Any Techniques for Locking Wrists and Elbows?

[randyflycaster]

I'm still struggling keeping the muzzle from jumping up too much during recoil. I guess I'm have trouble locking my wrists and elbows. Are there any techniques that can help me lock them?

Happy holidays.

Thanks,
Randy

[SLG]

I'm still struggling keeping the muzzle from jumping up too much during recoil. I guess I'm have trouble locking my wrists and elbows. Are there any techniques that can help me lock them?

Happy holidays.

Thanks,
Randy

I wouldn't do that...

Locking elbows is definitely undesirable. The wrist is less important and can be argued about. Put a video up of you shooting a bill drill from the side and I'm sure we can fix you up.

[randyflycaster]

In this video Jerry Miculek says that he locks his wrists but doesn't say how he does it. He also says he locks his wrists over center. I'm not sure what he means by that.

Also, I'm a bit surprised that he doesn't seem to extend his arms out as far as he can; so his shoulders are not rolled forward and seem very relaxed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s

Randy

[SLG]

In this video Jerry Miculek says that he locks his wrists but doesn't say how he does it. He also says he locks his wrists over center. I'm not sure what he means by that.

Also, I'm a bit surprised that he doesn't seem to extend his arms out as far as he can; so his shoulders are not rolled forward and seem very relaxed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s

Randy

Point your arm straight out in front with you fingers forward and your thumb up, like an open handed hitchhiker. The roll your thumb forward at the wrist until you cant go any further. that's what he means.

Bent arms are generally superior, which is why he doesn't extend them all the way. Gentler on your elbow joints and it allows you to put bigger muscles into play.

[Luke]

The simplest way I've found to tell people is to have them bend over pretty far and let their hands dangle FREELY, absolutely relaxed, the natural bend of your elbows is where you want to be. This may not be your final resting place as far as arm position go, but it will get you started.

[spinmove_]

"Nose over your toes"

After that, press out like you're squeezing a lemon between the base of your palms just past the wrists. If you maintain that pressure, you'll see that you'll naturally stop pressing out with your elbows still bent.

As for your wrists, "locking" them is basically is establishing a static hold with your wrists. Usually having your wrists bent forward helps maintain that "lock".


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[Leroy]

You have to grip the gun really hard while maintaining enough dexterity to work the trigger correctly. Gripping the gun hard is how you manage recoil. I have never seen any benefit from locking elbows, locking wrists tends to be subjective and some pistols don't lend themselves to it as well as others. Arm bend and hand locations are all dependent on many variables and varies person to person. The only absolute that I know of is gripping the shit out of the gun and the best way to practice it is to grip the shit out of the gun and work the trigger.

[David S.]

Techniques vary, but locking elbows is a bad long term strategy (body wear and tear) and is probably counter productive.

Tom Givens is running Combative Pistol next July in Kalispell. I'd highly recommend making that happen.

[Rex G]

I have never locked my elbows! Well, at least not since the first few experimental rounds; my elbows hyper-extend, so locking my elbows is strenuous, clumsy, and induces trembling. I try to have just the slightest bend in my elbows, while shooting from eye level.

I do not understand the mechanics of a "locked" wrist. One should not limp-wrist, when shooting, but what does it mean to "lock" a wrist? A straight wrist, during recoil, is a natural component of a firm grip, as I see it.

[txdpd]

I'm still struggling keeping the muzzle from jumping up too much during recoil. I guess I'm have trouble locking my wrists and elbows. Are there any techniques that can help me lock them?

Happy holidays.

Thanks,
Randy

You can't out muscle recoil. Locking your elbows will make recoil worse, your arms can't absorb recoil if your elbows are locked. If you replaced the springs in your car's suspension with solid steel blocks every little bump is getting sent into your body.

Shooting is not all that much different than fly casting. It's technique and timing that makes you efficient. Strength is certainly an important component. It doesn't matter how strong you are, if you start whipping a fly rod as hard as you can, not much is going to happen. If you have technique down, a feel for the rod and your timing down, you can use the energy built up in the rod on the back cast to do the work for you. Tracking your sights is a more important aspect of recoil management than trying to out muscle recoil.

https://pistol-training.com/archives/88

If you grip the pistol tightly you will naturally straighten (flexion and extension) and "lock" your wrist.

[randyflycaster]

Folks,
Thanks so much for all your help. I really appreciate it.
Randyt

[RJ]

Tom Givens is running Combative Pistol next July in Kalispell. I'd highly recommend making that happen.

Still on my radar.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Watch this vid by Vogel. It gives a pretty great overview of all the bases that need covering.


https://youtu.be/45QhpvY9LZc?t=10s

The biggest thing I got from Vogel is the way he tensions his arms; putting constant side-in pressure from both arms into the gun, seriously activating the forearms in addition to using the natural sping effect of your elbows in recoil. This had a major impact on my ability to place accurate follow-up shots once I got a good handle on it.

[jiminycricket]

Originally, I tried reinforcing that side pressure with the palms in such a way that could be liken to the way one pries apart an object or even twists a wet towel. This did indeed apply side pressure on the grip, but it was evenly distributed from the tang to the heel of the grip.
Later I got the suggestion from this forum to rotate my elbows outward.
Doing so, for me, gives more side pressure in the palms that is concentrated higher just under the beaver tail giving me even better recoil control. I find that I am also less likely to milk the grip or pull my shots off to the side.
I don't think I'll ever be able to grip a pistol like Vogel in regards to rotating my support hand as sharply forward as he is capable of. When I do so, I gain less contact with the grip/frame of the pistol with my support hand. Plus, that forced angle tends to pinch something in my wrist.

[jiminycricket]

Forgive me, but I found this funny. Maybe I'm just not getting enough sleep.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ydOYwS8UZ2c

[JHC]

I wouldn't do that...

Locking elbows is definitely undesirable. The wrist is less important and can be argued about. Put a video up of you shooting a bill drill from the side and I'm sure we can fix you up.

Randy, you really want to do this. It will be very good.

[spinmove_]

Originally, I tried reinforcing that side pressure with the palms in such a way that could be liken to the way one pries apart an object or even twists a wet towel. This did indeed apply side pressure on the grip, but it was evenly distributed from the tang to the heel of the grip.
Later I got the suggestion from this forum to rotate my elbows outward.
Doing so, for me, gives more side pressure in the palms that is concentrated higher just under the beaver tail giving me even better recoil control. I find that I am also less likely to milk the grip or pull my shots off to the side.
I don't think I'll ever be able to grip a pistol like Vogel in regards to rotating my support hand as sharply forward as he is capable of. When I do so, I gain less contact with the grip/frame of the pistol with my support hand. Plus, that forced angle tends to pinch something in my wrist.

Part of the reason why Robert is able to do that so well is because he's able to use his support hand index finger to wrap around the trigger guard and anchor his hand to the frame really well. Try as I might, I was blessed with short fingers and thus I'm not able to achieve the same lock.

I also find that if I roll my elbows out too far I lose too much contact on lower portions of the grip which cause slippage and I'm not able to manage Recoil properly. I find the Roger's method of "pliable grip" and "locked wrists" a more efficient and effective technique, personally.


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[randyflycaster]

Vogel video is very good, though I'm not sure what he means by not grabbing the gun like a monkey and then instead pinching ...
Randy

[spinmove_]

Vogel video is very good, though I'm not sure what he means by not grabbing the gun like a monkey and then instead pinching ...
Randy

The pinching is where you flag the strong hand thumb in order to get your grip as high up on the tang as high as possible.


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[jiminycricket]

"I find the Roger's method of "pliable grip" and "locked wrists" a more efficient and effective technique, personally."

Hey spinmove, I'm interested in hearing the details about that if you have the time. For some reason I'm having a hard time getting it from a Google search.

[spinmove_]

"I find the Roger's method of "pliable grip" and "locked wrists" a more efficient and effective technique, personally."

Hey spinmove, I'm interested in hearing the details about that if you have the time. For some reason I'm having a hard time getting it from a Google search.

As far as "pliable hands" go, follow the link and I'll let Ron Avery explain it.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17788-Ron-Avery-quot-Pliable-Hand-quot-Grip&highlight=Pliable+hands

As far as "locked wrists", it's kind of a bad term as it doesn't really tell you anything useful. A more accurate term would be "static orientation of wrists". Basically the concept is that you keep your wrists in as static a position as possible through the gun's operation.

Take for example doing a bicep curl. When you grab the weight to curl it, do you let your wrist flop about with the weight grasped in your hand as you perform the curl with your bicep? No. You keep your wrist in a static formation to better control and handle that weight. It's the same concept with a gun recoiling. Except that your arms are supposed to be stationary and the gun is the one doing the moving. There's no magical "locking point" or "feeling of a lock" in your wrists, just a static hold on those joints. Having your wrists bent more forward or away from you helps in keeping those wrists "locked". Extend them too far and it can get fatiguing.


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[randyflycaster]

The Avery technique is only making things more confusing. Almost everyone, except Alfred League, tells me I should crush the gun with my support hand. How does on apply pliable pressure except by not gripping the gun so hard? I'm guessing that he means exerting side-to-side pressure with the meaty parts of the palms that are below the base of the thumbs. That way I can still relax my hand. Can I relax my hand if I exert front to back pressure with my strong hand?

Randy

[spinmove_]

The Avery technique is only making things more confusing. Almost everyone, except Alfred League, tells me I should crush the gun with my support hand. How does on apply pliable pressure except by not gripping the gun so hard?

Randy

"Hard" is a rather subjective term. How do you define "hard"? Is it different than "firm"? If it is, how different is it?

I think you should watch both videos again and pay attention to the parts where he makes the distinction between "gripping hard enough to be too rigid" and "gripping hard enough to hold on, but not so much that you're losing contact with the pistol".

Either way, you can't grip too loosely, but you can't squeeze and white knuckle it either as that is ultimately detrimental, or so I've found. When I grip the pistol, it's pretty damn firm. When I shake someone's hand, it usually gets their attention with how hard my typical grip is.

I think grip PRESSURE, while important and most definitely necessary, is a little overblown and not nearly as important as grip TECHNIQUE. You can grip the snot out of it, but if you're not doing it right it's not going to have the desired effect and your trigger control will suffer.

Work smarter, not harder.


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[JHC]

The Avery technique is only making things more confusing. Almost everyone, except Alfred League, tells me I should crush the gun with my support hand. How does on apply pliable pressure except by not gripping the gun so hard? I'm guessing that he means exerting side-to-side pressure with the meaty parts of the palms that are below the base of the thumbs. That way I can still relax my hand. Can I relax my hand if I exert front to back pressure with my strong hand?

Randy

It did nada for me either.

[Paul Sharp]

The approach I teach to recoil management is based on a coaching model and experiential learning. The problem with learning recoil management with live fire is recoil happens to fast for us to process what we are doing right/wrong. On this you tube channel is most of the exercises I use to coach folks; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoQMJtGGllzY8az77X-cuCA The first 14 videos are from the two sessions I coached at RangeMaster Tactical Conference.

And there are five videos on Mark Luell's channel; https://youtu.be/3ZJ_dxMoKL4

Again, this is the approach I use. It might not work for everyone but a lot of folks dig it. Hopefully it will help the OP develop some more recoil control and avoid some of the mistakes I made. There are also clips floating around social media from other conferences and classes I've taught. I always encourage folks to video the exercises if they find them valuable so they can use the video as a reference later and so they can coach others if they'd like to use the exercises for that purpose.

[RJ]

^^^ I was standing over to the right during this session at Tac Con in Memphis.

This lesson in recoil control by Paul really made a big impression on me.

[11B10]

Forgive me, but I found this funny. Maybe I'm just not getting enough sleep.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ydOYwS8UZ2c



Jiminy, that's hysterical. Are those two stoned in ALL their videos?

[JTPHD]

Randy,
I've spent a lot of time in the past trying to consciously maintain a locked wrist while shooting. Like some others have said, the ability to crush grip the gun with both hands can have huge benefits in recoil management and sight tracking. Ben Stoeger mentions in his Practical Pistol Foundations video that he grips the gun so hard with his support hand that he sometimes breaks the skin of his strong hand.

I've also confirmed after testing different grip tension and hand placement that my sights move the least when I grip the gun as physically hard as possible- and my wrists naturally stay tense! "Speed mode" dryfire is also a great diagnostic tool to test and validate new techniques.

[randyflycaster]

Regular Guy,
Are you gripping hard with both hands? And with your shooting hand are you gripping front to back or side to side?
One issue I have with trying to crush the gun is that it causes fatigue, and I find that, after shooting a number of rounds, the fatigue affects my shooting.
Thanks,
Randy

[Luke]

The stronger your physical grip is the less force you need to hold the gun really tight.


Like if I can squeeze 300lbs or force my "firm" hold will be more than the crush hold of a man that is squeezing 175lbs maxed out.

Just keep gripping as hard as you can without shaking that still allows you to pull the trigger without disturbing the sights. Your strength will increase as you practice. Don't get hung up in overthinking this.

[Peally]

I hold the gun tight and pull the trigger. Seriously, grip is pretty much that simple, and yet it probably gets the most threads out of all the fundamentals. I'm a skinny 160 pound guy with sissy IT hands and a 9mm is no biggie to me.

I have no idea what the hell locking a wrist or arm means, but I'm not a robot and thus can't do it.

[jiminycricket]

Jiminy, that's hysterical. Are those two stoned in ALL their videos?

Ha I wouldn't know. I'm worried if I watch their other videos I might be disappointed lol.

[JTPHD]

Regular Guy,
Are you gripping hard with both hands? And with your shooting hand are you gripping front to back or side to side?
One issue I have with trying to crush the gun is that it causes fatigue, and I find that, after shooting a number of rounds, the fatigue affects my shooting.
Thanks,
Randy

Randy, I do pretty much what Luke described. The Captains of Crush grippers 3x / week have really helped out with overall grip strength. I've personally learned the most about grip in dryfire while moving the trigger at speed. I think Stoeger also said he "burns in" the technique in dryfire and makes small adjustments in live fire.