VSO YouTube channel on the 4 rules and the latest Yeager/Tactical Response video

[LittleLebowski]

I got nothing.


Tactical Response video:


https://youtu.be/Ec7l6_8TK_Y


VSO response:


https://youtu.be/ou4m0aQZ-x4

[JCS]

Wow. Just wow.

[busdriver]

VSO, the very special operators.

[blues]

VSO, the very special operators.

I thought it was what they were drinking before making the video. :confused:

[Lon]

Ok. I think he's a dumbass for how he did the video, but I do think there's a time and a place for putting the 4 rules into that context. For example, there have been many times in SWAT training scenarios or police training scenarios where we have had guys "down range" from the person firing the rounds. Kill houses, sniper initiated assaults, etc. But I would never do that with brand new or relatively new or shooters that were new to me.

[JCS]

What's his cutoff for when it is and isn't acceptable to be downrange? Would he stand shoulder to shoulder with the target while someone shot? Would he stand 3 feet away with a brand new shooter? Would he stand that same distance with someone shooting while being pushed in a wheelchair?

[TGS]

Ok. I think he's a dumbass for how he did the video, but I do think there's a time and a place for putting the 4 rules into that context. For example, there have been many times in SWAT training scenarios or police training scenarios where we have had guys "down range" from the person firing the rounds. Kill houses, sniper initiated assaults, etc. But I would never do that with brand new or relatively new or shooters that were new to me.

I agree. Safety is a reduction in risk, not elimination of. There is a time and place where a learning objective necessitates greater risk.

_________________________________

There are certain safety measures put into place during training scenarios to further increase safety beyond what a strict interpretation of the 4 firearms safety rules would get you....This includes line integrity during movement drills with a fully packed range. This is universally regarded as a good idea, even with shooters who are very experienced and skilled.

If line integrity isn't possible with the drill, then there are things that can be done to still increase safety by increasing the angles available to the shooter, like running multiple stations instead of a contiguous line, having the shooters oriented towards the corners, and so on.

In the end, the same shooters who need to do 360* live fire shoot houses, and drills assessed as having high risk, are still maintaining line integrity when packed next to each other for simple basic movement drills. Just because you're highly skilled doesn't mean you need to ignore safety measures: if you don't have to increase risk, don't bother increasing risk. It's as simple as that.

What is unfortunate is that for all of VSOs apparent mastery, experience, and skill, he doesn't understand that simple fact and implementation (assessment, design and execution) of safety measures. He's only proving that he doesn't understand the concept of safety as it applies to range training.

After all, it's much easier to bark incessantly throughout the video about how you all suck.

[LittleLebowski]

VSO, the very special operators.

I'm having trouble finding out anything about this guy.

[busdriver]

As far as I know, just some dudes that started a youtube channel and went to some Yeager classes.

[SLG]

I only watched the first video. No question that appears unsafe, regardless of what rules you believe in.

[txdpd]

It's people that can't follow simple safety rules and practices that unsurprisingly tend to be at the center of "accidents" and other unexpected incidents.

Whether it's Crossfit, lifting weights, driving a car, shooting, running a chainsaw, etc, people with unsafe practices in a controlled environment are a predictable recipe for disaster.

[BJXDS]

Will they be at Tac-Con? WTF,WTF!!, that's about all I got.

[LittleLebowski]

Will they be at Tac-Con? WTF,WTF!!, that's about all I got.

I'm still curious as to who "they" are.

[Dagga Boy]

I am just glad there is a place for the students we don't want. I am glad the market is so good that risk mitigation is unnecessary for some groups, and more power to them. The nice thing about being mentored in life by guys like Scott Reitz and Pat Rogers is that when you have done a bunch of this stuff for real, and seen how bad things can go in the real world that you do whatever you can to not have training tragedies. Can you safely work with a 360 degree range environment? Of course, and many professional organizations have to do this work at times. With that said, can your organization or group accept "training accident" casualties? We cannot. It is why we do not put students or instructors down range. I have no doubt that Wayne, Myself, and a large number of our students could duplicate the shooting performance exhibited in the video. Yet....what gain is there to put people in a place where they are subject to human error if there is no need to?

I have supervised sniper initiated entries, sniper initiated bus and vehicle assaults and shoot house work. We did it rarely because it is dangerous, yet...we did it because I had people tasked with those exact missions and needed to be able to work through those problems. Anytime you can mitigate risk by using a piece of cardboard or clay or other simulated human is much better than using a real human when live ammunition is being used. Keeping in mind that the original organization involved has instructors on staff that have shot fellow instructors, had off range negligent discharges in front of students, etc..I am fine with them doing whatever they want as it seems they are much more capable than I am of dealing with the issues that come when things go bad. Choices have consequences, just make sure you can accept the consequences of those choices.

[TGS]

I am just glad there is a place for the students we don't want. I am glad the market is so good that risk mitigation is unnecessary for some groups, and more power to them. The nice thing about being mentored in life by guys like Scott Reitz and Pat Rogers is that when you have done a bunch of this stuff for real, and seen how bad things can go in the real world that you do whatever you can to not have training tragedies. Can you safely work with a 360 degree range environment? Of course, and many professional organizations have to do this work at times. With that said, can your organization or group accept "training accident" casualties? We cannot. It is why we do not put students or instructors down range. I have no doubt that Wayne, Myself, and a large number of our students could duplicate the shooting performance exhibited in the video. Yet....what gain is there to put people in a place where they are subject to human error if there is no need to?

I have supervised sniper initiated entries, sniper initiated bus and vehicle assaults and shoot house work. We did it rarely because it is dangerous, yet...we did it because I had people tasked with those exact missions and needed to be able to work through those problems. Anytime you can mitigate risk by using a piece of cardboard or clay or other simulated human is much better than using a real human when live ammunition is being used. Keeping in mind that the original organization involved has instructors on staff that have shot fellow instructors, had off range negligent discharges in front of students, etc..I am fine with them doing whatever they want as it seems they are much more capable than I am of dealing with the issues that come when things go bad. Choices have consequences, just make sure you can accept the consequences of those choices.

You and SLG clearly just lack the training pedigree of VSO, and you suck.

Geez, Darryl. You can't buy performance.

(All: Watch the entirety of the 2nd video if this doesn't automatically register as sarcasm)

[jetfire]

I remember when these first started their channel and it was basically just trolling videos; but then someone took them seriously and they realized that a pivot into semi-serious "tactical testing" would probably be worth more money than being a slightly smarter Cokeman.

[Peally]

VSO is an offshoot of the Yeager world, they've always been full-retard.

[Dagga Boy]

You and SLG clearly just lack the training pedigree of VSO, and you suck.

Geez, Darryl. You can't buy performance.

(All: Watch the entirety of the 2nd video if this doesn't automatically register as sarcasm)

I got it....for a change;). What is really funny is we tell students that you can't buy performance. Know what else you can't buy....experience. The experience you tend to learn the most from is when stuff goes wrong. When you see the results over decades of things going wrong on the range during training or in the field during live encounters, you begin to take very seriously what happens when human error mixes with live ammunition. If you are the one bearing the responsibility for what happens on that range, things that get folks hurt are your responsibility and it is a heavy one. Things happen very fast and you cannot always stop them, which is why trying to minimize unnecessary risk is so critical.

We have an epidemic in this country of instructors shooting students. Instructors need to realize they are generally the most dangerous person on that range due to being the ones most likely to let complacency take over and work hard to mitigate it.

[jetfire]

There's money in them thar views.

I need to put more boobs on youtube.

[SLG]

I need to put more boobs on youtube.

Do you have spares? More than 2?

My testing staff has over 20 minute of real world internet porn experience. We can replicate almost any position imaginable. Though there are a lot of experts out there, we're not them. We just like boobs.

[jetfire]

Do you have spares? More than 2?

My testing staff has over 20 minute of real world internet porn experience. We can replicate almost any position imaginable. Though there are a lot of experts out there, we're not them. We just like boobs.

I think we can arrange for this.

[Eastex]

Surely Youboob.com has already been bought up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Failure2Stop]

Know what else you can't buy....experience.

Truth-bomb.

[Redhat]

Aside from the obvious safety fail, I have never heard a satisfactory answer as to why exercises like the one in the first video are even conducted?

[Hambo]

It's all in fun until your buddy zings one though your chest cavity.

[hiro]

Aside from the obvious safety fail, I have never heard a satisfactory answer as to why exercises like the one in the first video are even conducted?

I dunno but thinking about it for less than 2 seconds I came up with "because they have no clue what they are doing"

[Hambo]

when human error mixes with live ammunition.

This is a really great line for safety briefings, but in my twisted imagination I can see it as true advertising for some of these trainers:

Badass Shooting Inc, where human error mixes with live ammunition.

[UNK]

http://vsomedia.org/whats-new/ check out the dudes left thumb on the wheel gun.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ouch! I guess I'm lucky that the local training environment is good. On the other hand, I don't know the start up 'talent' around here.

[Dagga Boy]

This is a really great line for safety briefings, but in my twisted imagination I can see it as true advertising for some of these trainers:

Badass Shooting Inc, where human error mixes with live ammunition.

There is a vast audience out there to go to classes that are basically tactical fantasy band camp. I have had students who came from these programs and many simply don't know what they don't know and actually think they are getting super high speed training. It is a giant myth perpetuated by Hollywood and the media. I have been blessed enough to be on training ranges with the best hostage rescue, special operations and real first line military and law enforcement personnel....and it is funny that these folks tend to have the most unforgiving standards when it comes to safety. I guess that whole experience thing has taught them that Murphy is unforgiving and uncaring about your "specialness" and training deaths and injuries are a real thing and have real consequences.

[Redhat]

Minus the guy in the wheelchair and him lagging behind (and then the awkward and ill advised assist), isn't it just a simple shooting on the move drill?

Yeah...that's my question. Why even introduce this "technique"? What are they learning that would be beneficial?

[ReverendMeat]

Presumably how to shoot while moving.

[JSGlock34]

Know what else you can't buy....experience.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UinoNx2Tpr4

[Redhat]

Shooting while moving is pretty different than shooting while standing still and flat footed. With the exception of the state mandated CCW class and some basic NRA classes, every course I've attended has had a shooting on the move component.

I know and I've done and taught it too. But, I'm not convinced of it's usefulness, especially when part of a short class that will not bring the students up to a level where it could be useful. I also don't see value in having beginner level or even intermediate level students learn just enough about it to be misguided and impressed but not very capable. I just don't see teaching someone to poke along at a snails pace while shooting and never progressing beyond that level. What have they really learned?

And FWIW, if I were running that line the instructor ratio would be 1:1.

[Lon]

I know and I've done and taught it too. But, I'm not convinced of it's usefulness, especially when part of a short class that will not bring the students up to a level where it could be useful. I also don't see value in having beginner level or even intermediate level students learn just enough about it to be misguided and impressed but not very capable. I just don't see the value in teaching someone to poke along at a snails pace while shooting and never progressing beyond that level. What have they really learned?

And FWIW, if I were running that line the instructor ratio would be 1:1.

Then where else are they going to learn the proper technique? What's the point of going to most training classes? To learn a basic technique to build on. Few people come out of basic pistol classes having "mastered" a technique. The mastery comes from properly practicing the basic skills you were introduced in the class over a longer period of time. You gotta crawl before you walk.

I'd expect to learn SOM in a 2 day basic class. Be kinda pissed if it wasn't covered.

Edit: But I wouldn't teach it like that. I do 1:1 or 1:2. Mostly 1:1.

[Hambo]

You gotta crawl before you walk.

I'd expect to learn SOM in a 2 day basic class. Be kinda pissed if it wasn't covered.


In a basic class? No fucking way would I run shoot on the move drills. Not so much because I couldn't do it in a safe manner, but because at that level they don't need it. I would expect part of the students to have never drawn a loaded gun from holster in such a class. Crawling before they can walk would be doing that, failure drills, multiple targets, etc. Why waste the limited time you have on that when you can run them through more draws and shooting drills?

[Lon]

You can do plenty of the other "basic" stuff on day 1 and beginning of day 2. I would cover SOM towards the end of day 2.

I guess I should make sure we are on the same page when it comes to the definition of "basic" class. I am not referring to an NRA basic pistol type class, like "this is a barrel, frame and action" type class.

[BaiHu]

http://vsomedia.org/whats-new/ check out the dudes left thumb on the wheel gun.
Screams operator or is it screaming operator. Damn, I need to take one of these classes to sort this out. /sarcasm

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

You can do plenty of the other "basic" stuff on day 1 and beginning of day 2. I would cover SOM towards the end of day 2.

I guess I should make sure we are on the same page when it comes to the definition of "basic" class. I am not referring to an NRA basic pistol type class, like "this is a barrel, frame and action" type class.

I'm with you on the definition, but a basic two day course gets people who have done nothing but square range, no draws allowed, shooting. There isn't much training between "this is a bullet" beginner courses and something like Tom Givens' Combat Handgun. I took Tom's class earlier this year and half the students could draw and chew gum at the same time and half were scary new. Tom got them to draw from concealment, get off the X, and rounds on target, but that was as far as they could go in 16 hours.

[mmc45414]

There are guys that I know that I would trust to shoot past me, after thirty years of shooting together. I would also trust them to know if it was appropriate, like you know, if somebody was actually shooting at us. But this was obviously a basic class, being delivered to some obviously less experienced shooters that were put in an unsafe situation unnecessarily. The poor guy in the wheelchair was bullied into doing something he knew was wrong, just because the snake eater operator he paid to train him didn't want him to puss out. A competent trainer may have acknowledged that one of the class participants was confined to a wheelchair and required an alternative block of instruction. This is politically correct mainstreaming, only with live ammo!

When an accident happens it blows back on us all, because the people that write for the NYT and USA Today don't know the four rules and don't care about the four rules and would/will only write a(nother) story about how untrained gun nuts obviously shouldn't be allowed to be carrying a gun in public because they will obviously shoot your whole family under stress, cause after all, they even shoot each other in training classes.