The 6.5 Grendel, is it right for you?

[SLG]

How's that for a magazine article title? :-)

I came to the Grendel the long way. I wanted a round I could hunt big game with in an AR. I tried 6.8 SPC. I tried 308. I dabbled with 300blk. None would do what I wanted. A friend had told me to get a Grendel, before I ever went the 6.8 route, but I thought that was a nutty choice, so I stuck with my plan. Well, he was right all along.

What was I looking to accomplish? I have worn out a 14.5" 5.56 AR just about every year for the past 13 years or so, sometimes more than one. I get about 20,000 rounds out of an upper, and then it is too far out of spec to do what it should do. Shorter guns last less, sometimes quite a bit less. I've seen between 5,000 and 10,000 from the shorter guns. That equates to right around a quarter of a million rounds through the AR. That doesn't seem like very much to me, when you look at my pistol logs, but it is what it is.

Over the last 13 years, I have come to really appreciate the design of the AR. Considering it's uncertain beginnings, it really has proven to be the Rifleman's Rifle. I say that because not only is it the military arm against which all others are judged, but it has taken over in most forms of rifle competition as well. In some cases it is an actual semi auto AR that is used (think things like service rifle, or 3 gun), but in other cases it is simply that the AR's fantastic ergonomics have been stolen for use in bolt guns or even single shots. Look at all the chassis systems out there in use in various practical rifle competitions, like PRS. Also in across the course guns, like the Tubb's 2000, and the host of tube guns used in that arena. I could keep going but I think you get the idea. The AR ergos are here to stay, and we are well off because of them.

My main use of the AR is as a weapon, but if I can take advantage of the ergos, weight and size, while launching a big game killing round, then it seems that I can have my cake and eat it too. So, now that the gun has been chosen, what about caliber?

I, and may others out there, have happily hunted anything they could hunt in North America with a 308. If you pick an appropriate bullet, and place it where you should, the game will die very quickly. There are many fine choices in caliber today, but the effectiveness of the 308 is not really up for debate. Unfortunately, the AR has to grow a fair bit before it will accept a 308. I have some of those and have had others over the years that are gone now. They are great guns, and I have carried one or another on several continents, but for pleasurable field use, I think they are a tad to big. So, how can I get 308 ballistics in an AR-15 size package? The 6.8spc comes close, and for pure hunting out to 300 yards, it can be a good choice. In my case though, I wanted more accuracy than the 6.8 seems to want to give. My ideal AR hunting gun was conceived on the plains of Montana, and though the initial shot never need be far, a wounded animal can run far and fast, so a follow up shot might need to be taken at longer than normal ranges. In addition, coyotes are fair game at most ranges, so a gun that can reach out there is a good thing.

As a rifleman, I want a gun that can hit anything I can hit, under any circumstances. The little Grendel does that, and it does it very well. Add a good sling that allows for a solid loop up, and you have a package that is about as capable as any rifle ever fielded.

The 6.5 Grendel offers about 80% of the terminal ballistics of the 308, while offering better wind bucking and a flatter trajectory, especially at long range. The differences in external ballistics are not enough to jump up and down about, but neither are the differences in terminal ballistics. Yes, the grendel is going a bit slower than more traditional 6.5 cartridges, but the long 6.5 bullets are built well and fly well. Even at slower velocities, they pack good killing penetration.

Hornady makes inexpensive, match grade factory ammo. In my gun the 123 SST will hold .5 moa for 5 shots, and it drops deer on the spot as well. Coyotes and foxes have no chance, and the precision of the round makes the small vitals of a fox almost easy. If you need bigger game penetration, the 120 TTSX will do the job, though it does not have quite the longer range capability of the SST.

My gun is a custom one, assembled by a family friend who no longer builds Grendels for the public. It uses a Lilja barrel, and is as capable of 1000 yard shots as any 308 I have. If I needed one today, I would start and stop my search at Precision Firearms. They have all sorts of sizes, weights, accuracy levels and price.

One really important thing to keep in mind about the Grendel. I consider it to be an enthusiasts cartridge. Not suitable for mass issue. Not suitable as a general purpose weapon. I have no idea if it would pass a military trial, but I suspect it would not. The bolt face has to be opened up a fair bit to accommodate the bigger brass, and early Grendels had some durability issues becasue of that. Current ones seem to be good, but I don't really care if they are or not. It is a sporting arm for me, and in that arena, it excels.

I'm sure I forgot to address some issues, so feel free to ask or add.

[shane45]

I went through much of the same thought process as you did. However I went down this road quite a while ago. This was before AA opened the door to everyone producing Grendel based systems etc etc. As such it was still a boutique cartridge back then so I went 260 Remington instead. But IMO the 6.5g has finally hit a solid stride so I will finally build one up. On the bolt, there are now 6.5g specific bolts that seem to alleviate concerns.

[Soggy]

SLG, thank you for taking the time to write this up. Any advice on buffers/springs etc for use with the Precision uppers? I have a regular colt M16 stock kit on my 'cmp' rifle: (http://www.specializedarmament.com/%E2%80%94-buttstock-fixed-%C2%B7-rifle/buttstock-kit-m16a2-forged/). Would that work? I didn't see any guidance on the Precision site, other than 'works with any lower'.

Also, any magazine guidance?

Thanks again!

[PNWTO]

SLG, thank you for taking the time to put some thoughts down.

At the risk of heresy, the AR-15 as a family/platform/brand doesn't really excite me, for numerous reasons. I liked my issued M16A4 and M4, but don't miss them. I have been hovering around finally throwing something on my lower that has some practical (for me) value in the PNW and haved bounced between the 6.8 and 6.5. This post has convinced to seriously look at getting a Grendel set up. Thank you again.


Also, any magazine guidance?

This. Would also enjoy hearing your thoughts on a Grendel rig for a GP/Scout-ish for an enthusiast who is willing to do so.

And in net forum tradition, I think we need some pics.

[SLG]

Mags. I use Alexander Arms and ASC. Both work well for 15 rounds or less, but only the AA mags work for me above 15 rounds.

Lowers. My Grendel has been on a 6920 lower and a S&W lower. Both worked just fine with the factory buffer and spring set up. If building one, I would start at H2, and go from there.

I should mention that this rifle was built 3 years ago, and I have been using it non stop ever since. I thought i had a pic handy, but I don't. Here is a lnk to the sling I designed to basically compliment this concept. The rifle pictured is my 6.5 G.
http://www.skdtac.com/PIG-SMS-Sling-p/pig.674.htm

[SLG]

Now I found one.12964

[punkey71]

Thanks for this SLG.

LL mentioned you were going to share your thoughts on 6.5G when I asked him his opinion on it as an alternative to a 308 for medium/large game.

Any thoughts on minimum barrel lengths to generate to velocities for hunting? I'm sure distance plays a role but do you have a sweet spot for handling VS velocity?

Thanks again!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SLG]

I use a 16" barrel. I prefer it for handling, and it still pushes out to about 1200 on steel without much drama. Longer is likely better, to an extent, but I would not personally go beyond 20 for a field gun. Just like with other caliber and barrel length discussions we've had on the forum, the differences are pretty minor, and anything between 16 and 22 will get the job done, depending on your preference.

BTW, you polite guys are welcome.:-)

I need to step out of the barn for a bit...

[Shoresy]

Thanks for the info. I have a complete lower sitting around and have been hemming and hawing over an upper. I'm pretty well sold on the Grendel (for a lot of the reasons you laid out above), just need to find a suitable upper.

[Cecil Burch]

Thanks for taking the time to put this all down SLG! Very useful.

[littlejerry]

SLG, thanks for posting. Good info all around.

I'm at a similar spot with being comfortable with the AR and generally preferring it to other long guns in my inventory. I've toyed with the idea of getting a bolt gun(in 6.5C) but I've come to really like carrying and using my 16" AR.

What do you feel is the max acceptable range for your 6.5G on medium sized game?

[JHC]

SLG,
Have you seen this .264 American yet?

[SLG]

SLG,
Have you seen this .264 American yet?

I have seen it, but that's all.
You?

[SLG]

What do you feel is the max acceptable range for your 6.5G on medium sized game?


You're welcome! Cecil, otoh, is not, as he is one of the reasons I posted this;-)

I limit myself on all big game to 300 yards on an uninjured animal. I would take a 300 yard shot with the G, as long as my ammo was appropriate to the game. Probably the 120 TTSX for me, for that.

[JHC]

I have seen it, but that's all.
You?

No. I didn't know it existed until Doc mentioned it here a few months ago. At the time I wrongly assumed it would fit in 556 pattern guns. Not much new I can find on it.

The 6.5 AR idea is pretty neat. I've killed most of my deer with a 556 AR but a bigger round would be more versatile, esp range-wise.

[okie john]

Thanks for this post. It comes just as I'm looking long and hard at my sporting rifles, and the 6.5G might be a good choice for some of what I want to do. I put a boatload of rounds through various M-16 variants on active duty so I know the platform, plus I have a spare 6920 that could use some love.

What kind of velocities are you getting from a 16" barrel? And how long is the handguard on this rifle?


Okie John

[SLG]

No. I didn't know it existed until Doc mentioned it here a few months ago. At the time I wrongly assumed it would fit in 556 pattern guns. Not much new I can find on it.

The 6.5 AR idea is pretty neat. I've killed most of my deer with a 556 AR but a bigger round would be more versatile, esp range-wise.

How big are the deer you're shooting with 5.56? What range? Which bullet?

I keep meaning to do that, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

[JHC]

How big are the deer you're shooting with 5.56? What range? Which bullet?

I keep meaning to do that, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

GA deer mostly top out at 140-150 I'd guess. Most I've shot probably 120-130. My mounted 8 PT might have beat the upper range. He was thick. One 55 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw double lunged at 20 FEET from my hide in the roots of a fallen tree.

Others, one shot to down each with 68 grain OTM, 77 grain OTM, 64 grain Win PP (worst penetration and jacket shedding but neck shot worked, 60 grain Nosler partition, and 55 grain all copper Barnes TMX I think it's called.

Overall I thought the Nosler most impressive from a wound channel and penetration perspective. The OTMs to neck, chest and shoulder were hammers with crazy destruction and complete fragmentation.

Note, one shot about 80 yards, the rest well under that.

None of them traveled more than 30 yards, some were bang flop. But for those that moved the blood trail was very thin. Just nostril blowing I think.

I like how the 30-30 does it better.

[littlejerry]

No. I didn't know it existed until Doc mentioned it here a few months ago. At the time I wrongly assumed it would fit in 556 pattern guns. Not much new I can find on it.

The 6.5 AR idea is pretty neat. I've killed most of my deer with a 556 AR but a bigger round would be more versatile, esp range-wise.

I had a bad experience with 223 this season. Years past I used 62gr Fusion/Gold Dots with good success out to 125-ish yards on heart and lung shots. This year I switched to the 75 Gold Dot because it groups much better for me and has a much higher BC. Took a 200 yard shot a few weeks ago and wasn't able to recover the deer. Small blood trail for 75 yards, then nothing.

Shot felt good, broadside. Confirmed zero afterwards, shot a 2 inch 3 round group at 200 yards. Having not recovered the deer I don't know for certain placement was ideal, but the shot felt right. Not sure where to go from here. I'd hate to pass up 200 yard shots as the property I frequent has quite a few opportunities in the 200-300 range.

[SLG]

LJ,

I'm the last person to consolidate guns, but I do like having a 5.56, 6.5G and a .22LR, all for the same lower. Makes for a nice versatile "platform."

[PNWTO]

SLG,

Observations with a suppressor?

[Will Fennell]

I've got both 6.8's and 6.5G's. In my experience, it has been easier to get 6.8's to run reliably, and while they are basically equally impressive out to, or just beyond, about 300 yards.....the 6.5G certainly leaves the 6.8 in the dust past that because of high BC bullets. If I could only have one, it would be my 19"Lilja barreled 6.5G. YMMV.

[Lomshek]

LJ,

I'm the last person to consolidate guns, but I do like having a 5.56, 6.5G and a .22LR, all for the same lower. Makes for a nice versatile "platform."

I've been thinking that's a handy way to go as when I'd use a .22 I'm probably not worrying about dual wielding a 6.5G or 5.56 but it's nice to be able to grab the upper I want for the job at hand and pop it on the lower.

[SteveB]

Over the years, I've had many .308 semi-autos: various forms of the M1A, HK91, FAL, FNAR, AR10, SR25, Larue, Remington, Winchester, some oddballs. Virtually all of them turned out to be too big and heavy for what I wanted to do, and I spent time and money trying to make them smaller and lighter. The SCAR was probably the best of the bunch, but it still had some negatives, in my view. I was an early advocate of the 6.5G, loved the concept of greatly improved ballistic performance in an AR-15, but had too many hardware issues (broken bolts, reliability issues) to take it seriously. Like SLG, I found the 6.8 underwhelming. Couple years ago, he convinced me to take another look at the 6.5G, and I had Performance Firearms rebarrel an upper. The result exceeded my expectations which were pretty high. Hundreds of rounds of different bullet types and weights, no function issues. I've only shot it out to 400 yards, but it is easily sub-MOA with factory ammo. I've always had a thing for 6.5 bullets; high BC and SD means they fly well and kill out of all proportion to diameter and weight. Now I can admit that there is such a thing as a reliable, accurate, ballistically improved AR-15. Here's mine with it's SLG sling:

12996

As far as cans go, I'm not the biggest fan on field guns. Unless I'm shooting subsonic, which, for me, means 9mm or .300 BKT, in a short rifle, I find the sound reduction unimpressive. I also don't like hanging a pound of metal on the muzzle end of my light, handy AR. I understand, though, that some guys are willing to make the compromise because of hearing issues. I put an AAC brake on my 6.5G so that I could use my 762-SDN-6 can, but it not only results in an ungainly rifle, I get a fair amount of blowback; YMMV:

12997

[GJM]

Love my 6.5G CZ, and should get an AR upper in that caliber. Seems like the ultimate "I want to hunt small to medium size game with an AR" cartridge.

Aside from wanting to hunt with an AR, are we to the point where an informed person would choose an AR, in any caliber, over a high quality bolt gun, for trophy hunting, say for bull elk out west, or sheep hunting in the big mountains? Should make for an interesting discussion.

[okie john]

I see no reason to reject the AR for big-game hunting IF it fires a cartridge appropriate to the game in question.


Okie John

[SLG]

SLG,

Observations with a suppressor?

I don't have many centerfire cans, and most of my experience is with work equipment. That said, I intended to suppress the G when it was built, which is why the otherwise totally useless TBAC brake attach brake is on the gun. My gun just isn't setup to run with that can afaict. There is too much backpressure, and I would likely have to go to heavier buffers and an adj. gas block. I decided not to mess with it, for the reasons SteveB outlined. I like hunting suppressed, but the extra weight and length where I am now is not appealing. If I was back out west, I would likely get a short light can dedicated for it and give it another try.

Also, there is the issue of blowback, which is more serious than I had previously thought. The new flow through cans are very appealing in that regard, and I would need to do more research. As of now, I will only suppress bolt guns for my own use.

[SteveB]

Love my 6.5G CZ, and should get an AR upper in that caliber. Seems like the ultimate "I want to hunt small to medium size game with an AR" cartridge.

Aside from wanting to hunt with an AR, are we to the point where an informed person would choose an AR, in any caliber, over a high quality bolt gun, for trophy hunting, say for bull elk out west, or sheep hunting in the big mountains? Should make for an interesting discussion.

Well, there's the rub. In my view, the answer to this question is no. I think the 6.5G AR is a great eastern whitetail rifle, but the scenarios you describe require a lot more than the 6.5G can give. As you know, I had a 6.5G CZ 527, but came to realize that the whole raison d'être for this cartridge is to beef up the AR15. If you can have an ultralight bolt rifle in .260 or 6.5CM, for example, what advantage does a 6.5G bolt rifle give you? I see the cartridge as a long-range paper puncher and as a 200 to maybe 300 yard deer rifle. The brilliant thing about it is that you get that performance out of an AR15, which is as light and handy a semi-auto as you can get. Having said that, an AR-15 with a top-quality hunting scope is going to be heavier with more sharp angles and edges than a bolt-action mountain rifle, and the bolt gun will launch legitimate big-game bullets. While they sell 300 WM AR's, I wouldn't want to carry one. At the end of the day, seems like the principal virtue of the semi-auto is to be able to shoot lots of bullets rapidly, not a necessity for hunting.

[SLG]

The 6.5G does nothing that another gun or cartridge can't do "better". The reason the 6.5G is so good, is the acceptable big game ballistics, combined with the ergos of the AR. The semi auto feature means nothing to me personally.

The ergos are what allow me to optimize my field shooting under any and all conditions. If hunting to you means laying prone and shooting off a backpack or a bipod, then ergos matter relatively less. If the ability to shoot from improvised positions, as well as standing, kneeling, squatting and sitting matter, then the AR is king. Obviously the others will also work, so it just depends what priority you place on things.

As for the G's ballistics on "trophy" hunts. I've never been on a "trophy" hunt. Conversely, all the hunting I've done is for a trophy that mattered to me. Most people are not burdened by having to choose a set up for a true trophy hunt. The G is a generalists rifle. It would not be good for 3 gun. It would not be good for PRS. It would not be good for F class. Nor for issued use by tactical organizations.

It is the modern day scout rifle, to my mind.

If bigger game is on the menu, choose a more appropriate weapon. If specific competition is the order of the day, choose a more competitive set up. If fighting is what needs to be done, pick a time tested setup.

If you don't know what you'll be doing, or want to do most things pretty well, while sticking with AR ergos, than the G has a lot to offer. Is it better than the guy who has a 300blk or 5.56 AR for defensive use and a Tikka for hunting? No. It's just another choice, and I personally like have a match grade AR-15 that can not only reach out there for fun, but can also drop North American big game. I can use it for just about anything I need a rifle to do, even if it is not ideal for some of those things. And boy does it shoot. And allow me to shoot to my potential. Which, at the end of the day, is what I really want a gun to do.

[ranger]

Over the last few years, I built multiple 6.8SPC and 6.5Grendel AR uppers. I have had no issues in reliability with any of them. Currently, I have one 14.5 inch 6.8SPC upper with the AAC 51T flash hider suppressor mount so I can use a 30 suppressor - it has a Leopold 1.5x5 scope on an Aero mount. I enjoy shooting it and think it has great merit for hog or deer hunting out to 200 yards - maybe 300 yards. It would excel in a HD mode also. I also have a 20 inch 6.5G upper built up for PRS like shooting with a 4-14 scope - it is amazingly accurate and fun to shoot. I am moderately active on the main 6.8 and 6.5 forums - it is a hoot "watching" the 6.8 and 6.5G communities "hate" on each other - in particular, the 6.8 community is very protective. Interestingly, one of the main proponents for 6.8 and "haters" of 6.5G from the 6.8SPC community is now selling 6.5G barrels (they may call them some derivative of 264 but they are 6.5G) and other 6.5 wildcats.

Two years ago, I took my 6.5G AR (in a much lighter form) to Wyoming and successfully harvested a nice antelope with the Hornady 123 SST factory load. But, I learned a personal lesson - I do not think the AR platform is the optimal hunting rifle out west. Can an AR be used - absolutely. Is it the best rifle for hunting out west - not for me. Unless you spend a lot of money on exotic parts, a full size AR is not heavy but it is not light either. I came to the conclusion that I wanted a much lighter bolt action rifle in a 6.5 (260) caliber. I bought a Weatherby Vanguard S2 6.5CM but still wanted something lighter - one of the forum members sold his Kimber Montana 260 Remington and I bought it then sold the Weatherby. I took the 260 Kimber hunting this year in Wyoming and it was a JOY to carry and I was confident that the Kimber 260 would do it part if I had seen a mule deer worth shooting.

If I was buying one non-223/5.56 AR - it would be a 6.5 Grendel. The beauty of the 6.5G is it fits in the AR platform. But, for a pure hunting rifle, I would go with a 260 Remington (or 6.5 Creedmoor) bolt action. I am a heretic on the 6.5G forum as they are all waxing poetic over the Howa 6.5G bolt action rifles - you can get a 6.5 CM, 260, or even 6.5x55 for same weight and better performance.

[littlejerry]

Have any of you experimented with the cheaper blasting ammo options from Wolf and Prvi?

[ranger]

Have any of you experimented with the cheaper blasting ammo options from Wolf and Prvi?

Yes, I have shot the steel case wolf 6.5G - as you might expect, it is cheap and not especially accurate. I hated to shoot the bimetal projectiles though my better quality 6.5G barrels. I have a case of the Wolf 6.5G steel case on the floor but now that I reload 6.5G not sure when I will use it. Over the holiday sales, I think you could buy the Wolf 6.5G steel case for similar cost to the steel case 223. A buddy of mine bought one of the inexpensive 6.5G uppers from AIM SURPLUS plus the cheap Wolf 6.5 Steel case and he is enjoying "plinking" with the combo. The Wolf 6.5G steel case is no where near the quality of the Hornady 6.5G offerings. To me the beauty of the 6.5G is its accuracy - so the steel case 6.5G plinking ammo seems contradictory. However, I think the interest is 6.5G will increase in the AK community. An AK in 6.5G shooting Wolf steel case 6.5G would be very interesting!

I shot a LOT of the Prvi brass cased 6.5G - it shot extremely accurate for me. Unfortunately, PRVI will no longer sell 6.5G at this time and recalled all its 6.5G ammo. I had about 220 rounds of 6.5G Prvi brass case on hand and I exchanged it for 220 rounds of 308/3006 hunting ammo (best PRVI offers anyway). PS - Prvi CS was very good. No one in the 6.5G community knows why Prvi stopped selling/recalled its 6.5G ammo (my personal opinion - there is variation in the 6.5G chambers and bolts combination for AR - it appears to me you could get "X" barrel chamber and "y" bolt face and have a damaged case - this is a thread to itself in the 6.5G world - if you want a 6.5G, I suggest you buy the barrel and bolt at same time).

FYI - Word in the 6.5G community is that Prvi makes the Wolf brass case 6.5G also (unconfirmed but much speculation). I have not seen any Wolf brass case 6.5G since Prvi quit selling their brass case 6.5G. I miss the Prvi 6.5G and hope they sell it again!

[JHC]

But, for a pure hunting rifle, I would go with a 260 Remington (or 6.5 Creedmoor) bolt action. I am a heretic on the 6.5G forum as they are all waxing poetic over the Howa 6.5G bolt action rifles - you can get a 6.5 CM, 260, or even 6.5x55 for same weight and better performance.

Great post! IF one was not reloading, would that tilt it somewhat to the 6.5G?

[SLG]

Have any of you experimented with the cheaper blasting ammo options from Wolf and Prvi?

Totally agree with Ranger. Accuracy is a key part of the 6.5. Lilja barrels do not deserve junk ammo. Shooting cheap ammo seems silly, when all of us have good 5.56 guns available for the high volume, less accuracy days.

[littlejerry]

Great post! IF one was not reloading, would that tilt it somewhat to the 6.5G?

I recently read an article looking at 16" 6.5 Creed ballistics and how they compare to 22" .308 on drop and drift. The 6.5 was the same or better all the way to 1000 yards. Kinda makes you wonder about building a lightweight 16" 6.5 Creed.

If only Tikka would sell standard T3s in 6.5...

[ranger]

Great post! IF one was not reloading, would that tilt it somewhat to the 6.5G?

I got a great deal on the 260. Whether reloading or not, I would go 6.5 Creedmoor today. There is SO much industry support for 6.5CM. Hornady has done this right while Remington never adequately supported the 260. At my local Cabelas, there are multiple factory 6.5CM on the shelf - target and hunting. There are currently ZERO 260 boxes at the local Cabelas. I reload the 260 and I resize 7-08 or 243 brass (you can use 308 but more work). The 7-08 loaded into 260 very well though (any of you want to donate some 7-08!). Actually, Hornady is offering 260 loads this year (interesting as 260 competes with the 6.5CM - kudos to Hornady). My reloading bench has 6.5G, 6.5CM, and 260. I use 120+ grain projectiles in the 6.5G and the 260 and I am using 140+ grain projectiles in the 6.5CM. I tend to buy blems and overruns from the Nosler Pro Shop when they are on sale. I have some Barnes TSX and Nosler GMX for hunting loads.

[ranger]

Great post! IF one was not reloading, would that tilt it somewhat to the 6.5G?

In fact - thread drift - if in market today, I would but the "new" Kimber Hunter model in 6.5 Creedmoor. I suspect that Tikka will have T3x Lite in 6.5CM soon if not already - I know they already offer the CM in 6.5CM.

[butler coach]

Thanks for the info. Going go load some ammo up for my new 6.5 g. And head out to shoot it when temp gets above 0.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Comparing the 6.5G to the 6.5CM and .260 is not accurate given the vast disparity in case length and volume between the 6.5G and those two. As said a few times in this thread, the 6.5G is the best highly available (components, mags, reloading supplies, etc) solution for the AR-15 platform. Near .308 performance in an AR-15 sized package. Not .308 performance in an AR-10 package.

[45dotACP]

Any particular company make a good 6.5 upper?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[DocGKR]

For those wanting to hunt med size game to eat, then sticking with well designed non-fragmenting projectiles (typically bonded or monolithic) is best.

In .223/5.56 mm for hunting deer and hogs under 200-300, go with bullets like the Fed TBBC, Speer Gold Dot (or identical Fed Fusion), Nosler/Win Bonded, Nosler Partition, Rem CLUB, Swift Scirocco, Barnes TSX/TTSX, and Hornady GMX.

6.8 mm is great for deer and hogs out to 300 or so, again using bonded or monolithic projectiles.

6.5G works for going longer using an AR15, with the limitations discussed by SLG.

For larger game like elk, I prefer a .260 Rem/6.5C, .308, .30-06.

In a bolt gun, I find no reason to go with .223. .300 BLK, 6.8, 6.5G and stick with calibers with more case capacity like .260 Rem/6.5C, .308, .30-06.

[SLG]

Any particular company make a good 6.5 upper?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Anyone who can build a high quality AR can put one together, no doubt.

My one stop shop today would be Precision Firearms.

[GJM]

1) thoughts on 6.5 Grendel vs 6.5 Creedmoor as hunting cartridges in the AR platform?

2) with over two dozen elk, caribou, moose and mule deer in the mountain west and Alaska, I am very partial to .270 and .300 magnum cartridges for these animals, for power and flat trajectory.

[ranger]

Doc - since you have joined in this thread, thanks! - do you have any insights as to why the designers of the 6.8SPC went with .277 (6.8) bore size versus .264 (6.5)? There are some AR wildcats using 6.5 projectiles in 6.8 cases now trying to get the "best" of both - avoiding the bolt issues of the 6.5G while using the 6.8 case but using 6.5 projectiles to get the better BC.

[ranger]

1) thoughts on 6.5 Grendel vs 6.5 Creedmoor as hunting cartridges in the AR platform?

2) with over two dozen elk, caribou, moose and mule deer in the mountain west and Alaska, I am very partial to .270 and .300 magnum cartridges for these animals, for power and flat trajectory.

1) I will comment. Again, the 6.5 Grendel excels as the "best" cartridge constrained by the AR platform. If you want to hunt and you restrict yourself to the AR platform - it is the best thing going - IMHO. The 6.5G is outclassed by the 6.5CM because of the extra powder capacity and therefore velocity.

2) I do not like recoil - there, I said it. I like the 260 and 6.5CM as best compromise for ME for lethality versus recoil. I do not like magnum recoil. 270 is excellent - what would be really interesting to me would be the 6.5-06 based on a 270/30-06 necked down to 6.5 but I do not want to go down the custom rifle path. 6.5 Creedmoor in the Hornady Superformance load with 120 GMX is good enough for me.

[LittleLebowski]

1) thoughts on 6.5 Grendel vs 6.5 Creedmoor as hunting cartridges in the AR platform?

2) with over two dozen elk, caribou, moose and mule deer in the mountain west and Alaska, I am very partial to .270 and .300 magnum cartridges for these animals, for power and flat trajectory.

There's just too much more power in the 6.5CM due to case capacity. Now, if you start prioritizing "light and more packable" and are judicious about your shots, the 6.5G could work. Also, if you want to swap in between say a .204Ruger upper or .223 upper for varminting and then to 6.5G for medium range hunting, that would be convenient. The same for a thumper like .300Blk or .50 Beowulf and then switch over to the 6.5G for medium range hunting.

[GJM]

Here is some data comparing the 6.5G, 6.5C and .300 WM.

velocity and energy at 300 and 400 yards, all with 24 inch barrel which is quite long for the 6.5G and C, but that is what Hornady showed:

6.5G at 300 yards, 2,090fps/1,193 ft-pounds at 400 yards, 1,940 fps/1,028 ft-pounds
6.5C at 300 yards, 2,330 fps/1,446 ft-pounds. at 400 yards, 2,148 fps/1,230 ft-pounds
.300WM at 300 yards, 2546 fps/ 2,589 ft-pounds. at 400 yards, 2,366 fps/2,238 ft-pounds

Drop at 300 and 400 yards with a 200 yard zero:

6.5G 8.70 and 25.30 inches
6.5C 7.10 and 20.60 inches
.300 5.90 and 17.30 inches

[LittleLebowski]

Here is some data comparing the 6.5G, 6.5C and .300 WM.

velocity and energy at 300 and 400 yards, all with 24 inch barrel which is quite long for the 6.5G and C, but that is what Hornady showed:

6.5G at 300 yards, 2,090fps/1,193 ft-pounds at 400 yards, 1,940 fps/1,028 ft-pounds
6.5C at 300 yards, 2,330 fps/1,446 ft-pounds. at 400 yards, 2,148 fps/1,230 ft-pounds
.300WM at 300 yards, 2546 fps/ 2,589 ft-pounds. at 400 yards, 2,366 fps/2,238 ft-pounds

Drop at 300 and 400 yards with a 200 yard zero:

6.5G 8.70 and 25.30 inches
6.5C 7.10 and 20.60 inches
.300 5.90 and 17.30 inches

No surprises. Different applications, different niches.

[DocGKR]

"do you have any insights as to why the designers of the 6.8SPC went with .277 (6.8) bore size versus .264 (6.5)?"

Uh...because it worked better for the requirements.

There is a lot of misinformation regarding 6.8 mm SPC development, for example this flawed article: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/04/04/not-so-special-a-critical-view-of-the-6-8mm-spc

This is a better article, but still not perfect: http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.8-mm-spc-cartridge-history-development-hornady-stag-arms-carbine

Keep in mind I was there at the original terminal performance testing of 6.8 mm and still retain much of the email and lab data from those initial test sessions in early 2002. By the time I got involved, the original designers of 6.8 mm SPC--Steve Holland of 5th SFG(A) and Cris Murray at AMU, as well as Troy Lawton of AMU had already tried a 6 mm PPC case necked up to 6.5 mm and had too many reliability issues in AR15 variants. They then went with a modified .30 Rem case in several calibers--those are what we began testing in the Spring and Summer of 2002, with the first results being discussed at the USSOCOM M4 SOPMOD OCONUS Review at Ft. Campbell in Aug of 2002. At the first round of testing, there was no 6.8 variant. The 6 mm versions did not do well against intermediate barriers and the 7.62 mm version did not offer anything better than 7.62x39 mm. The 6.5mm bullets showed the best accuracy and the 7mm bullets were the most destructive. I may still even have some of those early SPC cartridges left with the 6.5 SPC and 7 mm SPC headstamps. A month later, we tested a 6.8 mm compromise variant--the 0.277" bullets showed nearly the same accuracy as the 6.5 mm version and almost as good terminal performance of the 7mm, thus the 6.8 mm SPC was born.

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/SPC_trials.jpg

[SLG]

Scopes for the 6.5G.

Any good scope will work, if it is suitable for your intended use. As you can see from my pics, that means NF for me. Specifically, the 2.5-10. It may be the single scope to rule them all, if I could only have one scope to do everything I want.

On the 6.5, it offers excellent low light ability and illumination for hunting. Excellent tracking for repeatable precision. Ruggedness in a reasonable weight. Good reticles that you can bias towards hunting or precision shooting. An easy to use zero stop:-)

For me, it is perfect for the purpose, but other scopes are fine as well. Just depends on what you want to be able to do. The NF allows me to do anything I want with the G, which is how it should be.

[RichY]

Scopes for the 6.5G.

Any good scope will work, if it is suitable for your intended use. As you can see from my pics, that means NF for me. Specifically, the 2.5-10. It may be the single scope to rule them all, if I could only have one scope to do everything I want.

On the 6.5, it offers excellent low light ability and illumination for hunting. Excellent tracking for repeatable precision. Ruggedness in a reasonable weight. Good reticles that you can bias towards hunting or precision shooting. An easy to use zero stop:-)

For me, it is perfect for the purpose, but other scopes are fine as well. Just depends on what you want to be able to do. The NF allows me to do anything I want with the G, which is how it should be.

SLG, what scope mount are you using on your 6.5 Grendel?

[SLG]

SLG, what scope mount are you using on your 6.5 Grendel?

A NF Unimount.

[RichY]

A NF Unimount.

Thanks!

[Crews]

Great observations. I have really enjoyed my introduction to 6.5mm projectiles with the purchase of a Creedmoor.

Currently investigating the possibility of assembling a Grendel upper for all the reasons above: it will make a great CHEAP way to shoot paper targets out past 600 yards, and replace my 6.8 for intermediate range deer hunting.


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[SLG]

https://secure.wf-api.com/www.precisionfirearms.com/m8/6.5%20Grendel%20Neptune%20EL%20V-I--6-5-grendel-neptune-el-v-i.html

This is a great hunting upper. PF (nice initials!) is having a 10% off sale before SHOT, so if you want one, this seems like a good time. Lots of other choices as well.

[leif]

Thanks for this thread. I've just started researching the 6.5G after being slightly frustrated with the weight of my tOBR. Seems like a no brainer to swap a barrel into one of my 5.56 guns and have better performance than my 308 at a fraction of the weight.

Atho that PF upper is a few pennies more than a build would be without any of the work..hmm.

[littlejerry]

Fyi- just saw that Federal announced they will be selling a 120gr 6.5 Grendel Fusion(gold dot) load in 2017. No word on BC for it.

[JM Campbell]

Fyi- just saw that Federal announced they will be selling a 120gr 6.5 Grendel Fusion(gold dot) load in 2017. No word on BC for it.

Ummm thanks for making it harder to say no.



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[SLG]

I'm very excited to try that new gold dot ammo out. It will likely keep me from having to load ttsx for a while.

[DocGKR]

I too am excited about the 6.5G Gold Dot/Fusion load...

[butler coach]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170112/d5792874061381a872790ecdbb932213.jpg

123 grain match kings. Over 26 grains tac powder. Can't wait to try them out for group.


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[Win94ae]

The more I looked into the numbers, the more I realized that this is a great cartridge! I've always admired the BCs of the 6.5mm bullets.

I was thinking of getting an AR-10, but I am considering an AR-15 in the 6.5mm Grendel now.

[butler coach]

The more I looked into the numbers, the more I realized that this is a great cartridge! I've always admired the BCs of the 6.5mm bullets.

I was thinking of getting an AR-10, but I am considering an AR-15 in the 6.5mm Grendel now.

Just get one of each. Lol


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[Crews]

What is the peanut gallery's thoughts on high(ish) BC bullets with the lowest minimum expansion velocity?
My max range for ethical shots on deer would most likely not exceed 300 yards, but I will take shots at hogs way further out.

The Nosler LRAB looked pretty good with a G1 BC of .56 and a minimum expansion velocity of 1300fps, but they seem to be discontinued.

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[LittleLebowski]

123 grain match kings. Over 26 grains tac powder. Can't wait to try them out for group.



If 6.5G works well w/ Tac, I'm going to have to poor impulse control :(

[butler coach]

If 6.5G works well w/ Tac, I'm going to have to poor impulse control :(

I will see what I can do this weekend to shoot it for group. Min is 25.4 Max load is 28.2 so I started low so we will see


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[butler coach]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170116/13fbab0a066e7e49b2009efbc0c433a9.jpg

So this is the 3 shot group from my load. Going to try and push it faster next load.
I am mostly happy with this it's a hunting gun not a match gun.
37 deg
Rain
420 pm
Will try again when I have more time


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[ranger]

If anyone has a 6.5G load that mimics the Hornady factory AMAX or SST load I would love to have it. I was shooting my reloads this weekend with the 123 Nosler CC bullet and 8208XBR powder - the groups were ok (1 inch at 100 yards) but hoping for better.

[LittleLebowski]

So this is the 3 shot group from my load. Going to try and push it faster next load.
I am mostly happy with this it's a hunting gun not a match gun.
37 deg
Rain
420 pm
Will try again when I have more time


26.0 of TG?

[butler coach]

26.0 of TG?

26 grain tac powder


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[SecondsCount]

If anyone has a 6.5G load that mimics the Hornady factory AMAX or SST load I would love to have it. I was shooting my reloads this weekend with the 123 Nosler CC bullet and 8208XBR powder - the groups were ok (1 inch at 100 yards) but hoping for better.

What was your powder charge weight? Primer?

Here is a thread on the powder Hornady is using (http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?134-What-powder-to-copy-the-Hornady-123gr-AMAX-What-else-would-I-need-to-do)

[LittleLebowski]

26 grain tac powder



Whoops, typo on my part, that's what I meant :D

[butler coach]

Whoops, typo on my part, that's what I meant :D

Group measures .902 inches.


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[guymontag]

And how are we all feeling now in 2019? I’m flirting with the idea of 6.5 Grendel with a Ballistic Advantage barrel so any updates or further opinions would be welcome. Are we mainly handloading? Best magazines are Elanders?

Edit: Any home builds running well? What vital parts are you using (barrels, bolts, etc.)?

[Clusterfrack]

I'm still very happy with my Alexander Arms 16" lightweight upper. I've been spanking steel out to 900 yds, and couldn't ask for a more versatile rifle.

E-lander mags seem to be very solid--much heavier construction than a typical AR mag.

I don't like heavy barreled Grendels. What's the point? If I was going to have a rifle that heavy, I'd get a 6.5CM AR-10. To me the only Grendels that make sense are light and short.

BTW, I recently learned that if you forget your 6.5G mags, you can load a few rounds in a standard 5.56 magazine.

1st and 2nd round hits on 12x24" steel at 860yds (far ridge)
42634

(Grendel on the left)
42635

[randyho]

(Grendel on the left)

Optic and thoughts on?

[Clusterfrack]

Optic and thoughts on?

It's a Burris XTR 2 3-15x50 FFP illuminated SCR mil/mil (BRS-201031) on an ADM QR mount (AD Recon STD 34). It is a very bright and crisp scope, and good for close range to 800-900yds. I got a good deal on it, and it looks like the price is still pretty good on these. I can't think of a better scope under $1k.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-xtreme-tactical-3-15-50mm-illum-riflescope.html

[ranger]

I have a 20 inch SABRE 6.5 Grendel upper. Using a Vortex Viper PST Gen 1 6-24x50 MIL/MIL in a Warne 20 MOA one piece mount. Ran it to 800 yards recently with a 0 MOA mount and ran out of elevation - will try to 1000 yards this week with the 20 MOA mount.

I shoot reloads - Nosler 123 Custom Competition BTHPs over CFE223 powder in Federal or Hornaday brass and whatever SRP on hand.

[ranger]

I just got back from a long range facility in TN (K&M Precision). I ran my SABRE upper 20 inch 6.5 Grendel to 1000 yards but I was probably about 75% on a 24x24 plate at 1000. No issues on 300 through 800 but past 800 was stretching my set up. I shot about 250 rounds of my reloaded with mixed Hornady, Federal, and PPU brass over CFE223 and 123 Nosler Custom Competitions. In my opinion, the Grendel really dominates the "mid range" of greater than 300 but less than 900. I had a custom 6.5 CM bolt on the line also for the 900 to 1200.

[LittleLebowski]

And how are we all feeling now in 2019? I’m flirting with the idea of 6.5 Grendel with a Ballistic Advantage barrel so any updates or further opinions would be welcome. Are we mainly handloading? Best magazines are Elanders?

Edit: Any home builds running well? What vital parts are you using (barrels, bolts, etc.)?

I just bought a LaRue, I will make sure to update this thread when I get it and shoot it.

[maximus83]

I just bought a LaRue, I will make sure to update this thread when I get it and shoot it.

Good call. I recently took the plunge to 6.5G and was looking at Larue, AA, and PF, all have good creds with the 65Grendel guys. I have an upper in the queue at PF, they have a 12-14 week lead time so it should be here in a month.

Right now, thinking about optics, interested to hear what you'll run on the Larue. Mine will be an 18" mid-weight precision barrel, given the realistic hunting/target ranges I'll be shooting at, I plan to run a lighter 2.5-10x FFP.

[LittleLebowski]

Good call. I recently took the plunge to 6.5G and was looking at Larue, AA, and PF, all have good creds with the 65Grendel guys. I have an upper in the queue at PF, they have a 12-14 week lead time so it should be here in a month.

Right now, thinking about optics, interested to hear what you'll run on the Larue. Mine will be an 18" mid-weight precision barrel, given the realistic hunting/target ranges I'll be shooting at, I plan to run a lighter 2.5-10x FFP.

I'm thinking the same thing for the scope.

[guymontag]

I just bought a LaRue, I will make sure to update this thread when I get it and shoot it.

Well I’ll just go be poor somewhere else.

I already have an upper/lower/rail that’s sitting lonely in the safe so it’ll be a frankenbuild for me. Awesome choice on the Larue.

[guymontag]

Good call. I recently took the plunge to 6.5G and was looking at Larue, AA, and PF, all have good creds with the 65Grendel guys.

I’ve looked at the 65Grendel forum, any impressions you’ve seen on just barrels from there? AA, Faxon, Ballistic Advantage? I see they have group buys all the time that I think come from Faxon.

[ranger]

ARP has their 6.5 G barrels - 18 and 20 inch on closeout. He is a 6.8 guy at heart and often hates on 6.5 G but I have built three 6.5 G uppers with ARP barrels and they were all shooters. If you want to piece together a 6.5 G upper - this may be a deal for you. https://www.ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/38016/41933

My shooting partner recently built an 18 inch 6.5 G ARP barreled upper and it worked great out to 900 yards with Hornady Black.

[maximus83]

I’ve looked at the 65Grendel forum, any impressions you’ve seen on just barrels from there? AA, Faxon, Ballistic Advantage? I see they have group buys all the time that I think come from Faxon.

All three get pretty good feedback from what I saw. At first I planned to use a Faxon barrel too and put together my own upper, but decided to opt for the PF and go for a precision upper since I don't have one in 5.56.

[LOKNLOD]

I built mine around an 18" Faxon match gunner barrel and bolt.

I got the bbl on sale from Aim Surplus last Black friday for $172... and it came with a pinned Faxon gas block.