"Personal Defense" rounds, worthwhile?

[jmjames]

I've read Doc's information on the ballistics of common duty rounds (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?99-Self-Defense-and-Duty-Loads-ballistics-info-by-DocGKR). I am curious if anyone has similar information for the various "self defense" and "personal defense" or similarly branded items out there (Hornady Critical Defense, Winchester PDX, etc.). I know that many of these are obviously gimmicky, especially when looking at shotgun rounds (do I really want/need slugs AND shot coming out at the same time?). And some of the benefits are dubious; for example, the nickel-plated Critical Defense rounds, if I have a gun that jams so often with brass that I need an ultra-slick case, do I want to defend myself with it? But things like the various ballistic tips seem like they are of potential benefit.

So, do these rounds have any real benefit above and beyond the rounds that Doc has mentioned above? If so, is it enough to justify their price?

J.Ja

[JM Campbell]

Use the product codes Doc has listed and search the Internet for them. They are sold in lots of 50 and not 20/25 like defensive loads that are basically the same thing just rebadged packages.

Save on my friend, save on. ;)

[Sparks2112]

I've read Doc's information on the ballistics of common duty rounds (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?99-Self-Defense-and-Duty-Loads-ballistics-info-by-DocGKR). I am curious if anyone has similar information for the various "self defense" and "personal defense" or similarly branded items out there (Hornady Critical Defense, Winchester PDX, etc.). I know that many of these are obviously gimmicky, especially when looking at shotgun rounds (do I really want/need slugs AND shot coming out at the same time?). And some of the benefits are dubious; for example, the nickel-plated Critical Defense rounds, if I have a gun that jams so often with brass that I need an ultra-slick case, do I want to defend myself with it? But things like the various ballistic tips seem like they are of potential benefit.

So, do these rounds have any real benefit above and beyond the rounds that Doc has mentioned above? If so, is it enough to justify their price?

J.Ja

Stick with what's on the list. Hornady critical defense has failed every independent test it's been ran in as far as I know. Pdx1 is ok but you'll end up paying more per round than you would for the equivalent Leo packaged box. There are several places that sell Leo stuff via inter webs. For instance, my shop carries 9mm Leo gold dot, hst, and ranger t around 28$ a box of 50. I'd post a link but I dont know how the mods feel about non sponsored advertising. Pm me if you'd like. :-)

[JDM]

For instance, my shop carries 9mm Leo gold dot, hst, and ranger t around 28$ a box of 50. I'd post a link but I dont know how the mods feel about non sponsored advertising. Pm me if you'd like. :-)

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1126-Astroturfing-and-Industry-Disclosure

[DocGKR]

The physiology and anatomy of bad guys does not change whether a LEO or private citizen is required to use lethal force to defend themselves against an attack. It is probably wise to select ammunition that has been extensively tested and vetted in field use by numerous LE agencies, compared to selecting ammo that has been slickly advertised, but has NO independent testing or verification of its efficacy in a lethal force encounter. In addition, LEO packaging is typically 50 rds per box--a lot more efficient than the stupid 20 rd boxes sold to many civilians...

[jmjames]

It is probably wise to select ammunition that has been extensively tested and vetted in field use by numerous LE agencies, compared to selecting ammo that has been slickly advertised, but has NO independent testing or verification of its efficacy in a lethal force encounter. In addition, LEO packaging is typically 50 rds per box--a lot more efficient than the stupid 20 rd boxes sold to many civilians...

I originally had bought Critical Defense because it came recommended. But the more I started to see the advertising and information, the more I looked at the product literature, the more it felt like they were selling "innovation" and not "proven results". It sounds to me like my gut instinct was right.

I'll be ordering some of the HST or Ranger from one of the various sites that I've seen mentioned on the list here.

Thanks to all for the information!

J.Ja

[Sparks2112]

I originally had bought Critical Defense because it came recommended. But the more I started to see the advertising and information, the more I looked at the product literature, the more it felt like they were selling "innovation" and not "proven results". It sounds to me like my gut instinct was right.

I'll be ordering some of the HST or Ranger from one of the various sites that I've seen mentioned on the list here.

Thanks to all for the information!

J.Ja

Good call. :)

[Sparks2112]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1126-Astroturfing-and-Industry-Disclosure

Fixed :D and thanks for the heads up.

[JHC]

But regardless how you buy it PDX1 pistol ammo is a good product.

[DocGKR]

PDX1 is basically the same ammunition as the Ranger bonded used by many LE agencies...

[ToddG]

The physiology and anatomy of bad guys does not change whether a LEO or private citizen is required to use lethal force to defend themselves against an attack.

You seriously do not belong in California.

[Tamara]

You seriously do not belong in California.

...says the Marylander. :p

[ToddG]

...says the Marylander. :p

... says the chick. :D:p:cool::eek::eek::eek:

(note to self: bring body armor to next year's Indy class)

[Jac]

... says the chick. :D:p:cool::eek::eek::eek:

(note to self: bring body armor to next year's Indy class)

Dude... Can I have one of your guns when you're gone?

[Sparks2112]

... says the chick. :D:p:cool::eek::eek::eek:

(note to self: bring body armor to next year's Indy class)

Ooooooh, fightin' words.

[Sparks2112]

PDX1 is basically the same ammunition as the Ranger bonded used by many LE agencies...

And some retailers sell the 50 round box of the bonded stuff for near the price that other places sell the 20 round cubes...:eek:

[Chuck Haggard]

... says the chick. :D:p:cool::eek::eek::eek:

(note to self: bring body armor to next year's Indy class)


Doesn't the FAST drill start with headshots?

[ToddG]

Doesn't the FAST drill start with headshots?

Dammit.

So who makes the best ballistic helmet these days?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Bob & weave Todd!

Get close and use footwork...

[JFK]

Hornady now has Zombie Max. That is all I need to know.



On a serious note.... This is interesting. I have always selected my carry ammo by trial and error on the range. I look at shootabliity, accuracy in my firearm, muzzle flash, etc. I guess performance should have been on the top of that list.

[jmjames]

Hornady now has Zombie Max. That is all I need to know.

I know, that is driving me nuts. I get it, it's just a marketing gag, but still...


On a serious note.... This is interesting. I have always selected my carry ammo by trial and error on the range. I look at shootabliity, accuracy in my firearm, muzzle flash, etc. I guess performance should have been on the top of that list.

Unfortunately, "performance" is the ONE thing I can't really test. :( It's easy to get a few boxes of ammo, run through some mags and say, "hey, that shot great" or "that was awful". But when you need to bet your life on it... that's the kind of data and information that there is no way I can get it up front myself at the range.

J.Ja

[Chuck Haggard]

Dammit.

So who makes the best ballistic helmet these days?

While you definitely need this;

http://www.securityprousa.com/coheleiiwiba.html

You may want to consider one of these;

http://www.securityprousa.com/eodsumispeo.html



As for carry ammo; I pick something off of Doc's list, find it in stock somewhere at a reasonable price, then buy enough to both test fire and get me by for awhile. Even if I buy more of the same brand and style of ammo I buy enough to test fire the new lot, just because I have had a couple of bad experiences with carry ammo in the past.

I think the premium stuff is worth it, just to address the original question.

[Tamara]

So who makes the best ballistic helmet these days?
True Story: I tried to do an artsy photo some years back with a reproduction Roman gladius and helmet and a Springfield Pro & Pro-Tec skateboard lid, and got an email from a friend that read "A Pro-Tec, Tam? That is so 1994." :o

re: The Ammo thing. So many vendors are wising up and selling the LE packaging to the general public that the buying of a 20-rd box of "Home Defense" loads is becoming almost as embarrassing as filling out a 4473 for a Taurus Judge.

These days I just buy SXTs and/or HST's at the gun show...

[Sparks2112]

True Story: I tried to do an artsy photo some years back with a reproduction Roman gladius and helmet and a Springfield Pro & Pro-Tec skateboard lid, and got an email from a friend that read "A Pro-Tec, Tam? That is so 1994." :o

re: The Ammo thing. So many vendors are wising up and selling the LE packaging to the general public that the buying of a 20-rd box of "Home Defense" loads is becoming almost as embarrassing as filling out a 4473 for a Taurus Judge.

These days I just buy SXTs and/or HST's at the gun show...

Isn't the sxt an older design/sub-optimum design? Thought the t-series had replaced it.

[jmjames]

re: The Ammo thing. So many vendors are wising up and selling the LE packaging to the general public that the buying of a 20-rd box of "Home Defense" loads is becoming almost as embarrassing as filling out a 4473 for a Taurus Judge.

A Taurus Judge? That is SO 2010... it's all about the S&W Governor now, don't you know? At least that's how it is in the gun shops by me... :D

I can't tell you how many times I've have the gun shop push a Judge or a Governor or similar and tell me about how it's the gun world version of a polio vaccine... because, you know, .410 shells with 00 buck at 5 feet create this massive death ray cone that obliterates any bad guy within sight... and mixing and matching .45 Colt, .410, and .45 ACP is really neat, keeps the bad guys guessing as to what color the death ray cone will be... argh.

J.Ja

[Tamara]

Isn't the sxt an older design/sub-optimum design? Thought the t-series had replaced it.

My bad. I was, of course, referring to the Ranger-T. :o (I guess the old 'Same eXact Thing' joke I heard from the Winchester rep back in the mid '90s was running through my head when I typed that...)

[Chuck Haggard]

I suspect the 20 round boxes are in deference to the folks who would only buy six or eight rounds, or whatever they needed to fill up the blaster one time so they can then forget which drawer they left it in.


I almost always get my Ranger-T from these folks;

http://www.ombexpress.com/p-6769-winchester-ra9t-147-gr-9-mm-jhp-t-series-case-of-500.aspx

[Tamara]

I suspect the 20 round boxes are in deference to the folks who would only buy six or eight rounds, or whatever they needed to fill up the blaster one time so they can then forget which drawer they left it in.

Certain demographics (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM4964-1.html) don't even need to buy 20 at a time. :eek:

[Kevin B.]

If the gun is the Judge, and the ammo is the Jury, who becomes the Executioner?

[Sparks2112]

A Taurus Judge? That is SO 2010... it's all about the S&W Governor now, don't you know? At least that's how it is in the gun shops by me... :D

I can't tell you how many times I've have the gun shop push a Judge or a Governor or similar and tell me about how it's the gun world version of a polio vaccine... because, you know, .410 shells with 00 buck at 5 feet create this massive death ray cone that obliterates any bad guy within sight... and mixing and matching .45 Colt, .410, and .45 ACP is really neat, keeps the bad guys guessing as to what color the death ray cone will be... argh.

J.Ja

That's funny. When someone comes into our shop to buy one they usually leave with something else. :) Though lately I've just been letting some of the other guys show them to people. Apparently I can only have that conversation about a million times before I just want to face palm and walk away.

[Sparks2112]

I suspect the 20 round boxes are in deference to the folks who would only buy six or eight rounds, or whatever they needed to fill up the blaster one time so they can then forget which drawer they left it in.


I almost always get my Ranger-T from these folks;

http://www.ombexpress.com/p-6769-winchester-ra9t-147-gr-9-mm-jhp-t-series-case-of-500.aspx

They must order a ton of that stuff. Thats under cost for me. Though I will point out ours is in stock. ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

Certain demographics (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM4964-1.html) don't even need to buy 20 at a time. :eek:

With magic bullets you only need a few. That's why Glasers and MagSafe come in six packs.

[Chuck Haggard]

They must order a ton of that stuff. Thats under cost for me. Though I will point out ours is in stock. ;)

They do, they supply a large number of LE agencies.

I've bought my 124gr +P Ranger-T from them for years.

[Sparks2112]

They do, they supply a large number of LE agencies.

I've bought my 124gr +P Ranger-T from them for years.

One day :)

[Sparks2112]

With magic bullets you only need a few. That's why Glasers and MagSafe come in six packs.

And I thought it was just because the beer cans that explode so impressively when you shoot them with that stuff also came in six packs. Shows what I know.

[Nephrology]

I hate that Golden Sabers come in boxes of 20. I always end up getting them because they are either available or cheapest locally.

[Tamara]

I hate that Golden Sabers come in boxes of 20. I always end up getting them because they are either available or cheapest locally.

When did that happen? They used to come 25 to a box a few years back.

[Nephrology]

When did that happen? They used to come 25 to a box a few years back.

Oops, sorry, 25. Still an annoying quantity! They are usually pretty reasonably priced though, I threw in a couple boxes with my last order at AIM Surplus and i think it came out to 15bucks a box.

[rsa-otc]

25 round boxes equals only 2.5 mags worth in my M&P 45, less in most other self defense guns. It's kind of like only getting 2 mags with your new gun. Annoying! You are going to have to buy more anyway, so just give us 3 mags with the gun and 50 rounds in the box.

[ford.304]

So, I know I'm behind the times still carrying a revolver... but what are the equivalent non-gimmick defense loads for .38 special and .357 magnum?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

So, I know I'm behind the times still carrying a revolver... but what are the equivalent non-gimmick defense loads for .38 special and .357 magnum?


When I used to carry a .38 every so often, I went with the ACLU load - something Accurate, Controlable, Low flash, User friendly - as it was a .38 J-Frame and I wasn't going to get much beyond a hole in the target...

[EVP]

So, I know I'm behind the times still carrying a revolver... but what are the equivalent non-gimmick defense loads for .38 special and .357 magnum?

In my old 686 I used to use federal classic 125gr. It does produce some good recoil and blast. I am sure any of the premium
defensive ammo that uses the newer or proven bullets from Doc list should be good to go(ex. Gold dot, Barnes copper bullet).

[Sparks2112]

In my old 686 I used to use federal classic 125gr. It does produce some good recoil and blast. I am sure any of the premium
defensive ammo that uses the newer or proven bullets from Doc list should be good to go(ex. Gold dot, Barnes copper bullet).

135g +p gold dot or 110g dpx should be gtg.