Pistol Caliber Carbine

[GJM]

For those that follow USPSA, there is a provisional new division, called PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine). In PCC, competitors fire pistol caliber carbines on the same courses of fire as the other USPSA divisions. Rules are available here:

https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php

I started shooting PCC about a month ago, and it is incredibly fun to shoot and very addicting. Unlike Carry Optics, another provisional division, which I seem about the only person interested in, each week there are more PCC competitors at matches. Last weekend in Las Vegas, more PCC competitors than Production. Two reasons, I think -- it allows you to deploy a carbine at practical distances, and it is incredible fun to shoot. I have heard it referred to as long gun Open division.

Being a person that likes basically everything in every caliber, I have messed around with hardware.

I started with a JP GMR-13, which is basically JP's version of a blow back Colt 6951 9mm carbine. It is a great PCC choice. My two have yet to have a single stoppage, they are PCC accurate, great trigger, and out of the box all they need is an optic to compete. The GMR-13 is popular enough, they are very hard to get, despite costing about $1,700. Many magazine options are available, boosting capacity to around 40 rounds. Here are the downsides of the JP. The magazine release is small and stiff, and combined with a smallish mag well and the blunt shaped Glock magazines, they are harder to reload fast. The other issue is it is a blow back design, meaning the heavier the power factor of your ammo, the more it recoils. I have been running PMC 115 in my JP with good results.

I also have a Sig MPX. Unlike the JP and other blow back carbines, the MPX uses a gas system. It has some warts. It comes with a lousy trigger, and after market triggers may not hold up, although there is a Geissele MPX trigger in the works. The MPX needs 300 or so full power rounds for a break in. Also, the magazines need to be left loaded several weeks, or they will not work with a slide forward reload, where you manually strip a round (no problem with the slide locked back). There are ten round extensions available from Taran and Springer, adding to the 10, 20 and 30 round capacity factory mags (made by Lancer, I believe). Magazines are expensive compared to the JP using Glock pattern magazines. Here is the big thing, the MPX is incredibly soft shooting compared to a blow back, and stays soft shooting whether you are using PMC 115 or heavy Lawman 147.

Bill Wilson is making up a Beretta mag AR9 for me to try, and I look forward to ringing that out. I expect typical Wilson quality, and fast reloads using the tapered MecGar 92 mags. An issue is there are OEM 30 round mags, but no extensions available for those.

I have posted some videos in another PCC thread, which give a feel for the action. In most stages, if you don't screw up, you will never reload, as you have about 40 rounds in the carbine. Reloads only come in for classifiers, which I haven't focused on yet. Just recently, I started dry practicing reloads, and have my MPX live fire reloads in the 1.75 range. Here is one at full speed:


https://youtu.be/MLtwFSOalEo

And here is one in slo mo, to see where I can shave time:


https://youtu.be/0W_nP8aviFY

I will probably cover optics in another post as I need to go take the dog for a hike.

[okie john]

Tagged.

I've long thought that the pistol-caliber carbine doesn't get the attention it deserves. It's a fairly natural/obvious step between handguns and long guns, and you can shoot it in a lot of places where rifle cartridges are prohibited.

Interested to see how this develops.


Okie John

[Edwin]

If you get an MPX and are having trouble with some of the heavier weight, lighter gas loads like 147 grn or 158 grn, make sure your gas port is the proper dimension. I've found more than a few MPX with gas ports smaller than 0.050" have issues with these loads. Opening up your gas port to 0.050" or even 0.055" will solve the issue. If you don't want to do the work yourself, ADCO will do it for $15 (https://www.adcofirearms.com/shopservices/shop_qnew2016.cfm?code=Barrel%20Modification-Repair).

[Joe in PNG]

I'm actually interested in this sort of thing, and am pondering either the Beretta CX-4 or the CZ Skorpion Evo 3.
The Beretta would be cheaper, and use the same mags I already have. But I hear the trigger isn't the greatest.
On the other hand, the CZ tweaks my cool button.

Any experience, caveats, or general notes on the two?

[Gadfly]

I shot the MPX 8.5" before Christmas. Very soft shooting. Very easy to make hits. It is a bit heavy for what it is, but it's not like you are carrying it all day.

I like it. Not liking the price, especially the Mag prices. But it is an ergonomically correct MP5.


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[Kyle Reese]

Looking to buy one for my daughter. Following this thread with interest.

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[Edwin]

I'm actually interested in this sort of thing, and am pondering either the Beretta CX-4 or the CZ Skorpion Evo 3.
The Beretta would be cheaper, and use the same mags I already have. But I hear the trigger isn't the greatest.
On the other hand, the CZ tweaks my cool button.

Any experience, caveats, or general notes on the two?

Sierra Papa (http://sierrapapacx4.com/)can take care of all your CX4 needs.

[Dave Williams]

I've done a ton of this kind of shooting. Friends and I used to have a big match called Steelapalooza. Basically a course where you run from firing position to firing position, sometimes shooting on the move, sometime not, depending on the stage. Generally they'd be 30+ steel targets of various kinds and difficulty levels. We'd shoot this with a 9mm AR with a dot of some sort, requiring 1 reload or a transition to pistol if necessary, plus unusual positions like SBU prone and weak shoulder firing. I feel that this is great training for building reflexive handling with a carbine, much more valuable than a class IMO once you have baseline skill. I've been hoping you'd do a thread on this, with some pics of your carbine /gear setups.

[GJM]

Dave, prior to PCC, I can't tell you how many times I took a 5.56 AR to the range, with good intentions to shoot it after the pistol session, but just didn't get to it, because of the issues related to 5.56. Now, I am shooting the carbine as part of every pistol session. I have shot more carbine in the last month than in the last five years combined.

My wife shot the MPX today for the first time and loved it. She was sharpening my extended ready technique, based on Rogers School doctrine, and demoing me .58 extended ready hits to the eight inch at 25 yards. Tonight she is commenting how she can't wait to shoot the MPX tomorrow, and how she would like a short barrel one as a lower 48 PDW.

There is so much win in PCC, between fun competing, and the training part using the carbine at practical distances. I think we will see more and more 9mm carbines, as manufacturers see this trend.

[fatdog]

Our last local USPSA club match of the year I shot my old registered SBR semi-auto MP5 clone (from an HK parts kit build a decade ago). It was a blast and my times were keeping up with the open shooters for a change. I predict a lot of people are going to play the game in this division as time marches on because it is fun. My next go round with be with the 9mm conversion kit in my Tavor.

I agree that if it catches on there will be some demand for more of these types of guns.

[JSGlock34]

I recently put together a MKE MP5 clone...though I don't think it would be competitive against the various 9mm ARs, I have a strange desire to shoot it in a PCC match because...reasons.

[OlongJohnson]

Curious whether this thread can get anyone thinking about my zero-responses-so-far 9mm carbine ammo post.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22591-357-Sig-vs-9mm-bullet-construction-vs-9mm-carbines

[GJM]

Curious whether this thread can get anyone thinking about my zero-responses-so-far 9mm carbine ammo post.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22591-357-Sig-vs-9mm-bullet-construction-vs-9mm-carbines

Here is some chrono data from a few days ago, from my 14.7 inch barrel MPX.

MPX 147 Lawman 1,085
MPX 115 PMC 1,238

First question, is whether those velocities are outside the design parameters for 9mm, assuming comparable velocity for JHP?

[GJM]

I got a question on mag carriers.

For my Glock magazine PCC, I use this rig:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender_zpsn8yiadkx.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender_zpsn8yiadkx.jpg.html)

A few Ghost mag pouches up front for quick reloads, and Taco regular and long pistol mags behind to hold the 30 and 40 round Glock mags. This is my general Timmie rig, that I modify to accommodate whatever is interesting me at the moment. Incidentally, for Glock mags, most people are using Glock OEM 33 round mags with Taylor Freelance, Dawson or Taran extensions, to get around 40 rounds in the carbine to start.


For the MPX, I have a dedicated belt, and three Blade Tech MPX specific mag holders, which are available from Sig Sauer. On the MPX mags, I am using Springer Precision and Taran ten round extensions on the OEM 30 round magazines.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender%202_zpsrlrv2ugl.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender%202_zpsrlrv2ugl.jpg.html)

One of the best sources of PCC technical info is the PCC sub forum on Enos.

http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/forum/318-pistol-caliber-carbine-technical/

[Robinson]

Tagged.

I've long thought that the pistol-caliber carbine doesn't get the attention it deserves. It's a fairly natural/obvious step between handguns and long guns, and you can shoot it in a lot of places where rifle cartridges are prohibited.

Interested to see how this develops.


Okie John

So now people are liking PCCs? In other threads here (I think I started one of them) I've seen almost nothing but negative comments about them. I had been thinking about a suppressed 9mm carbine for home defense use, thinking it could be a little more effective than a pistol depending on circumstances. Especially as there are proven 147gr subsonic ammo offerings readily available.

Or is this thread just about sporting/recreational use and not for use in a defensive role?

[GJM]

So now people are liking PCCs? In other threads here (I think I started one of them) I've seen almost nothing but negative comments about them. I had been thinking about a suppressed 9mm carbine for home defense use, thinking it could be a little more effective than a pistol depending on circumstances. Especially as there are proven 147gr subsonic ammo offerings readily available.

Or is this thread just about sporting/recreational use and not for use in a defensive role?


It is about whatever you want -- fun competing, excellent training for rifle caliber carbines, or defensive use, if you value an accurate shooting, quiet long gun that holds a bunch of rounds, and is easy to shoot well.

[rob_s]

So now people are liking PCCs? In other threads here (I think I started one of them) I've seen almost nothing but negative comments about them. I had been thinking about a suppressed 9mm carbine for home defense use, thinking it could be a little more effective than a pistol depending on circumstances. Especially as there are proven 147gr subsonic ammo offerings readily available.

Or is this thread just about sporting/recreational use and not for use in a defensive role?

I can only speak for myself.

PCC as a ninja tool is pointless.

PCC as a fun gun is a lot of fun.

[Robinson]

I can only speak for myself.

PCC as a ninja tool is pointless.

PCC as a fun gun is a lot of fun.

I'm not a ninja. Is it less effective in the home defense role than a pistol of the same caliber? Some pros I can think of are: easier to shoot well, it's probably a better platform for a suppressor, lots of choices for good optical sights.

I think we can all agree that a pistol cartridge is not as effective as a rifle cartridge at stopping a threat. But then neither is a pistol compared to a rifle, and pistols are a common choice in the HD role.

[GJM]

I'm not a ninja. Is it less effective in the home defense role than a pistol of the same caliber? Some pros I can think of are: easier to shoot well, it's probably a better platform for a suppressor, lots of choices for good optical sights.

I think we can all agree that a pistol cartridge is not as effective as a rifle cartridge at stopping a threat. But then neither is a pistol compared to a rifle, and pistols are a common choice in the HD role.

Maybe you could get Rob's attention with a PCC based on a Glock 19:

http://mechtechsys.com/glock-carbine-conversion/

[rob_s]

I'm not a ninja. Is it less effective in the home defense role than a pistol of the same caliber? Some pros I can think of are: easier to shoot well, it's probably a better platform for a suppressor, lots of choices for good optical sights.

I think we can all agree that a pistol cartridge is not as effective as a rifle cartridge at stopping a threat. But then neither is a pistol compared to a rifle, and pistols are a common choice in the HD role.
Sounds like you have it all figured out then.



Maybe you could get Rob's attention with a PCC based on a Glock 19:

http://mechtechsys.com/glock-carbine-conversion/
I think I threw up a little bit in my mouth.

[Robinson]

Sounds like you have it all figured out then.

If I had it all figured out I wouldn't be asking questions. I'm not trying to tell you or anyone else what's what -- just participating in a meaningful discussion. I'm honestly interested in discussing the negatives of a pistol caliber carbine vs. a pistol for home defense. I currently have an AR that shoots a rifle cartridge so it's not like I'm a PCC advocate.

[alohadoug]

I think I threw up a little bit in my mouth.
Are these a little better?
http://www.rockyourglock.com/custom/RONIRG2-9.htm
http://www.fab-defense.com/en/category-pistol-to-carbine-conversion-kit/id-266/2nd-gen-pdw-conversion-kit-for-glock-9mm-models-.html

[Malamute]

I can only speak for myself.

PCC as a ninja tool is pointless.

PCC as a fun gun is a lot of fun.

So youre saying a PCC is not functional or effective as a defensive piece? Perhaps the "ninja tool" was humor, most of us aren't ninjas and are working on figuring out things that work in out individual circumstances. For myself, a PCC (liver action in my case) as a house or close up defensive arm makes sense, with dramatically reduced muzzle blast from a rifle cartridge and easier to shoot quickly and well.

[rob_s]

So youre saying a PCC is not functional or effective as a defensive piece? Perhaps the "ninja tool" was humor, most of us aren't ninjas and are working on figuring out things that work in out individual circumstances. For myself, a PCC (liver action in my case) as a house or close up defensive arm makes sense, with dramatically reduced muzzle blast from a rifle cartridge and easier to shoot quickly and well.

See, you have it all sorted as well.

[GJM]

Some of my PCC hardware, first the Sig MPX, then the JP GMR-13.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender%203_zps3asbpqbr.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender%203_zps3asbpqbr.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender%202_zpsbmbzgc5j.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender%202_zpsbmbzgc5j.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender_zpsth3ncdxw.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender_zpsth3ncdxw.jpg.html)

[Little Creek]

Of course you can't shoot it in PCC matches, but a 300 AAC Blackout using subsonic ammo is great for shooting AR500 targets at pistols distances. The subsonic ammo will not damage the targets in the least. You can also load subsonic 300 BO cheaper, with coated cast bullets, than you can buy 9mm plinking ammo. Just sayin.

[Malamute]

See, you have it all sorted as well.

Your agreement and endorsement of Robinsons and my comments seems at odds with your previous comment. When asked to elaborate on your earlier comment, you changed your opinion?

[Hideeho]

I bought an MPX-P a few weeks ago for my 60th birthday. Sig had Individual Officer Pricing, which may or may not be available for future MPX's. The MPX is what I call my "old man gun". Wanted a PDW that was light recoiling and worked well with a red dot. The older you get the less recoil and more vision assist the better. I considered other manufacturers because I was reluctant to go with the MPX. While researching I was continually told get the MPX over Brands X, Y, and Z. Let me start this next statement with YMMV, but the MPX is the most fun I have had with a gun in a long time. I have much time shooting department UZI's and MP5's. This is a softer shooter. Magazines are about $50 each. Certainly not Glock price, but Lancer mags are solid. I'm open to ideas, need help justifying buying 10 round extensions because they cost almost as much as a new magazine. I have a bunch of 30 rounders and a few 10 rounders. 1500 rounds fired, zero malfunctions. My big complaint is the trigger. Geissele is working on one. They say their current triggers will probably fail within 2,000 rounds. Please let me know if there are proven options. Guess the only other complaint is how easy it is to shoot. A day at the range can get expensive real quick. Here are a few pics. Replaced the folding brace with SB Tactical's retractable brace and grip with Ergo grip.
12855
12856

[Win94ae]

The family has 2 PCCs; a hi-point 9mm, and a Marlin 1894S 44mag.
I've shot them both out to 250 yards on torso targets; they both can hit the target.

If I had time to get to either one in a situation, I'd grab the AK, or the pistol next to them.

I got that much sorted out.

[Dave Williams]

Cool guns and gear guys, I'm jonesing for a 9mm AR now.

[alohadoug]

How about an M1 Carbine in 9mm using Beretta 92 mags...
http://chiappafirearms.com/product/2679

[GJM]

How about an M1 Carbine in 9mm using Beretta 92 mags...
http://chiappafirearms.com/product/2679

Looks perfect for IDPA.

[orionz06]

Looks perfect for IDPA.

http://i.imgur.com/H3XP7xE.png

[alohadoug]

Looks perfect for IDPA.

And for American Zoot Shoot Association (www.zootshooter.com)

[bkent]

And for American Zoot Shoot Association (www.zootshooter.com)

http://www.zootshooters.com

Seems messed up that they can shoot guns a decade into the future, relative to their costumes. ;)

[alohadoug]

http://www.zootshooters.com

Seems messed up that they can shoot guns a decade into the future, relative to their costumes. ;)

Thanks for the fix.

Costume or not, it can be a lot of fun.... something about blasting away with a Tommy gun....

[H&KFanNC]

I've been jonesing for a CZ Scorpion Evo 3 for a few months now...


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[Mr. Goodtimes]

This could be the final push I need to pick up an APC 9 or SP89.


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[nycnoob]

Has anyone tried a Tavor with the 9mm conversion?
It seems like a nice combination (223/9) for use as
a Truck gun and for practice shooting
(well if you live in a state where such things are legal)

[D.O.A.F.S.]

Has anyone tried a Tavor with the 9mm conversion?
It seems like a nice combination (223/9) for use as
a Truck gun and for practice shooting
(well if you live in a state where such things are legal)
I have a 5.56 Tavor and have given the 9mm conversion a lot of thought. I've been shooting pcc in uspsa since it started in July with an ar sbr, short barrels definitely make life easier. There are places that I think the Tavor would really shine but not everywhere because of the controls.

[alohadoug]

Thanks for the fix.

Costume or not, it can be a lot of fun.... something about blasting away with a Tommy gun....
Since I can't edit it...

12872

[fatdog]

Has anyone tried a Tavor with the 9mm conversion?

Mine works fine, seems to run ok, of course uses 9mm AR magazines, switching back and forth with the Tavor 5.56 components is not what I consider simple and quick (not like just changing the upper and putting in the magwell block is for an AR)

I have only fired it with hardball loads, no idea if JHP ammo presents an issue, accuracy is not something I have really tried to seriously measure yet but it zero'ed pretty quickly and gave me a solid 2" group at 20 yards with my 124gr handloads using a 2moa red dot.

I bought the conversion for a range toy, and not a serious use platform in my case. There may be issues with JHP ammo, accuracy, reliability, that I am not aware of.

[feudist]

What do you think of the Beretta CX4 carbine for PCC?

[GJM]

To have fun shooting PCC, bring whatever. To be competitive, you want a carbine that is soft shooting, red dot sighted, easy to reload fast, with a good trigger, that holds +/- 40 rounds.

[Edwin]

What do you think of the Beretta CX4 carbine for PCC?

I use one and it's fun. It's great for me because I run a 92 normally and the reloads are quick because it's identical to reloading a pistol unlike a long gun. But being a blow back, it's going to feel like there is more recoil.

[GJM]

It has taken me a bit of effort to get used to the Sig MPX. Initially, I shot it like a blow back AR9, and it cycled like a blow back AR9. Then I realized, at least out to 25 yards, I can use one sight picture and two presses to get follow-up shots under .20. This is shooting steel at 20 something yards -- when I do my part, it is five hits under 1.50 from the extended ready:


https://youtu.be/mJ0VCcMgE1s

[feudist]

I use one and it's fun. It's great for me because I run a 92 normally and the reloads are quick because it's identical to reloading a pistol unlike a long gun. But being a blow back, it's going to feel like there is more recoil.

Wanting a PCC and as a lefty these always appealed to me.

Looking for an excuse to by one...

[ranger]

I built a PSA 9mm AR a couple of years ago so I could shoot steel in the pistol bats - it is a lot of fun to shoot. I have used it at the local outlaw PCC matches before PCC was official.

One of my shooting buddies let me shoot his SIG MPX SBR and I had to have one. I bought a SIG MPX pistol and I am waiting on my SBR "stamp". I plan on using a SIG factory folding skeleton stock when I want the folding stock capability and I plan on using one of the AR buffer tube adapters for an AR stock when I want more of a "fixed" stock. I have a railway Cmore on the MPX. I would have no problem using the SIG MPX in an HD role as soon as I can officially SBR it.

[ranger]

Also, I have been picking up MPX Gen 1 mags on sale - I posted a link on "holiday deals" thread. MIDWAY has SIG mags on sale today too.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

Mine works fine, seems to run ok, of course uses 9mm AR magazines, switching back and forth with the Tavor 5.56 components is not what I consider simple and quick (not like just changing the upper and putting in the magwell block is for an AR)

I have only fired it with hardball loads, no idea if JHP ammo presents an issue, accuracy is not something I have really tried to seriously measure yet but it zero'ed pretty quickly and gave me a solid 2" group at 20 yards with my 124gr handloads using a 2moa red dot.

I bought the conversion for a range toy, and not a serious use platform in my case. There may be issues with JHP ammo, accuracy, reliability, that I am not aware of.

How is the seating of a magazine loaded to capacity on a closed bolt? With my ar, it can be done but with a lot of effort, and can't be done consistently. On a start that requires the gun be unloaded, I start with locking the bolt to the rear and then insert the magazine. It takes a split second to do it that way but works 100% of the time.

[Malamute]

Since I can't edit it...

12872

For some reason Thompsons always make me think of the SS officer scene in Fury now.

[GJM]

How is the seating of a magazine loaded to capacity on a closed bolt? With my ar, it can be done but with a lot of effort, and can't be done consistently. On a start that requires the gun be unloaded, I start with locking the bolt to the rear and then insert the magazine. It takes a split second to do it that way but works 100% of the time.


Needs to be able to be loaded without locking the slide back to be time competitive.

[SeriousStudent]

I've been jonesing for a CZ Scorpion Evo 3 for a few months now...


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I have one, and have submitted a Form 1 for it. I've got a Silencerco Omega 9K on the way for it as well.

I bought it for funsies, and for the kids to knock down steel plates with. It is a great deal of fun.

[H&KFanNC]

I'm very jealous!

I'm looking at leaving it carbine length for a bit but will suppress it. Haven't decided on a supressor yet. Did you have to buy a thread adapter or are the threads "normal"?


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[SeriousStudent]

I bought the pistol version, rather than the carbine. I obtained a 922r kit, so when I fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinally get my stamp back, I'll just add the stock and unscrew the flash hider. The can goes right on.

The factory trigger makes an M&P look nice. About 9 pounds and very gritty. But with some judicious work, you can get it to about 5.5 and pretty smooth.

I also sawed off that weird flare at the base of the pistol grip, that was just obnoxious. An Aimpoint Micro works great on it as well. The yard apes are quite eager to see it in its final form, as am I.

[El Cid]

Bill Wilson is making up a Beretta mag AR9 for me to try, and I look forward to ringing that out. I expect typical Wilson quality, and fast reloads using the tapered MecGar 92 mags. An issue is there are OEM 30 round mags, but no extensions available for those.



Very anxious to hear how you like it! I've been holding out hope for the LWRC SMG45 as an SBR but it's still vapor ware. I keep getting tempted to order a Wilson AR9 for Glock mags. I am heavily invested in Glocks and have plenty of mags. Have there been other reports of how they function?

[GJM]

Very anxious to hear how you like it! I've been holding out hope for the LWRC SMG45 as an SBR but it's still vapor ware. I keep getting tempted to order a Wilson AR9 for Glock mags. I am heavily invested in Glocks and have plenty of mags. Have there been other reports of how they function?

I know Bill is very fond of the Beretta magazine model, and says they are extremely reliable.

[TAZ]

Ive been thinking about the whole PCC thing, especially with the availability of Glock mag AR lower. Seems like a good combo, since my EDC is a G19. Id be able to use my Magpul 21 rd mags as double duty. As mentioned above, by someone, I too often take a 556 carbine to the range and it mostly ends up sitting in the car. Between pistol work, watching the kiddo and wife on occasion the carbine gets neglected, especially since both the wife and son shy away from 556. A nice soft shooting PCC might be fun for all, so it would get used. Any opinons on the Glock mag AR builds?

WRT to defensive use, not sure why people would shy away from using a PCC for defense. Would 556 be better from a ballistics POV; probably. But Id rather have someone use something they train with regularly than try to go at it with some thing they dont. Given the choice of a 9mm handgun or a 9mm carbine I'd venture that the PCC is more accurate and easier to follow up shots. There is still the issue of size and maneuvering in tight spaces for those without the SBR stamp. What doesnt have trade offs??

[nalesq]

A nice soft shooting PCC might be fun for all, so it would get used. Any opinons on the Glock mag AR builds??

While 9mm is obviously less noisy and blasty than 5.56mm, it actually recoils slightly more in an AR, all else being equal. The recoil impulse is also "clunkier," probably due to the blowback operation. So while the PCC has a lot going for it for training (and fun) purposes, I would not say that softer shooting over gas operated 5.56mm is one of the benefits.

[nalesq]

Duplication error; please delete

[GJM]

While 9mm is obviously less noisy and blasty than 5.56mm, it actually recoils slightly more in an AR, all else being equal. The recoil impulse is also "clunkier," probably due to the blowback operation. So while the PCC has a lot going for it, I would not say that softer shooting over gas operated 5.56mm is one of the benefits.

Have you shot a MPX, which is a gas system, not blowback?

[nalesq]

Have you shot a MPX, which is a gas system, not blowback?

Not yet, but I almost don't want to, because I'm afraid I'll end up with a bad case of the wantsies.

[GJM]

The blowback AR9 carbines, as you know, recoil pretty much directly related to power factor of the ammo being shot. With the gas system, the MPX is very different, and shoots extremely soft with a wide range of ammo. If you Google Taran Butler and the MPX, you will see where he says the MPX has 50 percent of the recoil of a top of the line blowback AR9.

[fatdog]

How is the seating of a magazine loaded to capacity on a closed bolt?

It seats fine on mine. All my 9mm AR magazines are C-products variants, they seem to have a little space/slack when fully loaded. Of course with a bullpup doing a speedload is not an easy thing with any mag.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

It seats fine on mine. All my 9mm AR magazines are C-products variants, they seem to have a little space/slack when fully loaded. Of course with a bullpup doing a speedload is not an easy thing with any mag.

Thanks, interesting I have a mixture of Colt, IWI, and PSA magazines.

[nalesq]

The blowback AR9 carbines, as you know, recoil pretty much directly related to power factor of the ammo being shot. With the gas system, the MPX is very different, and shoots extremely soft with a wide range of ammo. If you Google Taran Butler and the MPX, you will see where he says the MPX has 50 percent of the recoil of a top of the line blowback AR9.

Drat, I really hope I don't agree it's that much better, if I ever happen to shoot one. I'm already so heavily invested in the Colt 9mm AR at this point in my PCC life.

[45dotACP]

Do you really need a huge recoil reduction for a rifle in 9 sillymeter?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Grey]

Love the discussion. GJM, are you converting your new Sp5k to a sbr to run it in some pcc matches? Really want to get a pcc this year... so many toys so little money.

[GJM]

Do you really need a huge recoil reduction for a rifle in 9 sillymeter?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Depends on what you are doing with it. For USPSA, I want the softest shooting PCC that is reliable and ergonomic. That is a want as opposed to need.


Love the discussion. GJM, are you converting your new Sp5k to a sbr to run it in some pcc matches? Really want to get a pcc this year... so many toys so little money.

I am going to see what Talionis figures out first.

[TAZ]

Do you really need a huge recoil reduction for a rifle in 9 sillymeter?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Can't speak for everyone, but for me: need - not so much. Want - hell yes. Why wouldn't you want a feature that makes something easier to shoot? Unless the trade offs are huge bring as much recoil and muzzle rise reduction as possible.

[45dotACP]

So will there be a Roland special PCC rifle coming up?

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[TAZ]

So will there be a Roland special PCC rifle coming up?

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Probably. Where there is a will and a dremel there is a way.

[ranger]

Not yet, but I almost don't want to, because I'm afraid I'll end up with a bad case of the wantsies.

That is how I ended up with my MPX - my shooting buddy is like a vice dealer - wife says I need to quit hanging out with him!

[MistWolf]

The blowback AR9 carbines, as you know, recoil pretty much directly related to power factor of the ammo being shot. With the gas system, the MPX is very different, and shoots extremely soft with a wide range of ammo. If you Google Taran Butler and the MPX, you will see where he says the MPX has 50 percent of the recoil of a top of the line blowback AR9.

Action type does not add or subtract recoil energy. It can only change how it feels by altering the attack, sustain and decay of the recoil impulse

[JHC]

To have fun shooting PCC, bring whatever. To be competitive, you want a carbine that is soft shooting, red dot sighted, easy to reload fast, with a good trigger, that holds +/- 40 rounds.

Question to any and all; since we have much heavier recoiling single action pistols with great triggers, why is it a challenge to have a decent and durable AR trigger on a 6 lb 9mm carbine?

[ranger]

I know a knock on the SIG MPX for PCC is high $$$ magazines. Still seeing these Gen 1s on sale for three for $60!

http://gunmagwarehouse.com/sig-mpx-gmw-holiday-kit-triple-mag-pouch-with-3-30-round-magazines.html

[GJM]

I had a great practice session with the MPX yesterday, and was really looking forward to the match today. Pretty darn cold this morning, but still fine shooting weather.

Stage one, had a bunch of malfunctions, which resulted in the MPX becoming one shot, work the charging handle, and continue. It obviously ruined the stage but more importantly, was the first lick of trouble I have had since the MPX passed its initial break in. I borrowed some oil, lubed it up wet, and had a thought the cold combined with a dry bolt was the culprit. The good news was it ran fine the rest of the match. One other stage I made a rookie mistake related to bore offset. I was tight around a barricade, rolled the gun left, but didn't realize I had moved the dot but not the barrel. I clipped the side of the barricade and managed two mikes/no shoots due to the luck of the deviation through the intermediate barrier. So in overall match placement, on stages I finished 3, 4, 4, 32 and 34. But for the stoppages and bore offset, it would have been pretty good. Here are a few stages, starting with the second string of a classifier that involved support side shooting with the PCC.


https://youtu.be/JCBSpjER3mE


https://youtu.be/UOInW2J6SlU


https://youtu.be/rO6wT9GxVC0

[Edwin]

The MPX really likes to run wet. We have found that if you don't lube it a lot right before a match, you may run into issues.

[GJM]

The MPX really likes to run wet. We have found that if you don't lube it a lot right before a match, you may run into issues.

What PM is recommended on the MPX beyond running a bore snake through, and lubing the bolt assembly?

[feudist]

You were blazing those pairs.
What kind of splits are you getting with that SIG?

[GJM]

Don't know at match. Running bill drills at 25 yards Friday, all A hits, I had splits in the .17-.22 range.

PCC seems to be growing by the week. At a two day match in Utah next month, that YVK and I are going to, as of now there are 40 PCC shooters signed up and less than 20 in Production.

[Edwin]

What PM is recommended on the MPX beyond running a bore snake through, and lubing the bolt assembly?

I'm honestly not sure. I haven't read the manual and we don't have many rounds through these guns (less than 5k). All the info I've been posting is what we've learned so far as a group since there are like 5 of us running an MPX (myself excluded, I have a CX4).

[GJM]

I'm honestly not sure. I haven't read the manual and we don't have many rounds through these guns (less than 5k). All the info I've been posting is what we've learned so far as a group since there are like 5 of us running an MPX (myself excluded, I have a CX4).

Talking to a buddy who shoots an MPX in USPSA, it is bore snake, and disassemble/clean/lube bolt assembly for regular PM.

[GJM]

Things went much better Sunday at the match in Vegas. The MPX ran, making me think insufficient lube was the problem Saturday. I finished at 89.81 percent of the overall match winner. No mike's, and only one D for the match. Main opportunities better speed, a few less C's, and fewer make-up steel shots on stars and polish plate racks. Regular plate racks I was one for one on, so I need to drag out a star and do some practice.

This is typical of the stages at the match.


https://youtu.be/D3tmtvZ63Y4

This was an interesting standards stage that involved shooting from kneeling and prone. Pretty good, other than one instance of trigger freeze from kneeling. Prone worked out well.


https://youtu.be/8Cv6xTQs0zc

This was the classifier stage. But for a slightly fumbled reload, pretty good.


https://youtu.be/Mao4ccYIyO4

Post match, spent last night working reloads, different placement of my lead pouch, and using my index finger to help guide the mag in. Building speed.


https://youtu.be/vt8yVvQdywI

Finally, as my buddy is using the circle dot of the Romeo 4 with great success on his MPX, I got one. Messsing with mounting it, I dropped it onto a tile floor, and that little bit of drop cracked the rear lens. Will contact Sig today, but so far durability seems suspect.

[Montesf1030]

Pic of my PCC 9mm collection !!! Love the all .... But by far the my custom build AR 9 pistol is such a versatile firearm ... http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170109/efce04b209cdd18dd91a6c317064c809.jpg


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[CSW]

I built this one just before the Newtown incident. It's a DDLES dedicated 9mm lower with a RRA A2 upper.
The barrel and fore-end are YHM.

It is amazingly accurate, runs on Colt stick mags, and digests any type of ammo. Fun factor, 110%.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/682422/22920671/413076285.jpg
It'll hold super tight groups to about 75 yards, then opens up.
The old school quad rail is a bit dated compared to some of today's awesome fore-ends, but I don't have the heart to change a thing on it and effect the accuracy one bit.
Think it'd be a hoot to run at a match, but the club I belong to only runs pistol.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/682422/22920671/413076286.jpg

[Dagga Boy]

I find this a bit funny. I remember just over a decade ago a pretty smart guy named Ken Hackathorn and I were laughing on a range as Ken declared in ten years someone is going to figure out that a super compact short barreled 9mm carbines fired from the shoulder are really easy to shoot fast and accurately and great for things like indoor distance shooting.......;).

Who knows, maybe I can knock the rust off the old MP-5 skills. So much of this is funny. I don't want an MP-5 for a rifle problem, but we did the Lord's work in typical indoor room encounters. For across a residential bedroom, we found they worked wonderfully.

[jeep45238]

I find this a bit funny. I remember just over a decade ago a pretty smart guy named Ken Hackathorn and I were laughing on a range as Ken declared in ten years someone is going to figure out that a super compact short barreled 9mm carbines fired from the shoulder are really easy to shoot fast and accurately and great for things like indoor distance shooting.......;).

Who knows, maybe I can knock the rust off the old MP-5 skills. So much of this is funny. I don't want an MP-5 for a rifle problem, but we did the Lord's work in typical indoor room encounters. For across a residential bedroom, we found they worked wonderfully.


Yeah....thinking back to my experience with the 9mm 1st gen Sub2000, it had it's flaws, but the concept has a lot of potential. If the gas-fed Sig proves itself long term, I think a SBR version would be really, really hard to beat.

[Dagga Boy]

I m not a bit disappointed that I didn't buy some cheap AUG 9mm conversion kits when I could have gotten them cheap.

[GJM]

It is kind of like why you don't sell your skinny or fat ties, wait a while and they will come back into style.

[MSparks909]

What MOA dot size do you guys prefer for PCC? Geared towards competition first. I was thinking around a 6 MOA dot? Thinking of picking up a PCC since the PCC in USPSA is just now gaining steam in my area.

Torn between the MPX and Wilson AR9. I have tons of Beretta and Glock magazines (although I only have 4 Glock 33rd mags and 0 Beretta 30 round mags) so there's some appeal to the AR9 there. I'm a little nervous about Sig's quality since they're on Gen 2 of the MPX now and just recalled the entire MCX line. I'm also a little bit of a trigger whore and would want to upgrade immediately to a Geissele for the MPX. Only thing is Geissele hasn't released their MPX specific trigger yet.

I'm in no rush but these are the 2 most promising options so far. It'll probably be suppressed for fun later down the road but the main purpose would be for competition, range use and finally home defense (in that order).

[GJM]

I have been using a C-More Railway with a 6 mos dot. On other ends of the spectrum, I have two friends M/GM level, that go to opposite ends of the spectrum. One uses an MRO with a 2ish dot and the other a Romeo 4 with the Eotech style 65 moa circle around a smaller center dot.

The MPX is the obvious choice now for USPSA, and shoots really soft. I should be testing a Wilson soon.

[Mr_White]

PCC is one of those things that I just don't have room for in my life but I wish I did because it sure looks fun.

It's good to hear what a great time GJM is having with it and how much it is driving concrete technical improvement for him. He has been shooting long guns for a long time, but with shooting them in USPSA now, he is on fire in terms of scrutinizing all aspects of performance and improving it, in ways that being a shooter serious about long guns never really demanded, but competing against others certainly does.

[P.E. Kelley]

I wouldn't overlook the offering from Lone Wolf.

https://youtu.be/XlqUkg3kTK0

[Dave Williams]

Pretty slick LW set up.

[Gadfly]

I cleared a lot of rooms in my day. Covered a lot of dope and alien buy outs from the front seat of a car too. An MP5 size gun with the stock collapsed was the perfect gun for sitting behind the wheel with the gun slung in front. Easy to deploy stock upon exiting vehicle. And 8" 9mm was enough gun for parking lot distance work (car length or two).

For clearing rooms in big houses or trailer parks. It was easy to work corners, closets, attics, etc...

I agree, rifle work requires a rifle. Rural, longer distances. Etc... but for 90% of the stuff I have done, a PCC like the MP5 was perfect. Using a 11.5" M4 now. Even stock collapsed, its big enough to just not work great while seated in the drivers seat. The MPX has a lot of appeal if the actually work. I got to shoot one and was impressed....


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[SeriousStudent]

I cleared a lot of rooms in my day. Covered a lot of dope and alien buy outs from the front seat of a car too. An MP5 size gun with the stock collapsed was the perfect gun for sitting behind the wheel with the gun slung in front. Easy to deploy stock upon exiting vehicle. And 8" 9mm was enough gun for parking lot distance work (car length or two).

For clearing rooms in big houses or trailer parks. It was easy to work corners, closets, attics, etc...

I agree, rifle work requires a rifle. Rural, longer distances. Etc... but for 90% of the stuff I have done, a PCC like the MP5 was perfect. Using a 11.5" M4 now. Even stock collapsed, its big enough to just not work great while seated in the drivers seat. The MPX has a lot of appeal if the actually work. I got to shoot one and was impressed....


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One of the big reasons I'm building a suppressed CZ Scorpion 9mm SBR with the folding stock. Very easy to maneuver.

[GJM]

PCC is one of those things that I just don't have room for in my life but I wish I did because it sure looks fun.

It's good to hear what a great time GJM is having with it and how much it is driving concrete technical improvement for him. He has been shooting long guns for a long time, but with shooting them in USPSA now, he is on fire in terms of scrutinizing all aspects of performance and improving it, in ways that being a shooter serious about long guns never really demanded, but competing against others certainly does.

The pistol caliber part of the carbine allows me to practice in pistol bays, allowing the carbine to integrate into my regular pistol practice. With a 5.56 AR, despite good intentions, I infrequently ended my pistol practice early, to go to rifle bays and rifle distances with steel.

By Kyle Lamb and similar standards, I could shoot a carbine pretty well, even without a whole lot of practice. However, after six weeks of competition driven, intensive shooting of the PCC, my skills are at a whole different place. I also understand the metrics for each part of my PCC skills, including shot one, splits, transitions and reloads. Taking reloads for example, dry fire, slo mo video, analysis, discussion with other competitors, and more dry fire practice has allowed a technique that has driven my reloads into the 1.4-1.5 range. I can now shoot six shot Bill drills at 25 yards, with all A's well under 2.0 seconds. Never would have happened without competition. No idea whether that means anything for fighting, but it sure is important to my USPSA game, and that is enough motivation to keep pushing.

On the equipment front, I put my second MPX into service today. It ran great from shot one, and continued through the whole session. I am using a Romeo 4M as an optic on it, and I am thrilled with the speed potential of the Eotech style 65 moa ring around the center dot. Look forward to running it under match conditions this weekend.

[John Hearne]

I find this a bit funny. I remember just over a decade ago a pretty smart guy named Ken Hackathorn and I were laughing on a range as Ken declared in ten years someone is going to figure out that a super compact short barreled 9mm carbines fired from the shoulder are really easy to shoot fast and accurately and great for things like indoor distance shooting.......;).

Amen. I'm just glad that everyone has finally caught up with what I've been doing since 2005. John Hearne - Trend Setter. Who'd have thought it.....

[ranger]

My stamp came in for my MPX SBR. Got the SIG folding stock and an AR buffer tube system ready. C more railway with 6MOA dot. Picked up mags on sale during the Holidays. Can't wait to start shooting it. At engraver now - hope to pick up next weekend.

[GJM]

New Nordic PCC with interchangeable mag feature:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BstPsLppW48&sns=em

[rob_s]

New Nordic PCC with interchangeable mag feature:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BstPsLppW48&sns=em

Interesting.

You may have mentioned this previously, but what seems to be the prevailing wisdom on angled pistol-style mags/wells vs the straight in style subgun mags/wells? or, for that matter, the MP5/MPX-type with banana mags. Specifically as relates to reload speed or ease.

[rob_s]

you changed your opinion?

Not in the slightest.

[ranger]

Interesting.

You may have mentioned this previously, but what seems to be the prevailing wisdom on angled pistol-style mags/wells vs the straight in style subgun mags/wells? or, for that matter, the MP5/MPX-type with banana mags. Specifically as relates to reload speed or ease.

Not a pro, but biggest issue for me so far is the "length" of the PCC 30 round mags versus years of practice with a 30 round AR mag. I went through my mag pouches and found that with some minor screw tightening that my "old Limited class" Safariland single stack Glock 21 mag pouches worked very well for the "Colt" style 9mm mags for my PSA AR9. Trying to get my local kydex guy to make me some MPX mag holders.

[rob_s]

Not a pro, but biggest issue for me so far is the "length" of the PCC 30 round mags versus years of practice with a 30 round AR mag. I went through my mag pouches and found that with some minor screw tightening that my "old Limited class" Safariland single stack Glock 21 mag pouches worked very well for the "Colt" style 9mm mags for my PSA AR9. Trying to get my local kydex guy to make me some MPX mag holders.

My interest is more in the magwells on the guns relative to speed or ease of reloads. it appears that the options are angled back for a pistol mag, straight up and down for a colt-style mag, or angled front for a MPX/MP5 style mag.

[Edwin]

For all your Nazi reenacting PCC needs. https://www.instagram.com/p/BPVUkEfAWD9/

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[GJM]

Interesting.

You may have mentioned this previously, but what seems to be the prevailing wisdom on angled pistol-style mags/wells vs the straight in style subgun mags/wells? or, for that matter, the MP5/MPX-type with banana mags. Specifically as relates to reload speed or ease.

Not sure it is settled science yet.

My JP GMR-13 is hard to reload fast, because it has a flat stiff mag release, the top of a Glock mag is fairly blunt, and the JP magwell is more a modified 5.56 magwell than a Glock specific magwell.

Bill Wilson has told me the Beretta 92 variant AR9 Wilson makes, is faster to reload with a magazine specific magwell and the. Ore tapered B92 MecGar mags.

The MPX has a more tapered magwell than the JP, a better mag release, and seems better. I am down to 1.4 live fire for reloads, but that is warmed up, not on demand, and .3 or .4 better than the JP.

I have another AR9 in the works that takes Glock mags, is a side charger and has a better magwell than the JP. Optimistic but no data yet.

[GJM]

My #2 MPX ran like a top from Friday, when I shot it for the first time, that practice session, two matches, most of my practice today, and then started malfunctioning, by not fully going into battery. Estimating 800 rounds. I think it got dry and needs lube. These carbines like to run wet.

[GJM]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/16/new-gmr-15-9-mm-carbine-jp-enterprises/

New JP model, the GMR-15

[nalesq]

What kind of belt mounted magazine carriers are people using? I see that HSGI makes a taco that would work, but I'm thinking I want a Kydex mag carrier.

[GJM]

What kind of belt mounted magazine carriers are people using? I see that HSGI makes a taco that would work, but I'm thinking I want a Kydex mag carrier.

For what magazines?

[nalesq]

For what magazines?

Colt 9mm AR.

[GJM]

I use the MPX and Glock mags, and haven't paid much attention to what the Colt mag shooters are using. Taco for a long pistol would work, but I would check the Enos sub forum.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

I run a Colt and use HSG pistol taco's mounted on Blade-Tech Tec-loks with there molle-loks. I've tried different set ups and always come back to the tacos. With their design they are more forgiving on reloads because they flex so to speak due too the 550 cord.

http://shop.blade-tech.com/product_info.php?cPath=81_124&products_id=479#.WIC2Plz-XIU

http://shop.blade-tech.com/product_info.php?cPath=81_124&products_id=131#.WIC19Fz-XIU

[nalesq]

I know the HSGI tacos would've been fine, but wanting something a little slicker and perhaps a bit less tactical looking (the latter of which may be an absurd goal, given that they're for an SBR'd Colt SMG-looking thing), I ended up ordering a couple of these instead:

http://www.weare-nerd.com/shop/magazine-mausoleum

[Clusterfrack]

I like Wilderness Tactical pouches.
http://www.thewilderness.com/magazine-speedloader-and-ammo-carriers/subgun-mag-pouch/

[D.O.A.F.S.]

I know the HSGI tacos would've been fine, but wanting something a little slicker and perhaps a bit less tactical looking (the latter of which may be an absurd goal, given that they're for an SBR'd Colt SMG-looking thing), I ended up ordering a couple of these instead:

http://www.weare-nerd.com/shop/magazine-mausoleum

What I found with other carriers I've tried, that with the length of the magazines and plastic there's no give. With that said you must move the mag straight up the depth the mag sits in the carrier, not very easy to do smooth and fast. With the taco's and 550 cord you have the ability to come out of the pouch with a little bit of an angle "more natural then straight out". For me at 5'6" after a practice session with a bunch of reloads using plastic carriers my elbow would actually be sore due to the stress and load put on the joint. That's just me though, your mileage may vary.

[nalesq]

What I found with other carriers I've tried, that with the length of the magazines and plastic there's no give. With that said you must move the mag straight up the depth the mag sits in the carrier, not very easy to do smooth and fast. With the taco's and 550 cord you have the ability to come out of the pouch with a little bit of an angle "more natural then straight out". For me at 5'6" after a practice session with a bunch of reloads using plastic carriers my elbow would actually be sore due to the stress and load put on the joint. That's just me though, your mileage may vary.

Yeah, I agree that could very well be a problem. Oh, well - I guess I will find out for myself soon!

[rob_s]

angle the mags on the belt.

I found the same issue when using a 9mm AR with Colt-style mags trying to carry them vertically, or 90-degrees to the belt. Rotate the pouch and move forward of centerline and there's less issue.

No idea of that location/angle is legal in USPSA PCC though, now that I think about it.

[D.O.A.F.S.]

angle the mags on the belt.

I found the same issue when using a 9mm AR with Colt-style mags trying to carry them vertically, or 90-degrees to the belt. Rotate the pouch and move forward of centerline and there's less issue.

No idea of that location/angle is legal in USPSA PCC though, now that I think about it.

No restriction on location on the belt.

[ranger]

For Colt style 9mm mags I am using my old Safariland G21 mag pouches

[rd62]

I'm in the process of building a Quarter Circle 10 9mm AR pistol using one of their Glock Small Frame lowers to utilize the plethora of 9mm Glock mags I already have.

I need to pickup a buffer and spring to complete the lower and wondered if the collective had any suggestions as this is my first 9mm AR? I'm leaning toward the one Slash at Heavy Buffers makes.

[SeriousStudent]

You'll want a Colt 9mm buffer, and a Colt 9mm Receiver Extension Spacer.

Brownell's is currently out of both. I use both of those in mine, and they work very well - especially with the suppressed subsonic ammo, if that is your goal.

[rd62]

You'll want a Colt 9mm buffer, and a Colt 9mm Receiver Extension Spacer.

Brownell's is currently out of both. I use both of those in mine, and they work very well - especially with the suppressed subsonic ammo, if that is your goal.

Thanks. Yours is a Quarter Circle 10?

[SeriousStudent]

Mine is a New Frontier, that was rebranded for these folks: http://www.runnerrunnerguns.com/product_p/ffl-rrg-thor-billet-w.htm

A buddy has a Quarter Circle 10. We swapped out my buffer, spacer and spring for his. He was having constant malfunctions using a H2 buffer, regardless of magazines or ammo.

I dropped my spring, spacer and buffer into his, and he was able to run with no malfunctions. Magazines included the factory Glock 33-rounders, as well as the ETS and Magpul mags. Ammo was Speer 147-grain subsonics, along with Winchester 124-grain NATO, as as IMI 158-grain subsonics.

Hope that helps.

[mmc45414]

You'll want a Colt 9mm Receiver Extension Spacer.

As an expedient for the spacer you can drop a stack of quarters in the tube, I think the magic number is five. I keep meaning to buy the spacer but the thing keeps running, I had forgotten all about it.


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[DpdG]

Mine is a New Frontier, that was rebranded for these folks: http://www.runnerrunnerguns.com/product_p/ffl-rrg-thor-billet-w.htm

A buddy has a Quarter Circle 10. We swapped out my buffer, spacer and spring for his. He was having constant malfunctions using a H2 buffer, regardless of magazines or ammo.

I dropped my spring, spacer and buffer into his, and he was able to run with no malfunctions. Magazines included the factory Glock 33-rounders, as well as the ETS and Magpul mags. Ammo was Speer 147-grain subsonics, along with Winchester 124-grain NATO, as as IMI 158-grain subsonics.

Hope that helps.


I also have a NFA/Runner runner complete lower, with a complete PSA upper. I originally used the included CMMG 9mm buffer (5.3oz), spring, and spacer, which worked. Having said that, it ejected violently (brass went 20+ feet) and you could feel and hear the buffer slamming into the spacer/buffer tube. I ended up getting an extended heavy buffer from Macon Armory made up. For some reason 7.8 ounce stands out in my mind, but it's an adjustable weight using lead shot. The new buffer, using the original spring without a spacer, greatly decreased the violence of ejection, although it is still very energetic.

-G

[SeriousStudent]

Interesting, thank you for the info. I'll try and that pass it onto my friend as well.

I've got a Griffin Optimus in the NFA pipeline for mine. It's going to be a dedicated can for that firearm. I've got a Silencerco Omega 9K in process for my CZ Scorpion.

[fishing]

I'm in the process of building a Quarter Circle 10 9mm AR pistol using one of their Glock Small Frame lowers to utilize the plethora of 9mm Glock mags I already have.

I need to pickup a buffer and spring to complete the lower and wondered if the collective had any suggestions as this is my first 9mm AR? I'm leaning toward the one Slash at Heavy Buffers makes.



You'll want a Colt 9mm buffer, and a Colt 9mm Receiver Extension Spacer.

Brownell's is currently out of both. I use both of those in mine, and they work very well - especially with the suppressed subsonic ammo, if that is your goal.




Overly verbose and detailed replying warning :).

rd62 -

I'll offer my $0.02 on this, an opinion that differs slightly from SeriousStudent's (I'm not discounting his experience and advice completely as he stated it works well, but I do not believe it to be the optimal setup based on my experiences).

I've been 9MM PCC crazy for a few years now, partially because they are quite fun IMO and also because I enjoy having different, quirky and unique stuff (I guess I am hipsterish in that way!).

I will refer to blowback action, AR type 9MM PCCs as the “AR9”, although it may not be the completely correct nomenclature.

At this point, I’ve been building AR9s for over 5 years. Much of what I know about getting them running right is based on empirical learning and costly trial/error. It was rather annoying to build one a while back due to the lack of component manufacturers, but its great to see that for the past year or two PCCs have really taken off and there are many options available.

Related to your question -


Much as with the 5.56 AR, I believe having as heavy a bolt/buffer as possible before going overboard and negatively affecting cycling is the proper way to go. Lightening recip mass on a comp gun with a locked bolt can work well when tuned properly, but is not the way to go for straight blowback.

I have tried but not objectively found any benefit to reciprocating mass inside the buffer for an AR9 - either solid or reciprocating are fine with me. I think reciprocation is important for a locked breech design as found in the AR15 though - and I have not found any reason to pursue one of the various hydraulic buffers on the market for the AR9.

According to such reliable sources as the internet, optimal bolt weight for a straight blowback 9MM is 1.7#. For reference a closed bolt semi, full size Uzi bolt weighs ~23 ounces. I treat the combined weight of the AR9 bolt and buffer as one, so at a minimum the two together should have a mass of 1.5# and function is 100% at the current combined setup I run in my AR9s which is ~26.5 ounces (close to 1.7#).

Bolt travel distance is of paramount importance to the proper functioning of the AR9. Bolt length is limited by the length of the upper receiver, so the shorter length of travel must be made up by the combination of the buffer tube, buffer, spring and any spacers used.

An essential “test” after building an AR9 but before firing is what I’ll term a “travel distance check”. Assemble the gun, then load an empty mag and lock the bolt back. Then while looking through the ejection port, pull the charging handle back so that the bolt goes back as far as possible and take note of how far this is from the bolt stop lever in the lower. If not already, add spacers or change buffer/spring so that the distance between bolt and bolt stop lever is less than ~3/8th of an inch.

Test fire with to ensure gun is running reliably. Add a quarter if the gun runs reliably, if not remove one and check again. I’ve ended up at just ~¼ inch for my guns. There is some variation in spring/buffer tube/buffer/spacer/lower combos being used so this tweaking ensures that the bolt travels rearwards during cycling “just enough” before coming to a stop and bouncing back due to spring action. Excessive rearward travel means higher bolt speed and cycling issues as well as battering of the bolt stop. I’ve broken a number of bolt stops and ruined an upper before figuring this out.

Quarters make good spacers - simply drop them into the buffer tube being sure that they lie flat when they reach the rear end of the tube. I do not know enough about spring dynamics/behavior in the buffer tube to know of the effects of taking up space this way (compressing the entire spring) versus the use of some of the commercially available spacers that take up space within the spring while only slightly affecting spring length. I wish I could ask some of the folks at Geissele or KAC etc to see if they would have enginerdinging thoughts on this.

Buffer spring choice itself does not seem to have huge effect on AR9 function, so long as the spring/bolt/spacer combo used passes the “travel distance check” mentioned above. My understanding is that spring strength has negligible impact on the rearward portion of the operating cycle of a blowback gun but is more important on the forward portion of the cycle (feeding). Due to this, I use AR10 Carbine length buffer springs - they cost the same and have a higher spring rate than AR15 carbine springs.

The reviews for the colt buffer (I’ve never used one) seem to indicate that it is on the lighter end, and may not be as long as optimal. Fuck paying $35 for a buffer without tungsten in it.

My recommendation to you would be to get an AR10 carbine length buffer spring, and either of these two buffers depending on the weight of whatever bolt you are using. Both happen to be reciprocating and are long enough to need minimal # of quarters

https://www.kakindustry.com/ar15-9mm-buffer-long - 8 OZ and $32.
https://www.kakindustry.com/ar15-9mm-buffer-long-heavy - 10 OZ and $50.



Now the below which may be useful in the broader context of the thread -


AR9s can be very finicky to get running 100%, chances of consistent reliable function are better with high-quality factory built complete guns as well as guns built using known good/common mfg components for critical items (bolt/barrel/lower etc).

For the purposes of the type of competition described in this thread, the current MPX is the best 9MM PCC IMO. I am not completely satisfied with the two I own though - and WAS/AM FUCKING PISSED about the fiasco that was my first gen MPX and the ongoing issue of the caliber conversion kits etc. (Shame on me for being an early adopter as well as believing anything info SIG put out, but thats a separate thread).

MP5 type guns have their merits but are mostly just historically interesting to me at this point. CZ Scorp is perfectly fine but doesnt rustle my jimmies in any special way.

AR9s run dirty as hell - some barrels are cut with quite generous chambers such that even when tuned right, brass will come out sooty as hell.

QC10 makes the best "AR9" lowers currently IMO/IME due to them (and DDLES by extension) making the original dedicated form factor magwell AR9 lowers, retaining LRBHO etc etc. I’ve been very happy with mine in terms of quality, function, looks, fit and finish as well as CS.

Side charging uppers are especially great on AR9s - I mostly use the Gibbz type upper on my AR9 builds (my understanding is Gibbz mfgs the uppers and sells them as well as supplies them for others to brand/sell which is good as I dislike the GIbbz logo on them). Gas blowback to face is noticeably reduced using one one when I run suppressed.

Chamber face geometry, ejector tuning and magazines are critical to reliable cycling of AR9s - majority of related issues are from folks who have built them without making sure these components play nice with eachother.

AR9 recoil impulse is unpleasantly harsh, and they have more felt recoil force than your average 5.56 AR, but in the grand scheme of things it’s not bad by any means.

AR9s are harsh on components especially when not built optimally, fun as hell to occasionally run a magwell adapter on one of my FA lowers but I genuinely have concerns about stressing/fatiguing the lower with overuse.

I believe that the creation of the AR9 was an afterthought that happened to work out OK - I would love to have a full understanding of the circumstances of the genesis and development of the gun back at Colt back in the 80’s.

I don’t really see the utility of AR15 9MM magwell adapters nowadays, with the good dedicated lower options currently available other than use in a full auto lower. I suppose one could save some money going that route vs. dedicated lower but it seems like a hassle so for the gent who’s looking to build an AR9, hands down get a dedicated lower.

I have experienced freaky unexpected accuracy (MOA out to 100 yards) from the AR9s I’ve built, no idea exactly why. Its also fun to be able to consistently ring man sized steel at 400 yards with one, hearing a dull thud over a second after firing. (just for shits and giggles of course, and only on windless days).

My first QC10 lower was a colt mag pattern one, I made the decision based purely on cosmetics, even though I have a plethora of glock mags. Now after owning a couple of glock mag lowers as well, I still believe that colt pattern > glock pattern. They are easier to load than the single feed glock mags IMO too.

I can drop and reload my colt pattern guns measurably quicker than the glock ones, IMO due to the straight up insertion.

Metalform colt mags (including the PSA branded ones that occasionally go on sale) > all others in terms of quality and reliable function.

No reason to not get a glock cut AR9 bolt IMO. No idea why MFG’s dont reduce a SKU and only make them versus offering both colt and glock cut bolts at this point.



On a related finishing note, myself and an C2 SOT buddy who is a skilled machinist are playing around with a couple of related fun projects - a fluted chamber barrel for AR9 we cooked up that is producing some interesting results, and we’re awaiting BATF opinion on a prototype gun we developed that allows for advanced primer ignition while in our understanding does not afoul of the ban on new manufacturer of open bolt semi-autos. Should be interesting.

Wish we had the computing power and software available to model this stuff, but since we arent a huge OEM, empirical tinkering will do for now. :)

[rd62]

So the Quarter Circle 10 bolt weights 15.1oz so should I go with the 8oz for 23oz or the 10oz for 25oz?

[fishing]

So the Quarter Circle 10 bolt weights 15.1oz so should I go with the 8oz for 23oz or the 10oz for 25oz?

do you wanna set it and forget it with pretty good results or do you want to tinker in the beginning to get excellent results?
what type of ammo do you generally shoot?
suppressed or unsupressed?

[rd62]

Set it and forget it. I'd rather practice than tinker. Unsurpressed as I dont own a suppressor. Yet. I'm partial to Blazer Brass for training ammo for no particular reason other than I've found it reliable and inexpensive. Carry ammo is 124gr HST though I don't expect this PCC to see too much of it.

[fishing]

Set it and forget it. I'd rather practice than tinker. Unsurpressed as I dont own a suppressor. Yet. I'm partial to Blazer Brass for training ammo for no particular reason other than I've found it reliable and inexpensive. Carry ammo is 124gr HST though I don't expect this PCC to see too much of it.

get the 8 ounce with an AR10 Carbine length spring.
run the travel distance check and shim with quarters if/as necessary.
use good mags and also make sure your ejector is positioned properly in the lower.

should be gtg.
if you decide to run suppressed often or shoot hotter ammo frequently (blazer brass is fine but pretty mild imo), plan on upgrading to the 10 ounce (can be done with the addition of an $8 tungsten weight)

[nalesq]

I know the HSGI tacos would've been fine, but wanting something a little slicker and perhaps a bit less tactical looking (the latter of which may be an absurd goal, given that they're for an SBR'd Colt SMG-looking thing), I ended up ordering a couple of these instead:

http://www.weare-nerd.com/shop/magazine-mausoleum

So as a follow up on the above, I received the Colt mag carriers I ordered from Nerd, and had the opportunity to run some reloads with them.

My preliminary impression is favorable. They're cut and hang just low enough on the belt so that I'm able to insert and extract a standard 32-round mag without undue difficulty. Of course, it's never going to be as smooth or easy as getting a shorter pistol mag in and out of a mag carrier, but it works well enough for my purposes. They came with belt clips that can easily be mounted on either side of the mag carrier, depending on desired mag orientation.

In sum, for an easy on and off Kydex mag carrier, they are exactly what I was looking for.

[GJM]

First string of the classifier today:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=nxLHeeBHp0w

PCC hit factors are the same as Open.

[GJM]

And a field stage from the match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L8_6rLTlRc

[GJM]

First string of the classifier today:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=nxLHeeBHp0w

PCC hit factors are the same as Open.

Gabe taught me how to imbed videos:


http://youtu.be/nxLHeeBHp0w

[Bummy425]

I am trying to keep from shelling out 2k for a mpx with sbr and YOU ARE NOT HELPING!!

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

[ranger]

Update on my SIG MPX SBR PCC Journey. Purchased SIG MPX pistol - GEN 2 - 9mm. Took 8 months for SBR approval. While waiting, watched the forums, eBay, etc. and picked up an OEM SIG factory folding "skeleton" stock. Also picked up an adapter to use AR carbine buffer tube with a MAGPL MOE carbine stock I have on hand. Very lucky to pick up great deals on SIG MPX Gen 1 30 round mags (one of the knocks on the MPX has been expensive mags). Picked up a clean used 6 MOA Cmore slide ride on a competition oriented forum. Got it the MPX engraved at a local trophy shop who engraves a lot of SBRs.

Took it to the range yesterday with a bucket of mixed 9mm ammo - Freedom Munitions American Steel 115, assorted cheap steel case 9mm 115, assorted reloads by me in various weight FMJ. Disassembled MPX at range and lubricated BCG etc. heavily based on feedback from multiple forums on MPX. Used the Gen 2 mag that came with the MPX plus some Gen 1 mags I had bought. Fired 250 rounds with no issues. Quickly zeroed the Cmore - I can see why the Cmore dominates USPSA Open Class - so very quick. After zeroing Cmore and confirming backup zero, ran drills on plate rack and IDPA targets to get used to the MPX and break it in. So far, I like the OEM SIG folding skeleton stock. Also, using the SIG supplied forward hand stop and did not use a VFG - forearm is thick but no issues shooting.

I have a PSA AR9 that I have been shooting - no issues with the PSA AR9 - but there is no doubt the SIG MPX has less recoil and just feels smoother. I appreciate the SIG MPX is heavily influenced by the AR controls so the MPX feels "natural" to an experienced AR shooter. Only upgrade I am considering is another trigger but I am waiting on the decision of what is the "best" MPX trigger as I have read on multiple forums that not just any AR trigger will last more than 2000 rounds in a MPX. Also need to pick up a light for the forearm for night shoots and HD.

Got a local outlaw PCC match today - looking forward to it. I have a QD sling mount on order for the forearm but today I will use the singlepoint sling that came with the MPX.

[GJM]

I am a big sling guy on my carbines and hunting rifles, but do NOT run a sling on my PCC, as it can get in the way. I heard, second hand, there was a recent safety issue with a PCC shooter and a sling, and slings may be forbidden. That is not official.

[El Cid]

Didn't see this mentioned yet. Taran Tactical has +10 extensions for the MPX.

http://tarantacticalinnovations.com/10-base-pad-for-mpx-carbine/

[ranger]

Home from first outlaw PCC match with SIG MPX SBR - we are normally an IDPA club so we ran it with IDPA scoring and rules but allow any pistol carbine with any optic (and we let in 300BO also). Low turnout as cold (for GA!), overcast, and supposed to rain (rained just as we finished). 4 good stages. Round counts in the 20s each. One stage you started out with a 12 round mag then had a choice of reloading PCC or using you pistol - I used the sling and transitioned to pistol to finish stage. Most of the PCCs were AR 9mm, with one AR 300BO SBR, one MPX 16inch, and two SIG MPX PCC SBRs. All had some form of dot - multiple small Aimpoints, multiple 30mm Aimpoints, multiple Vortex SPARC, and my Cmore.

My new SIG MPX SBR functioned flawlessly. Another 80 rounds of Freedom Munitions American Steel 115FMJ down range. One Gen 2 and one Gen 1 mag used. Cmore worked great. Used the SIG OEM Skeleton folding stock and it worked well - may try the adapter and AR style stock next to compare - may like some more length of pull. Trigger was ok but felt mushy but I have been shooting some really great triggers lately in my ARs and my 6.5CM bolt.

[GJM]

Didn't see this mentioned yet. Taran Tactical has +10 extensions for the MPX.

http://tarantacticalinnovations.com/10-base-pad-for-mpx-carbine/

I have been using the Taylor Freelance and Taran Tactical +10 extensions for the last month, and both work well, except they don't lock back on the last round. I have a slight preference for the Taran extensions as the edges are more rounded.

Ranger, I have the Sig M4 stock extension with a Magpul CTR on my two MPX carbines. Prefer that to the Kate Moss and stock OEM collapsible stocks that I have.

[GJM]

Shot another PCC match today. MPX ran great.

On one stage, we had to engage targets from three boxes. Very USPA "game it," we had a strategy of just firing a shot down range from boxes one and two, while engaging all targets from box three. Probably a match DQ in USPSA. I decided to try a Rogers extended ready snap shot while moving out of the box. It was a Gabe White moment, as I connected in .44 on the move. I edited that down to just a few seconds


http://youtu.be/MwNrFubpp3Q

This was my best stage in the match:


http://youtu.be/7vpUI7zDvYY


This should have been my best stage, but because of the offset between muzzle and optic, I just clipped a no shoot through the second to last port. Great lesson learned.


http://youtu.be/JR_JvYXKFhU

[fishing]

I have been using the Taylor Freelance and Taran Tactical +10 extensions for the last month, and both work well, except they don't lock back on the last round. I have a slight preference for the Taran extensions as the edges are more rounded.

Ranger, I have the Sig M4 stock extension with a Magpul CTR on my two MPX carbines. Prefer that to the Kate Moss and stock OEM collapsible stocks that I have.

is this by design? (I'm not familiar with ins and outs of this PCC comp class). Do either include new springs?

[Edwin]

I kind of want one of these just to run in PCC.

13549

[GJM]

is this by design? (I'm not familiar with ins and outs of this PCC comp class). Do either include new springs?

The Glock plus 10 extensions for use on the OEM 33 round magazine come with a new spring, but the MPX extensions do not include a new spring.

Happy fingers, in my post above, I meant to say IDPA match DQ.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I kind of want one of these just to run in PCC.

13549

What is THAT? It looks magnificent!


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[Bummy425]

Looks like an old school MP5 to me

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

[Edwin]

It's an MP5 with wood G3 furniture modified to fit the MP5. As far as I know, the MP5 never had wood furniture.

[ragnar_d]

I kind of want one of these just to run in PCC.
Oh, that is a beautiful and classy looking creation.

[Dave Williams]

It's an MP5 with wood G3 furniture modified to fit the MP5. As far as I know, the MP5 never had wood furniture.

It should have though.

[Poconnor]

I wish HK would start making their roller delayed rifles in the US. I know an AR15 9mm that uses Glock mags would be a better training carbine but I always wanted an HK 94

[Bummy425]

I was just in Cabelas in Bowling Green KY and they had a MPX Carbine. First time I have ever handled one. Feels like very good quality, I just want the pistol version for a SBR. But before I do that, can you run a SBR in USPSA PCC?

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[Joe in PNG]

I wish HK would start making their roller delayed rifles in the US. I know an AR15 9mm that uses Glock mags would be a better training carbine but I always wanted an HK 94

There is the HK SP5K, so who knows?

[fishing]

There is the HK SP5K, so who knows?

Made in Germany. Imported as pistol only at this point, I assume this was atleast partially driven by US restrictions on importation of foreign made rifles.

[Poconnor]

I think the only way an HK 94 is coming back is if they make them in the US

[Joe in PNG]

I think the only way an HK 94 is coming back is if they make them in the US

I'm thinking if the SP is popular enough, that may entice them to set up a line here. Likewise if we get SBR's off the NFA, or something.
They are understandably a bit gunshy following the 91 debacle.

[GJM]

Today, I shot my most satisfying PCC match to date. Shot with emotional control, made no mental mistakes, and scored 126 A, 21C and no D, M, NS or penalties. Here are some stages.

A standards stage, stuck the reload pretty well.


http://youtu.be/_HBhs8IUBbI

More stages:


http://youtu.be/8GaEANqM5jo


http://youtu.be/cHsL5HHBYd0


http://youtu.be/eW0qWX1Lx7E

[Dave Williams]

Nice, the RO seems like a cool guy.

[GJM]

Super cool. That is Rick and he is a M in three divisions, great guy, and the guy I travel with to most matches.

[ranger]

GJM tell me about your MPX mag pouches. I am using Glock 21 pouches for my AR9 colt style mags but looking for MPX pouches

[GJM]

GJM tell me about your MPX mag pouches. I am using Glock 21 pouches for my AR9 colt style mags but looking for MPX pouches

Made by Blade-Tech:

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/single-mag-pouch-mpx-bladetech-fde.html

Also, there is a magwell for the MPX, I just ordered:

http://www.shootingsportsinnovations.com/BOTTOM-FEEDER-MPX-Magwell-BF-MPX001.htm

[Norville]

This thread is going to cost me some money, I can just tell. My plan was to shoot CO this coming season but this looks like too much fun not to try. MPX is the obvious choice so I better stock up on the gen 1 mags while they are still cheap and available.

Otherwise it's that Glock conversion thing where at least I wouldn't need mags.

Hmmmm...

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

I have been using the Taylor Freelance and Taran Tactical +10 extensions for the last month, and both work well, except they don't lock back on the last round. I have a slight preference for the Taran extensions as the edges are more rounded.

Ranger, I have the Sig M4 stock extension with a Magpul CTR on my two MPX carbines. Prefer that to the Kate Moss and stock OEM collapsible stocks that I have.

George is the Sig 1913 folding interface knuckle what you used w/ the CTR?

Looking @ possibly going the same route & if that's the part any resources besides Sig to buy it from?

[GJM]

Here is what I am using, available from Midway, but it was cheaper direct from Sig:


https://www.midwayusa.com/product/944138/sig-sauer-folding-m4-stock-assembly-sig-mpx-mcx-black


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[GJM]

So a buddy built me a direct blow back PCC, using Glock magazines, side charging lower, and all the best parts. It came out great.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5326_zpshbljisvd.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5326_zpshbljisvd.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5324_zpsl8d6fxxs.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5324_zpsl8d6fxxs.jpg.html)

Unfortunately, when I took it to the range and shot it side by side against the MPX, the MPX shot circles around it. The Sig MPX gas system makes an enormous difference in how soft it shoots.

[MSparks909]

Any reason you have the optic mounted on the actual rail instead of the upper? Might have some issues keeping a precise zero if anything ever bumps the rail hard enough.

[GJM]

Any reason you have the optic mounted on the actual rail instead of the upper? Might have some issues keeping a precise zero if anything ever bumps the rail hard enough.

Similar position as to how I have my MPX set up (main MPX rail extends further forward). The MRO ended up being a little low for my liking, as it is a absolute height, and I put a six moa CMore on for the testing.

[Norville]

And so it begins!

[fishing]

And so it begins!

interesting. my carbine came with an open 3 prong style muzzle device.
wonder why they made the change?

are the "ports" on that muzzle device partially covered by the front end of the handguard?

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

interesting. my carbine came with an open 3 prong style muzzle device.
wonder why they made the change?

are the "ports" on that muzzle device partially covered by the front end of the handguard?

Sure an SME on PCCs like George will confirm this but I *thought* the 3 prong FH's were on the gen 1 guns & they starting using the closed/birdcage style along w/ key-mod rails on the gen 2 Sigs.

[4gallonbucket]

So gen1 magazines are ok in the gen2 MCX? Why the change and what changed between gen1 and gen2?


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[Norville]

are the "ports" on that muzzle device partially covered by the front end of the handguard?

Yes, they start about 3/8" back.

[fishing]

Yes, they start about 3/8" back.

ah jeez - its not a high pressure rifle round but come on fuckin sig!

[GJM]

My impression is that is the gas system that makes the MPX so good to shoot. Night and day difference compared to a blow back AR9.

[fishing]

My impression is that is the gas system that makes the MPX so good to shoot. Night and day difference compared to a blow back AR9.

unquestionable advantage in competition over ar9, cz scorp and other straight blowback guns.

are you still getting the WC beretta mag gun? do you think you'd use it in competition over the MPX?

[GJM]

Thought the Wilson was in process, but haven't heard anything on it in a while. Hard to imagine any blow back will run with the MPX.

[fishing]

Thought the Wilson was in process, but haven't heard anything on it in a while. Hard to imagine any blow back will run with the MPX.

ive reached the point where i feel reciprocating weight in my AR9s (generic term, i don't own a WC AR9) is optimized for function.
still have snappy/abrupt recoil impulse though.

my 16'' AR9 weighs 6.1 # with optic and no mag.
WC site says their 16'' AR9 weighs 6.25 # (assume no optic and no mag).
Sig says their MPX 16'' weighs 7.6 # (assume no optic and no mag).

I'm gonna toy around with adding weight in the stock as well as at muzzle end, so long as it remains well balanced I'd have no issue with it weighing ~8 # and i am hoping some of the snappy-ness will be dampened.

[Bergeron]

Would there be any difference in reliability between otherwise equivalent Colt/Uzi mag- based PCCs and Glock mag PCCs?

[GJM]

Would there be any difference in reliability between otherwise equivalent Colt/Uzi mag- based PCCs and Glock mag PCCs?

Not sure, but want to point out that my Colt 6951 direct blow back does not like being run dry, unlike the MPX, which needs ample lube to function reliably.

[fishing]

Would there be any difference in reliability between otherwise equivalent Colt/Uzi mag- based PCCs and Glock mag PCCs?

all else being equal, in my experience i would rate a QC10 glock lower with glock oem or glock pmags to be equally reliable as a QC10 colt lower with metalform mags.

i prefer colt even though i have both styles and a boatload of existing glock mags.

[fishing]

Not sure, but want to point out that my Colt 6951 direct blow back does not like being run dry, unlike the MPX, which needs ample lube to function reliably.

confused... mpx likes to be run wet with oil but how are you saying the colt likes to berun?

i get an acidbrush and literally paint my blowback ar9 bolts with cheap molygrease.

[GJM]

confused... mpx likes to be run wet with oil but how are you saying the colt likes to berun?

i get an acidbrush and literally paint my blowback ar9 bolts with cheap molygrease.

The MPX needs to be run wet.

When I lubed my Colt 6951 up, like I do with a 5.56 AR, it stopped running. Once I wiped the lube off, it stated running again. Not sure whether this was just mine, but thought I would point it out.

[John Hearne]

FWIW, I've always liked the "feel" of my 9mm AR. My utterly subjective impression is that it is more "slammy" than my 16" mid-length gun. It actually feels like you're dealing with more recoil in the 9mm than the 5.56. I like the training value.

[MSparks909]

Considering a MPX in the next few months. Torn between going with the 8" or the 16" carbine version. If I get the 8" I'll SBR it. Just not sure if I want to go that route. I think the longer handguard on the 16" would aid in control/transitions and handle more like my 16" ARs. But I will also run a suppressor on this probably 50% of the time so the shorter 8" length would be nice. Choices, choices...

[ranger]

I went SBR with the MPX (bought the pistol then went SBR) - I have multiple ARs in multiple calibers if I want a 16" "carbine".

[rob_s]

Does the MPX work like the AR in that you can have different upsets on one lower?

[ranger]

A number of my MPX shooting associates are talking about having multiple barrels vs multiple uppers. This article talks about ease of changing MPX barrels. Issue though is how to get extra MPX barrels of multiple lengths as they do appear to be readily available and appear to be pricey.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/03/foghorn/gun-review-sig-sauer-mpx-pistol/

[fishing]

Does the MPX work like the AR in that you can have different upsets on one lower?

yes and no...

mpx upper and lower are proprietary shape/size etc.
sig AFAIK does not sell uppers, stripped or complete.
i suppose if one bought multiple complete MPX's, they could swap uppers with lowers depending on laws (creating sbr etc)

a while back (before i sold my gen 1 mpx and purchased a couple of gen 2s), sig was going to sell gen 1 owners complete uppers in diff calibers as they would not be offering simple caliber x-change kits for gen 1 guns. never went anywhere though.

[fishing]

A number of my MPX shooting associates are talking about having multiple barrels vs multiple uppers. This article talks about ease of changing MPX barrels. Issue though is how to get extra MPX barrels of multiple lengths as they do appear to be readily available and appear to be pricey.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/03/foghorn/gun-review-sig-sauer-mpx-pistol/

very easy to change barrel and handguard on the MPX.
however as of writing, barrel assemblies have still not been offered for sale by sig.

[GJM]

1) I was at a two day steel match this weekend, shooting PCC. About 250 shooters, with a high percentage of excellent shooters. If you think you shoot well, shooting competition is a quick reality check as to your skills and how many great shooters there are out there.

2) I had an excellent match going, until my MPX disassembled mid stage on the second day. Running between arrays, I was greeted with the upper flopped over. Getting the thing reassembled took about 25 seconds, and I am glad I fought through it, and avoided zeroing the stage. Unfortunately it tanked my match by a bunch of places in overall. I will try to load video of that later, as it was a goat rope.

It turned out, that a secondary spring the MPX has, was bent, taking away pressure on the rear pin, and after a thousand or so rounds of firing, the pin walked out. Figuring out the hammer had fallen, it needed to be cocked, holding the charging handle and BCG in, and getting it re-pinned was interesting, while on the clock.

3) The guy who finished first in the strict steel challenge part of the match, and third overall in PCC, was shooting a MegTech conversion on a Gen 3 17 lower. Sub $500 PCC solution that worked well for him.

[Bummy425]

At least you didnt YARD SALE parts all over the place!

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[GJM]

At least you didnt YARD SALE parts all over the place!

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Pretty close to that!


http://youtu.be/rW2-fIXD2uU

[Bummy425]

You took care of that pretty quick....and I bet you dont practice that like other malfunctions!

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[GJM]

My wife and I got a chance to shoot our new blow back, side charger AR9, the JP GMR-13 and the MPX on a mix of pure steel and paper arrays. Here is what we figured out.

On pure steel, one shot and transition, we both shot the blow back AR9 measurably better. We believe it is because of the light weight, making for faster transitions. On paper arrays, that involved splits and multiple close targets, I shot the MPX measurably better. My wife couldn't move the heavier MPX fast enough to take advantage of its splitting ability, and still shot the blow back better. I think the blow back AR9 could benefit from load development (read: lower PF loads) and a great comp, like the prototype one from MBX, that I shot this weekend.

On another note, the trigger in my older JP GMR-13 stopped resetting, and I need to contact JP.

[fishing]

My wife and I got a chance to shoot our new blow back, side charger AR9, the JP GMR-13 and the MPX on a mix of pure steel and paper arrays. Here is what we figured out.

On pure steel, one shot and transition, we both shot the blow back AR9 measurably better. We believe it is because of the light weight, making for faster transitions. On paper arrays, that involved splits and multiple close targets, I shot the MPX measurably better. My wife couldn't move the heavier MPX fast enough to take advantage of its splitting ability, and still shot the blow back better. I think the blow back AR9 could benefit from load development (read: lower PF loads) and a great comp, like the prototype one from MBX, that I shot this weekend.

On another note, the trigger in my older JP GMR-13 stopped resetting, and I need to contact JP.

could you do a rough comparison of balance point between your new AR9 and your mpx carbine?

interested in your eventual thoughts on the comp as well, i notice no difference with a comp using standard 9mm and 16'' of barrel.

[ranger]

interesting. my carbine came with an open 3 prong style muzzle device.
wonder why they made the change?

are the "ports" on that muzzle device partially covered by the front end of the handguard?

I bet they made a tuning fork sound - my AAC muzzle devices sure do!

[littlejerry]

I'm surprised the MPX is much heavier than an AR9. I would expect that being gas operated it would use a lighter bolt and weigh the same or less than a basic blowback design.

[fishing]

I'm surprised the MPX is much heavier than an AR9. I would expect that being gas operated it would use a lighter bolt and weigh the same or less than a basic blowback design.

receivers are quite large and chunk - overly so IMO.
weigh distribution is noticeably poorer in my mpx carbine vs ar9s as well.

[Norville]

receivers are quite large and chunk - overly so IMO.
weigh distribution is noticeably poorer in my mpx carbine vs ar9s as well.

I concur. After shooting and dry firing mine a few times I am still amazed at how heavy it is. I don't have an AR9 to compare, but a 16" 5.56 AR with a KMR forend feels so much lighter and quicker although if is just about 8oz lighter as currently configured. The recoil control of th MPX with the weight and gas system is great as noted, but I have yet to run it on a timer to see how it actually transitions.

[GJM]

Not sure if I reported it, but the cause of my rear pin walking out, leading to spontaneous disassembly, was a bent spring, that I had damaged when putting loctite on the screw on my grip, which had walked loose a few weeks before.

When I went to my back-up MPX at the match last weekend, I had one or two light hits with Speer 147 Lawman factory ammo. Today, at a match, the light hits became frequent. Later I disassembled the MPX, and found what I believe is the problem. The firing pin spring was broken in half. I pilfered a spring out of my MPX pistol, and will call Sig for spares tomorrow. Seems like a lot of small part issues with the MPX. Here is the broken spring.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5359_zpso1zkhkko.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5359_zpso1zkhkko.jpg.html)

[ranger]

I continue to practice with my SIG MPX SBR (formerly pistol). Was able to pick up GEN1 MPX mags on sale and so far they are flawless in my GEN2 MPX. Very much like the CMore sight. Picked up four KYDEX mag pouches from the SIG Store (BladeTech I believe). I have fired about 500 rounds through my MPX so far - mostly Freedom Munitions 115 FMJ but also other assorted 115FMJ steel case. No issues yet but I do not have that many rounds fired yet.

[SteveB]

When I went to my back-up MPX at the match last weekend, I had one or two light hits with Speer 147 Lawman factory ammo. Today, at a match, the light hits became frequent. Later I disassembled the MPX, and found what I believe is the problem. The firing pin spring was broken in half. I pilfered a spring out of my MPX pistol, and will call Sig for spares tomorrow. Seems like a lot of small part issues with the MPX. Here is the broken spring.

G, any idea of the round count on that FP spring?

[GJM]

G, any idea of the round count on that FP spring?

A few thousand rounds.

[MSparks909]

With all the little MPX issues maybe the AR9 is the way to go after all...

[GJM]

With all the little MPX issues maybe the AR9 is the way to go after all...

Little issues are those that happen to other people....

The MPX gas system helps a lot with heavy loads. For pure PCC, I am going to experiment with a 130 PF load in my AR9. Right now, we are living through the maturation process of the MPX. I got a replacement firing pin spring on the way. They had four total in stock, and besides the comp one, I bought two more at $15 a pop. Asked about spare BCG parts -- nope none available. Currently my spare parts kit is my MPX pistol. The firing pin spring from it cured my ignition problem. I am thinking about carrying the pistol's BCG with me to matches as a spare.

[nalesq]

With all the little MPX issues maybe the AR9 is the way to go after all...

To be fair, Colt 9mm SMGs (at least the ones I have seen in government service), aren't exactly known for durability either. Broken hammer and trigger pins are not uncommon.

[Jeep]

By the way. These are really interesting and useful reports and comments--please keep them coming.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

To be fair, Colt 9mm SMGs (at least the ones I have seen in government service), aren't exactly known for durability either. Broken hammer and trigger pins are not uncommon.

Very much mirrors what we found w/ the <1/2 doz. that Clint bought for SH work in the mid/late 90s.

[John Hearne]

To be fair, Colt 9mm SMGs (at least the ones I have seen in government service), aren't exactly known for durability either. Broken hammer and trigger pins are not uncommon.

The KNS non-rotating hammer/trigger pins fix that. I preemptively put a set on a FA lower we use in conjunction with a 9mm upper.

[GJM]

By the way. These are really interesting and useful reports and comments--please keep them coming.

Thank you.

I just received magwells for my side charger AR9 and JP GMR-13 from Taccom. They look somewhat crude, but work great.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5365_zpsrcxqvops.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5365_zpsrcxqvops.jpg.html)

Also, we loaded 124 Berry's over 3.0 Tite Group. The are very soft shooting, similar to the MPX, and shoot great at 25 yards.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5364_zpsifbucah5.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5364_zpsifbucah5.jpg.html)

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

GJM or any MPX owners, your thoughts on lighter replacement handguards for a 16" MPX.

[fishing]

GJM or any MPX owners, your thoughts on lighter replacement handguards for a 16" MPX.

only one that i know of is the lancer carbon one, which seems to be not for sale at this point in time.

you could put a pistol/sbr length handguard on carbine i suppose but that seems like silliness

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

only one that i know of is the lancer carbon one, which seems to be not for sale at this point in time.

you could put a pistol/sbr length handguard on carbine i suppose but that seems like silliness

Thx Fishing, I had looked @ those before posting & agreed re. the pistol/SBR length silliness on a carb.

Trying to shed some weight on the MPX & given the extreme popularity of PCCs, I envision more choices for triggers, HGs, etc. for the MPX going forward in 2017.

[GJM]

When I looked at the Lancer hand guard details, it looked cool but didn't actually save much weight. I wish we could lighten up the MPX and make the hand guard thinner.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

When I looked at the Lancer hand guard details, it looked cool but didn't actually save much weight. I wish we could lighten up the MPX and make the hand guard thinner.

Well shucks George, trust you'll keep us posted then if you solve this conundrum, I'll X the lancer option in the mean time from my punch list.

[Norville]

I emailed Lancer last week. The 14" hand guard is available to order, delivery approximately 6 weeks, price $319.

It does not have the top Picatinny rail so it may make a C clamp grip easier. Between saving that weight and the taking off the BUIS you may be able to save 6-8 ounces.

[GJM]

A friend had problems with his MPX yesterday, involving an unloaded start on a stage, getting failures to ignite. He is a squared away guy, M Open shooter.

Right now, based on my experiences and others I have directly observed, I would be reluctant to rely on an MPX for a self defense application.

[Montesf1030]

I have a few 9mm PCC ... But rely on my AR9 pistol build as my primary PD and HD ... Is the bottom one in the pic
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170226/38c8b230fb1a0e8b8a4e82ceb882bf27.jpg


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[jeep45238]

What's the top one in the photo? Looks interesting/confused/fun? It's the only one I don't recognize, but I haven't been following the rifle developments for a while.

[SeriousStudent]

What's the top one in the photo? Looks interesting/confused/fun?

CZ Scorpion.

[Montesf1030]

Is the CZ Scorpion Evo Carbine ... Is a sweet shooter !!!


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[ranger]

Beautiful weather in NW GA this weekend. Another 200 rounds through my MPX SBR - now at about 800 rounds with no issues. All the 9mm consumed has been "cheap" - about 600 rounds of Freedom Munitions American Steel 115 FMJ and about 200 of Brown Bear steel case 115FMJ. The steel case burns really dirty so first cleaning of the MPX. Still like the SIG OEM folding stock and the C More RDS.

[STI]

GJM,

I've been curious if this means you are proceeding with the blowback AR9 direction over the Sig MP? Presumably for increased reliability?

[GJM]

GJM,

I've been curious if this means you are proceeding with the blowback AR9 direction over the Sig MP? Presumably for increased reliability?

Still trying to sort this out. Have recently got in 135 grain red bullets from Acme, and need to finish load development, then side by side testing with the MPX.

[ragnar_d]

What's the top one in the photo? Looks interesting/confused/fun? It's the only one I don't recognize, but I haven't been following the rifle developments for a while.

CZ Scorpion EVO
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-carbine/


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[GJM]

Not sure if I reported it, but the cause of my rear pin walking out, leading to spontaneous disassembly, was a bent spring, that I had damaged when putting loctite on the screw on my grip, which had walked loose a few weeks before.

When I went to my back-up MPX at the match last weekend, I had one or two light hits with Speer 147 Lawman factory ammo. Today, at a match, the light hits became frequent. Later I disassembled the MPX, and found what I believe is the problem. The firing pin spring was broken in half. I pilfered a spring out of my MPX pistol, and will call Sig for spares tomorrow. Seems like a lot of small part issues with the MPX. Here is the broken spring.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_5359_zpso1zkhkko.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_5359_zpso1zkhkko.jpg.html)

Today, my number two PCC Sig MPX started having ignition problems. Got home, took it apart, and sure enough the firing pin spring was broken on this one as well. I called Sig, and they had zero springs in stock. Even better, the springs they sent to me a week ago went to a Colorado address and not where I am. Sig has a big problem, unless I am the outlier. Looks like I am shooting Carry Optics at this weekend's area match, not PCC.

[S Jenks]

Today, my number two PCC Sig MPX started having ignition problems. Got home, took it apart, and sure enough the firing pin spring was broken on this one as well. I called Sig, and they had zero springs in stock. Even better, the springs they sent to me a week ago went to a Colorado address and not where I am. Sig has a big problem, unless I am the outlier. Looks like I am shooting Carry Optics at this weekend's area match, not PCC.

Rough round count? Mine (Gen 1) became a single-shot around 1800 when the piston decided to fall out the front of the handguard. Not sure if the updated Gen 2 design has addressed this.

[GJM]

Rough round count? Mine (Gen 1) became a single-shot around 1800 when the piston decided to fall out the front of the handguard. Not sure if the updated Gen 2 design has addressed this.

Best guess is 2,000-3,000 each, almost exclusively Speer Lawman 147.

I am pretty disgusted.

[Clusterfrack]

Today, my number two PCC Sig MPX started having ignition problems. Got home, took it apart, and sure enough the firing pin spring was broken on this one as well. I called Sig, and they had zero springs in stock. Even better, the springs they sent to me a week ago went to a Colorado address and not where I am. Sig has a big problem, unless I am the outlier. Looks like I am shooting Carry Optics at this weekend's area match, not PCC.

And... this is why I'm not an early adopter. Thanks for the update, George. That sucks.

[Bummy425]

I am so glad I didnt have the cash handy a month ago....I may be in the market for a JP....

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[Bummy425]

Guys, is there a way to get an optic on a Zenith MP-5 clone? It just looks so damn cool!

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[Sigfan26]

Guys, is there a way to get an optic on a Zenith MP-5 clone? It just looks so damn cool!

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B&T makes a decent mount. Investment Grade Firearms used to weld pic rail on the top of the receiver. Not sure if they still do.


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[Bummy425]

B&T makes a decent mount. Investment Grade Firearms used to weld pic rail on the top of the receiver. Not sure if they still do.


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Thanks!

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[Jeep]

GJM:

Fully understand your disgust. The parts with problems so far seem to be small stuff--springs and pins and that kind of thing, which SIG ought to be able to fix with better sourcing.

Putting those aside, how is the basic carbine holding up--the bolt assembly and the other large components? Does this seem to be a potential 30,000+ round gun (assuming they start getting the small components right) or is it something that is already looking worn?

I ask because the MPX concept seems sound, and small parts issues should be fixable, but if the basic firearm can't take the battering then it is a pretty expensive novelty.

[Saur]

GJM:

Fully understand your disgust. The parts with problems so far seem to be small stuff--springs and pins and that kind of thing, which SIG ought to be able to fix with better sourcing.

Putting those aside, how is the basic carbine holding up--the bolt assembly and the other large components? Does this seem to be a potential 30,000+ round gun (assuming they start getting the small components right) or is it something that is already looking worn?

I ask because the MPX concept seems sound, and small parts issues should be fixable, but if the basic firearm can't take the battering then it is a pretty expensive novelty.


I think GJM may have gen1 mpx's... I've read that the Gen 2's don't even have firing pin springs.

[GJM]

GJM:

Fully understand your disgust. The parts with problems so far seem to be small stuff--springs and pins and that kind of thing, which SIG ought to be able to fix with better sourcing.

Putting those aside, how is the basic carbine holding up--the bolt assembly and the other large components? Does this seem to be a potential 30,000+ round gun (assuming they start getting the small components right) or is it something that is already looking worn?

I ask because the MPX concept seems sound, and small parts issues should be fixable, but if the basic firearm can't take the battering then it is a pretty expensive novelty.

Don't know yet.


I think GJM may have gen1 mpx's... I've read that the Gen 2's don't even have firing pin springs.

Mine are Gen 2. Sig told me they eliminated the spring and then went back to
it, which suggests to me a problem.

[Talionis]

I like the MPX a lot from the time I've spent with one. In many ways it seems like a product improved MP5, as far as functionality goes. Sadly for SIG and smugly for me, seems like HK still has the lead when it comes to reliability. And I still think the recoil impulse is even less from an MP5, after shooting them side by side.

[Saur]

Mine are Gen 2. Sig told me they eliminated the spring and then went back to
it, which suggests to me a problem.

Interesting! I agree.

[Trigger]

GJM,

Have you considered calling Wolff Gunsprings or IMSI Gunsprings to see if they can provide a duplicate spring of better quality? Seems like a spring of that coil dimension and length would not be that difficult to find.

https://www.gunsprings.com/index.php

https://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/

[GJM]

Kind of would like Sig to do that.

Shot five stages at the area match today without issue with my MPX, using BCG from my spare.

[JSGlock34]

Guys, is there a way to get an optic on a Zenith MP-5 clone? It just looks so damn cool!

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My Zenith Z5-RS came with a removable optics rail. Haven't tried it yet but I'm tempted for PCC.

https://zenithfirearms.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Zenith_Z-5RS_Right_Feather_2880x1920.jpg

[Talionis]

My Zenith Z5-RS came with a removable optics rail. Haven't tried it yet but I'm tempted for PCC.


Do it! Get yourself a barrel extension, slap a stock and an optic on it, pick up a 40 round magazine or two from hkparts, and you're rolling. Mine (SP5K) should be ready next week.

[Bummy425]

Do it! Get yourself a barrel extension, slap a stock and an optic on it, pick up a 40 round magazine or two from hkparts, and you're rolling. Mine (SP5K) should be ready next week.
Barrel extension? Does that make it non sbr legal? Wouldnt that have to be welded?

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[Talionis]

Barrel extension? Does that make it non sbr legal? Wouldnt that have to be welded?

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Pinned and welded so that it is "permanent", as in requires a grinder to remove it. One could also silver solder the extension (mine is a faux suppressor) for the same ATF approved permanence. Once my form 1 comes through, grind off the weld and it is an SBR.

[GJM]

Two out of the three days of the area match done, and the MPX is still running 100 percent. The Prez, Mike Foley is shooting up a storm.

I mounted a Crimson Trace, CMR-206 Rail master green laser to my MPX, zeroed at ten yards, and it is very helpful in some situations. Since my C-More is zeroed at 25 yards, the CT green laser also provides offset info, besides allowing shooting in weird positions. It turns out Mike F is also running the same unit.

After looking at my stage results yesterday, I decided with the penalty of PCC minor scoring, and it being a fifteen stage match, I would do best for the whole match to turn the speed dial back slightly. That worked out well today, and I shot 138 A, 15 C and nothing worse. For the two days, I have only shot one D, and no penalties. A secondary benefit is it is a low drama method, where giving up some highs helps eliminate the lows.

A few vids from today.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIEQc6FHwQg


https://youtu.be/cxsW-bvnbXY

[Talionis]

Two out of the three days of the area match done, and the MPX is still running 100 percent. The Prez, Mike Foley is shooting up a storm.

I mounted a Crimson Trace, CMR-206 Rail master green laser to my MPX, zeroed at ten yards, and it is very helpful in some situations. Since my C-More is zeroed at 25 yards, the CT green laser also provides offset info, besides allowing shooting in weird positions. It turns out Mike F is also running the same unit.

After looking at my stage results yesterday, I decided with the penalty of PCC minor scoring, and it being a fifteen stage match, I would do best for the whole match to turn the speed dial back slightly. That worked out well today, and I shot 138 A, 15 C and nothing worse. For the two days, I have only shot one D, and no penalties. A secondary benefit is it is a low drama method, where giving up some highs helps eliminate the lows.

A few vids from today.


Looking solid! I may be able to wangle a spot on your and YVK's squad for area 1 after all, looking forward to comparing notes.

[Bart Carter]

I have been looking more and more at the Colt AR6951. I would appreciate some feedback as to reliability, service life, problems, downsides, etc.

I am looking for an AR9 that I can practice with and maybe do some matches. I would like to set it up just like my AR15, so can I use aftermarket parts such as handguards, stocks, triggers, etc.? What parts are strictly for the Colt AR6951? Are there different barrel options out there? What if I wanted a 14.5" pencil barrel?

I would appreciate any information.

[Norville]

Two out of the three days of the area match done, and the MPX is still running 100 percent. The Prez, Mike Foley is shooting up a storm.

I mounted a Crimson Trace, CMR-206 Rail master green laser to my MPX, zeroed at ten yards, and it is very helpful in some situations. Since my C-More is zeroed at 25 yards, the CT green laser also provides offset info, besides allowing shooting in weird positions. It turns out Mike F is also running the same unit.

After looking at my stage results yesterday, I decided with the penalty of PCC minor scoring, and it being a fifteen stage match, I would do best for the whole match to turn the speed dial back slightly. That worked out well today, and I shot 138 A, 15 C and nothing worse. For the two days, I have only shot one D, and no penalties. A secondary benefit is it is a low drama method, where giving up some highs helps eliminate the lows.



Great shooting !

Interesting about the laser. I was training this morning and trying to compensate at short ranges. Just when I thought I was done adding stuff to the mpx.