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Serpico1985
12-04-2011, 04:20 PM
There is a thread on M4C here:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1159116

by ssdsurf discussing advanced trigger technique/skills. He goes into a lot of detail in his video (linked in the thread) on how he presses the trigger and discusses things I've never considered before. I was hoping we could get a parrell discusion going on here on the same subject. For instance he talks about breaking the shot in the middle of the arc of your trigger finger movement so that when the shot breaks the presure on the trigger is straight back. He also discusses shooters being mis-diagnosed by trainers who simply say they're putting too much or to little finger on the trigger and not looking at how the trigger is being pulled or what's going on with the grip.

I know a lot of these topis have been discussed before (reference section and other threads) but hoped they could be rehashed/expanded upon here and maybe squeez some more info out of the folks in the "know".

HeadHunter
12-06-2011, 05:13 PM
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." -- Shunryu Suzuki

JHC
12-06-2011, 05:26 PM
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." -- Shunryu Suzuki

Also from S.S. in "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" - "If you have a cow or a horse and truly want to control it; set it loose in an open field." I love that shit.

I'm still trying to understand that arc thing. I am pleased to comprehend I think his explanation of the first knuckle point at the target on pulling a Glock trigger. I struggled for a long time long ago trying to use just the pad on the Glock and didn't get a handle on it until I "choked up" a little and damn, turns out where I ended up is that Surf first knuckle thing. I need to re-listen/read up on this arc thing.

jetfire
12-06-2011, 06:14 PM
Not to bag on someone I don't know, but that video seemed like taking a fairly simple concept (pulling the trigger) and making it WAY more complicated than it needs to be.

theblacknight
12-06-2011, 06:51 PM
Agree. I still watched it again tho. Surf has some great vids.

JodyH
12-06-2011, 06:51 PM
Press the trigger without disturbing the sights.
That's about as advanced as it gets in trigger manipulation.
When I stopped worrying about my finger and concentrated on what my sights were telling me, my trigger control improved tremendously.
Amazing how that works.

HeadHunter
12-06-2011, 06:58 PM
That video was 28 minutes out of my life that I will never get back.

Shellback
12-06-2011, 07:12 PM
Removed comment. Not germane to topic.

JHC
12-06-2011, 07:27 PM
Interesting, there's very different and completely opposite reactions to the presented material on both forums.

Surf has some good shooting vids up and about these trigger vids, not all of this is so obvious to everyone. I had already got the trigger finger part. If there's a secret about the "arc" I am not privy to it yet. But I am starting to think my long fingers must be the perfect match to G17s. ;)

JHC
12-06-2011, 07:34 PM
Even after 40+ years of pretty close study of pistol shooting, I'm open to new ideas about trigger work. Kyle Lamb's book on pistol shooting suggested a couple ideas I had not come across. One being that for precision, he recommends more finger. For max speed, less finger. Can't say I ever heard of that put just like that before. Doesn't mean I'm gonna change what I've spent a lot of money to get decent at but food for thought.

jlw
12-06-2011, 07:41 PM
LOL well this is the least synchopantic forum I know of although LF is probably equally so. OTOH, some of the M4C fans are anything but synchopantic. Whatever, Surf has some good shooting vids up and about these trigger vids, not all of this is so obvious to everyone. I had already got the trigger finger part. If there's a secret about the "arc" I am not privy to it yet. But I am starting to think my long fingers must be the perfect match to G17s. ;)


What is LF?

Joseph B.
12-06-2011, 07:43 PM
LF=Light Fighter

Man you guys are rough around here.:cool:

ToddG
12-06-2011, 10:22 PM
"Surf" is an incredibly talented and experienced shooter as well as a full time LEO (and LEO instructor, I believe).

Someone needs to split the atoms. Whether you agree with all of it or not, it's people like Surf who put in the effort to understand the minutiae that in turn lead to the simpler more accessible explanations and methods that broader audiences can understand, learn, and adopt.

I once sat through an hours-long powerpoint presentation on marksmanship fundamentals. As a powerpoint lecture it was painful. As a reference source, it was world class. Because literally no one I'd ever met had thought that much about those things.

And let's please make sure this thread (and any other thread here at PF) avoids getting into discussions about the tone or people on other forums.

Super J
01-15-2012, 09:07 AM
I am subscribed to surf's YouTube channel and enjoy them.

JM Campbell
01-15-2012, 10:41 AM
I recently watched Surfs trigger video, insightful to say the least. I just might have found what I've self taught is completely wrong and makes my trigger manipulation extremely inconsistent.

Great resource IMO.

Samsung Galaxy S II Skyrocket

Surf
01-15-2012, 08:50 PM
Disclaimer - Long post ahead. Cliff notes immediately following...

Cliff notes
- Yes video is long or in depth and seems to cover small or trivial details. A detailed explanation was requested by numerous people on this topic.
- Yes I am LE and I am 1 of 2 primary instructors for a full time tactical unit of 50 guys for a large major metro PD.
- My background is in the sciences and just the type of person I am dictates that I tend to dissect anything of interest to me.
- I truly appreciate the overwhelming support and feedback from the viewers / subscribers as the channel was meant to "dissect" or take a closer look at things that are often taken for granted. Taking things for granted, lack of understanding, or underestimating importance of certain "minutiae" can often add to mediocrity in skills or a lesser understanding of a topic. This can especially be applied to instructors and their ability to teach.
- Don't watch 28 mins of video if you don't find any interest in the first minute. It will save you 27 mins of your life.
- Be careful if you request Surf to be detailed oriented in giving an explanation or response involving shooting or related skills. Right or wrong the answer will not be short. :p


Hey guys, thanks for the input no matter your take on my video(s). :)

I completely agree that the video dives pretty deep into the topic but it was purpose created to be that way out of requests for an involved explain on my opinion or thoughts on trigger control and how I might manipulate a trigger. The topic originally started with other shorter vids discussing trigger control and also in regards to the Glock pistol and its trigger in particular and why people often claim to show consistent inconsistencies in shooting with the Glock pistol and how they will often blame the pistol itself. I have also been asked about how and why I use more than one trigger pull type on a pistol and this will vary from weapon, trigger type and shooting situation.

Just some clarification I am a full time LEO for a large major metro PD (10th largest or so). I have 23 years OTJ and I have been assigned for 12 years to a full time, dedicated 24/7/365 tactical unit of 50 guys, one of the largest full time units in the nation. Our unit has FEMA type 1 capabilities which is a true rarity these days with a trend to going to part time teams nationwide. I am one of 2 primary trainers for the unit and we have a training staff of 7 total. While I teach anything from A-Z related to the teams, the firearms program from training, development, T&E, purchase and maintenance falls directly under me. We also provide training for not only local but State and Federal LE also. We also include training for certain military units / personnel as we have numerous memorandums of agreements to be the primary response on many military and almost all Federal properties within our jurisdiction. I have done some OCONUS training for other than US .gov programs but haven't done so in awhile due to full time commitments in 2011. I am entertaining some offers for 2012+ for some private work which would mean doing my own company to fulfill subcontracting work based around military contracts within CONUS right now, but the contracts might be more than I could fulfill while still holding my full time job especially if they extend to bases OCONUS.

My interests and educational background pre LE was in the sciences so as Todd mentions I am one of those types that dissect things completely if I am interested in it. Doesn't matter if it comes to cars, trucks, bikes, building my own home or Firearms and tactics. I want to know every facet and be highly proficient at whatever I take on. As far as my teaching style goes, the people that I teach usually don't give a rats ass about the this kind of detail and I understand that I am not teaching rocket science to those working towards a thesis, so I definitely don't go that route with my teaching style, unless if I am actually teaching a rocket scientist type how to shoot. I will say that someone, especially an instructor, who knows more details about a topic are often more effective at spotting and diagnosing a problem and are generally better at coming up with a solution to the problem. Knowing how to get that info across to a student varies greatly just on how that student absorbs instruction or how they "learn" things. I am the "fix it" guy and if someone has a problem and other instructors cannot get good results, I am always the one asked to fix the problem. I like to think that the more I know and the more I understand, the more options I have at my disposal to teach a wider array of students, from more normal methods, to going full geek for those who need a science lesson or are in need of having a picture drawn for them because that is how they process information and understand things.

I have had the very good fortune to train with / under many great people, organizations, agencies in the business from LE, to Military, to Civilian and am lucky enough to have attained numerous instructor level certifications. I am definitely a very progressive type of instructor and I am always seeking out people to train with, train under etc, as I am always attempting to hone my own craft. I am however a huge skeptic in that I try to make things fail for my applications. If they don't, they may have merit and I will continue to explore the efficacy and possible implementation into my own skills and perhaps TTP's for training and teaching. I am not disappointed when I come across things that I feel suck. At least I have learned that it sucks and I understand that you must go through tons of dirt to find but a small nugget of gold. Even though I would like to think I am good at what I do I tend to think that I am never good enough and that drives me to always want to learn more and be better at what I do. Even though at times I may seem to obsess over small or perhaps trivial details with my own skills in order to be a better practitioner, I am more proud of what I feel is my ability to pass on my own knowledge in creating great shooters / tacticians no matter how they process information. My obsessing over minutiae makes their learning process much easier and efficient as I have already done the tedious work and taken it out of the equation or found a way to make it seem simple or easy to understand. Nothing, and I mean nothing is more satisfying than having a student, LE or Military, thank me for training that they felt helped them in an actual critical incident either here or overseas.

Again, thanks for the feedback guys and the great support from those who follow the channel. I will not run a "gun and gear" review channel and never show any proficiency in shooting a weapon. I will not shoot up pumpkins, watermelons, zombie targets, do giveaways etc, etc, etc, just to get drive views and subscribers as I do not profit in any way from the channel and could care less about those things. I do appreciate the kind comments from those who truly find help and often breakthroughs in their own skills or bad habits. Really helping others, contributing and hopefully adding value to the shooting world is the goal. It may not be much, but it is just but one way in which I try to contribute my own time and monies. Not sure where the channel is headed especially if I take on work involving the private sector. Oh btw, don't wait a full 28 mins if you don't like a video. You will generally know in the first minute or so if you are wasting your time or not. ;)

Nephrology
01-15-2012, 10:19 PM
I have absolutely profited from your videos Surf. Another thanks for taking the time to make them. I am also in the sciences and understand what you mean when you describe your attention to detail.

ken grant
01-22-2012, 10:11 AM
GREAT VIDS,SURF!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have sent others from different forums to them to watch.
Have heard nothing but good remarks in return.

Surf
01-24-2012, 12:42 AM
Thanks guys for the kind words and support of the channel, I really do appreciate it! It takes time, effort and my own money to do the video thing and I get nothing out of this other than attempting to contribute to the shooting world so the nice comments are very much appreciated. In fact I have taken some criticism that I share too much free information.

DocGKR
01-24-2012, 01:42 AM
Surf,

Thank you very much for your informative posts and video's--they are a great resource.

Surf
01-29-2012, 12:13 AM
Thanks Doc, I appreciate that! There are times that I consider stopping the channel because of the time and effort to do it. I still do, so it is nice to hear positive responses.

Jimichanga
01-29-2012, 03:02 AM
Thanks Doc, I appreciate that! There are times that I consider stopping the channel because of the time and effort to do it. I still do, so it is nice to hear positive responses.

Surf,

I appreciate your channel and I'm a long time watcher... I used it to install a DD rail and remove a FSB from my AR when you put that up years ago. I enjoy what you post and watch most of what you offer. Keep on keeping on... and be safe!