up a well used A5, add a white light, sling and a case of ammo for practice, and a few boxes of actual HD ammo.

Personally I find the AR to be an outstanding HD gun, but keep a shorter barreled A5 in a handy location for HD. If I recall, #4 buck has about 40 or so projectiles. With the setup I have that amounts to about 360ish projectiles readily at hand in my personal 9 round gun. A combo of buck and slugs on a mounted external carrier allows for additional options to be readily available too. With a little practice, and knowing some speed reloading/manipulation techniques, I don't feel the least bit handicapped in using an "outdated" old gun, like my Belgian Browning.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/P1010432%201_zpsyvzfo6dm.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/P1010432%201_zpsyvzfo6dm.jpg.html)

Used shotguns represent a pretty good value for HD, and the very vast majority have not seen enough use to really worry about getting a worn out one.

Cheers!

rjohnson4405
01-12-2017, 12:25 PM
I'd like to try to bring some realism to the discussion for a second. I hear the idea that an AR is the "ideal" or best firearm thrown at a person asking a question about an inexpensive shotgun I have to wonder if there isn't a better way to handle the discussion. Long guns have a role in HD, that role most likely does not include maneuverability, ammunition capacity, or how pleasant it is to shoot in the equation when comparing it to a carbine.

For average Joe Gun Owner, clearing rooms in their home, alone, with an AR or shotgun is ridiculously stupid at best, downright dangerous at worst.

...

ARs are being recommended as ease of use and effectiveness. Not because they're easier to clear rooms with. I don't recommend solo room clearing to anyone, much less someone without training and experience.

Their biggest issue is not going to be maneuverability, it's going to be the ability to hit their target when they have one and that's easier, in general, with an AR.

blues
01-12-2017, 12:59 PM
ARs are being recommended as ease of use and effectiveness. Not because they're easier to clear rooms with. I don't recommend solo room clearing to anyone, much less someone without training and experience.

Their biggest issue is not going to be maneuverability, it's going to be the ability to hit their target when they have one and that's easier, in general, with an AR.

Can't be stressed strongly enough (absent the compounding complexity of children or other dependents requiring assistance / protection).

Poconnor
01-12-2017, 02:46 PM
It's not a simple answer. Whenever a person asks me about a gun for home defense I explain about defense in depth. Dogs, deadbolts, exterior lights , gun storage. etc. Then I start with budget because with some people that's all that matters. Then look at their physical abilities. More than twenty years ago I taught a girl friend how to shoot. She hated revolvers because she said they recoiled too much even with 158 gr SWC. She liked shooting my Glock 19 but couldn't run the slide. She loved my P7 and was impressively accurate. My elderly aunt recently wanted a gun for protection. She is small and frail.
If they don't know much about guns I don't recommend a used gun because they can't tell the difference used and abused. My home defense shotgun is a $300 used 870 that already had scattergun sights. I added a side saddle and a surefire light and keep it in a V-line lock box. The V-line box was over $200 but is worth it.
I've seen too many police officers struggle to run an 870 and or an AR. It does not matter how easy we think it is.
If I had a friend that was using a J frame for home defense with a 700 dollar budget I would tell him to start with a Glock 19. By the time he gets a holster, a surefire x300 and a surefire handheld he's there. That's what I told my cousin who never had an interest in guns and he is 47 years old.
If he still wants a shotgun I would take him shooting and let him try both 10 rounds of buck shot and a mag from an AR.
Tactics are a whole another subject.

vcdgrips
01-12-2017, 04:44 PM
To answer the OP

405.00 Thunder Ranch Mossberg 500. Shotguns comes with sling and light rail standard
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/2084_37_336/products_id/77468/Mossberg+500TR+12g+18%22+6SH+THUNDER+RCH

10.00 per 5 rounds Federal Flite Control 00 Tactical Buck
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/712010497/FED+12GA+2.75+00+BUCK+510+LEAD+FREE

25.00 Tom Givens Shotgun DVD
http://rangemaster.com/publications/training-dvds/

11.00 5 Practice "Dummy Rounds" 12 gauge
https://www.amazon.com/ST-Action-Pro-Trainer-Rounds/dp/B004JJJ49G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484257089&sr=8-1&keywords=12+gauge+dummy+round&refinements=p_72%3A2661618011

55.00 320 Lumen Surefire light
https://www.amazon.com/SureFire-Tactical-Single-Output-Flashlight-tailcap/dp/B009F7J8RA/ref=pd_sim_200_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=JEHY53XR0WJ76C9X24F0

20.00 Viking Tactics Light Mount
https://www.amazon.com/Blade-Tech-Viking-Tactics-Light-Mount/dp/B00BD94GU2/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1484257320&sr=1-1&keywords=viking+tactics+light+mount

Buy some practice rounds and find a local class when avail and he is under 750.00 all in.

YMMV Greatly

NerdAlert
01-12-2017, 08:03 PM
It may not still be the case (and probably not terribly germane for a sub-$700 shotgun thread), but for the past couple of years both Beretta 1301s and Colt 6720s have been fairly readily available for right at $800 each (which is awesome).

Good point. I haven't seen the $800 quality ARs around much, and I wasn't aware that the 1301 was that inexpensive (as far as Italian automatic shotguns go). The intent of my post wasn't to disparage ARs for defensive purposes, but rather to point out that if money is an object there are things that will keep you safer (maybe "just as safe") for the same money as ANY gun. Also ARs are markedly better in many ways than other long gun options, there are pros and cons to any choice. Make the choice that makes the most sense in your context, which for a person mentioning a budget and a shotgun is probably not an AR.

There is much wisdom in a lot of the posts above about room clearing and considering other options, I just felt that leaving out the actual role of a long gun in HD was a disservice to the person asking the question. Sorry if I came off as rude.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tabasco
01-12-2017, 08:18 PM
To answer the OP

405.00 Thunder Ranch Mossberg 500. Shotguns comes with sling and light rail standard
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/2084_37_336/products_id/77468/Mossberg+500TR+12g+18%22+6SH+THUNDER+RCH

10.00 per 5 rounds Federal Flite Control 00 Tactical Buck
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/712010497/FED+12GA+2.75+00+BUCK+510+LEAD+FREE

25.00 Tom Givens Shotgun DVD
http://rangemaster.com/publications/training-dvds/

11.00 5 Practice "Dummy Rounds" 12 gauge
https://www.amazon.com/ST-Action-Pro-Trainer-Rounds/dp/B004JJJ49G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484257089&sr=8-1&keywords=12+gauge+dummy+round&refinements=p_72%3A2661618011

55.00 320 Lumen Surefire light
https://www.amazon.com/SureFire-Tactical-Single-Output-Flashlight-tailcap/dp/B009F7J8RA/ref=pd_sim_200_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=JEHY53XR0WJ76C9X24F0

20.00 Viking Tactics Light Mount
https://www.amazon.com/Blade-Tech-Viking-Tactics-Light-Mount/dp/B00BD94GU2/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1484257320&sr=1-1&keywords=viking+tactics+light+mount

Buy some practice rounds and find a local class when avail and he is under 750.00 all in.

YMMV Greatly

Lead Free Federal Flite Control buck?

Here's a better deal for the Flite Control Tactical rounds:

http://www.luckygunner.com/12-ga-2-3-4-00-buck-federal-law-enforcement-flitecontrol-wad-250-round

$10.00per 5 round box is kind of expensive...

Edit:

I guess this is the lead free Federal buck:

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/shotshell/caliber/12-gauge/vital-shok-buckshot-high-density-with-flitecontrol-wad/phd159-00#2

New offering maybe?

Unobtanium
01-13-2017, 02:40 AM
Lead Free Federal Flite Control buck?

Here's a better deal for the Flite Control Tactical rounds:

http://www.luckygunner.com/12-ga-2-3-4-00-buck-federal-law-enforcement-flitecontrol-wad-250-round

$10.00per 5 round box is kind of expensive...

Edit:

I guess this is the lead free Federal buck:

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/shotshell/caliber/12-gauge/vital-shok-buckshot-high-density-with-flitecontrol-wad/phd159-00#2

New offering maybe?
Do they offer the lead free stuff without that FliteControl stuff? I hate it.

Rich@CCC
01-13-2017, 10:11 AM
Glad to see someone else bring up used Hump Backs!


...Additionally the Browning A5 was produced by Remington as the Model 11, and they can often be found for dirt cheap. I know that Savage produced some copies but I really don't recall the model # or how many were produced. ...

Savage's offering is the Model 720. Mine cost $150.00 and with $20.00 in parts(new spring and rings) has been 100% through several K rounds. I shoot trap with it occasionally and it is my HD shotty standing in the corner of the bedroom loaded with 00 buck. Maint. is easy and they require no special tools for a complete break down. The consumable parts are mostly interchangeable between Browning, Remington and Savage models.

TCinVA
01-13-2017, 10:22 AM
My grandpa had a crapped up 391. It still ran great. Hed had and shot it for years. Didnt even know how to take it apart. Honestly, a good shotgun like one of the Italians is going to be fine unless you literally let it rust until it's locked up. Hard to do with the chrome this and that though.

Friend of mine who works for Beretta showed pictures of a severely neglected 391 with cammo finish he'd received at the shop due to a cracked stock. The gun had not been cleaned in heaven only knows how many thousands of shells. It was a disgusting mess. It had a cracked carrier.

...but it still shoots.

As far as inexpensive shotguns go, it's hard to beat Remington 870 Police model guns for 269 bucks:

http://www.southernohiogun.com/gallery/remington-870-12ga-magnum.html

Crews
01-13-2017, 10:48 AM
How do self loading shotguns deal with neglect? An owner who's not going to lubricate it routinely as it sits in a dusty environment (ie under the bed)?

I have a lot of experience goose hunting in the windy, dusty fields of south central Oklahoma. While it's not defensive/tactical in any way, the shotguns being discussed are pretty much the same. It has been my observation that there are only two guns that really run well in these really dirty conditions: Benelli and Beretta.

Benelli really takes the cake with the inertia system. They are the ones that have the highest chance of cycling shells no matter how dirty. You pay the price for it though... they're not as great at running lower power shells, and perceived recoil is higher.

Beretta shotguns also do really well. Most casual users will really never get one dirty enough to cause cycling issues on a frequent basis. I have also seen just as many issues caused by OVER lubricating, and lubricating in the wrong spots. For instance, nothing will stop up a Beretta faster than putting a bunch of CLP all over the gas operating system.


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UNK
01-13-2017, 12:52 PM
I don't get the love for the Benelli. Doesn't an inertia gun require the butt be against something to operate correctly? The beretta is a gas gun and you could shoot it one handed and it would cycle.

BehindBlueI's
01-13-2017, 01:15 PM
Interesting info. The only self loader I have is a Ted Williams 12g. Very soft shooting gun. No idea if it's gas or inertia.

ASH556
01-13-2017, 01:19 PM
I don't get the love for the Benelli. Doesn't an inertia gun require the butt be against something to operate correctly? The beretta is a gas gun and you could shoot it one handed and it would cycle.

...As long as the gas system remains unobstructed. It's a trade off of odds playing. Which do you see as a more likely scenario:

1. The need to fire a shotgun one-handed.
2. The need for the shotgun to work for an extended period of time with no maintenance to the gas system.

vaspence
01-13-2017, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=UNK;550236]I don't get the love for the Benelli. Doesn't an inertia gun require the butt be against something to operate correctly? The beretta is a gas gun and you could shoot it one handed and it would cycle.[/QUOTE

Simply stated, the Benelli semiauto has the three most important things for a shotgun. Boom. Boom. and Boom. :D

blues
01-13-2017, 01:45 PM
Simply stated, the Benelli semiauto has the three most important things for a shotgun. Boom. Boom. and Boom. :D

http://www.popsike.com/pix/20110704/230643069994.jpg

UNK
01-13-2017, 01:48 PM
...As long as the gas system remains unobstructed. It's a trade off of odds playing. Which do you see as a more likely scenario:

1. The need to fire a shotgun one-handed.
2. The need for the shotgun to work for an extended period of time with no maintenance to the gas system.

My point is not that I would fire one handed. Seems to me that the ability to shoot from any position, including non shouldered, would be an advantage. An AR is a gas operated system and I don't hear the same comments about them. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds through 1110's which is gas operated with no problems. What kind of maintenance to the gas system are you talking about?

UNK
01-13-2017, 02:01 PM
Interesting info. The only self loader I have is a Ted Williams 12g. Very soft shooting gun. No idea if it's gas or inertia.

I think that is a Winchester 1400 which is gas operated. If you look down the barrel and see a spot that won't clean out probably where the band from the barrel mounts onto the magazine tube thats a gas operated gun.

Hambo
01-13-2017, 02:11 PM
My point is not that I would fire one handed. Seems to me that the ability to shoot from any position, including non shouldered, would be an advantage.

To nitpick, you can fire any of them in any position. The question is whether the action will cycle. The next question is whether that will ever matter.

ASH556
01-13-2017, 02:13 PM
My point is not that I would fire one handed. Seems to me that the ability to shoot from any position, including non shouldered, would be an advantage. An AR is a gas operated system and I don't hear the same comments about them. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds through 1110's which is gas operated with no problems. What kind of maintenance to the gas system are you talking about?
Apples and oranges comparing a gas shotgun to an AR. Centralizing on the word "gas" to compare the two is like comparing a 1984 Ford Escort to a 2017 Corvette and calling them both "cars." Yes, you can soft-shoulder a Benelli. You can also limp wrist a Glock. Does that mean they are unreliable? No. You just need to understand how to operate them correctly. When evaluating a shotgun, there are more crucial factors to consider than whether or not it will run if fired one-handed (btw, it will if you hold it stiff enough). At the end of the day, a Benelli has a reputation for "just working" whether bird hunting, 3gunning, or gunfighting. If your mission is to prove why that's not a worthwhile reputation for Benelli, have fun on your quest.

ETA: on the 1100 thing, I'm happy yours has worked. I've seen first hand literally dozens that wouldn't run due to either a fouled gas port or failed o-ring.

UNK
01-13-2017, 02:18 PM
To nitpick, you can fire any of them in any position. The question is whether the action will cycle. The next question is whether that will ever matter.

You are correct Sir. My point was that the action will cycle from any position on a gas gun. I have heard but have had no personal experience that the inertia actions will not cycle unless there is something to recoil against. My other point is to ask, how likely is it for the gas system to get blocked.

In addition I understand but also have no personal comparison that the gas gun is a softer recoiling gun. I have fired 500 rounds in one day through an 1100 albeit trap loads and that was all I wanted.

UNK
01-13-2017, 02:21 PM
Apples and oranges comparing a gas shotgun to an AR. Centralizing on the word "gas" to compare the two is like comparing a 1984 Ford Escort to a 2017 Corvette and calling them both "cars." Yes, you can soft-shoulder a Benelli. You can also limp wrist a Glock. Does that mean they are unreliable? No. You just need to understand how to operate them correctly. When evaluating a shotgun, there are more crucial factors to consider than whether or not it will run if fired one-handed (btw, it will if you hold it stiff enough). At the end of the day, a Benelli has a reputation for "just working" whether bird hunting, 3gunning, or gunfighting. If your mission is to prove why that's not a worthwhile reputation for Benelli, have fun on your quest.

ETA: on the 1100 thing, I'm happy yours has worked. I've seen first hand literally dozens that wouldn't run due to either a fouled gas port or failed o-ring.

I am attempting to learn here. Why is the gas system not comparable between an AR and a shotgun. I had plenty of luck with my 1100. I did keep it cleaned and lubed. I have to admit most of those rounds were single shot then reload rounds.

ASH556
01-13-2017, 02:40 PM
Rifle pressure is higher than shotgun pressure, thus more self-cleaning of the gas system occurs. In my experience, riffle ammo tends to be cleaner than shotgun ammo as well. Thus, gas ports in a shotgun are much more susceptible to fouling than those in an AR. That is why saying, "an AR is gas-operated and reliable, therefore a gas-operated shotgun should be equally reliable" is not correct. Most anything will be reliable with proper maintenance. What we tend to focus on with weapons reliability is how well they function without proper cleaning and maintenance. Fundamentally, an inertia-driven shotgun is more tolerannt of lacking cleaning and maintenance than a gas-driven shotgun. That's pretty close that to what I initially posted in this thread as an answer to a question about reliability when dirty.

Helpful or clear as mud?

UNK
01-13-2017, 04:04 PM
Rifle pressure is higher than shotgun pressure, thus more self-cleaning of the gas system occurs. In my experience, riffle ammo tends to be cleaner than shotgun ammo as well. Thus, gas ports in a shotgun are much more susceptible to fouling than those in an AR. That is why saying, "an AR is gas-operated and reliable, therefore a gas-operated shotgun should be equally reliable" is not correct. Most anything will be reliable with proper maintenance. What we tend to focus on with weapons reliability is how well they function without proper cleaning and maintenance. Fundamentally, an inertia-driven shotgun is more tolerannt of lacking cleaning and maintenance than a gas-driven shotgun. That's pretty close that to what I initially posted in this thread as an answer to a question about reliability when dirty.

Helpful or clear as mud?

That's pretty well put. I never understood the lack of love for the 1100. The prices used are pretty cheap. I have an 1100 and an 870 set up as HD guns but they are both cleaned and lubed. I need to contact Remington and see if there is an optimal spring for full power loads.
So what is the definition of "soft shouldered" ? It seems to me if a RDS is recommended for shooting from compromised positions with an AR then the requirement for a shotgun to be able to be fired from compromised positions would be just as important.

Gadfly
01-13-2017, 04:15 PM
I have an old 1100 and a Browning 2000. Neither is set up as an HD gun. But, over the years of hunting, skeet, sporting clays and such... the 1100 has been more reliable by far.


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Unobtanium
01-13-2017, 06:51 PM
Rifle pressure is higher than shotgun pressure, thus more self-cleaning of the gas system occurs. In my experience, riffle ammo tends to be cleaner than shotgun ammo as well. Thus, gas ports in a shotgun are much more susceptible to fouling than those in an AR. That is why saying, "an AR is gas-operated and reliable, therefore a gas-operated shotgun should be equally reliable" is not correct. Most anything will be reliable with proper maintenance. What we tend to focus on with weapons reliability is how well they function without proper cleaning and maintenance. Fundamentally, an inertia-driven shotgun is more tolerannt of lacking cleaning and maintenance than a gas-driven shotgun. That's pretty close that to what I initially posted in this thread as an answer to a question about reliability when dirty.

Helpful or clear as mud?

I will say the system on my M4's (Benelli) actually DOES "self-clean" (far less carbon/fouling build-up than any DI AR, OR piston AR). They just run and run and run and run. I know that the price-point is not what belongs in this thread, but I'm just saying that not all gas systems are the same on shotguns.

peterb
01-13-2017, 07:30 PM
...As long as the gas system remains unobstructed. It's a trade off of odds playing. Which do you see as a more likely scenario:

1. The need to fire a shotgun one-handed.
2. The need for the shotgun to work for an extended period of time with no maintenance to the gas system.

For typical home defense use, both are unlikely.
The most likely scenario is that it goes to the range once or twice, gets cleaned, and is stored in a relatively clean indoor environment. If needed, it will be asked to fire one magazine or less.

TCinVA
01-13-2017, 08:08 PM
To give some idea of the kind of gunk the 391 XTrema I mentioned earlier was still working with:

13143
13144
13145

My Berettas are never going to look like that, so im not worried.

Rich@CCC
01-14-2017, 09:22 AM
To give some idea of the kind of gunk the 391 XTrema I mentioned earlier was still working with:

13143
13144
13145

My Berettas are never going to look like that, so im not worried.

Wow! That's nasty.

That looks worse than the Savage 720 did when I bought it(BTW, it shot and loaded just fine but the rings were worn and I could not slow it down for magnums or make it single shot for target loads) and it had probably never been cleaned in 30 years!

Unobtanium
01-14-2017, 10:10 AM
Wow! That's nasty.

That looks worse than the Savage 720 did when I bought it(BTW, it shot and loaded just fine but the rings were worn and I could not slow it down for magnums or make it single shot for target loads) and it had probably never been cleaned in 30 years!

Still no reason not to fire/cycle. Friend of mine ran around 10K rounds through his Benelli M4. Just added CLP when/if he felt it was getting sluggish with birdshot. It never stopped, he just decided to clean it at around that time.

TCinVA
01-14-2017, 08:48 PM
Looks like they go as low as $229. I have a serious case of the wants. :)

Do it.

Do it now.

Do it before I buy one.

Dear god, man, save me from myself.


Still no reason not to fire/cycle. Friend of mine ran around 10K rounds through his Benelli M4. Just added CLP when/if he felt it was getting sluggish with birdshot. It never stopped, he just decided to clean it at around that time.

The M4 is a tank. To paraphrase Tom Givens, it's the only true military grade shotgun ever made. It's a damn good gun...but I snagged 2 1301's for less than the cost of one M4.

rob_s
01-14-2017, 09:13 PM
Did we say "Glock 19“ yet?

If not, Glock 19.

Hambo
01-15-2017, 09:32 AM
Do it.

Do it now.

Do it before I buy one.

Dear god, man, save me from myself.

I'm an enabler. At that price, you should buy two.

Crews
01-15-2017, 07:03 PM
To give some idea of the kind of gunk the 391 XTrema I mentioned earlier was still working with:

13143
13144
13145

My Berettas are never going to look like that, so im not worried.

The xtrema is a little bit easier to maintain because the spring that closes the bolt back is around the magazine tube, and not back in the stock like a regular 391. In my experience, this often-overlooked spring is a common source of problems in guns that are used often.


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