Buffers and Springs

[23JAZ]

Sprinco Blue spring and a Spikes ST-T2 buffer to smooth out an M&P 15. What do ya'll think?

[orionz06]

What is it doing that makes you think it needs smoothed out?


I always keep one of each buffer on hand to see what happens, a few springs on hand won't hurt either, but there are lots of variables.

[blues]

I put a Damage Industries chrome silicon (http://damageindustries.co/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=409) in my M&P15 and it's great. (And very inexpensive.) They seem to go on sale pretty often as well.

[23JAZ]

What is it doing that makes you think it needs smoothed out?


I always keep one of each buffer on hand to see what happens, a few springs on hand won't hurt either, but there are lots of variables.
Nothing really I just fried a guy's rifle at the range and it's seamed to cycle a lot smoother than mine. The only difference between the 2 rifles were those two components. Mine eats whatever ammo I put through it so I really don't want to do anything drastic to it. But if swapping those two parts lets me keep the same reliability and smooths it out I'm thinking it's a go. I guess what I'm asking is if doing this has any downsides?

[blues]

Nothing really I just fried a guy's rifle at the range and it's seamed to cycle a lot smoother than mine. The only difference between the 2 rifles were those two components. Mine eats whatever ammo I put through it so I really don't want to do anything drastic to it. But if swapping those two parts lets me keep the same reliability and smooths it out I'm thinking it's a go. I guess what I'm asking is if doing this has any downsides?

I'd start with the spring and see if you feel a need to make any additional changes. I still have the OEM buffer.
I didn't even really need to change the spring but I do notice that it is both smoother and even quieter than it already was.

[orionz06]

Nothing really I just fried a guy's rifle at the range and it's seamed to cycle a lot smoother than mine. The only difference between the 2 rifles were those two components. Mine eats whatever ammo I put through it so I really don't want to do anything drastic to it. But if swapping those two parts lets me keep the same reliability and smooths it out I'm thinking it's a go. I guess what I'm asking is if doing this has any downsides?

I'd grab the standard buffers, H, H2, etc, and a few springs just to have. Try them all and see where you land between smoothness and reliability.

[23JAZ]

Ordered the sprinco white standard spring and blue enhanced. My buddy has an H and an H2 I can try so I ordered the Spikes ST-T2 to give it a try. The listed weight has it in between an H and an H2 so I'm curious if it might be in the sweet spot. Especially since I've been known to shoot some weak Wolf and Tula.

Thanks for the advice!

[Shawn Dodson]

Chances are your rifle is intentionally overgassed so it will function with lower pressure .223 loads. The best way to address the problem is with an adjustable gas block, preferrably one from SLR Rifleworks. It allows you to reduce the volume of gas ported to your BCG, which reduces BCG velocity , recoil and muzzle jump. A heavier buffer increases reciprocating mass which increases muzzle jump.

Brass ejected from your rifle should not strike the brass deflector on the upper receiver.

Weaker ammo may not properly cycle your rifle if you install a heavier buffer.

[ASH556]

Buffers and springs are bandaids and snake oil. Adjustable gas blocks are an unnecessary failure point at one of the most critical points of keeping it a semi-automatic rifle. If it runs, leave it alone. If you want it to shoot flatter, screw on a comp/brake. If you want to change components, buy a barrel with a correctly-sized gas port.

[John Hearne]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8boc8aFgfT8

[Shawn Dodson]

Buffers and springs are bandaids and snake oil.

BINGO! But they are easy to replace and have some effect hence their popularity.


Adjustable gas blocks are an unnecessary failure point at one of the most critical points of keeping it a semi-automatic rifle.

Once an adjustable gas block is set you don't fuck with it (unless you swap back and forth between shooting with or without a suppressor).

The gas port on the (non-adjustable) MicroMOA Baby Govnah gas block ($30) can be easily drilled to whatever diameter works best on a rifle but it takes a little time and effort. It requires a cordless hand drill, a set of bits, and a little trial and error and can be accomplished on the shooting bench at the range.


If you want it to shoot flatter, screw on a comp/brake. I haven't found one that really works.

[M2CattleCo]

Buffers and springs are bandaids and snake oil. Adjustable gas blocks are an unnecessary failure point at one of the most critical points of keeping it a semi-automatic rifle. If it runs, leave it alone. If you want it to shoot flatter, screw on a comp/brake. If you want to change components, buy a barrel with a correctly-sized gas port.

This.

Springs that can rust won't be in my carbine. I use Colt springs and H2 buffers in my three 16" Colts.

[MistWolf]

I find the utility of the adjustable gas block outweighs it's minor potential as a failure point. Getting a barrel with the correct gas port diameter is the right way to do it but doing so is often easier said than done.

An AR requires a certain amount of momentum developed within a minimum and maximum carrier speed. That means the mass needed is pretty well fixed. It's best to start with that mass then adjust gas flow (either by using the right diameter gas port or an adjustable gas block with a slightly oversized gas port) and spring rate to get the right speed

[KeeFus]

Necropost

I’m relatively new to working on ARs. I bought a used carbine M&P 15 which shoots fine and is very accurate. I noticed last week that it was throwing the brass between 1 and 2 o’clock. I cleaned it well and noticed that the gas rings were very loose so I checked them as I was shown in the Army by standing the bolt and carrier up on the bolt...it collapsed. I replaced the gas rings and while replacing things replaced the extractor spring, silicon insert, and o-ring (all those were bought from BCM).

Today I shot it again and it still deposits the brass between 1 & 2 o’clock. Looking at the buffer, the face seems beat to hell. I ordered a new “H” buffer (currently has a carbine buffer) and spring from BCM today. Otherwise this gun runs well. No other problems. Depending on which video you watch or publication you read you may or may not have a problem.

Am I overthinking this?

[MistWolf]

Don't worry about ejection pattern. How the recoil feels is much more informative. If the buffer hits hard against the back of the RE, recoil will feel sharp. It's a sign the carrier is moving too fast. You're on the right track by installing new springs and an H buffer. If recoil is still sharp, check the gas port diameter.

[MSparks909]

Necropost

I’m relatively new to working on ARs. I bought a used carbine M&P 15 which shoots fine and is very accurate. I noticed last week that it was throwing the brass between 1 and 2 o’clock. I cleaned it well and noticed that the gas rings were very loose so I checked them as I was shown in the Army by standing the bolt and carrier up on the bolt...it collapsed. I replaced the gas rings and while replacing things replaced the extractor spring, silicon insert, and o-ring (all those were bought from BCM).

Today I shot it again and it still deposits the brass between 1 & 2 o’clock. Looking at the buffer, the face seems beat to hell. I ordered a new “H” buffer (currently has a carbine buffer) and spring from BCM today. Otherwise this gun runs well. No other problems. Depending on which video you watch or publication you read you may or may not have a problem.

Am I overthinking this?

I’m usually a fan of H2 buffers in 16” carbine gasser ARs but the H should work fine.

[Unobtanium]

I find regular carbine and rifle mil-spec springs unreliable in actual practice, and prefer the Sprinco Blue (carbine), or Sprinco Green (for A5/Rifle), and then I find the heaviest buffer that will run PMC .223 on a clean, well-lubed gun, just BARELY, and then back off 1 buffer weight.

[entropy]

Here’s something that might help. A while back I was trying to tune a pistol upper and found it helpful.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7e/ce/23/7ece239117706b9926754d531edabdba.jpg

24718

[MistWolf]

The ejection chart is a poor indicator of gas drive. There are too many variables involved, such as extractor and ejector spring strength, both of which will change the ejection pattern. The right way to tune an AR is by using the lock back check and how the recoil feels. I'll have to double check, but when I was tuning the upper with the adjustable gas block, I don't think I ever got an ejection pattern further back than 4 o'clock, even when it was undergassed. By undergassed, I mean the rifle would eject but not lock back. Closing the gas another click from there resulted in to extraction at all. The set up was carbine RE and tested with carbine, H and H2 buffers with a Colt factory action spring. The result was the same when testing an A5 RE annd A5H2 buffer and Sprinco green spring.

Using a heavier buffer to fix an over gassed AR is useless if the gas flow isn't corrected by using the right gas port diameter or an adjustable gas block.

[Leroy]

I find regular carbine and rifle mil-spec springs unreliable in actual practice, and prefer the Sprinco Blue (carbine), or Sprinco Green (for A5/Rifle), and then I find the heaviest buffer that will run PMC .223 on a clean, well-lubed gun, just BARELY, and then back off 1 buffer weight.

You have feeding issues with Mil-Spec springs?

[Unobtanium]

You have feeding issues with Mil-Spec springs?

Yes, failure to chamber rounds. Multiple weapons, over half a decade of usage, finally figured it out. No more milspec action springs, no more issues.

[Leroy]

Yes, failure to chamber rounds. Multiple weapons, over half a decade of usage, finally figured it out. No more milspec action springs, no more issues.
I don't shoot a lot of AR. Is this an issue as the gun gets really dirty or is it more along the lines of shoot enough rounds and you will eventually have it happen? Does the mil-spec spring have a low round service life?

[Unobtanium]

I don't shoot a lot of AR. Is this an issue as the gun gets really dirty or is it more along the lines of shoot enough rounds and you will eventually have it happen? Does the mil-spec spring have a low round service life?

The guns weren't particularly dirty in one case, in another, it was a bit, but it had no issues on the recoil stroke, just clambering. All the issues were with charging the weapons or using the bolt release. Any grit in the mags or any issues, and it fails to strip a round.

[Leroy]

The guns weren't particularly dirty in one case, in another, it was a bit, but it had no issues on the recoil stroke, just clambering. All the issues were with charging the weapons or using the bolt release. Any grit in the mags or any issues, and it fails to strip a round.

Thanks for the info.

[ASH556]

I find regular carbine and rifle mil-spec springs unreliable in actual practice, and prefer the Sprinco Blue (carbine), or Sprinco Green (for A5/Rifle), and then I find the heaviest buffer that will run PMC .223 on a clean, well-lubed gun, just BARELY, and then back off 1 buffer weight.

Not trying to be combative, but do you know what brand "mil-spec" springs you had issues with? How many are we talking? It's just my experience that many "mil-spec" parts really aren't. Beyond that, I've never experienced what you're describing with "failure to chamber" due to spring weakness. Usually, increased recoil is a huge indicator, confirmed by measured short length, but the only time I've seen a gun fail to chamber where the mags, chamber, bolt, and gas system checked out otherwise good, was with a JP captured buffer that was adjusted too short. Swapped in an H buffer and the gun ran like a scalded dog.

[Unobtanium]

Not trying to be combative, but do you know what brand "mil-spec" springs you had issues with? How many are we talking? It's just my experience that many "mil-spec" parts really aren't. Beyond that, I've never experienced what you're describing with "failure to chamber" due to spring weakness. Usually, increased recoil is a huge indicator, confirmed by measured short length, but the only time I've seen a gun fail to chamber where the mags, chamber, bolt, and gas system checked out otherwise good, was with a JP captured buffer that was adjusted too short. Swapped in an H buffer and the gun ran like a scalded dog.
Vltor, Colt, Daniel Defense, Noveske, if I recall accurately. One of or all of, I'm not sure which, it's been a few years, but they weren't bubba's bargain basket grab alls.

Lengths measured mid to upper end of spec. Buffers were all H or heavier. Mags used were PMAG and L5AWM.

I've gone round and round with people on the internet about this, but in the real world it's an issue for me, and I've fixed it by using sprinco springs. The guns involved were factory noveske and a daniel defense with a5.

[JohnO]

Mike Pannone wrote an article on M4 reliability and it contains really good spring & buffer info.

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

[That Guy]

Hmm. I've had failures to feed with two stock 6920's using specific, brand new and right out of the package, Brownells magazines. I wonder if a heavier action spring might have shoved those rounds completely into the chamber? (All rounds fed and chambered just fine eventually, so it is not an ammunition problem. Changing to known good magazines, the guns have worked fine. And yes, within the U.S.A. the answer would be to trash the problematic magazines and get more Pmags. Due to various reasons related to my location such as magazine prices and availability, possible future legislation, I'd be interested to know if this drop in parts change recommended by some would make my unreliable magazines into reliable ones.)

Sprinco springs seem to be unavailable for non-U.S. buyers. Would something offered by Wolff Gunsprings be an equally recommended upgrade?

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[MSparks909]

Are the Brownells mags still giving you problems? I’ve got about 50 and have yet to have an issue with any of them. And they get rotated through fairly frequently. You can probably go with a Wolff XP Buffer Spring and have the same effect as a Sprinco Blue.

[That Guy]

Are the Brownells mags still giving you problems?

Yup. Got a batch of their tactical (that's what the product description said) magazines too, because discount and optimism (hey, it said "tactical" so it must be better, right? :) ). I've only managed to fill to capacity and empty four of those, and only once, but one gave me a bunch of failures to feed. (The three others were fine. Typically, if the magazine goes through 30 rounds once, it seems to be okay at least for training use.)

I might give that spring a try. I hate having only one type of magazine that I feel I can trust. (The local retail price of +$30 per Pmag doesn't help... I do buy my Pmags at discount too, but there are fewer opportunities to do so than with aluminium magazines.)

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[KeeFus]

H buffer and new carbine buffer spring replaced as well as a new BCM bolt upgrade kit. Same ejection pattern around 1:00.

Heavier Spring?

[Shawn Dodson]

The best setup is to use the heaviest spring with the lightest buffer combination that functions reliably in your gun.

Direction of ejection is also heavily influenced by your BCG. Swap a BCG from a gun that ejects at 3-4 o'clock and see if the direction of ejection changes. (I have a BCM upper that ejects at 1 o'clock with a Spike's Tactical NiB M16 BCG but when a Colt M16 BCG is installed it ejects at 3:30)

For a target or hunting rifle I don't care if it ejects at 1 o'clock but I want a fighting gun to eject brass behind me so when I'm shooting around barricades it doesn't bounce off the barricade and back into my face.

[MSparks909]

H buffer and new carbine buffer spring replaced as well as a new BCM bolt upgrade kit. Same ejection pattern around 1:00.

Heavier Spring?

16” carbine gassed ARs tens to be a little overgassed. If you want to tinker more buy an extra tungsten buffer weight or two and convert your H1 into a H2 or H3 buffer. Easy to do. I’m running H2 buffer in my Colt 6920s FWIW.

I used to obsess about ejection patterns and whatnot but I kind of gave up on that as long as the gun runs well with my preferred H/H2 buffer setups. I run a H buffer in my SR-15 Mod 2 and it won’t cycle steel cased .223 ammo. It will run brass cased .223 and obviously brass cased 5.56 pressure ammo and it ejects to ~2 o’clock. I’ve also got a 16” BCM Middy and a 16” DD Middy, both with the VLTOR A5 kit (5.2 oz A5H2 buffers) and they also eject to ~2 o’clock. Go figure, my Colt 6920/H2 combos are the only ones that eject to 3-4 o’clock.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

Lat year when Geissele announced the release of the Super 42 braided buffer spring and buffer, they did a live streaming video announcement. I remember pirating the WiFi from a Home Depot parking lot to watch it while working mids.

When Bill was describing the intended applications for the Super 42 I specifically remember him talking about the 16" barreled AR with a carbine gas system and how harsh the cycling was in that configuration. He said the Super 42 would be ideal in that application.

I am trying to avoid Middies and A5's moving forwards. That being said, the Super 42 looks like it will have a place in all my rifles. Only pain in the ass part is the $65.00 price tag for a buffer and spring. But like with anything, you get what you pay for.

[WobblyPossum]

Lat year when Geissele announced the release of the Super 42 braided buffer spring and buffer, they did a live streaming video announcement. I remember pirating the WiFi from a Home Depot parking lot to watch it while working mids.

When Bill was describing the intended applications for the Super 42 I specifically remember him talking about the 16" barreled AR with a carbine gas system and how harsh the cycling was in that configuration. He said the Super 42 would be ideal in that application.

I am trying to avoid Middies and A5's moving forwards. That being said, the Super 42 looks like it will have a place in all my rifles. Only pain in the ass part is the $65.00 price tag for a buffer and spring. But like with anything, you get what you pay for.

Just curious why you’re trying to avoid midlength guns with A5 buffers. I love mine.


–————————————————
My posts only represent my opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of my employer. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

[MSparks909]

Lat year when Geissele announced the release of the Super 42 braided buffer spring and buffer, they did a live streaming video announcement. I remember pirating the WiFi from a Home Depot parking lot to watch it while working mids.

When Bill was describing the intended applications for the Super 42 I specifically remember him talking about the 16" barreled AR with a carbine gas system and how harsh the cycling was in that configuration. He said the Super 42 would be ideal in that application.

I am trying to avoid Middies and A5's moving forwards. That being said, the Super 42 looks like it will have a place in all my rifles. Only pain in the ass part is the $65.00 price tag for a buffer and spring. But like with anything, you get what you pay for.

I’ve got the Super 42 setup in a few rifles of mine. Just do a Sprinco Blue/H2 buffer setup in a 16” carbine gassed AR. I’m running the Super 42/H2 in my 11.5” BCM and my 9” BCM 300BLK. There’s no “twang” sound from the buffer tube which is nice. Setup runs fine. I like Geissele stuff so I figured I’d give them a try. But the Sprinco Blue/H2 is a little cheaper.

[Malamute]

The guns weren't particularly dirty in one case, in another, it was a bit, but it had no issues on the recoil stroke, just clambering. All the issues were with charging the weapons or using the bolt release. Any grit in the mags or any issues, and it fails to strip a round.

Interesting. The ARs I used the most were SP1 rifles, an early A2 carbine, and a 90s period H-bar Match, all colt factory guns. I had occasional first rounds in a magazine fail to chamber all the way if the guns were cold or dirty, so started downloading by one or two rounds, and have not had it happen since, so just drove on. Nobody I knew back then talked about changing springs (1980s and early 00's). Overall, ARs have been more functionally reliable than AKs for me. The only failures to function besides first rounds in cold or dirty conditions, was a Colt 20 rd mag dropped loaded on a rock on the feed lips, and a bad batch of commercial reload ammo I was shooting up to get rid of. They ejected what looked like a 380 case, leaving the front half in the chamber. The next round jammed into that case hard enough I could pull the cocking handle and both would come out. I just kept shooting that junk ammo to get rid of it. I think about 1/3 of the rounds were doing it.

When shooting various carbines, it always reminds me of how smooth rifles are to shoot. Maybe I havent shot a carbine thats set up just right, but rifles just seem to be smooth with the basic default rifle spring and buffer. Carbines are practical for in and out of vehicles and such, rifles are just plain fun and enjoyable to shoot. I havent shot carbines and thought they were fun.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

Just curious why you’re trying to avoid midlength guns with A5 buffers.

I like them also. I have owned midlength uppers in the past from Noveske and BCM. I think in a 16" gun the midlength gas system and A5 buffer make a lot of sense.

However, I work for an agency that issues Colt rifles with carbine gas systems and standard buffers. Patrol has 16" guns, ERT has 10.5" guns, and I am issued a 10.5". I am also an armorer and responsible for the maintenance of all these guns. I work with them inside and out. The carbine gas system just works. Especially in standard Colts. My personal guns have become set up this way for familiarity and standardization.

[Unobtanium]

Lat year when Geissele announced the release of the Super 42 braided buffer spring and buffer, they did a live streaming video announcement. I remember pirating the WiFi from a Home Depot parking lot to watch it while working mids.

When Bill was describing the intended applications for the Super 42 I specifically remember him talking about the 16" barreled AR with a carbine gas system and how harsh the cycling was in that configuration. He said the Super 42 would be ideal in that application.

I am trying to avoid Middies and A5's moving forwards. That being said, the Super 42 looks like it will have a place in all my rifles. Only pain in the ass part is the $65.00 price tag for a buffer and spring. But like with anything, you get what you pay for.

I'd rather run a Sprinco Blue than the Super 42. I've tested both for "feel" and under high speed video (240fps) and the 42 wasn't as consistent in my opinion.

[KeeFus]

H buffer and new carbine buffer spring replaced as well as a new BCM bolt upgrade kit. Same ejection pattern around 1:00.

Heavier Spring?

Replaced the GI spring with a Sprinco “RED”, still running the “H” buffer. Brought the ejection to between 2:00-3:00. I’m going to run this set up for awhile and see how it works.

[rob_s]

Necropost

I’m relatively new to working on ARs. I bought a used carbine M&P 15 which shoots fine and is very accurate. I noticed last week that it was throwing the brass between 1 and 2 o’clock. I cleaned it well and noticed that the gas rings were very loose so I checked them as I was shown in the Army by standing the bolt and carrier up on the bolt...it collapsed. I replaced the gas rings and while replacing things replaced the extractor spring, silicon insert, and o-ring (all those were bought from BCM).

Today I shot it again and it still deposits the brass between 1 & 2 o’clock. Looking at the buffer, the face seems beat to hell. I ordered a new “H” buffer (currently has a carbine buffer) and spring from BCM today. Otherwise this gun runs well. No other problems. Depending on which video you watch or publication you read you may or may not have a problem.

Am I overthinking this?

Yes you are overthinking this.

Who would have thought that one day people would be just as concerned, if not more concerned, with the accuracy of the brass as they are the lead.

[rob_s]

Yes, failure to chamber rounds. Multiple weapons, over half a decade of usage, finally figured it out. No more milspec action springs, no more issues.

Less general fiddle fuck, far less issues.

[Unobtanium]

Less general fiddle fuck, far less issues.

Yes, upgraded springs prevent fiddlefuck and reliability problems.

[rob_s]

Yes, upgraded springs prevent fiddlefuck and reliability problems.

Not engaging in fiddle fuck to start with prevents far more issues.

What ever happened to all that Hodge business? I figured you’d have bought a unicorn by now and all your problems would be over.

[Unobtanium]

Not engaging in fiddle fuck to start with prevents far more issues.

What ever happened to all that Hodge business? I figured you’d have bought a unicorn by now and all your problems would be over.

I've had my 14.5 hodge mod 2 for over a year. Did you miss the review? Short answer is that I love it.
You realize i used the sprinco springs to fix factory noveske and daniel defense guns, right?

[jeep45238]

He’s picking and choosing without context to fit his narrative. Who cares.


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[Tensaw]

I’ve got the Super 42 setup in a few rifles of mine. Just do a Sprinco Blue/H2 buffer setup in a 16” carbine gassed AR. I’m running the Super 42/H2 in my 11.5” BCM and my 9” BCM 300BLK. There’s no “twang” sound from the buffer tube which is nice. Setup runs fine. I like Geissele stuff so I figured I’d give them a try. But the Sprinco Blue/H2 is a little cheaper.

Necroing pretty hard here, but at least you have evidence that I use the Search function...

Anywho, I have a 16” 300BO home build that I deer hunt with. I love the thing. Only issue is that it dents the case mouth of the brass. Good ejection at about 4 o’ clock though. I have some tungsten enroute so I can play with buffer weights, but then I foolishly watched Geissele’s 30 minute dissertation on buffer springs while ago. So my question for Mr. Sparks and others who have tried the Super 42 is, is it worth the money? Also, how do we think these would work in something like an 8”or 10.5” 300BO set-up (I have both). Thanks in advance.

[MistWolf]

Necroing pretty hard here, but at least you have evidence that I use the Search function...

Anywho, I have a 16” 300BO home build that I deer hunt with. I love the thing. Only issue is that it dents the case mouth of the brass. Good ejection at about 4 o’ clock though. I have some tungsten enroute so I can play with buffer weights, but then I foolishly watched Geissele’s 30 minute dissertation on buffer springs while ago. So my question for Mr. Sparks and others who have tried the Super 42 is, is it worth the money? Also, how do we think these would work in something like an 8”or 10.5” 300BO set-up (I have both). Thanks in advance.

It will do you no good to fuss with buffer weights & action springs if the extractor, ejector & gas drive isn't right

[Tensaw]

It will do you no good to fuss with buffer weights & action springs if the extractor, ejector & gas drive isn't right

Roger dat. Sooo, at the risk of incurring supreme thread drift, would anyone care to speak to, or point to a resource, as to how to parse out how to know when the extractor, ejector, or gas is running amuck?