Optics for the home defense carbine

[flux]

What optics would you put on an AR dedicated for home defense.

[ASH556]

Aimpoint. Leave it on 24/7/365. Change batteries once a year. Done. Model is up to your budget/preference.

I recently changed from a T1 back to an M2. Both are excellent and equally capable.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/361AE4AA-118E-43EF-881B-226F7B30B969.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/361AE4AA-118E-43EF-881B-226F7B30B969.jpg.html)
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/A0209084-A2DA-4030-8C19-B259A46F96EF.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/A0209084-A2DA-4030-8C19-B259A46F96EF.jpg.html)

[blues]

I went with an Aimpoint H2 in a LaRue QD mount. Not the cheapest solution but one I am very confident in. Plus, with a short, light carbine, I didn't want a larger optic such as the PRO to offset those characteristics.

12783

[LOKNLOD]

Yep. Aimpoint.

I'm still using an older ML2.

[Cookie Monster]

I am using irons but looking forward to getting an RMR one day, a T-2 would be a solid choice though.

[JCS]

I got some good advice in this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21303-Selecting-an-AR-for-home-defense

Ultimately I went with an Aimpoint pro. It was pretty much thd consensus advice that I received.

ETA:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170101/7ecdebe2fd079203850a70a1f188de05.jpg

[El Cid]

I am using irons but looking forward to getting an RMR one day, a T-2 would be a solid choice though.

I use an Aimpoint on my HD rifle. Since you mentioned the RMR I thought I share a personal discovery. I have a rifle with an RMR06 and always thought the auto dim/bright feature was slick. My Aimpoint at an appropriate brightness indoors can easily be washed out by the sun should I need to go outside, requiring me to have the presence of mind to turn it up.

I was trying the RMR rifle inside with some dry fire and noticed that on auto the dot gets nice and dim in dark rooms. However when the weapon light is activated the dot is invisible. Just something to keep in mind if using the auto brightness.

[Shumba]

Aimpoint M4 on my LMT, PRO on my bride's Colt lightweight. Always on.
Surefire lights on both.
Shumba

[orionz06]

Start with an Aimpoint in your price range that has the tube size you like and then go from there.

[ReverendMeat]

Trijicon RMR/AUG A3. Auto-adjust LED, change the batteries how ever often makes you feel good about yourself. I got a good deal on the RMR and it's been solid for years but if price were equal I'd get an Aimpoint micro.

[HCM]

I use an Aimpoint on my HD rifle. Since you mentioned the RMR I thought I share a personal discovery. I have a rifle with an RMR06 and always thought the auto dim/bright feature was slick. My Aimpoint at an appropriate brightness indoors can easily be washed out by the sun should I need to go outside, requiring me to have the presence of mind to turn it up.

I was trying the RMR rifle inside with some dry fire and noticed that on auto the dot gets nice and dim in dark rooms. However when the weapon light is activated the dot is invisible. Just something to keep in mind if using the auto brightness.

This is also something to keep in mimed when selecting the brightness level for your aimpoints.

[blues]

This is also something to keep in mimed when selecting the brightness level for your aimpoints.

I find that 5 or 6 is good for dark of night and still reasonably good for lighted conditions. Plus I can pick up the dot if I employ my white light.

That's where I leave mine set. Always on.

[Clusterfrack]

Trijicon MRO on mine.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170101/58627b9e0b0cc355714a11ef323dc400.jpg

[Montesf1030]

I have a Vortex Sparc II on my AR 9 Pistol ...That's my primary HD combine with my Glock 19 http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170102/0bd93d49f6e3c074054ec9a6553a971f.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[breakingtime91]

Aimpoint pro. Micros are not worth the cost for a HD carbine..

[blues]

Aimpoint pro. Micros are not worth the cost for a HD carbine..

Please just add "in my opinion" to your blanket statement. The worth of a particular optic goes beyond just its price, imho.

If we're going to go down the rabbit hole of arguing what is and isn't worth the price paid there wouldn't be a civil discussion on this site (for very long).

[GJM]

PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine) in USPSA, is a great venue to get a bunch of shooting in with a carbine at home defense distances. It is also an interesting place to sort out how different optics work in the muzzle to 35 yard envelope.

[breakingtime91]

Please just add "in my opinion" to your blanket statement. The worth of a particular optic goes beyond just its price, imho.

If we're going to go down the rabbit hole of arguing what is and isn't worth the price paid there wouldn't be a civil discussion on this site (for very long).

Sorry I wont, but I think I get where your coming from. 30mm aimpoints are their most proven and battle tested optic, micros seem to be fine also. Micros are light and look high speed, they also have a narrowed field of view and demand almost 2x the cost. What reasons besides weight, which for most of us (civilians or FAGS) doesn't matter anymore, does a micro add? I know the T2 looks pretty good behind a magnifier but that is about it.

[blues]

Sorry I wont, but I think I get where your coming from. 30mm aimpoints are their most proven and battle tested optic, micros seem to be fine also. Micros are light and look high speed, they also have a narrowed field of view and demand almost 2x the cost. What reasons besides weight, which for most of us (civilians or FAGS) doesn't matter anymore, does a micro add? I know the T2 looks pretty good behind a magnifier but that is about it.

The weight and balance matter to me. I train with both eyes open so I work on my FOV and peripheral vision. I can afford a micro and the difference in price at the time I bought from LaRue compared to what the PRO was going for was insignificant when the time frame I hope to own it for was factored in, let alone the cost of ammunition over various periods of time.

The clarity of the optic (the H2 has brighter and truer color, (I forget the correct term) updated coatings and electronics compared to the PRO and earlier micros) etc.

In the end we can argue all day about what makes one gun, optic, knife, pack, holster etc worth more to an individual whether in some measurable way or as a matter of opinion.

Whether you agree or not, and I respect your opinion, it's still your opinion and not some ironclad law. In my personal opinion, the amount more I paid for the H2 over the PRO (which I had ordered and canceled) was worth it. I still think the PRO is a great optic. I simply chose the one which was right for me.

No hard feelings whether you agree with me or not and it's not my intent to derail the discussion further.

[Paul Sharp]

Start with an Aimpoint in your price range that has the tube size you like and then go from there.

This and I'd offer similar advice if one wants to try any of the 1x4/6 type optics.

I prefer a 1x4 on my rifles whether it's designated as a home defense rifle or for other purposes.

[Phrog107]

I'm a fan of the Aimpoint PRO/CompM3 series.

The carbine I have set up for my wife (11.5" BCM) has an Aimpoint Pro. That said, my current HD carbine (16" BCM) does not have an optic on it. My HD carbine sacrificed it's Aimpoint to go on the 11.5" BCM, and it's more important for my wife to have it than me. I don't notice a major difference in speed or accuracy between an Aimpont and Irons when I am practicing < 10 yards. Beyond 15 yards is a very different story.

[HCM]

We use H-1s at work but I'm partial to the 30mm tube aimpoints, particularly the Comp M4.

[rob_s]

Please just add "in my opinion" to your blanket statement. The worth of a particular optic goes beyond just its price, imho.

If we're going to go down the rabbit hole of arguing what is and isn't worth the price paid there wouldn't be a civil discussion on this site (for very long).

He said it, its an opinion, anyone with sense can tell that, no need to clutter it up stating the obvious.

And he's right.

[Doublestack45]

Older 4moa t1 micro in a fixed DD mount with 12:00 mounted X300 (non HD) up front. The micro is always set on 8, which is a touch "bloomy" under normal room light conditions but just about perfect for my eyes in a darkened room with the surefire on.

[blues]

It's too late now, but for the past two years LAPG has sold Aimpoint PROs for $360.40 during the Thanksgiving to Christmas consumer whore buying season. It's really hard to pass up a PRO at that price.

I think I've seen comparable prices on optics planet as well when you take advantage of their various promotions and discounts. In fact I found a screaming deal on one there back when I was doing research and comparisons.

[flux]

Any reason to look at a variable, 1-4 or 1-6 if it's only for home defense?

[GMSweet]

Any reason to look at a variable, 1-4 or 1-6 if it's only for home defense?

I'm a never been there, never done that guy, but for some reason I still feel like commenting...take it for what it's worth.

My nearing 44 year old eyes have both have an astigmatism. I don't require glasses full time yet, but I do have a pair that I wear occasionally if my eyes are feeling tired. For me, when looking through a red dot, I typically get a "cluster of grapes" view in the optic. The Aimpoint Pro gave me around a dime sized cluster of dots from the center trailing low right with each "grape" varying in brightness but not too different from the primary dot. The SIG Romeo 4B with the 65MOA circle/2MOA dot gave me an exact duplicate image just offset and overlapping low right at the same brightness. At less than 10 yards for a HD firearm I could make due, but I want something more versatile for me.

I've got a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 with a simple FireDot circle reticle. I looked at other fixed power prism scopes, but for the weight the Leupold gives me a nice crisp bright dot backed up with an etched reticle and extra reach when outside. BTW, the weight difference between the Aimpoint Pro and the VX-R is only the weight of the scope mount. Aimpoint lists the weight with the mount and lens covers at 11.6oz which is the same as the Leupold.

Just one guys take, and it will most likely get me killed on the streets, but there it is.

[ranger]

I also am having issues with aging eyes seeing red dots - I am also moving toward low power variable scopes and moving away from red dots. I would be interested in more comments about low powder variable scopes in home defense roles. I actually was thinking this week about replacing the red dot on my PCC like 9mm AR with a 1-4 or 1-6 scope.

[blues]

I have a bit of astigmatism...don't need glasses outdoors, use 1.25 readers indoors on the computer or to read. (In natural light I don't need them for reading.)

When I look at the red dot on the H2 I see a dot with two small spikes, like a young buck would have. I know it's astigmatism as it remains in the same place if I rotate the optic.

When I spoke with other owners of the current 2nd gen H and T models, (as well as during a lengthy discussion with Aimpoint), I was told that the current generation is much crisper for folks with astigmatism due to improvements in both optics and coatings. Completely forgot about that when I was discussing the reasons why I felt the upgrade was worth the additional expense in an earlier post.

Further reason for doing some research and ideally get a chance to look through the optic (if possible) before making a decision.

I haven't explored beyond 1x optics as the environment for my intended usage, (home and property), is heavily wooded and unless I am on a roof or climb a tree there is no way I am going to see 200 yards unless I'm laying on a straight section of road wherever I might find one. As a result, I have the Aimpoint zeroed for 100 yards which requires only a hold over never exceeding 2.5" from point blank out to 200 yards.

[rob_s]

I'm a never been there, never done that guy, but for some reason I still feel like commenting...take it for what it's worth.

My nearing 44 year old eyes have both have an astigmatism. I don't require glasses full time yet, but I do have a pair that I wear occasionally if my eyes are feeling tired. For me, when looking through a red dot, I typically get a "cluster of grapes" view in the optic. The Aimpoint Pro gave me around a dime sized cluster of dots from the center trailing low right with each "grape" varying in brightness but not too different from the primary dot. The SIG Romeo 4B with the 65MOA circle/2MOA dot gave me an exact duplicate image just offset and overlapping low right at the same brightness. At less than 10 yards for a HD firearm I could make due, but I want something more versatile for me.

I've got a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 with a simple FireDot circle reticle. I looked at other fixed power prism scopes, but for the weight the Leupold gives me a nice crisp bright dot backed up with an etched reticle and extra reach when outside. BTW, the weight difference between the Aimpoint Pro and the VX-R is only the weight of the scope mount. Aimpoint lists the weight with the mount and lens covers at 11.6oz which is the same as the Leupold.

Just one guys take, and it will most likely get me killed on the streets, but there it is.

I have similar issues, but the use of "home defense" implies to me that we are talking about in-home, possibly in-yard, shooting events that's will be <25 yards and probably <5, so thencluster is irrelevant.

[ASH556]

The LPV (1-4, 1-6, etc) in an HD role has some limitations I believe. Given the choice of an Aimpoint for a purely HD rifle, that would be my choice every time. However, most folks tend to try to push AR's into that ever-evolving "do-it-all" role. For that, I do think the 1-4 is more valuable, even if you give up some things. Here's what I've learned after owning and/or shooting (drills, 3gn, etc) most of the top contenders:

Reticle design and true, flat, 1X matter very much if we're talking true HD, inside a structure, 3yds and out type stuff. A 1.25 or something on the bottom end is acceptable at 25yds and beyond, but inside 25 it really slows me down. As for the reticle, it needs to be bold, and circular. Illumination doesn't really even matter. The best I've used, in order of price, are the Trijicon Accupower (BDC Circle Reticle), Nightforce NXS 1-4 (FC2 or FC3G reticle), and Kahles 1-6 (not sure what reticle, was Rob Romero's).

The other things you give up compared to a red dot are field of view and ability to shoot from compromised positions. You still have to get your eye centered behind a scope. Not so with a red dot.

[GMSweet]

I have similar issues, but the use of "home defense" implies to me that we are talking about in-home, possibly in-yard, shooting events that's will be <25 yards and probably <5, so thencluster is irrelevant.

Agreed. In home, no issue and possibly sufficient for on property use. My woods line runs 40yds from the house with some a bit closer and some a bit further away. If someone smart and intent on attacking my home they would use my woods line for concealment where the ability to positively ID and not have a cluster of grapes obscuring the forest from the badguy would help. This probability is very VERY unlikely though.

More likely would be the need to drop coyotes in the area. I saw one during the day last year within .5 mile of the house and heard the kits in our yard a couple of nights. We don't have pets or livestock so I'm inclined to let them be, but it's always coyote season in NH with no limit. We abut conservation land so I have all manner of wildlife tromp through our yard and eat our landscaping.

Still, I keep thinking about moving Leupold to my "day" rifle and finding a 1x red dot to my "night" rifle. My wife really liked the circle reticle on a scope mounted on a suppressed .308 at a shooting event we went to last year; she enjoyed ringing steel at 100y and went 5 for 5 having never shot a rifle before that day. I guess I need to bring her along on my next shopping trip! :)

[GMSweet]

{snip} However, most folks tend to try to push AR's into that ever-evolving "do-it-all" role.

This is me!


{snip} The other things you give up compared to a red dot are field of view and ability to shoot from compromised positions. You still have to get your eye centered behind a scope. Not so with a red dot.

And this is why I keep looking for a red dot that works for me. As I keep working on my alternate shoulder mounting and rolling around on the ground, getting behind the scope is more challenging. I have to close my right eye whenever I mount the rifle to my left shoulder to force my left eye to do the work. I would like a 1x solution that gets it done for me.

[Notorious E.O.C.]

Conventional wisdom seems to be that it's outdated and overpriced, but I'll ask anyway... would a TA44 ACOG (1.5x) work in this role? I keep looking at it as a possible solution to the LASIK haoling that makes every red dot in the world furry for me.

[Inebriated]

I think it's worth asking what you want to accomplish with an optic before recommending one...

Irons are generally quite acceptable for home defense if you keep things indoors. So if you're in a city, or suburbia, maybe keep the irons. But if your property is a bit larger, and there's a possibility that you might ever engage someone (or something, wildlife is an equally-valid concern) further out, optics do offer a lot of advantage. Grab an Aimpoint, ACOG, LPV, whatever suits your vision and environment. Lots of close tree-lines plus a long driveway, Aimpoint might make a lot of sense to you. Big open fields with little cover/concealment around you, LPV/ACOG has its place. Or maybe you find you work best vice versa. And for bad eyes, magnification always helps when distance is a factor.

So the optic choice for a rifle meant solely for HD should really be driven by the problem you're most likely to need to solve. BUT, if you're like most of us, and your HD rifle isn't just sitting in a corner all the time waiting to be pressed into the service for which it is perfectly oriented, get the optic that best suits the training you'll be doing with it. Your familiarity with the sighting system you pick is paramount no matter what.

For me, the training and shooting I do, plus the properties I might ever have to defend, an Aimpoint micro is my pick across the board. Any Aimpoint would do, but I prefer the micro's.

[blues]

I think it's worth asking what you want to accomplish with an optic before recommending one...

Irons are generally quite acceptable for home defense if you keep things indoors. So if you're in a city, or suburbia, maybe keep the irons. But if your property is a bit larger, and there's a possibility that you might ever engage someone (or something, wildlife is an equally-valid concern) further out, optics do offer a lot of advantage. Grab an Aimpoint, ACOG, LPV, whatever suits your vision and environment. Lots of close tree-lines plus a long driveway, Aimpoint might make a lot of sense to you. Big open fields with little cover/concealment around you, LPV/ACOG has its place. And for bad eyes, magnification always helps.

So the optic choice for a rifle meant solely for HD should really be driven by the problem you're most likely to need to solve. BUT, if you're like most of us, and your HD rifle isn't just sitting in a corner all the time waiting to be pressed into the service for which it is perfectly oriented, get the optic that best suits the training you'll be doing with it. Your familiarity with the sighting system you pick is paramount no matter what.

For me, the training and shooting I do, plus the properties I might ever have to defend, an Aimpoint micro is my pick across the board. Any Aimpoint would do, but I prefer the micro's.

Inebriated, welcome to the site...however, judging by your post I don't think you've been drinking. ;)

[Inebriated]

Inebriated, welcome to the site...however, judging by your post I don't think you've been drinking. ;)

Thanks! The drinking has subsided, but it's an easy and consistent forum name, so I stick with it :D

[GJM]

I am seeing no Aimpoint micro red dots being used in PCC. When I tested one in practice, it felt very small compared to alternatives -- sort of like a RMR compared to a DP Pro.

[Inebriated]

I am seeing no Aimpoint micro red dots being used in PCC. When I tested one in practice, it felt very small compared to alternatives -- sort of like a RMR compared to a DP Pro.

Any guesses as to why?

The micro's were the first red dots I used regularly, so I don't find that they feel restrictive, but I see how they would if you were used larger dots. I've done a little side-by-side with a PRO, and while I know a larger optic has its benefits, I haven't been able to suss them out in my own use. I find too many other ways to waste time on a COF to allow me to attribute any quantifiable time differences to the optics.

[orionz06]

Trijicon RMR/AUG A3. Auto-adjust LED, change the batteries how ever often makes you feel good about yourself. I got a good deal on the RMR and it's been solid for years but if price were equal I'd get an Aimpoint micro.

Washout sucks with those though, gotta have the settings dialed in.



I am seeing no Aimpoint micro red dots being used in PCC. When I tested one in practice, it felt very small compared to alternatives -- sort of like a RMR compared to a DP Pro.

I think the larger tube helps a lot more than the weight hurts. I keep going back and forth as I need to put a few optics on some "pistols" and the PRO just seems too hard to ignore. I can get a PRO, sexy mount, and still have money left over when compared to a Micro.

[Jay Cunningham]

When the Micros first came out they were touted as optics for "specialized platforms" or some such. Then they quickly gained acceptance as standard carbine optics when several prominent trainer personalities endorsed them in that role. I switched my optics to these solely based upon the recommendations from these trainers.

However, in time I grew disillusioned with the Micros. It seemed to me that the were less robust than their 30mm counterparts. I can't quantify it, but it seemed that I saw more battery life and breakage issues. QC seemed spotty on them. The other thing that struck me was that they went in the other direction from one of the so-called strong points of red dot "reflex" sights, which is very forgiving head/eye position.

This doesn't become evident standing on a line doing ready-up drills, but when you get into more compromised positions like shooting underneath a car or falling on your back and shooting from supine, it was a chore to find that dot. At least for me and a few people I know.

Is this all anecdotal? Yes.

I actually went completely in the opposite direction and use a Trijicon SRS, which I love - when it works.

Would I recommend an SRS? No. I recommend an ACO or PRO.

As a footnote, my eyes are getting hinkey too, and I have grown very fond of green etched reticles. I haven't done much about that yet, though. I've backed so far off of carbine stuff in general, simply for practical reasons.

[orionz06]

Most of the issues with the Micro's can be resolved by actually tightening the battery cap. Per Aimpoint this has been 100% repeatable for everyone I've talked to who has tried it.

The SRS looked like shit and the MRO is seeming to be kinda shitty as well, at least anecdotally.

[ranger]

I am seeing no Aimpoint micro red dots being used in PCC. When I tested one in practice, it felt very small compared to alternatives -- sort of like a RMR compared to a DP Pro.

I am watching the Brian Enos foruns on PCC. Multiple PCC have gone with C-Mores. I have a MPX 9mm Pistol that I am waiting on my SBR Stamp - I have a C More railway to try on it for PCC and potentially HD.

[ranger]

I spoke too soon. LAPG has extended their New Years sale until 23:59 tonight. By using the BYE2016 code you can get the Aimpoint PRO for $360.40 (http://www.lapolicegear.com/aim-12841-pro-optic.html) and the Aimpoint ACO for $334.05 (http://www.lapolicegear.com/aim-200174-aco.html). The PRO is backordered, but they'll still let you use the discount. I had a friend who backordered a discounted PRO right around Thanksgiving and it shipped 3 weeks later.

So, any comments on ACO vs PRO then for the thread purpose of HD? Thanks

[LOKNLOD]

Conventional wisdom seems to be that it's outdated and overpriced, but I'll ask anyway... would a TA44 ACOG (1.5x) work in this role? I keep looking at it as a possible solution to the LASIK haoling that makes every red dot in the world furry for me.

Given the limitations and cost of the TA44, I'd consider checking out a TR24. The 1x is excellent and field of view is quite large. It's not as svelte, but if a true red dot isn't working for you it's a 1-4x that is very biased towards the 1x end.

[punkey71]

I'm nobody and my realistic expectation to use a defensive carbine, for actual defense, is about as low as it gets.

That said, I'm giving the DP Pro a try on my 5.56 SBR and MPX. The FOV combined with less housing around the glass has made both-eyes-open shooting much easier/faster for me. With tube style optics, T1 specifically, I occasionally get double vision running drills on targets at 25yds and in. I've not seen that, or at least noticed it, with the DP Pro. I wear glasses for mild/moderate nearsightedness and astigmatism.

Target transitions and 9 hole barricade drills showed the most improvement in times. Earth shattering difference? No, I guess not - but consistently faster and more comfortable getting behind the dot - especially running the 9 hole.

A few comparisons of The DP Pro vs the RMR and T-1.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170102/b51317a938f51ac2bb17f8b99fffb07e.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170102/58350a6e6cd269d2345fccc1dd26de11.jpg


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[GJM]

I much prefer the DP Pro to an RMR on a game gun, as the Pro display is much larger and clearer (RMR is tinted, smaller and curved). I would not trust the DP Pro on a defense gun, because of poor battery life, difficulty fitting BUIS, and the difficulty of quickly adjusting the intensity of the dot. For those not familiar, the Pro does not have separate up and down buttons. You need to hold the on/off button two seconds (but not much longer as it will turn the optic off) to reverse direction, and then press once for each change in intensity.

On my Pistol Caliber Carbines, I have tested the Aimpoint T1, Aimpoint Pro, RMR, and C-More Railway with a 6 moa dot. Inbound, I have a Trijicon MRO and Sig Romeo 4M. Of those I have tested, I far and away prefer the C-More Railway with the 6 moa dot module. The C-More dot appears round to me, the controls are very easy to adjust intensity, the 6 moa dot works well at PCC distances, and the combination of a largish, clear display and minimal frame around the lens make for great down range visibility.

[punkey71]

I much prefer the DP Pro to an RMR on a game gun, as the Pro display is much larger and clearer (RMR is tinted, smaller and curved). I would not trust the DP Pro on a defense gun, because of poor battery life, difficulty fitting BUIS, and the difficulty of quickly adjusting the intensity of the dot. For those not familiar, the Pro does not have separate up and down buttons. You need to hold the on/off button two seconds (but not much longer as it will turn the optic off) to reverse direction, and then press once for each change in intensity.

On my Pistol Caliber Carbines, I have tested the Aimpoint T1, Aimpoint Pro, RMR, and C-More Railway with a 6 moa dot. Inbound, I have a Trijicon MRO and Sig Romeo 4M. Of those I have tested, I far and away prefer the C-More Railway with the 6 moa dot module. The C-More dot appears round to me, the controls are very easy to adjust intensity, the 6 moa dot works well at PCC distances, and the combination of a largish, clear display and minimal frame around the lens make for great down range visibility.

I actually received a thoughtful PM from a member inquiring about battery life and I made mention of your comments on the poor life on a pistol. 2 weeks maybe? Carried daily? I don't recall all your circumstances.

I have 2 - one on an MPX and the other a 556 SBR for about 6 weeks. While I don't have the actual time in use, I've shot about 2,000 rounds with the MPX over ~10 range days in that 6 weeks. Less in the 556 gun. Both optics unremarkable and still working as of tonight.

I will shoot it on the MPX until it dies and give an update.

Depending on the battery life I will decide if the T1 goes back on. With most of its life spent sitting still in a safe I'm hoping the battery will last several months - despite using it several times a week.

From a shooting standpoint - the DP Pro is a significant advantage for me and my eyes.

At <$1 a battery on Amazon I think throwing a fresh battery in every couple months would be fine for me. A tool-less top load battery door certainly makes that decision a lot easier.

Regarding the brightness, it's always on the second highest (I believe). Works indoors with a WML and outdoors for me. I really only turn it down to zero. Then it's back up.

I certainly understand the concerns by others in more demanding occupations/conditions/etc.




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[GJM]

Last spring, when I first got a DP Pro, my two units, left on, were burning through a battery a week. Now I turn the units off between stages, and when done practicing, and the battery has ceased being an issue.

[DocGKR]

There is not even any question--for home defense on a long gun, run a full size Aimpoint (ex. M2, M3, M4, Pro) and be done with it...

[Robinson]

I currently have irons on my AR and a Trijicon AccuPower on my bolt gun. I am considering adding an optical sight to the AR. The Aimpoint PRO looks like a solid option especially based on info I've read here -- but I'm wondering if it might be better to buy another AccuPower for the AR just for the sake of having consistent aiming devices on both long guns?

For now, good irons and a white light isn't a terrible setup either.

[coldcase1984]

Hope this doesn't offend, but you might be better served with a combo WML/Green Laser for a HD gun, depending upon the size of the home and surrounding property.

I've a relatively small house on a 100x200 lot. A long shot in my house is 12 yards. A laser that coincides with bullet path at 10 yards would be pretty useful indoors. Make sure the electronic ear pro is in place before investigating bumps in night.

[rob_s]

I'm going to go back on myself a little here...

Given the almost absurdly improbably nature of the "home defense carbine" being employed by anyone, and in particular anyone reading this site (unlikely to be drug-dealing gang member living in trailer parks), and given my person preference towards handguns and "home defense" firearms for a variety of reasons, I think your carbine should be assemble such that it addresses a real-world need (LARPing, competing, hunting, plinking, 3%ing, etc.) without detracting from the perceived need/utility for a "home defense" role.

If that means that a 30mm Aimpoint best serves your plinking needs then great, since that's also probably the A-answer for a dedicated ninja gun. But if that means you need a 1.x-Y for 3-gun and none of the other go-fast gear makes said gun un-usable for ninja-ing, then I'd put the 1.x-Y on the gun and be satisfied that when the unicorns land I'll be able to get COM hits inside my residential hallway as-needed.

[Eli]

I have two carbines that could serve in an HD role. My main carbine is wearing an Aimpoint CompM4, the second one is wearing and Aimpoint CompM2. I also have an H1 Micro sitting in the safe, not doing anything. A few years ago I was in the same position, trying to find what worked best for me on a carbine. I've taken a each of the three optics through both day and night classes (also did a night class with a Trijicon MRO...which is why I no longer own a Trijicon MRO), and for my money, the 30mm Aimpoint is where it's at.

[flux]

I'm going to go back on myself a little here...

Given the almost absurdly improbably nature of the "home defense carbine" being employed by anyone, and in particular anyone reading this site (unlikely to be drug-dealing gang member living in trailer parks), and given my person preference towards handguns and "home defense" firearms for a variety of reasons, I think your carbine should be assemble such that it addresses a real-world need (LARPing, competing, hunting, plinking, 3%ing, etc.) without detracting from the perceived need/utility for a "home defense" role.

If that means that a 30mm Aimpoint best serves your plinking needs then great, since that's also probably the A-answer for a dedicated ninja gun. But if that means you need a 1.x-Y for 3-gun and none of the other go-fast gear makes said gun un-usable for ninja-ing, then I'd put the 1.x-Y on the gun and be satisfied that when the unicorns land I'll be able to get COM hits inside my residential hallway as-needed.
I know of two cases where the home defense long gun has been successfully used. Tiny percentage, but not impossible for it to be used in a scenario. Agreed otherwise. Both members didn't wish they had a handgun instead.

[Clusterfrack]

I have two carbines that could serve in an HD role. My main carbine is wearing an Aimpoint CompM4, the second one is wearing and Aimpoint CompM2. I also have an H1 Micro sitting in the safe, not doing anything. A few years ago I was in the same position, trying to find what worked best for me on a carbine. I've taken a each of the three optics through both day and night classes (also did a night class with a Trijicon MRO...which is why I no longer own a Trijicon MRO), and for my money, the 30mm Aimpoint is where it's at.

What didn't you like about the MRO in low light? I've had great results with mine.

[Eli]

What didn't you like about the MRO in low light? I've had great results with mine.

After a string of fire, the gunsmoke matched the blue tint on the lens of the MRO, almost perfectly. Indoors (with "all the lumens" Surefires) it was okay, but once we got out to any distance beyond 50 yards, it was basically like looking into a gray/blue blanket.

The carbines that were running Aimpoints, ACOGs, and LPVO...even with weaker lights, didn't have this issue at all.

[Clusterfrack]

After a string of fire, the gunsmoke matched the blue tint on the lens of the MRO, almost perfectly. Indoors (with "all the lumens" Surefires) it was okay, but once we got out to any distance beyond 50 yards, it was basically like looking into a gray/blue blanket.

The carbines that were running Aimpoints, ACOGs, and LPVO...even with weaker lights, didn't have this issue at all.

Interesting. Thanks.

[M2CattleCo]

I've used the big and the little Aimpoints and I always gravitate back to the Micros.

The folks at Aimpoint will tell you that the Comp M4 and M4s are hands-down the toughest optic they make, the T-2 is right behind it.

The smaller size and weight of the Micros just 'does it' for me. I've played around with 'em enough to know that if the tube size makes the difference between seeing the dot and not, I'm not really going to be able to build the shot anyway.

[Shipwreck]

I love my Mepro 21 with triangle reticle on my SCAR 16S. I have owned 6 of these optics over the years - on guns I later sold, so I sold the optic.

I don't like it with the bullseye reticle - but with the triangle, it is sweet...

Battery free - no on/off switch. Just grab and go. And, it has less washout issues compared to years ago

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/scar-new99_zps57375bb2.jpg~original

[El Cid]

I love my Mepro 21 with triangle reticle on my SCAR 16S. I have owned 6 of these optics over the years - on guns I later sold, so I sold the optic.

I don't like it with the bullseye reticle - but with the triangle, it is sweet...

Battery free - no on/off switch. Just grab and go. And, it has less washout issues compared to years ago

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/scar-new99_zps57375bb2.jpg~original

What makes it sweet? Does he triangle obscure anything such as the bad guy's hands? I've never seen one of those in person.

Since 99% (my own made up stat) of HD scenarios will be at room distance I prefer an Aimpoint style dot or perhaps an EOTech style donut reticle for speed.

[breakingtime91]

I really think the rds is a great civilian option. I have two aimpoint pros and am very happy with both. One has been on the same battery for well over a year, no issues over thousands of rounds. I look forward to the day I can put reliable mrds on my pistols, it is truly a great fighting tool.

[SLG]

Almost everything anyone writes here is opinion, especially in threads like these.


I run a T2 on my work carbine becasue that is what is issued. It works fine.

The 30mm aimpoints are superior in everyway except weight, if that matters to you. They're still pretty light. Aimpoint will tell you that the micros are simply not as rugged as the 30mm versions, so what Jay described is very real and quantifiable.

I prefer 30mm tubes to the micros, no question. I prefer real scopes to the aimpoints, but on a dedicated HD rifle, I would choose a Comp M2. I also prefer the 4moa dots for HD use, but the 2moa for more real world applicability, so...

[Sero Sed Serio]

I'm close to pulling the trigger on an Aimpoint for one of my 16" middy BCMs, with the plan to add an Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a Larue swing mount. I really like the M4s, but I've heard the battery compartment blocks the swing mount, so it's out. I have a lead on a NIB M3--what's the pros/cons on the M3 vs. M4 for this role?

[GAP]

For what it's worth, I've had really good experience with the Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot.

Aimpoint clone with 2 MOA and 50,000 hrs battery life... set it and forget it for $160.

[Sero Sed Serio]

I'm close to pulling the trigger on an Aimpoint for one of my 16" middy BCMs, with the plan to add an Aimpoint 3x magnifier in a Larue swing mount. I really like the M4s, but I've heard the battery compartment blocks the swing mount, so it's out. I have a lead on a NIB M3--what's the pros/cons on the M3 vs. M4 for this role?

I decided to go with the M3--was able to pick it up NIB for $400, which would be reason enough to pick it over the M4. I also like the lower profile of the M3 battery compartment as opposed to the larger AA compartment on the M4, and figured that the M3 mounting system would allow a little adjustment in getting the optic as close as possible to the magnifier. Now to start saving for said magnifier...

[El Cid]

I decided to go with the M3--was able to pick it up NIB for $400, which would be reason enough to pick it over the M4. I also like the lower profile of the M3 battery compartment as opposed to the larger AA compartment on the M4, and figured that the M3 mounting system would allow a little adjustment in getting the optic as close as possible to the magnifier. Now to start saving for said magnifier...
Good choice!

If this is an HD rifle, why would you need a magnifier? Do you have hundreds of yards of property outside your door?

[Sero Sed Serio]

Good choice!

If this is an HD rifle, why would you need a magnifier? Do you have hundreds of yards of property outside your door?

Not going to be my primary HD rifle (that is a 6933 with an Aimpoint T2 and Surefire Scout), but I figured it was close enough to the topic at hand to post in here vs. starting a new thread, since I was looking for a quick answer before an auction ended.

[eb07]

aimpoint t1/2 is my setup and suggestion, as people buy the t2 some t1's are out on the market for a halfway decent price

[rob_s]

I decided to go with the M3--was able to pick it up NIB for $400, which would be reason enough to pick it over the M4. I also like the lower profile of the M3 battery compartment as opposed to the larger AA compartment on the M4, and figured that the M3 mounting system would allow a little adjustment in getting the optic as close as possible to the magnifier. Now to start saving for said magnifier...


Good choice!

If this is an HD rifle, why would you need a magnifier? Do you have hundreds of yards of property outside your door?


Not going to be my primary HD rifle (that is a 6933 with an Aimpoint T2 and Surefire Scout), but I figured it was close enough to the topic at hand to post in here vs. starting a new thread, since I was looking for a quick answer before an auction ended.

I never got around to it (opinions on the general topic changed) but when I was looking at re-vamping my AR collection my thought was to mount a PRO in such a way as to allow for a QD tip-over magnifier mount in the event that I wanted to actually, you know, take the gun out and shoot it.

I also figured that if I ever actually needed the gun for what I thought it was meant for and I had somehow left the magnifier attached it wouldn't negatively affect the use case.

In fact, at one of our training days I used to organize I had everyone bring their carry, car, home defense, etc. guns in exactly the condition they store/carry them in and found that my old M2 on my "home defense carbine" shut off under recoil which resulted in my "point shooting" the carbine, which in turn resulted in all A-zone hits at all distances remotely possible in any home I've ever lived in.

[NH Shooter]

I've got a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 with a simple FireDot circle reticle. I looked at other fixed power prism scopes, but for the weight the Leupold gives me a nice crisp bright dot backed up with an etched reticle and extra reach when outside. BTW, the weight difference between the Aimpoint Pro and the VX-R is only the weight of the scope mount. Aimpoint lists the weight with the mount and lens covers at 11.6oz which is the same as the Leupold.

I use the VX-R Patrol on my "universal carbine" as well and concur with the above statement. No doubt there are better scopes available but they are generally 1.5 - 2X the weight. My 16" mid length carbine uses a BCM ELW BFH upper and MBUS PRO offset BUIS and weighs 7.5 pounds. With near 1 MOA precision using a variety of ammo, I consider it an ideal set up for 10 to 300 yard engagements.

While a G17C/APL remains my primary HD weapon, I have recently put together a "pistol" using a BCM pistol lower and a BCM 11.5" 5.56 ELW upper. I swapped out the BCM buffer with a shorter MVB Micro Pistol Kit and am running a set of DD iron sights. At 26" in OAL and well under six pounds including a WML, I am finding it an intriguing set up to fill a HD/PDW role. With a target illuminated the irons are fast to pick up. At in-house distances, simply looking over the top of the rear sight and using just the front sight is quick and more than accurate enough for MOM hits - assuming a reasonable cheek weld is attained on the buffer tube. No doubt this is an aspect that an RDS offers some advantage.

I also concur that a laser/WML combo (such as a SF X400) could be an even better solution than a RDS in a in-the-house-close-range scenario.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/arp-2.jpg

[Crash41984]

Aimpoint, Aimpoint, and Aimpoint. In that order lol.

FYI: I took a fresh 16" build to the range recently to test fire. No optics, nor irons mounted, just kinda used the top rail to aim. At 20 feet, all of my shots were making it into a 3-4" group. Any quality red dot will suffice at reasonable HD distances, no need to agonize over the decision.

[Shipwreck]

What makes it sweet? Does he triangle obscure anything such as the bad guy's hands? I've never seen one of those in person.

Since 99% (my own made up stat) of HD scenarios will be at room distance I prefer an Aimpoint style dot or perhaps an EOTech style donut reticle for speed.

I wrote a mini review of the optic a few years ago here: http://www.texasgunforum.com/index.php?topic=9539.0

I love that it is grab and go. I used to keep a carbine in my car for a couple of years - I didn't have to worry about the 160F+ inside the vehicle temps killing electronics over time - because there are none.

The triangle is not that big, but works great. Use the tip for precision shooting. Just cover the target with the triangle if you need to make a quick shot very fast.

It's also very durable. 10 year lifetime with the tritium, but I have seen people with older models say it is still usable at 15 years. And, it will ALWAYS work in the daytime. The tritium is just used in the dark and inside.

I used to change optics every 2 or 3 years anyway - so, 10 years for the Mepro 21 is good enough for me.

I tried one years ago and it sucked - but they revamped the design starting in 2012. Any one made since then has less wash out issues than they used to have.

[Unobtanium]

For me, a low power variable. Why? In my dwelling, center the threat in the scope tube if illumination dies and the cross hairs dissappear somehow. But for outdoors? It's unbeatable. I'm much more likely to shoot an animal outside than a person inside. Also, confronting a hunter on property is much easier with a scoped rifle. I've never had to do it yet, but my dad did when I was younger. Things cam get dicy at times, and I don't want to be the guy with out glass.

[EVP]

Almost everything anyone writes here is opinion, especially in threads like these.


I run a T2 on my work carbine becasue that is what is issued. It works fine.

The 30mm aimpoints are superior in everyway except weight, if that matters to you. They're still pretty light. Aimpoint will tell you that the micros are simply not as rugged as the 30mm versions, so what Jay described is very real and quantifiable.

I prefer 30mm tubes to the micros, no question. I prefer real scopes to the aimpoints, but on a dedicated HD rifle, I would choose a Comp M2. I also prefer the 4moa dots for HD use, but the 2moa for more real world applicability, so...


Quick question, what position do you like running the 30mm Aimpoints? I find I prefer to run them closer to my eye then the micros. Just curious to see what you prefer, I don't do a lot of carbine stuff.

[CS Tactical]

I'm boring and have Astigmatism, so I run a T2 which has less distortion than the Pro or H1/T1 plus I can't justify a Kahles to my Wife right now :cool:

[spinmove_]

T2 isn't exactly inexpensive either (I know, buy once cry once). How does the MRO stack up against the T2 in the department?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[CS Tactical]

T2 isn't exactly inexpensive either (I know, buy once cry once). How does the MRO stack up against the T2 in the department?

Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

I'm not a fan of the slight magnification personally, but it's not a bad optic.

[Clusterfrack]

I really like the MRO. The dot is crisp, and the field of view is larger.

[CS Tactical]

I really like the MRO. The dot is crisp, and the field of view is larger.

Do you have Astigmatism too?

[Clusterfrack]

Do you have Astigmatism too?

Yes, slight astigmatism.

[voodoo_man]

I'm not a fan of the slight magnification personally, but it's not a bad optic.

Cant day this is an issue or that I even notice it.

Only thing which has been brought to my attention as a negative for an MRO is that at cold temps the dot stops working. When I'm ready to complete my review I'm gana freeze it, you know, for science.

[Clusterfrack]

Looking forward to that review, VDM.

[Sigfan26]

I'm not a fan of the slight magnification personally, but it's not a bad optic.

I noticed that, too. Its mostly around the edges. Didn't care for it. But, for the money, it's tough to beat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[spinmove_]

Cant day this is an issue or that I even notice it.

Only thing which has been brought to my attention as a negative for an MRO is that at cold temps the dot stops working. When I'm ready to complete my review I'm gana freeze it, you know, for science.

First I've heard of that phenomenon. Looking forward to your review as well, but what kind of temps are we talking about for "the cold"?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[voodoo_man]

First I've heard of that phenomenon. Looking forward to your review as well, but what kind of temps are we talking about for "the cold"?


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

Unfortunately cannot say anything in detail as I was not there but the MRO in near freezing or freezing temps and it began to flicker and eventually not function. Guy had to run irons.

[spinmove_]

Unfortunately cannot say anything in detail as I was not there but the MRO in near freezing or freezing temps and it began to flicker and eventually not function. Guy had to run irons.

Yikes. That'd be a problem with our Michigan winters up here.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[voodoo_man]

Yikes. That'd be a problem with our Michigan winters up here.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

I don't know how long it took, the actual temps or anything of that nature. I don't even know if it stayed off. I'll have to test it out when time comes. Just gata figure out how to put a camera inside a freezer without it dying.

Maybe I'll wait till next winter

[texasaggie2005]

I'm not a fan of the slight magnification personally, but it's not a bad optic.

I found that moving mine back a few slots from where I had my T2, it lessened my perceived magnification.


I really like the MRO. The dot is crisp, and the field of view is larger.

I too like my MRO.


Do you have Astigmatism too?

I have a slight astigmatism. It's had a comma effect on all my red dots (H1, T2, 2 MRO's) regardless of make and dot size.


Cant day this is an issue or that I even notice it.

Only thing which has been brought to my attention as a negative for an MRO is that at cold temps the dot stops working. When I'm ready to complete my review I'm gana freeze it, you know, for science.

Hmm, can't say I've had problems with cold weather. Sample of two MRO's. Last summer when I bought my 2nd MRO, I did some hot/cold testing while I was waiting for my mount to come in. First, I left it outside in the direct sun for 6-8 hours, think 105F / 85% humidity. Then I stuck it in my deep freeze for a few days. After 48hrs in deep freeze, it went back out into a full day of sun, and then back into the deep freeze for a couple of days. All this with a new battery, turned up to max brightness. No issues, but I don't know if there was any thermal shift, as I couldn't mount it to my rifle and cowitness against my irons. Since then, it's been out in 100F+ days, and sub 32F days with no issue.

[voodoo_man]

Hmm, can't say I've had problems with cold weather. Sample of two MRO's. Last summer when I bought my 2nd MRO, I did some hot/cold testing while I was waiting for my mount to come in. First, I left it outside in the direct sun for 6-8 hours, think 105F / 85% humidity. Then I stuck it in my deep freeze for a few days. After 48hrs in deep freeze, it went back out into a full day of sun, and then back into the deep freeze for a couple of days. All this with a new battery, turned up to max brightness. No issues, but I don't know if there was any thermal shift, as I couldn't mount it to my rifle and cowitness against my irons. Since then, it's been out in 100F+ days, and sub 32F days with no issue.

Like I said, I have no idea of the actual circumstances other than it was at or below freezing. I don't know how long or what the circumstances were, I don't even know what type of battery or if it was a new battery.

[CS Tactical]

I noticed that, too. Its mostly around the edges. Didn't care for it. But, for the money, it's tough to beat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's slight, but it's there.

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/support/faq_MRO.php


Is the MRO® magnified?

The Trijicon MRO has a very slight magnification of 1.05x, which is within the range of competitive reflex-style sights. This slight magnification allows the MRO to have an optimally-focused target scene and a crisp, clear reticle dot. The slight magnification does not affect the usability or performance of the optic.

[voodoo_man]

It's slight, but it's there.

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/support/faq_MRO.php


Is the MRO® magnified?

The Trijicon MRO has a very slight magnification of 1.05x, which is within the range of competitive reflex-style sights. This slight magnification allows the MRO to have an optimally-focused target scene and a crisp, clear reticle dot. The slight magnification does not affect the usability or performance of the optic.

http://orig07.deviantart.net/e28d/f/2011/099/5/a/senor_chang_ken_jeong_gif_by_hungsmong-d3djzku.gif