Any benefit to a "recoil training pistol"?

[DocSabo40]

Is there any benefit to having a pistol with significantly more recoil that your primary carry gun, for training purposes?

The reason I ask: I went to the range today and rented a 1911 Commander in .45 along with a HK45C. My goal was to compare the shootability of the two before placing an order for a custom 1911. What I found though, was that with either one of them my shooting went to complete garbage. I am so thoroughly used to shooting my P229 9mm and G17, that something with actual recoil really throws off my shooting. What I was finding is that with my 9s the recoil is not enough to be distracting to me, so I can focus on gripping the hell out of it and pressing the trigger rapidly. With the .45s, and this may betray my lack of manliness, but the recoil was sharp enough that I really struggled to focus on the fundamentals and quickly developed a flinch and started tensing my hands as I pulled the trigger.

I may just be more recoil sensitive than I thought, I don't know. But it got me wondering if this is something I should try to train through, and if there would be any benefit to that.

Side note: the 1911 was supposed to be a present to myself for my dental school graduation coming up here in May, but I may hold off. I just didn't find it enjoyable to shoot, which means I wouldn't end up shooting it.

[YVK]

You know, I've done that for years, shooting mostly 9mm and then spending a couple months at the end of year with a .45 1911. I have never established if there was a durable and transferable benefit. I also had a P2000 (I am a 9mm P30 shooter) in .357SIG that I sold almost as fast as I bought it. I do think that I derived something out of those two months as I was more attentive to my grip and sight tracking but I never found that my 9mm performance jumped after I returned back. These days when I shoot my 45s, it is only because I want to shoot them.

[Duelist]

Get your custom 1911 in 9mm. Problem solved!

[LSP552]

I don't think so, and there can be definite negatives if you shoot it too much. On the other hand, a .22 is a great training tool regardless. It doesn't help recoil control, but it does help with sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control FREE of recoil.

[GardoneVT]

Is there any benefit to having a pistol with significantly more recoil that your primary carry gun, for training purposes?

The reason I ask: I went to the range today and rented a 1911 Commander in .45 along with a HK45C. My goal was to compare the shootability of the two before placing an order for a custom 1911. What I found though, was that with either one of them my shooting went to complete garbage. I am so thoroughly used to shooting my P229 9mm and G17, that something with actual recoil really throws off my shooting. What I was finding is that with my 9s the recoil is not enough to be distracting to me, so I can focus on gripping the hell out of it and pressing the trigger rapidly. With the .45s, and this may betray my lack of manliness, but the recoil was sharp enough that I really struggled to focus on the fundamentals and quickly developed a flinch and started tensing my hands as I pulled the trigger.

I may just be more recoil sensitive than I thought, I don't know. But it got me wondering if this is something I should try to train through, and if there would be any benefit to that.

Side note: the 1911 was supposed to be a present to myself for my dental school graduation coming up here in May, but I may hold off. I just didn't find it enjoyable to shoot, which means I wouldn't end up shooting it.

My thoughts here.

One: collecting guns won't help you shoot better,but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with buying a .45 Auto 1911 for the art of it.

Two: He-Man machismo won't cure elbow tendinitis, fix a worn out pistol, or fill a wallet emptied by 45 Auto/10mm ammo fees.

Three: It's always more macho to hit what you're shooting then to make a lot of noise for effect.

[DocSabo40]

Well shoot, this leaves me with literally no reason to get my new .45 1911 then. I thought about a 9mm build, but I just can't do it. Granted I haven't fired a really nice one, but the Springfield that I shot I found less enjoyable than my current 9s.

Thanks for the breakdown Gardone. I think that's what my problem really is. I can shoot a 9mm at an acceptable level (low-mid IDPA master, 7ish FAST) but I feel like I got totally owned by the .45 and it has totally offended my machismo! I feel like I need to train to where I can shoot the .45 like my 9s, for no other reason than that I cannot currently do it.

[LSP552]

Well shoot, this leaves me with literally no reason to get my new .45 1911 then. I thought about a 9mm build, but I just can't do it. Granted I haven't fired a really nice one, but the Springfield that I shot I found less enjoyable than my current 9s.

Thanks for the breakdown Gardone. I think that's what my problem really is. I can shoot a 9mm at an acceptable level (low-mid IDPA master, 7ish FAST) but I feel like I got totally owned by the .45 and it has totally offended my machismo! I feel like I need to train to where I can shoot the .45 like my 9s, for no other reason than that I cannot currently do it.

Dude, you have to tell us you needed an excuse for a new blaster.....

I made an honest assessment of my ability many years ago with the P220 vs P226 debate. I've carried and shot both pretty extensively over the years. During a time when I had free access to shoot as much .45 ACP as I wanted, I could never equal my accuracy and certainly not my speed with the P220. I finally sold those and stayed 9mm.

Fun guns are one thing, but I just don't see a real benefit as a recoil training tool.

[DocGKR]

I have noted when I shoot a .40 or .45 M&P for a bit and go back to a 9 mm M&P I have much better recoil control. Same thing occurs when I go from a .40 Glock back to a 9 mm Glock. I think shooting the .40/.45 occasionally keeps me from getting too sloppy with the easier 9 mm and mandates better recoil control technique, as well as a more solid grip.

The reverse is also true--sometimes shooting a .22 M&P is useful when working just on trigger control, footwork, rapidly sequencing through multiple targets, or other such techniques where recoil control is not the issue.

[spinmove_]

So it sounds like the gist of the message here is "occasionally shoot with .40/.45 and occasionally shoot with .22, but most definitely stick with 9mm for the vast majority of your shooting".

So it sounds like I should invest in a G22 or G23. What is the preferred .22LR solution for the Glock platform? It'd be awesome if Glock would come out with the G44 which is G19 sized and chambered in .22LR...


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[JHC]

My hunch is that to recognize an actual benefit as Doc described, it requires more work than just taking it along to the range every so often and re-trying it out with a box of shells. It should probably be a cycle of at minimum a few hundred rounds to create the training effect. Mostly just spit ballin' here but I think I've seen this myelf.

[GJM]

Alternatively, if you just want training benefit, buy some Lawman 115+P and shoot it through your Glock 19 -- it will feel about like .40 in a Glock 22/35.

[JHC]

Alternatively, if you just want training benefit, buy some Lawman 115+P and shoot it through your Glock 19 -- it will feel about like .40 in a Glock 22/35.

And no new gun? No new gun. :confused:

[JCS]

On the flip side I have been shooting a lot of reloads. I didn't realize how much less recoil they had than my carry ammo. I shot some of my carry ammo and it felt like a different caliber.

I think I need to work up a load that mimics my carry stuff.

[spinmove_]

Isn't Federal American Eagle loaded to HST specs? Isn't Lawman loaded to Gold Dot specs? Maybe I should simply be spending a couple extra bucks and run 147gr. practice and training ammo instead of Winchester or Freedom 115gr. weaksauce ammo?


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[CCT125US]

Prior to finding this place, I did a small amount (15k) of shooting through a .40 sub compact. It taught me recoil control, and what I had to do in order to manage it. I wouldn't recommend buying a "trainer" for this purpose, but it was just where I was at on my journey. As suggested, +P, and / or stricter time standards would be easier and less expensive. If you are able to track your sights in recoil, try different grip techniques and ways of placing pressure / control over the gun. Watch the height and direction of the recoil and see what yields the best results. If you have access to a weopon mounted laser, it can do the same thing by tracking the dot.

[GJM]

$209/1,000


http://sgammo.com/product/speer/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-speer-lawman-115-grain-tmj-ammo-53650


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[DocSabo40]

1776 I did that same thing a while back and ended bumping up my reloads to approximate my HST carry ammo, though still not quite that hot. I saw some load data on VV's website that pushes a 147gr to 177PF. Pretty crazy how hot 9mm can get these days.

I really appreciate the input on this from everyone. I may train for recoil management with a macho caliber, but I'm not going to order my 1911 in it. I thought about this a lot last night. It would be silly to relegate my new blaster to safe duty right off the bat, just because I ordered it in a caliber that I don't actually enjoy. I did think of a way to preserve my manliness and possibly stay in JMB's good graces though: 9mm/38 super combo.

[JHC]

$209/1,000


http://sgammo.com/product/speer/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-speer-lawman-115-grain-tmj-ammo-53650


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Is that the load you mentioned as +P? I've shot thousands of it since taking your reco on it a year ago. Good stuff. I could tell it was on the warmer side, didn't realize to +P.

Side note, I was shocked this weekend to see how the Tula I also tried from SGammo ($152/1000) performed at 25 yds. Pretty solid cheapo stuff.

[GJM]

Is that the load you mentioned as +P? I've shot thousands of it since taking your reco on it a year ago. Good stuff. I could tell it was on the warmer side, didn't realize to +P.

Side note, I was shocked this weekend to see how the Tula I also tried from SGammo ($152/1000) performed at 25 yds. Pretty solid cheapo stuff.

In my experience, PMC is one of the lowest power factor "good" shooter loads, AE 124 and 147 in the middle of power factor, and Lawman at the high end. Here is PCC chrono numbers from yesterday thru my MPX.

MPX 147 Lawman 1,085
MPX 115 PMC 1,238

The Lawman 147 calculates to 159.5 power factor, but feels like .22 in the MPX.

[spinmove_]

Looks like I did a good thing by getting that case of Lawman on my last order. I was wondering why I was seemingly slower lately...


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[YVK]

$209/1,000


http://sgammo.com/product/speer/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-speer-lawman-115-grain-tmj-ammo-53650


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That's my regular practice ammo, the one you saw me shoot .19 spits out of a P30. Think I am ready for the food court?

[GJM]

That's my regular practice ammo, the one you saw me shoot .19 spits out of a P30. Think I am ready for the food court?

As long as the bad guys are sized like they regularly eat at the food court. :)

[45dotACP]

Alternatively, if you just want training benefit, buy some Lawman 115+P and shoot it through your Glock 19 -- it will feel about like .40 in a Glock 22/35.
Dude freaking A. That stuff is snappy as hell. I only have one box left of a case I bought a few months ago...

Decently accurate though.


I never saw the benefits of training on a gun with more recoil personally...I suspect nobody else does either...Otherwise all the top shooters would be training with G43s, G27s or Shields in .40

[GJM]

I never saw the benefits of training on a gun with more recoil personally...I suspect nobody else does either...Otherwise all the top shooters would be training with G43s, G27s or Shields in .40

Timmies often live in a parallel universe.

[MistWolf]

Well shoot, this leaves me with literally no reason to get my new .45 1911 then. I thought about a 9mm build, but I just can't do it. Granted I haven't fired a really nice one, but the Springfield that I shot I found less enjoyable than my current 9s.

Thanks for the breakdown Gardone. I think that's what my problem really is. I can shoot a 9mm at an acceptable level (low-mid IDPA master, 7ish FAST) but I feel like I got totally owned by the .45 and it has totally offended my machismo! I feel like I need to train to where I can shoot the .45 like my 9s, for no other reason than that I cannot currently do it.

Shoot what you like to shoot. Shooting is supposed to be an enjoyable past time, not torture. If you want a 1911 in 45 ACP, it's possible to develop a soft shooting load and to tune the pistol to run reliably with it. A good softball load is a 185 gr bullet at about 900 fps. It's also easier on the pistol

[jwperry]

In my experience, PMC is one of the lowest power factor "good" shooter loads, AE 124 and 147 in the middle of power factor, and Lawman at the high end. Here is PCC chrono numbers from yesterday thru my MPX.

MPX 147 Lawman 1,085
MPX 115 PMC 1,238

The Lawman 147 calculates to 159.5 power factor, but feels like .22 in the MPX.

What barrel length MPX?

[GRV]

Alternatively, if you just want training benefit, buy some Lawman 115+P and shoot it through your Glock 19 -- it will feel about like .40 in a Glock 22/35.


$209/1,000


http://sgammo.com/product/speer/1000-round-case-9mm-luger-speer-lawman-115-grain-tmj-ammo-53650


Sent from my iPhone


Is that the load you mentioned as +P? I've shot thousands of it since taking your reco on it a year ago. Good stuff. I could tell it was on the warmer side, didn't realize to +P.

Side note, I was shocked this weekend to see how the Tula I also tried from SGammo ($152/1000) performed at 25 yds. Pretty solid cheapo stuff.

Man...I was a little excited until I clicked that link.

Speer does make a Lawman 115gr +P, but this is not it. I have only seen it under the Lawman CleanFire brand. It is more expensive, but what has held me back from trying it is the lead-free primer thing and the potential risk to Glock's already fragile breechface..... I was hoping you knew about a non-CleanFire version :(

http://www.targetsportsusa.com/speer-lawman-cleanfire-9mm-115-grain-p-ammo-tmj-53691-p-59011.aspx

I shoot only Lawman 115gr in practice, with the goal of matching the 124gr +P Gold Dot as closely as possible mainly in recoil but also in drop. The last time I shot them side by side I found that there is definitely a noticeable difference, but that they were close enough out of a G17 that I didn't find switching between them jarring in any way nor effecting my shooting. I count that as a success, given that Lawman is affordable and good ammo otherwise.

I have shot other people's pansy 9mm factory training loads and have been shocked how easy recoiling it is and definitely found it to be beneficial to ability. Other people have also shot my gun and ammo and bitched about how snappy it is.

So all in all, I'd say that there is definitely a benefit to using Lawman 115gr to keep a check on your recoil control abilities, particularly if you need to mimic a harsher recoiling duty/carry round on the cheap, but I do not think Lawman 115gr is .40 territory nor affords anyone any other macho claims. The power factor is only 138, and the 124gr +P definitely has a chunkier feel to it. Weight and velocity (not to mention burn time, blah, blah) are independent axes it seems.

FWIW, when Lawman 115gr is not available, I have gone for Sellior & Bellot 115gr which felt much the same. I haven't tried the heavier Lawman yet. I've been saving a few rounds of various ammos and one day I'll have to get around to a big side-by-side test....


ETA: I guess I should say that a few years ago I shot Lawman 115gr and Gold Dot 124gr +P side by side through a G19 in a class, maybe even with mixed mags, and didn't notice the difference at all. I also shot someone's P226 in .40 that day with whatever training ammo and found it to be very easy recoiling, i.e. I didn't notice anything significantly different from the 9mm. So, yea, if you're comparing different calibers across different gun sizes, maybe it's possible to play this game more successfully. But, if the goal is to reap training benefits, I can't imagine that the benefits of more realistic or harsher recoil could ever make up for the drawbacks of training with a gun that is physically different from your carry/duty gun....

[jeep45238]

Right before I enlisted I sold off everything, and bought a G23 and a .22 kit for it. Logic being that I can dedicate to one platform, and get a 9mm barrel for it for most of my shooting, second to .22lr. Standard .40 for carry, since that's how the gun came, and also use .40 to "proof" my grip. The .357 compatibility with a barrel was also a bonus for me, but that's a different discussion.

I got some benefit out of shooting several hundred rounds of .40 through it after working with .22lr. However, the problems exasperated themselves in my grip and wound up doing the opposite of what I was wanting to do. I wound up gripping so damn hard without realizing it that I would get failures to feed (as in, round didn't climb the magazine to get to the feed lips). I also noticed that the pistol still moved around a LOT in my hands after firing, based off target groups (multiple strings, same target pattern, 1st target had TIGHT groups, the rest - no). Winds up the .40 glock just confirmed, hardcore what the 34/19/17 hinted at - they just don't work well for my hands.

I decided after that to just dedicate to 9mm instead of having a 4-calibers-in-1 pistol. I haven't looked back since dedicating to one caliber (and in my case metal frames due to the mag crushing mentioned before). These days I took some advice to heart I found on this forum - practice is warp speed, matches go subconscious. I took this to dryfire as well, and it's a serious workout to go more than 15 minutes of straight dryfire.

[GJM]

What barrel length MPX?

16

[GJM]

I have a bunch of Lawman 115, that has little stickers on it, saying it is loaded to +P pressure.

In any event, perceived recoil is partly pure power factor and partly concussion. All things equal, 115 will have more concussion in 9mm than 147. Lawman 147 feels much softer shooting to me than Lawman 115.

If you think Lawman only feels about like 124+P Gold Dot, and that isn't snappier than what you normally shoot, I am not sure what to say.

[ST911]

The standard pressure Lawman 115 (53650) isn't the light training ball many others in that weight class are. It can be a little brisk (and concussive, yes) for many in small guns, and it will more reliably cycle a wonky semi-auto or SMG than other 115s will. I find the 53650 closer to the 124 +P GDHP than the Lawman 124 (53651) is, but not equal. I, too find the 147 (53620) to be softer shooting than the 115.

[GRV]

I have a bunch of Lawman 115, that has little stickers on it, saying it is loaded to +P pressure.

In any event, perceived recoil is partly pure power factor and partly concussion. All things equal, 115 will have more concussion in 9mm than 147. Lawman 147 feels much softer shooting to me than Lawman 115.

If you think Lawman only feels about like 124+P Gold Dot, and that isn't snappier than what you normally shoot, I am not sure what to say.

Interesting, can you post a picture of that? I've shot about 20k rounds of Lawman 115gr over the past 2 years and I don't think I've ever seen that. If there's a hotter plain Lawman, I want it :cool:

Sorry, I think we're talking past each other a little. I'm on the same page; I like Lawman 115gr a lot and definitely think it is more robust as far as training cartridges go, closer to Gold Dot 124gr than anything else I've tried, and that both of those are definitely snappier than shitty generic 9mm training ball.

I agree that power factor is only part of the game. I'm curious, how do you find Lawman 115 to compare to a USPSA major load in handling? My thought was that despite it being snappy for 9mm training ammo, that a typical USPSA .40 load would still kick more, but I don't have any experience.


The standard pressure Lawman 115 (53650) isn't the light training ball many others in that weight class are. It can be a little brisk (and concussive, yes) for many in small guns, and it will more reliably cycle a wonky semi-auto or SMG than other 115s will. I find the 53650 closer to the 124 +P GDHP than the Lawman 124 (53651) is, but not equal. I, too find the 147 (53620) to be softer shooting than the 115.

That matches up very well with things that I've observed and things I've been told.

[GJM]

The Lawman with those stickers is a few states away, but I will try to remember to snap a photo next time I am there.

Very hard to compare 115+P in a G19 to a much heavier weighing 2011 .40 with special major match loads -- but the 2011 is easier to shoot.

I think it is all relative. With dry firing, it is easier to cheat your grip compared to live fire. With 130 PF reloads it is easier to cheat your grip than with Gold Dot 124+P or Lawman 115. A Glock 23 ups the grip required. Further grip required with .45 Super. Smith 329 with Garrett, more grip and pain yet.

[vcdgrips]

Late to the party...again. With the exception of Gunsite in 2007, my standard training regimen is to shoot my G35 in the morning ( 180 G Lawman), thru lunch, a bit beyond and then shift to an otherwise identical G34. (various mostly 115 grain fodder and 4.3-4.4 of 231 w/ 124 g Berry or Rainier) Some of the drivers to that pattern were:
1. Ammo availability
2. Learning "recoil control" to apply to the G34
3. Such application made me a better shooter on various tests/quals. using the G34

Bottom Line: IMHO, there is some benefit to training with a higher recoiling pistol and then transitioning to a similar , less recoiling platform.

YMMV

[Caballoflaco]

What does the collective think about Winchester nato 124gr compared to gold dot +p 124 and the lawman 115 recoil wise.

Edited for clarity.

[PNWTO]

What does the collective think about Winchester nato 124gr compared to gold dot +p 124 and the lawman 115?

Don't have the exact pressures/numbers off the cuff, but the NATO load is not as warm as +P loadings. Plus, the NATO is a FMJ, so it is range ammo for me.

[Paul Sharp]

Is there any benefit to having a pistol with significantly more recoil that your primary carry gun, for training purposes?

Previously I thought there was a benefit to learning recoil management through shooting stouter calibers. It seemed to make sense as going from a 10mm to a 9mm made the 9mm feel like a 22.

I think it was around 2009 I started to study kinesthetic learning as it applies to shooting and I realized I was doing it all wrong. I had used this for other skills in the past but never thought applying the same approach to shooting. Shortly after that I developed the exercises I use now to tune up my recoil control and it works much better. The problem with shooting a hotter round is the firing cycle of the pistol happens too fast for us to get any meaningful feedback. Grip it harder is good advice, but grip it harder in the right places while directing pressure in the optimal directions is better advice. Most folks learn that through a series of kinesthetically learning based exercises.

[BaiHu]

Previously I thought there was a benefit to learning recoil management through shooting stouter calibers. It seemed to make sense as going from a 10mm to a 9mm made the 9mm feel like a 22.

I think it was around 2009 I started to study kinesthetic learning as it applies to shooting and I realized I was doing it all wrong. I had used this for other skills in the past but never thought applying the same approach to shooting. Shortly after that I developed the exercises I use now to tune up my recoil control and it works much better. The problem with shooting a hotter round is the firing cycle of the pistol happens too fast for us to get any meaningful feedback. Grip it harder is good advice, but grip it harder in the right places while directing pressure in the optimal directions is better advice. Most folks learn that through a series of kinesthetically learning based exercises.

Do you mind going into some of these exercises?

[Paul Sharp]

Do you mind going into some of these exercises?

I don't mind at all. There are a bunch of clips I posted on the locking elbows threads. A guy posted 14 or 15 clips on YouTube and Mark Luell posted 6 or so. I posted links to those. I think those break it down pretty well. Let me know if those help and if not I'll try to add whatever is missing.

[BaiHu]

I don't mind at all. There are a bunch of clips I posted on the locking elbows threads. A guy posted 14 or 15 clips on YouTube and Mark Luell posted 6 or so. I posted links to those. I think those break it down pretty well. Let me know if those help and if not I'll try to add whatever is missing.
Thanks. I lost sight of that thread.

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[DocSabo40]

Lots of good discussion here. I especially like the part about using hotter ammo for practice. A buddy of mine tried my 229 loaded with HST 147 +p and remarked how heavy the recoil was. I suggested that he try the ammo that was currently in his Glock (HST 124gr) and he was, again, surprised at the recoil. He hadn't shot his carry ammo in months and trains with low powered ammo. He had a different solution than me though: he dropped the HST and started carrying a lighter recoiling load, I think the Barnes 115gr.

As far as the new blaster goes: Keith over at DW came up with a brilliant (and more expensive) solution. He is just going to build my new 1911 in .45 and then build me another complete, matching upper in 9mm.

[randyflycaster]

but grip it harder in the right places while directing pressure in the optimal directions is better advice. Most folks learn that through a series of kinesthetically learning based exercises.

Can you please elaborate on this. What exactly are the right places to apply grip pressure?

Thanks,
Randy

[Paul Sharp]

Can you please elaborate on this. What exactly are the right places to apply grip pressure?

Thanks,
Randy

1) Bottom of the front strap. That's the part that wants to lift on recoil.

2) Top of the back strap as close to the slide as possible.

Squeezing the side panels plays a role but not a primary role. If you set the brakes on a truck it will still have some creep. Throw a set of chocks around the tires and it won't move. It we chock the bottom of the front strap and top of the back strap, which is where the gun lifts and pivots, we'll minimize movement. Only relying on grip pressure on the side panels is like only relying on the calipers and pads to grip the brakes.

[randyflycaster]

Paul,
Thanks so much. I hear so much about grip pressure, but few folks describe how they apply it.
Randy

[Paul Sharp]

Paul,
Thanks so much. I hear so much about grip pressure, but few folks describe how they apply it.
Randy

You're welcome, hope it helps.

[deputyG23]

On the flip side I have been shooting a lot of reloads. I didn't realize how much less recoil they had than my carry ammo. I shot some of my carry ammo and it felt like a different caliber.

I think I need to work up a load that mimics my carry stuff.

Try BE-86 powder if you want to duplicate service/carry ammo velocity and recoil. I have successfully done so with .40 180 grain loads and 124 grain +P 9mm.