Looking for recommendations on 9mm guns with short trigger reach

[mrozowjj]

My gf has small hands, like wears a children's medium glove small.

I have been taking her to the range for a while. She likes my Walther PPQ and she is also fond of the Walther PPS M2 however recently I let her try my surplus CZ-83 and she remarked about how much easier the trigger was for her to reach compared to even the Walthers.

While the CZ-83 is a fine gun I personally don't think it's a good gun for her because it fires a not very common 9mm Makarov round. I have considered the commercial variant that comes in .380 but when I mentioned it to her she said she wants 9mm. I am trying to avoid the small girl therefore small gun stereotype by specifying the overall grip size doesn't matter nearly as much as the distance of the trigger to the rear of the grip so yes the tiny pocket 380s would probably fit the bill but those aren't what I am looking for. What I am looking for is suggestions for a 9mm gun in either single or double stack with a short trigger reach.

Guns she has tried and did not like
Glock 19 (I don't know why she just didn't like it)
HK VP9 - Despite putting on all of the smallest grip panels the trigger starts too far forward for her to reach. Seriously.
CZ SP01 (And Kadet)
M&P Shield
Ruger SP101


List of guns I want her to try:
1911 in 9mm - She has held one in 45 but she does not like the grip safety on this at all
Sig P239
Sig P938
Sig P225
Glock 42
CZ P07
Springfield XDs (She held one and remarked that it felt "cheap")

TL;DR Version, the GF has small hands and needs guns with a short trigger reach. A smaller grip is good but if the trigger starts too far forward than the trigger.

[LittleLebowski]

Glock 19 Gen 4 sans backstrap.

[theJanitor]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B22wLsyYEkTOMDU4MjJlNTktOTRlZi00NTJkLWE0MGMtZmEwN GFlMWE3ZDlm/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1

[jwperry]

If the Gen 4 G19 is out of the question, I think you're on the right path the the P225/P239. Maybe a P228 with E2 grips and the reduced reach trigger.

Since you said she didn't like the G19 or M&P Shield, I doubt she'd like the G42.

[spinmove_]

I'm surprised she didn't like the Shield as it would be about the perfect size for what she needs. Try a P239 for giggles. SP2022 with small grip and short reach trigger. G43? J-frame? P290RS?

I also agree a P229 with E2 or G10 grips with a short reach trigger might work as well.


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[LorenzoS]

The HK P30 with small side and back inserts is great for people with smaller hands. The paddle mag release is also easier to reach, and the large slide release levers provide leverage for someone without much finger strength.

[busykngt]

I'd have her try the Sig P938 that's already on your list. Saw an ad from KY Gun Company couple days ago, comes with three magazines and green laser for ~$570 (not a bad price) but I'd have her try one first.

[MolonLabe416]

Springfield Armory EMP-4 in 9mm.

[Dave Williams]

One thing about the awesome 938, is it recoils a bit.

[rauchman]

Compact or Subcompact Sig P320 with small grip module?

[Doge]

I have a fun-sized wife and she likes the RTF Glock 19 with SSvi Tyr Trigger and Wilson 9mm 1911. Made the swap from carrying a P228 and P01 because of her smaller hands and DA/SA trigger. I also have a Gen4 G17 and she got me a Vortex Venom to put on it and with no backstrap she can shoot it but says she likes the metal triggered guns and sliding 1911 trigger.

I'd recommend a polymer framed striker fired gun (glock, M&P, P320, etc) and keep in account the trigger shoe.

Good luck!

[pangloss]

Have you thought about a Browning Hi Power? Also, I have a Beretta 92G Vertec with a Wilson short reach trigger, and it seems to have quite a short trigger reach. Some thinner grips would shorten the reach even more. Vertecs are tough to find right now, but the M9A3 should be equivalent.

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[RJ]

The HK P30 with small side and back inserts is great for people with smaller hands. The paddle mag release is also easier to reach, and the large slide release levers provide leverage for someone without much finger strength.

Ditto, the P30SK with small grips all around is also pretty small.


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[Father of 3]

My wife is 5'5" and maybe 110 lbs. soaking wet with boots on. Our 7 year olds hands are almost as big as hers. She absolutely loves the way my father-in-laws Ruger LC9s fits in her hand. Any other gun she has liked has been in .380.

[camsdaddy]

Has she considered a revolver. I don't mean like air weight j frame but maybe something shoot able.

[Paltares8]

If she has very small hands I'd scratch the CZ P07 of your list. My wife has smallish hands and she has a hard time handling it.
Eta: I have a 1st gen without the switchable backstraps, and I think its grip size is the same as the medium backstrap on the gen 2. So if the small backstrap takes a decent chunk of it may be ok. But besides the size, I could see the dimensions being an issue. My wife is very interested in trying a Sig P290(?) and a Shield. She has tried a Ruger Lc9s and she liked the feel of it, but my SR9c with with small strap was too big

[Luke]

Compact or Subcompact Sig P320 with small grip module?

Came here to post this.

There is a big difference between the compact and sub, try both.

[GOTURBACK]

HK P30Sk LEM with a 4.1 kit installed for a reduced initial trigger travel ( at rest it sets farther back ie; it's a shorter reach to get on it).
And if you want to splurge and go all out send it to Lazy Wolf for a full action / trigger job as well not sure of the current wait time.

[JTQ]

The typical gun forum response to the "I/my wife/child has small hands and is looking for a handgun", is often followed by a recommendation for subcompact guns. While the small hand may fit on a small grip better than a large hand, the issue is trigger reach and not that a short grip is an advantage. A short grip is usually a disadvantage.

In the double stack 9mm guns, of which it is possible that none of these may fit, with the Gen4 G19 as a baseline, the Gen4 is better than previous Gen Glocks, I also find the M&P9, Beretta PX4, HK P30/VP, Browning Hi-Power all more small hand friendly than the Gen4 G19, and that is with standard backstraps/grip panels on those guns and none on the Gen 4 G19. Small backstraps/grip panels on the M&P9, PX4, P30/VP would be an even bigger advantage.

[psalms144.1]

If the issue is grip size, a single stack pistol like the P239 might be a good call. If the issue is trigger reach, any of the DA/SA, DAO pistols are LIKELY to be harder for her to reach than equivalent sized strikers. She liked the CZ83, how about a CZ P07? Good size for learning on, and the ergonomics should be similar to the 83...

[Duelist]

A good friend of mine with similar issues (tiny girl/tiny hands) ended up with a SIG 938. She got the chance to run a wide variety of guns, and is very fit and strong to her build, so she could cycle any gun we handed her, and deal with the recoil (we did NOT try magnum revolvers), but grip shape and trigger reach, combined with concealability, got her on that 938 and she loves it.

[mrozowjj]

First off thank you for all the suggestions. I read all of them over with the GF last night and she is adding pistols to the list.



Compact or Subcompact Sig P320 with small grip module?

Despite claiming that they produce a small grip module I have not seen a P320 for sale anywhere with the smallest grip module nor have I seen the grip module itself for sale anywhere not even on Sig's website. It seems to be the unicorn of acessories for the P320 which is a shame because I would love to try this option out for her because I know the P320 has a good trigger.

The one thing that is certain is that Sig seems to make the most options for what it is she needs hence so many Sig's on the list.



One thing about the awesome 938, is it recoils a bit.

I've shot one once upon a time so I am aware which is why I would like her to try it first. I always start her off with just a single round in a new gun so she knows what the recoil is going to be like and she can decide if the wants to shoot more after.



The HK P30 with small side and back inserts is great for people with smaller hands. The paddle mag release is also easier to reach, and the large slide release levers provide leverage for someone without much finger strength.

Does the P30 have a shorter trigger reach than the VP9? I was under the impression that they had the same basic grip shape and I thought it would be right out because of that.


If the Gen 4 G19 is out of the question, I think you're on the right path the the P225/P239. Maybe a P228 with E2 grips and the reduced reach trigger.

Since you said she didn't like the G19 or M&P Shield, I doubt she'd like the G42.

Noted about the G42. She doesn't like Glocks because it feels very blocky and uncomfortable. She didn't like the M&P Shield because the shape of the grip didn't fit her had. Between the three she preferred the Walther PPS M2.


Has she considered a revolver. I don't mean like air weight j frame but maybe something shoot able.

She shot a friend's SP101 with 37 specials and did not like it. It was months ago so I can't remember why something with the size and balance of the gun (too much weight forward I think?) or maybe the recoil? I thought she should try a larger gun like a 686 or a GP100 and had her hold a GP100 but she found it too large and heavy.


If she has very small hands I'd scratch the CZ P07 of your list. My wife has smallish hands and she has a hard time handling it.
Eta: I have a 1st gen without the switchable backstraps, and I think its grip size is the same as the medium backstrap on the gen 2. So if the small backstrap takes a decent chunk of it may be ok. But besides the size, I could see the dimensions being an issue. My wife is very interested in trying a Sig P290(?) and a Shield. She has tried a Ruger Lc9s and she liked the feel of it, but my SR9c with with small strap was too big

I looked at the Sig P290 and added it to the list to try. I'm a little concerned with the trigger being a DAO model but I'll at least have her dry fire one in a store to see if she wants to shoot it. I'll do the same with the Sig SR9c.

It's a shame to hear that about the P07. I hope the new P10c will be better and not at all because I want an excuse to add another CZ to my collection.

[LtDave]

If the issue is grip size, a single stack pistol like the P239 might be a good call. If the issue is trigger reach, any of the DA/SA, DAO pistols are LIKELY to be harder for her to reach than equivalent sized strikers. She liked the CZ83, how about a CZ P07? Good size for learning on, and the ergonomics should be similar to the 83...

Add a short trigger to the P239 and you'll probably be GTG. S&W 3rd Gen 3914/3913 or the DAO versions which have an even shorter trigger reach. HK P7 perhaps?

[mrozowjj]

Add a short trigger to the P239 and you'll probably be GTG. S&W 3rd Gen 3914/3913 or the DAO versions which have an even shorter trigger reach. HK P7 perhaps?

I thought the SRT trigger stood for Short Reset Trigger not Short Reach Trigger? I thought it'd help with the reset not the initial starting position of the trigger?

The idea of a DAO gun having a short trigger reach is strange to me but I'll look at them.

HK P7... because bankruptcy is always an option.

[spinmove_]

First off thank you for all the suggestions. I read all of them over with the GF last night and she is adding pistols to the list.




Despite claiming that they produce a small grip module I have not seen a P320 for sale anywhere with the smallest grip module nor have I seen the grip module itself for sale anywhere not even on Sig's website. It seems to be the unicorn of acessories for the P320 which is a shame because I would love to try this option out for her because I know the P320 has a good trigger.

The one thing that is certain is that Sig seems to make the most options for what it is she needs hence so many Sig's on the list.




I've shot one once upon a time so I am aware which is why I would like her to try it first. I always start her off with just a single round in a new gun so she knows what the recoil is going to be like and she can decide if the wants to shoot more after.




Does the P30 have a shorter trigger reach than the VP9? I was under the impression that they had the same basic grip shape and I thought it would be right out because of that.



Noted about the G42. She doesn't like Glocks because it feels very blocky and uncomfortable. She didn't like the M&P Shield because the shape of the grip didn't fit her had. Between the three she preferred the Walther PPS M2.



She shot a friend's SP101 with 37 specials and did not like it. It was months ago so I can't remember why something with the size and balance of the gun (too much weight forward I think?) or maybe the recoil? I thought she should try a larger gun like a 686 or a GP100 and had her hold a GP100 but she found it too large and heavy.



I looked at the Sig P290 and added it to the list to try. I'm a little concerned with the trigger being a DAO model but I'll at least have her dry fire one in a store to see if she wants to shoot it. I'll do the same with the Sig SR9c.

It's a shame to hear that about the P07. I hope the new P10c will be better and not at all because I want an excuse to add another CZ to my collection.

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but she sounds rather picky. Given her propensity for needing a specific dimension in a pistol (easy to reach trigger) I think she should give some of these other options more of a chance than simply dismissing them.

They are guns after all. Defensive tools to be used in an emergency. They're not supposed to feel like a pedicure.


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[spinmove_]

I thought the SRT trigger stood for Short Reset Trigger not Short Reach Trigger? I thought it'd help with the reset not the initial starting position of the trigger?

Unfortunately it's interchangeable when referring to those two completely separate items, which is why you'll typically never see me using SRT when referring to either of those things.


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[Wondering Beard]

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but she sounds rather picky.

We live in a golden age of handguns right now, let's be thankful that she, and the rest of us, can afford to be picky due to the great amount of choices; though I agree that more extended sessions with the guns would help her more.

Oh, and yes, the trigger reach of the P30 is shorter than that of the VP9

[LostDuke]

I have a daughter with small hands. She loves the Ruger LC9 pro, it's the one she finds comfortable and fun to shoot. Set her with a couple of 9 rounds mags for the range.

[JHC]

Didn't we see some rave reviews of the Sig 250 in .380 a few months back? http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/changing-face-first-time-gun-buyer/

15 round mags. Tamara authored that.

[Luke]

Small sub compact

http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-p250-320-grip-module-assembly-9-40-357-sub-compact-small-small-grip.html

Small compact

http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-p250-320-grip-module-assembly-9-40-357-compact-small-small-grip-new-style.html

I've ordered frames from top gun as well as springer precision. They are out there, I've owned them ;)

[11B10]

Small sub compact

http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-p250-320-grip-module-assembly-9-40-357-sub-compact-small-small-grip.html

Small compact

http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-p250-320-grip-module-assembly-9-40-357-compact-small-small-grip-new-style.html

I've ordered frames from top gun as well as springer precision. They are out there, I've owned them ;)


Very much this ^^^^^ ! I have issues with not just trigger reach, but also mag catch releases. It's why I now carry a Sig P320 Compact. To be fair, you simply must try one, especially considering the big $$$ differences between the guns mentioned here. P320's start at $435 in my neighborhood.

[mrozowjj]

Small sub compact

http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-p250-320-grip-module-assembly-9-40-357-sub-compact-small-small-grip.html

Small compact

http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-p250-320-grip-module-assembly-9-40-357-compact-small-small-grip-new-style.html

I've ordered frames from top gun as well as springer precision. They are out there, I've owned them ;)

Well thank you sir. I mistakenly assumed that Sig would have them for sell directly and was concerned when they weren't in stock on their website. My google fu was weak and I could not find them elsewhere. That said they both appear to be out of stock.



Didn't we see some rave reviews of the Sig 250 in .380 a few months back? http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/changing-face-first-time-gun-buyer/

15 round mags. Tamara authored that.

I did not know they made the 250 in 380 for import. I remember hearing they were making it but I didn't know it was coming state side. Are they wasy to find?


Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but she sounds rather picky. Given her propensity for needing a specific dimension in a pistol (easy to reach trigger) I think she should give some of these other options more of a chance than simply dismissing them.

They are guns after all. Defensive tools to be used in an emergency. They're not supposed to feel like a pedicure.


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The pedicure comment was rude and uncalled for. A gun might be a defensive tool but all of us here agree that the gun you are confident in and are capable of shooting accurately rapidly is the best tool for the job. Most people here on this board are spoiled for choice because we have reasonably normal sized hands; we might prefer a 1911 or a Walther or a Sig but we could make a Glock or a Springfield or whatever work if we had to. She doesn't have that luxury. Yes she can probably make a larger gun work for her with more effort than most but if she can find one that fits her hand better and allows her to shoot more accurately and makes her confident in her abilities to do so isn't that then inherently the better tool for the job by anyone's metric? And even if it ends up that no such better option exists what is the harm in asking?

[JAD]

As a person with adult size S hands I think I would discard everything double column. The P35 might work but getting a reliable and ergonomic pair built up is prohibitively expensive and time consuming.

Single stack subcompacts are not fun for anyone to shoot.

The best gun for me is a 1911. Get an aluminum framed gun in 9x19 and install VZ slim grips and a short Videki trigger. Dan Wesson's Guardian is an excellent place to start. The Valkyrie is also awesome. Don't skimp on getting the slim grips in her hand, it's a game changer for reliably working the controls.

I also do well with both the steel and polymer full size Kahrs.

[Luke]

They fluctuate in and out of stock pretty regular. Shouldn't be an issue to get one if you so do desire.

[rauchman]

While I had recommended the Sig P320, I totally forgot to mention the one pistol that seems to do small hands really well....Browning High Power

[JHC]

As a person with adult size S hands I think I would discard everything double column. The P35 might work but getting a reliable and ergonomic pair built up is prohibitively expensive and time consuming.

Single stack subcompacts are not fun for anyone to shoot.

The best gun for me is a 1911. Get an aluminum framed gun in 9x19 and install VZ slim grips and a short Videki trigger. Dan Wesson's Guardian is an excellent place to start. The Valkyrie is also awesome. Don't skimp on getting the slim grips in her hand, it's a game changer for reliably working the controls.

I also do well with both the steel and polymer full size Kahrs.

Do you know what the recoil is like in the LW Commanders in 9mm?

[JAD]

I do, I do. It is mild. Full size grip and a beaver tail makes life easy.

[BobLoblaw]

Gen4 Glock 19 or 26 with SSvi Tyr Trigger and Colt 9mm 1911.

As a small-ish handed shooter, these would've been my recommendations (with minor changes for ease of access) in addition to the VP9 with small grip inserts and the M&P Shield. I experience more issues with trigger reach on the P30 vs the VP9. The Glock 42 and 43 are Glocks but there's a higher chance of having issues due to their size.

Frankly, the 9mm 1911 is probably the ticket. I would definitely pay attention to what JAD has to say.

[JHC]

I do, I do. It is mild. Full size grip and a beaver tail makes life easy.

Well hell. Lock the dang thread. :D

[spinmove_]

The pedicure comment was rude and uncalled for. A gun might be a defensive tool but all of us here agree that the gun you are confident in and are capable of shooting accurately rapidly is the best tool for the job. Most people here on this board are spoiled for choice because we have reasonably normal sized hands; we might prefer a 1911 or a Walther or a Sig but we could make a Glock or a Springfield or whatever work if we had to. She doesn't have that luxury. Yes she can probably make a larger gun work for her with more effort than most but if she can find one that fits her hand better and allows her to shoot more accurately and makes her confident in her abilities to do so isn't that then inherently the better tool for the job by anyone's metric? And even if it ends up that no such better option exists what is the harm in asking?

My comment was not meant to be offensive in any way, merely to simply drive home my point. That being said, I apologize for the offense. However I don't know you nor your significant other.

I do agree that there's absolutely no harm in asking or doing your due diligence in looking around for a better mouse trap. It absolutely would be ideal if she could find something that fit her perfectly and that she also like extremely well. But sometimes that option doesn't exist for some people. Every pistol on the market is going to have a list of pros and cons, they're all compromises in some capacity or another. The original point of this thread (from what I gathered) was that she needed a solution that gave her something to work with that had proper trigger reach for her. If she can find something reliable, has proper trigger reach, and is chambered in something that is good enough for bipedal predators, then I'd call that a win and all other positives are gravy. A lot of people get caught up in the minutiae of what's "perfect" and go through paralysis by analysis when they'd be far better off just picking something that's a known good quantity that's good enough and driving on. The training and the knowing of HOW to drive that or any other pistol is FAR more important than what you're packing.

By all means, continue your search for the perfect pistol. Most of us here, including myself, are still on that hunt in some form or fashion. But I wouldn't stop myself from carrying something that fit the bill for now either until I found that perfect pistol.


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[JAD]

. I would definitely pay attention to what JAD has to say.

I also give a lot of credence to what our small handed SME has t say on the subject-- anyone can learn to shoot any pistol with training and practice. Dude runs N frames.

[SkiDevil]

I taught my niece, whom is petite, and has small hands to shoot with an HK USP Compact in 9mm. I also had her use my P2000 SK in 9mm. No issues in using either. She actually preferred the larger USP C in 9mm.

I worked as an instructor in a large indoor pistol range and typically started ladies on a .38 revolver, .22 rimfire pistol, and then moved to a Glock 19 or 17. It was pretty rare that one of the Glocks didn't work out. In that case we used a G26.

The best recommendation is to find a large gun range with rentals and shoot a few different models to see what suits her.

I would agree with the others that a 1911 in 9mm could work perfectly to fit her, but at what cost? Do you have a budget set?

Personally, I would look at the HK P2000, P2000 SK, USP Compact, P30 SK series of pistols. Another option may be the Berreta 92 M compact, and the single stack option. The SIG P239 seems to fit smaller handed shooters well too.

Something else that I would note is of all the compact pistols I've shot, the P2000 SK and P30 SK actually shoot like a bigger gun. Shooting theses smaller pistols accurately is very easy for most people.

[RJ]

My gf has small hands, like wears a children's medium glove small.

I have been taking her to the range for a while. She likes my Walther PPQ and she is also fond of the Walther PPS M2 however recently I let her try my surplus CZ-83 and she remarked about how much easier the trigger was for her to reach compared to even the Walthers.

While the CZ-83 is a fine gun I personally don't think it's a good gun for her because it fires a not very common 9mm Makarov round. I have considered the commercial variant that comes in .380 but when I mentioned it to her she said she wants 9mm. I am trying to avoid the small girl therefore small gun stereotype by specifying the overall grip size doesn't matter nearly as much as the distance of the trigger to the rear of the grip so yes the tiny pocket 380s would probably fit the bill but those aren't what I am looking for. What I am looking for is suggestions for a 9mm gun in either single or double stack with a short trigger reach.

Guns she has tried and did not like
Glock 19 (I don't know why she just didn't like it)
HK VP9 - Despite putting on all of the smallest grip panels the trigger starts too far forward for her to reach. Seriously.
CZ SP01 (And Kadet)
M&P Shield
Ruger SP101


List of guns I want her to try:
1911 in 9mm - She has held one in 45 but she does not like the grip safety on this at all
Sig P239
Sig P938
Sig P225
Glock 42
CZ P07
Springfield XDs (She held one and remarked that it felt "cheap")

TL;DR Version, the GF has small hands and needs guns with a short trigger reach. A smaller grip is good but if the trigger starts too far forward than the trigger.

Is it possible for you to add a couple dimensions in inches of your GF's hands?

Say, overall length from heel to middle finger? And maybe trigger finger length?

That way those of us with fun-size female partners and smallish guns could help you by providing the same dimensions on pistols we own.

So for example my wife is 5'2", and I have a P30SK w all small panels. It's set up that way in case she ends up needing it.

[mrozowjj]

As a person with adult size S hands I think I would discard everything double column. The P35 might work but getting a reliable and ergonomic pair built up is prohibitively expensive and time consuming.

Single stack subcompacts are not fun for anyone to shoot.

The best gun for me is a 1911. Get an aluminum framed gun in 9x19 and install VZ slim grips and a short Videki trigger. Dan Wesson's Guardian is an excellent place to start. The Valkyrie is also awesome. Don't skimp on getting the slim grips in her hand, it's a game changer for reliably working the controls.

I also do well with both the steel and polymer full size Kahrs.


Noted.

Does it have to be a DW or can I make due with a lesser 1911? How do the VZ grips size wise compare to the say Magpul grips?

I actually had a Kahr CW9 once upon a time that I sold and I remember one of the reasons being it had a very short trigger reach so I'm feeling silly for not thinking about Kahr's sooner.

[mrozowjj]

Is it possible for you to add a couple dimensions in inches of your GF's hands?

Say, overall length from heel to middle finger? And maybe trigger finger length?

That way those of us with fun-size female partners and smallish guns could help you by providing the same dimensions on pistols we own.

So for example my wife is 5'2", and I have a P30SK w all small panels. It's set up that way in case she ends up needing it.


I just asked her to measure, the length from middle finger to back of hand is 6 inches and the length from her index/trigger finger to the back of her hand is 5.75 inches. That makes her an XS women's most women's glove sizes and a medium in children/youth gloves.

[JAD]

Noted.

Does it have to be a DW or can I make due with a lesser 1911? .

DW is making do. If you really love her you'll get her a Wilson.

[mrozowjj]

DW is making do. If you really love her you'll get her a Wilson.

Well I guess it's a good thing she's buying it for herself. Ha.

[Jason Burton]

Springfield Armory EMP-4 in 9mm.

Yes!

[MGW]

K series Kahr?

[Frank R]

Sig P320 Sub Compact.

[Malamute]

Anyone know what the P-08 trigger reach is?










No, not really serious.

[RJ]

Anyone know what the P-08 trigger reach is?

No, not really serious.

I shot one! A buddy had a shooter grade one he brought for me to try, along with his Glock, a few years ago.

I'd say the grip as I remember was really really small. I recall the trigger was really light, too, just a 'click' then BANG the toggle would cycle.

[jeep45238]

I found that the Kahr series of pistols have incredibly short length of pulls for their size, including their full-size versions


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[JAD]

Jason Burton said the EMP-4 is GTG. Now I have to run out and buy one.

[Malamute]

I shot one! A buddy had a shooter grade one he brought for me to try, along with his Glock, a few years ago.

I'd say the grip as I remember was really really small. I recall the trigger was really light, too, just a 'click' then BANG the toggle would cycle.

Now I have to run out and buy one,....

[JHC]

Jason Burton said the EMP-4 is GTG. Now I have to run out and buy one.

Off the top of your head, does it take standard 1911 9mm mags? EDIT: Nevermind, just saw Wiley Clapp's review. Unique mag.

[RJ]

I just asked her to measure, the length from middle finger to back of hand is 6 inches and the length from her index/trigger finger to the back of her hand is 5.75 inches. That makes her an XS women's most women's glove sizes and a medium in children/youth gloves.

Ok, here is some data for you.

Measurement 1 is Overall Length, from heel crease to longest finger.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161230/18548704ef576ffb814c6eeb3342deee.jpg

For me, it's about 7", As pictured above.

My wife measures 6 1/8" for this measurement.

Measurement 2 is trigger finger length. Mine is 2 1/2", as below:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161230/12adbd8b5b604f6fb6f0407f32aed94e.jpg

My wife measures 2 3/8" for measurement 2.

With those numbers in mind, this is what her full firing grip looks like on my P30SK, with all small panels installed:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161230/a6005e0eba461de3e16bb4af0c54f6ac.jpg

Hope this helps.

[FPS]

Sig P938 variant with the Hogue grip would be my recommendation. Caveat - mine had to go back to Sig as this model has some issues but Sig took care of it fast and it has been flawless in 600 rds since. Great shooter for a small gun. 1911 manual of arms though.

[mrozowjj]

Went to the range yesterday. She is a scientist so she insisted we remove as many variables as we can so she shot 10 rounds through 11 different guns at the same distance and then we measured the results. She tried:

Glock 43
PPQ
Sig P239
PPS M2
Kahr P9
HK P30
Sig 938
Ruger SR9
S&W Shield
Ruger LC9S
PPS M1

Of those she shot these well so we'll likely be looking at one of them going forward:
Ruger SR9
PPQ
PPS M2
HK P30
Glock 43

Some other notes:
She liked that the Ruger SR9 had such a slim grip. It seemed to fit her hand well and she enjoyed shooting it.
She got the best group of the day with the Glock 43 but upon inspection it's the only gun she missed the paper with twice meaning there was only 8 rounds out of 10. She also hated the grip on it called it blocky and uncomfortable.
Despite the fact that she could not reach the trigger on a HK VP9 she could reach the trigger on the P30 and it was her favorite gun of the day.

She hated the trigger on the Kahr P9.
The Ruger LC9s trigger safety thing kept getting stuck in her finger and pinching it.

[psalms144.1]

SNIP

Of those she shot these well so we'll likely be looking at one of them going forward:
Ruger SR9
PPQ
PPS M2
HK P30
Glock 43

Some other notes:
She liked that the Ruger SR9 had such a slim grip. It seemed to fit her hand well and she enjoyed shooting it.
She got the best group of the day with the Glock 43 but upon inspection it's the only gun she missed the paper with twice meaning there was only 8 rounds out of 10. She also hated the grip on it called it blocky and uncomfortable.
Despite the fact that she could not reach the trigger on a HK VP9 she could reach the trigger on the P30 and it was her favorite gun of the day.My unsolicited opinion:

1. I wouldn't intentionally give anyone I cared about a Ruger semi-automatic for serious purposes, unless it was a .22 pistol for training. The SR9 is Ruger's "Economy" line pistol, so, I would run, not walk, away from that, no matter how "good it felt" in her hands.
2. The PPQ gets rave reviews from most who've shot it, but it's also a "special snowflake" with limited accessories, holsters, parts, etc.
3. The PPS M2 is another pistol that gets rave reviews, and I'll trust all my betters who have more experience, but it's the first pistol on your list that I'd consider a contender for a serious pistol
4. The P30 is obviously the highest quality pistol on your list, but it's hampered by triggers that aren't always the greatest or easiest to learn to shoot well. The Light LEM would be my choice if you want to go that route. Also, if your better half is thinking about concealed carry at some point, I'd bet a large number of PF dollars that you'll find in short order that a P30sk will be required.
5. The G43 does nothing for me, which is a shame, because I'm otherwise darned near an all GLOCK guy. I find it a squirmy little son-of-a-gun with a trigger that's the worst of the Glock lineup (at least on my example). But, like the PPS, it's a handy size that can be concealed with some ease by nearly anyone willing to take a bare minimum of effort to conceal...

Were I in your shoes, I'd gently suggest the P30 (or P30sk) followed by the PPS, followed (reluctantly) by the G43.

[mrozowjj]

My unsolicited opinion:

1. I wouldn't intentionally give anyone I cared about a Ruger semi-automatic for serious purposes, unless it was a .22 pistol for training. The SR9 is Ruger's "Economy" line pistol, so, I would run, not walk, away from that, no matter how "good it felt" in her hands.
2. The PPQ gets rave reviews from most who've shot it, but it's also a "special snowflake" with limited accessories, holsters, parts, etc.
3. The PPS M2 is another pistol that gets rave reviews, and I'll trust all my betters who have more experience, but it's the first pistol on your list that I'd consider a contender for a serious pistol
4. The P30 is obviously the highest quality pistol on your list, but it's hampered by triggers that aren't always the greatest or easiest to learn to shoot well. The Light LEM would be my choice if you want to go that route. Also, if your better half is thinking about concealed carry at some point, I'd bet a large number of PF dollars that you'll find in short order that a P30sk will be required.
5. The G43 does nothing for me, which is a shame, because I'm otherwise darned near an all GLOCK guy. I find it a squirmy little son-of-a-gun with a trigger that's the worst of the Glock lineup (at least on my example). But, like the PPS, it's a handy size that can be concealed with some ease by nearly anyone willing to take a bare minimum of effort to conceal...

Were I in your shoes, I'd gently suggest the P30 (or P30sk) followed by the PPS, followed (reluctantly) by the G43.

I thought the Ruger 9e was their budget line and the SR9 was at least for a time their flagship handgun. I'm not sure where it falls now they have the Ruger American line of pistols. Regardless I do remember people saying good things about the SR9 when it was newish so I'm a bit surprised to see something that negative said about them.

Both Walthers were my guns and not range rentals. I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to the PPQ being a special snowflake. It has less after market stuff than the Glock or 1911 but unless you plan to turn it into a USPSA Limited or Open gun it's plenty good. Dawson makes sights for both PPQ and PPS which is what I have on my guns and JM Kydex makes makes holsters for both and I have a Comp Tac holster for my PPQ I use in IDPA and USPSA. Though if you want a mag well or after market guide rod or any of that stuff you're right, you're out of luck. I personally think the PPS M2 is the best striker fired gun for AIWB but that is a topic for a different post.

I'm not familiar with all the different P30 triggers out there. The model we rented had a safety and was the regular sized gun. They had some P30SK in the gun case so we will give that a look when we go next time. The store also two of the P30 models in the used case that I honestly considered buying because I really enjoyed shooting the P30 myself. I am thinking about going back after work and grabbing it on the way home actually but that's again a topic for a different post.

All in all the decision made was she needs to shoot those 5 listed above more to make a proper decision.

[Montesf1030]

I recently purchase a PPS M2 and is already on my main CCW rotation ... Has actually almost replace my Glock 26 on the rotation ... My Glock 19 is till my primary CCW


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[spinmove_]

I thought the Ruger 9e was their budget line and the SR9 was at least for a time their flagship handgun. I'm not sure where it falls now they have the Ruger American line of pistols. Regardless I do remember people saying good things about the SR9 when it was newish so I'm a bit surprised to see something that negative said about them.

Both Walthers were my guns and not range rentals. I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to the PPQ being a special snowflake. It has less after market stuff than the Glock or 1911 but unless you plan to turn it into a USPSA Limited or Open gun it's plenty good. Dawson makes sights for both PPQ and PPS which is what I have on my guns and JM Kydex makes makes holsters for both and I have a Comp Tac holster for my PPQ I use in IDPA and USPSA. Though if you want a mag well or after market guide rod or any of that stuff you're right, you're out of luck. I personally think the PPS M2 is the best striker fired gun for AIWB but that is a topic for a different post.

I'm not familiar with all the different P30 triggers out there. The model we rented had a safety and was the regular sized gun. They had some P30SK in the gun case so we will give that a look when we go next time. The store also two of the P30 models in the used case that I honestly considered buying because I really enjoyed shooting the P30 myself. I am thinking about going back after work and grabbing it on the way home actually but that's again a topic for a different post.

All in all the decision made was she needs to shoot those 5 listed above more to make a proper decision.

The Ruger semi-autos in general (sans the older P-series) generally aren't all that durable from what I've heard. I haven't run one hard myself, but there are far better options in the list that she likes.

The Walthers are a bit "special snowflake" because of their limited aftermarket. It's not a bad thing, just something to keep in mind. They're definitely good options.

It's hard to beat a P30. The P30sk is essentially it's G26 sized counterpart. If it were me, I'd do LEM on either one and call it good.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Beat Trash]

Went to the range yesterday. She is a scientist so she insisted we remove as many variables as we can so she shot 10 rounds through 11 different guns at the same distance and then we measured the results. She tried:

Of those she shot these well so we'll likely be looking at one of them going forward:
Ruger SR9
PPQ
PPS M2
HK P30
Glock 43

Some other notes:
She liked that the Ruger SR9 had such a slim grip. It seemed to fit her hand well and she enjoyed shooting it.
She got the best group of the day with the Glock 43 but upon inspection it's the only gun she missed the paper with twice meaning there was only 8 rounds out of 10. She also hated the grip on it called it blocky and uncomfortable.
Despite the fact that she could not reach the trigger on a HK VP9 she could reach the trigger on the P30 and it was her favorite gun of the day.

She hated the trigger on the Kahr P9.
The Ruger LC9s trigger safety thing kept getting stuck in her finger and pinching it.

I agree with psalms about avoiding the Ruger seem automatics. I seen enough issues and potential issues that I'd avoid them.

I own a Glock 43 that my wife absconded. She's about the same size as your gf. My wife took my G43 as a CCW gun for times when it's all that she can effectively conceal (which is most of the time). But it's definitely not her favorite gun to shoot.

If your gf is not concerned about concealment, then avoid the G43 and go with something more pleasant to shoot.

The HK P30 is an excellent pistol. If she shoots it well, run out and buy one. I might even look at a LEM model.

The Walther PPQ is a "special snowflake" in that aftermarket options for holsters, sights, ect isn't as strong as other makes/models. But it's a good gun.

The PPS M2 is a good pistol, but with limited capacity. If concealment isn't an issue, why limit yourself capacity wise.

I owned a Sig 320 compact that was purchased for my wife. I still own the small grip for it (haven't gotten around to putting it up for sale yet). The size would probably work for your gf. But right now Sig 320 c's in 9mm are hard to find. So it would be hard for her to try one out. If it's still a contender, PM me and maybe I can loan you the small grip for her to try out. But without a gun installed on the grip, it's hard to get a realistic feel for the gun. The 320 compact was a good 15 shot pistol, but it has a lot of small parts, even on the striker assembly. And at the end of the day, it didn't do anything that I couldn't do with one of my other guns. So I sold it off.

In your position, I would take her to the range again and have her shoot three guns. The HK P30, the PPQ and the PPS M2. Whichever one she likes the best out of that list, go buy it...

[11B10]

Sig P320 Sub Compact.




To be fair, she should try the P320 - in either the Compact or Sub Compact. I had my P320 C in my hands before I started typing this - I have some "reach issues" myself and I can wrap my trigger finger on mine. Try it - the bargain is great, considering some of the other choices being suggested here. My local FFL has any size P320 with night sights, for under $500.

[11B10]

Ok, here is some data for you.

Measurement 1 is Overall Length, from heel crease to longest finger.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161230/18548704ef576ffb814c6eeb3342deee.jpg

For me, it's about 7", As pictured above.

My wife measures 6 1/8" for this measurement.

Measurement 2 is trigger finger length. Mine is 2 1/2", as below:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161230/12adbd8b5b604f6fb6f0407f32aed94e.jpg

My wife measures 2 3/8" for measurement 2.

With those numbers in mind, this is what her full firing grip looks like on my P30SK, with all small panels installed:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161230/a6005e0eba461de3e16bb4af0c54f6ac.jpg

Hope this helps.




Rich - great job on the OP's request. Only one question: Did you HAVE to put a picture of your P30SK in it? Damn, they're cool.

[11B10]

I recently purchase a PPS M2 and is already on my main CCW rotation ... Has actually almost replace my Glock 26 on the rotation ... My Glock 19 is till my primary CCW


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Off thread again - quick question: Do you carry the G19 AIWB or ?

[psalms144.1]

Sorry if my short and snarky answer offended you. As others have chimed in, reliability, long term, with any Ruger center fire semi automatic pistol is questionable. If your gf is just going to buy it, shoot 50 rounds a month, and keep it in the sock drawer, you're unlikely to have any issues.

Likewise, the PPQ is a great gun, BUT, if you're going to run one hard, and parts start breaking, my experience (and the experience of others I know and trust) is that finding help from Walther is going to be problematic. Again, if it's a couple-hundred round a year pistol, unlikely to be an issue.

If, on the other hand, you and your gf are going to be serious about shooting the way that many PF shooters are (several hundred to several thousand rounds a MONTH, not a year), both of those platforms are likely to prove problematic.

As Beat Trash pointed out, neither the PPS nor the G43 make sense if this is going to be a range-only pistol - the smaller the pistol, the harder to shoot accurately, and the more recoil - you just can't beat physics on this one. Hence, my recommendation that you look at the P30 family first and foremost. WRT which model, if this is a range only pistol, then I'd look for the P30L - no reason to go small. If carry is in the picture, I'd look at the P30sk. On the question of triggers, the P30's are available in a variety of configurations:
-Traditional Double Action (TDA) which has a long heavy first trigger pull, followed by a shorter, lighter trigger pull for subsequent shots. The problem with HKs, especially the P30s, is their DA trigger tends to be VERY heavy, and not a smooth as most of us would like. The problem with any TDA for a new shooter is two-fold - first they have to learn to adapt to two different trigger pulls (long-heavy then short-light); and they have to learn to decock the pistol between strings of fire to avoid reholstering a cocked and UNlocked pistol. Both are easily overcome with enough training, which brings us back to how much training is your GF likely to get? The P30 with TDA is referred to by HK as the P30 Variant 3
-The HK Law Enforcement Module (LEM) is a typically described as a double action only - the trigger pull cocks the hammer and releases on each pull. The truth is the LEM is really a long take up SINGLE ACTION ONLY - the hammer is MOSTLY precocked by the action of the slide, and the initial take up of the trigger is just moving the external hammer - so a long, light take up, which breaks at a definitive "wall." The LEM is a love it or hate it system - not designed for speed shooting, but VERY good for defensive purposes. I'm mostly out of the HK business now, but the only remaining HK I've got is a 45c which I converted to light LEM. The P30 with light LEM is referred to by HK as P30 Variant 1. "Heavy" LEM is the P30 Variant 2
-Both of the above can be found in the "S" configuration with an external safety. The "S" version LEMs are rarer than hens teeth. The safeties work well, though for some folks the placement is problematic and interferes with a good firing grip. I like the safeties on some HK models - I like the ability to administratively handle with pistol (load, unload, etc) with the safety engaged - but, I'm perfectly OK on pistols without them as well. The models with safety would be listed as HK P30S or P30LS (long slide safety) Variant X (for whatever trigger is on it)

Hope that helps.

[11B10]

Sorry if my short and snarky answer offended you. As others have chimed in, reliability, long term, with any Ruger center fire semi automatic pistol is questionable. If your gf is just going to buy it, shoot 50 rounds a month, and keep it in the sock drawer, you're unlikely to have any issues.

Likewise, the PPQ is a great gun, BUT, if you're going to run one hard, and parts start breaking, my experience (and the experience of others I know and trust) is that finding help from Walther is going to be problematic. Again, if it's a couple-hundred round a year pistol, unlikely to be an issue.

If, on the other hand, you and your gf are going to be serious about shooting the way that many PF shooters are (several hundred to several thousand rounds a MONTH, not a year), both of those platforms are likely to prove problematic.

As Beat Trash pointed out, neither the PPS nor the G43 make sense if this is going to be a range-only pistol - the smaller the pistol, the harder to shoot accurately, and the more recoil - you just can't beat physics on this one. Hence, my recommendation that you look at the P30 family first and foremost. WRT which model, if this is a range only pistol, then I'd look for the P30L - no reason to go small. If carry is in the picture, I'd look at the P30sk. On the question of triggers, the P30's are available in a variety of configurations:
-Traditional Double Action (TDA) which has a long heavy first trigger pull, followed by a shorter, lighter trigger pull for subsequent shots. The problem with HKs, especially the P30s, is their DA trigger tends to be VERY heavy, and not a smooth as most of us would like. The problem with any TDA for a new shooter is two-fold - first they have to learn to adapt to two different trigger pulls (long-heavy then short-light); and they have to learn to decock the pistol between strings of fire to avoid reholstering a cocked and UNlocked pistol. Both are easily overcome with enough training, which brings us back to how much training is your GF likely to get? The P30 with TDA is referred to by HK as the P30 Variant 3
-The HK Law Enforcement Module (LEM) is a typically described as a double action only - the trigger pull cocks the hammer and releases on each pull. The truth is the LEM is really a long take up SINGLE ACTION ONLY - the hammer is MOSTLY precocked by the action of the slide, and the initial take up of the trigger is just moving the external hammer - so a long, light take up, which breaks at a definitive "wall." The LEM is a love it or hate it system - not designed for speed shooting, but VERY good for defensive purposes. I'm mostly out of the HK business now, but the only remaining HK I've got is a 45c which I converted to light LEM. The P30 with light LEM is referred to by HK as P30 Variant 1. "Heavy" LEM is the P30 Variant 2
-Both of the above can be found in the "S" configuration with an external safety. The "S" version LEMs are rarer than hens teeth. The safeties work well, though for some folks the placement is problematic and interferes with a good firing grip. I like the safeties on some HK models - I like the ability to administratively handle with pistol (load, unload, etc) with the safety engaged - but, I'm perfectly OK on pistols without them as well. The models with safety would be listed as HK P30S or P30LS (long slide safety) Variant X (for whatever trigger is on it)

Hope that helps.




It sure educated me! I've read HK's description of their optional stuff, but yours is in "pf speak," which I seem to understand so much better. Thanks - much appreciated.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Honestly, if she ever expects to try carrying it: p30sk

It shoots much closer to a full-sized gun than any sub-compact I've handled save the G26. Maybe even better than the G26, but I haven't shot one recently. You can always get bigger mags and possibly grip sleeves like Rich has done, or just run em naked.

If I had a serious use for a sub-compact in my life, I'd own 3 of them instead of my p2000's.

I prefer the LEM, but I have not had any issues with the reduced power hammer spring in a p30. So that is a potential for dropping the DA pull to something reasonable on a V3 gun.

[mrozowjj]

I'm just confused how the Walthers are considered special snowflakes for lack of available replacement parts should something break but the HK aren't. I haven't looked too hard but is there really that many places you can go to buy replacement parts for HKs should something break?

The only pistols I know about with easily and readily available internal parts to swap out should something break are 1911s, Glocks, CZ-75, S&W and Hi Powers. I mean I'm sure there's more but those are the big ones I can think of. And even among those there are still certain parts that you just can't find elsewhere easily.

Is the old joke that HK hates consumers and difficult to deal with no longer valid?

[PNWTO]

I'm just confused how the Walthers are considered special snowflakes for lack of available replacement parts should something break but the HK aren't. I haven't looked too hard but is there really that many places you can go to buy replacement parts for HKs should something break?

I my experiences and web-perusing SW/Walther has not been very supportive of issues while HK has been, as well as places like HKParts and HKPro that provide knowledge and equipment, respectively. I may be wrong, but I think a lot of users here just work directly with HK for service and parts.




Is the old joke that HK hates consumers and difficult to deal with no longer valid?

Most definitely. I would say that joke hasn't been applicable in a decade.

I would second the P30 series with whatever LEM set-up she likes. I am quickly approaching satisfaction that my only handguns that aren't a .44 or .22 are Glocks and HKs. I would stay far, far away from any Ruger handgun that wasn't a rimfire or revolver.

[PNWTO]

ignore

[Sauer Koch]

FWIW, my wife (5' 3" x 125#) chose the Sig M11 A-1, and we had Sig do a trigger job, primarily to lighten it up just a bit, and she actually preferred the 'fat' standard trigger on our 226, so we had them replace the short reach trigger with the thicker one. Your gf may like the stock, thin trigger on the M11.

She just did a tactical pistol course with it, and did very well. She's been shooting Sigs for about a year now, and prefers the heavierDA pull weight as her 'safety', and likes the de-cocker feature, considering it's her carry gun.

[mrozowjj]

I my experiences and web-perusing SW/Walther has not been very supportive of issues while HK has been, as well as places like HKParts and HKPro that provide knowledge and equipment, respectively. I may be wrong, but I think a lot of users here just work directly with HK for service and parts.





Most definitely. I would say that joke hasn't been applicable in a decade.

I would second the P30 series with whatever LEM set-up she likes. I am quickly approaching satisfaction that my only handguns that aren't a .44 or .22 are Glocks and HKs. I would stay far, far away from any Ruger handgun that wasn't a rimfire or revolver.

Well that's all news to me. Good news too.

I bought a P30 they had at the range/LGS. When we went to the range to rent all those guns I shot the P30 and I shot it extremely well and I had been considering maybe adding one to safe ever since and this was just sitting there in the used case and was too good of a deal to pass up so I thought why not.

So at least the GF can shoot the P30, PPQ, and PPS a lot before she decides what to do.

I think the range has the P30SK so depending on which way she leans (ie carry gun or range toy) she can get all her bases covered to give them all some testing before she decides one way or the other.

[psalms144.1]

I'm just confused how the Walthers are considered special snowflakes for lack of available replacement parts should something break but the HK aren't. I haven't looked too hard but is there really that many places you can go to buy replacement parts for HKs should something break?

Is the old joke that HK hates consumers and difficult to deal with no longer valid?Not even close to true. Any part I need I can get in a matter of minutes from any of a number of websites, and, if it needs real work, HK USA is top notch on CS. I get that you have an emotional investment in your Walther, but, hey, you asked OUR advice...

[pastaslinger]

CZ trigger reach is so short that it is uncomfortable for me

try a P09/07. I think if the frames were bigger I would have bought one and cajunized it

[mrozowjj]

Not even close to true. Any part I need I can get in a matter of minutes from any of a number of websites, and, if it needs real work, HK USA is top notch on CS. I get that you have an emotional investment in your Walther, but, hey, you asked OUR advice...

You are the one that seems to be getting emotional here. It's a gun. I like it. I like lots of guns. On a long enough time line I'll like something else more. I simply was not aware there was any places to get parts for HKs because last time I looked which was a long time ago there wasn't any and that's why I was confused why I was being told no Walthers because you can't find parts but yes to HK because I thought they were both in the same boat. Happy to hear that's not the case though. Thank you for clearing that up.

[kitten_frenzy]

Get a G19 and throw an overwatch precision trigger in there. Drastically reduces the trigger reach with its shortened pretravel.

[dookie1481]

CZ trigger reach is so short that it is uncomfortable for me

try a P09/07. I think if the frames were bigger I would have bought one and cajunized it

Is there some context to your statement that I missed? If you think ANY CZ trigger reach is short, your hand size makes your input pretty much irrelevant to this thread.

[JTQ]

Is there some context to your statement that I missed? If you think ANY CZ trigger reach is short, your hand size makes your input pretty much irrelevant to this thread.
I agree with you. The CZ75B, while having a very comfortable grip shape, is not small hand friendly. The DA trigger reach is very long, and the thumb safety, if you decide to forgo DA and use it as a single action only, is also a long reach.

[mrozowjj]

For those of you that might be curious she has decided the P30 is the beset fit for her tiny hands. She has been using my P30 almost exclusively at the range. However at the last range visit I gave her my XDm 5.25" model in 45 that I outfitted for IDPA CDP division and she shot it better than she shot the HK. I think she realized grip might make it more comfortable to shoot but a good trigger and good trigger control is what makes it easy to shoot a gun well. This has kind of steered her towards the PPQ because it's the second best grip and a significantly better trigger.

That said I just checked out a P30 LEM model and that trigger was much better so maybe the P30 is still an option.

[JustOneGun]

For those of you that might be curious she has decided the P30 is the beset fit for her tiny hands. She has been using my P30 almost exclusively at the range. However at the last range visit I gave her my XDm 5.25" model in 45 that I outfitted for IDPA CDP division and she shot it better than she shot the HK. I think she realized grip might make it more comfortable to shoot but a good trigger and good trigger control is what makes it easy to shoot a gun well. This has kind of steered her towards the PPQ because it's the second best grip and a significantly better trigger.

That said I just checked out a P30 LEM model and that trigger was much better so maybe the P30 is still an option.

Actually I wouldn't mind if you kept us updated.

We instructors understand that it's all about how you shoot it and not how it feels. But new shooters sometimes disagree. If you push they might end up not shooting anything. It sounds like you are patient and are allowing her to find her own way. If she is shooting and improving then it's great. She may end up with the P30 and be fine. She may one day gravitate to the hated Glock that so many shoot so well.

IMO, one thing to remember, if she is improving and starting to shoot regularly then quickly finding and sticking to one gun is not a bad idea. That's true even if she ends up changing a year or two later. Bouncing from gun to gun when new can inhibit development of the fundamentals that could last forever (or functionally forever for many shooters.) I've seen new shooters spend a year finding the right trigger for themselves and then started to learn to shoot.

I do think it is easier for someone to learn and protect themselves with a trigger that is the same for each shot. Glock, LEM, etc. I hate, hate, hate the DA/SA. But if she insists then have her shoot it. So what. It's a bit harder to learn but that doesn't mean it's impossible. LOL.

Just food for thought.

[MajorLonghorn]

To be fair, she should try the P320 - in either the Compact or Sub Compact. I had my P320 C in my hands before I started typing this - I have some "reach issues" myself and I can wrap my trigger finger on mine. Try it - the bargain is great, considering some of the other choices being suggested here. My local FFL has any size P320 with night sights, for under $500.

My daughter is less than 5' tall, and the handgun she prefers is the P320sc. The Sub-Compact -Small frame has less material on the grip than the Compact-Small or Full-Size-Small grips, so it really helps for short-fingered people. I set it up for her with X-Grips and extended magazines for the extra capacity, though I may sand down and stipple a Compact-Small frame for her. The beauty of the P320 modular platform is that you can experiment in this way without causing permanent damage.

[mrozowjj]

Actually I wouldn't mind if you kept us updated.

We instructors understand that it's all about how you shoot it and not how it feels. But new shooters sometimes disagree. If you push they might end up not shooting anything. It sounds like you are patient and are allowing her to find her own way. If she is shooting and improving then it's great. She may end up with the P30 and be fine. She may one day gravitate to the hated Glock that so many shoot so well.

IMO, one thing to remember, if she is improving and starting to shoot regularly then quickly finding and sticking to one gun is not a bad idea. That's true even if she ends up changing a year or two later. Bouncing from gun to gun when new can inhibit development of the fundamentals that could last forever (or functionally forever for many shooters.) I've seen new shooters spend a year finding the right trigger for themselves and then started to learn to shoot.

I do think it is easier for someone to learn and protect themselves with a trigger that is the same for each shot. Glock, LEM, etc. I hate, hate, hate the DA/SA. But if she insists then have her shoot it. So what. It's a bit harder to learn but that doesn't mean it's impossible. LOL.

Just food for thought.


Yeah she is learning many of the things I had to learn when I was starting out. I tried to tell her some of this but I think some conclusions people need to arrive at by themselves and it's easy for me to be patient because it took a good 4 years before I could shoot what resembled a group at 15 yards.

I agree with you as far as only shooting one gun. I learned that one myself the hard way too when I was starting out 12 years ago. Switching guns every so often. Then I said I need to shoot just my Glock 17 and only the Glock 17. So much so that if I went to the range and people offered to let me shoot their new toy I declined. A few range sessions ago she shot a few guns switching between them and was disappointed in how things were going so I told her from now on she's only allowed to shoot the P30. I only let her shoot the XDm at the end of her last range session.

I also agree that DA/SA guns are maybe not ideal for learning however she always shoots the P30 in SA mode anyway so it is consistent each time.

What really seemed to improve her shooting in the last range session drastically was I told her this method that I learned when I was new to just pull and pause; IE pull the trigger a little bit and then pause. Pull it a little more and then pause. And just keep doing that imagine moving the trigger as little as you can each time until eventually it goes off. It improved her shooting but it also made her very aware of how not great the HK P30 trigger was. Ha. I'm not sure if that is the best technique but it's how I learned trigger control.

I am trying to convince her she needs to dry fire to learn that trigger control but every time I suggest it she (pun intended) shoots down the idea. I was thinking about getting her some of those gripmaster things they use to teach finger strength to help guitar players get finger muscles but reviews on whether they improve shooting are mixed.

[Duelist]

There are no significant muscles in the fingers. The gripmaster thingies only help a very little, and can *cause* problems, like overuse injuries. Just lifting and rolling around a 3-5# dumbbell would probably help more. Getting more serious about weights, doing pull-ups, push-ups, all help the muscle groups involved in shooting much more than a gripmaster.

I play guitar. I bought a gripmaster once upon a time to mess around with. I realized quickly that playing guitar doesn't require enough strength to be helped by doing anything except playing and doing drills on the guitar.

[mrozowjj]

There are no significant muscles in the fingers. The gripmaster thingies only help a very little, and can *cause* problems, like overuse injuries. Just lifting and rolling around a 3-5# dumbbell would probably help more. Getting more serious about weights, doing pull-ups, push-ups, all help the muscle groups involved in shooting much more than a gripmaster.

I play guitar. I bought a gripmaster once upon a time to mess around with. I realized quickly that playing guitar doesn't require enough strength to be helped by doing anything except playing and doing drills on the guitar.

Fair enough. That saved me $15.

I was looking for an option similar to the SIRT without the SIRT prices. I'd take a blue gun with a trigger in it. Kind of surprised no one is making that actually.

[JustOneGun]

Fair enough. That saved me $15.

I was looking for an option similar to the SIRT without the SIRT prices. I'd take a blue gun with a trigger in it. Kind of surprised no one is making that actually.



For the purposes of shooting a trigger I agree with Duelist. I don't think you need a gripmaster. That is not to say a stronger grip isn't necessary. If it is a weak link then it can cause a person not to be able to use all of their muscles. Most of us don't have an over abundance of muscle, so we need to use all that we have. I believe in the idea, don't injury yourself in training. I wish I had learned that sooner. Damn Osteoarthritis. Gripmaster and things like it can cause wear and tear on the body that isn't needed. Shooting more, doing real exercises, especially pulling exercises can take care of any hand weakness issues in a far better, slower and easier way.

I'm a big fan of teaching a new person to find the front sight and press using a blank wall and shooting at first with no target. I think going with a target to look at leads many a new person to tell us a year later that they are a front sight and press shooter. What many of them clearly are is a target focused shooter. It inhibits their ability to shoot accurately for a long time. Improvement is seeing her trigger finger move at a steady state. The small presses works as a mental model of distraction for someone with real flinching problems.

I would always explain the trigger press by holding out my crooked finger on an imaginary trigger and press at a steady speed. A radar gun would show my finger going a constant speed from start to finish. Then I would press with an increase in speed, looks like a slap. A radar gun would show it was not a constant speed but was actually increasing throughout the finger's travel. Obviously as you know it takes time to get it in their own minds.

Sometimes ideas like small presses at a time or counting to themselves is what they need. Ultimately you should invite her to join you and watch your dryfire. Get her to watch you. Then you can perhaps go back to the fundamentals yourself. Heck we all need to do that from time to time. I'm in the process of doing that myself. I got a little sloppy lately. Okay, I got a lot sloppy lately. ): That way you can lead by example and not try to teach her. Ultimately even a good instructor has problems teaching loved ones to shoot. Once she has the basics it might be a good idea to send her to someone else.