Sig P320 "failed FBI test miserably"

[Kirk]

Hi,

was on social media this AM and saw a screenshot from Larry Vickers stating that the Sig P320 failed the FBI test miserably. Anyone have any info or details on this? Anyone have any problems out of their 320s? I admittedly am new to the gun. I have been a DA/SA fan boy since I started shooting/carrying/competing and only picked up some 320s after I was challenged by my friend to try out SFAs in 2017. I only have 1,500 rounds through mine in the last 4 weeks, but it's been flawless (1,500 rounds is obviously nothing).

Just wanted to ask what I needed to watch for, what known problems the guns have, and what spare parts.to stock up on. I'll be maintaining 1,500 rounds until March when I'll probably start hitting 4-6k a month through the gun. Just figured I'd ask the gentlemen who know the platform much better than me.

Thanks!

[Gray222]

I cannot say where I heard this from, nor would I if asked, but it turns out the gun had accuracy and reliability problems as submitted to the test, as compared to other pistols which were submitted.

[Kirk]

I cannot say where I heard this from, nor would I if asked, but it turns out the gun had accuracy and reliability problems as submitted to the test, as compared to other pistols which were submitted.


Wow, that's surprising. All of mine shoot 2" at 25. Not that 2" at 25 is crazy or anything, most modern pistols can do that. More interested in the reliability reports though. I wonder if it was the specific test guns or if it is a problem as a whole? I've already been hit in the face with brass 3 times with my carry 320, maybe that was a problem?

[11B10]

Wow, that's surprising. All of mine shoot 2" at 25. Not that 2" at 25 is crazy or anything, most modern pistols can do that. More interested in the reliability reports though. I wonder if it was the specific test guns or if it is a problem as a whole? I've already been hit in the face with brass 3 times with my carry 320, maybe that was a problem?



I always hesitate a bit when I see a thread about the P320 because I don't have near the round count others do here. But, when I read about the bad ones, I feel compelled to add my two cents, and here it is: although I wish it were thousands and thousands more, my round count on my 320 compact is right around 1,000. I've had NO malfunctions of any kind.

[orionz06]

I've heard accuracy but also accuracy after a few thousand rounds. I've not shot mine for more than a few mags but sights I hate gave me a 4" five shot group from my very first 5 shots outta the gun at 25. Groups were tighter later as I got used to it. It's certainly not an M&P.


I've read elsewhere if high round count 320 users questioning the accuracy comments as well.


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[gkieser92]

I have no dog in the fight but I always wondered about this. Isn't the 320 simply a striker-fired P250? It seemed like the 250 was widely panned and didn't win any contracts. Wouldn't the 320 inherit the shortcomings of the 250, save for anything directly related to the trigger and hammer mechanisms?

[HCM]

I have no dog in the fight but I always wondered about this. Isn't the 320 simply a striker-fired P250? It seemed like the 250 was widely panned and didn't win any contracts. Wouldn't the 320 inherit the shortcomings of the 250, save for anything directly related to the trigger and hammer mechanisms?

The first generation P250 had issues. They were fixed but by the time the second generation P250 came out, the damage was done. Plus it was a long pull DAO trigger released after the popularity of standard DAO guns had waned. By that time most agencies were going with striker fired guns or short pull DAO's like the DAK or LEM.

Re: the P320

1) my understanding is the gun submitted to the FBI was a modified P320. Possible this played a part?

2) I've heard reports from other agency testing of P320's losing accuracy at higher round counts. No hard info to back that up.

[MGW]

I've been told that I'm full of it but my dad and I purchased a 320 FS last year that had issues. Accuracy out of the box was terrible and we tried multiple loads. A new springer guide rod and a lighter recoil spring improved the accuracy a lot. Improving accuracy with a lighter recoil spring seems backwards to me but that's what happened.

We also had 4 cases rupture at the base. These were reloads so the blame was always placed on the cases but I've never had a round rupture before or after. I don't know if it's still there but Bruce Grey had a video of a case rupturing in a 320 on Facebook. IIRC his grand daughter was shooting the pistol but it may have just been a younger girl that was an acquaintance. The ammo was blamed. Occasionally if you read other forums you'll read of similar case failures.

There are also reports of extractor issues after 3-4 k rounds. Sounds like they are easily fixed but it could definitely work against the pistol during something like the FBI test.

I know there are 320s out there that have fired a lot of rounds with no issues. It's very possible that we bought a bad one or that we really had a few bad cases that just happened to all show up while testing the 320. I also know in the internet world we live in things often get blown out of proportion. In my opinion though I believe the pistol needs more time and testing in the field to be fully vetted. And by testing I mean out of the box pistols not tuned and fitted by an outside gunsmith.

[GJM]

A major advantage of the Glock, is decades of use under a wide range of conditions. Factory testing is important, but some issues only materialize over time. It is the reason many savvy pilots don't want to operate the first 100 serial numbers of a new helicopter or 50 serial numbers of a new fixed wing. Early adopters often get the arrows.

The 320 and VP9 are still relatively new pistols in the overall scheme of things.

[JSGlock34]

The 320 and VP9 are still relatively new pistols in the overall scheme of things.

I'm curious to see if the 320 and VP9 are among the downselects for the XM17.

[modrecoil]

I only put 500 rounds through mine but it's been completely reliable and extremely accurate with all factory parts. More accurate than most of my handguns, including long-barreled competition guns with expensive triggers.

[A.G.]

I've been told that I'm full of it but my dad and I purchased a 320 FS last year that had issues. Accuracy out of the box was terrible and we tried multiple loads. A new springer guide rod and a lighter recoil spring improved the accuracy a lot. Improving accuracy with a lighter recoil spring seems backwards to me but that's what happened.

We also had 4 cases rupture at the base. These were reloads so the blame was always placed on the cases but I've never had a round rupture before or after. I don't know if it's still there but Bruce Grey had a video of a case rupturing in a 320 on Facebook. IIRC his grand daughter was shooting the pistol but it may have just been a younger girl that was an acquaintance. The ammo was blamed. Occasionally if you read other forums you'll read of similar case failures.

There are also reports of extractor issues after 3-4 k rounds. Sounds like they are easily fixed but it could definitely work against the pistol during something like the FBI test.

I know there are 320s out there that have fired a lot of rounds with no issues. It's very possible that we bought a bad one or that we really had a few bad cases that just happened to all show up while testing the 320. I also know in the internet world we live in things often get blown out of proportion. In my opinion though I believe the pistol needs more time and testing in the field to be fully vetted. And by testing I mean out of the box pistols not tuned and fitted by an outside gunsmith.
I also had a case failure on my P320. It blew the extractor out of the slide. I was shooting my reloads but in the 30K or so rounds of my reloads I have through a Beretta 92 and a CZ I have not had anything like that happen.

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[Hambo]

I cannot say where I heard this from, nor would I if asked, but it turns out the gun had accuracy and reliability problems as submitted to the test, as compared to other pistols which were submitted.

Did the slides stay on when drawn from holster?

[entropy]

Interesting on the case failures. My son has a P250 that has suffered the same exact thing twice. Both times it was off to Sig and returned. One was factory, once was handloads. I spoke to them (Sig) extensively over the phone the second time before we sent it in. It was almost like an OOB issue. It was returned as "repaired" and hasnt suffered it again since.

[Sammy1]

What would the cause of the case rupture be, firing out of battery or chamber support?

[Clobbersaurus]

I'd like to hear more about the failures.

I find it interesting that this thread has brought out members with accuracy and case rupturing issues.

[A.G.]

I'd like to hear more about the failures.

I find it interesting that this thread has brought out members with accuracy and case rupturing issues.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161225/acef4a1e73d7cf3d5c57155f12e1b2cd.jpg

This is a picture of my ruptured case.

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[Clobbersaurus]

Yikes! Was there any damage to the gun?

[A.G.]

Yikes! Was there any damage to the gun?
It completely ejected the extractor from the slide. Otherwise no damage. I ordered a replacement extractor and installed it with no issues.

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[Gray222]

Did the slides stay on when drawn from holster?

The things I listed were the only issues I heard.

[El Cid]

The things I listed were the only issues I heard.

I suspect Hambo was being snarky about the Glock 17M issue at IMPD. As I understand it the 19M and 17M tested at Quantico did not have that problem.

[Studentofthegun]

Speaking of which, its getting closer to Shot 2017. Any more news on that?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, just hadn't seen anything about it for a while.

[Kirk]

This is an informative thread for me. I agree with GJM, it seems that the primary advantage of Glock is the years of manufacturing and duty experience. I checked out Enos' forum and the 320 is obviously very highly regarded there, and there's a similar thread to this one. A lot of people reporting 10,000-15,000 rounds through theirs with no problem, ALTHOUGH I'm sure the FBI has a much higher round count in their testing im sure. I'm curious if Sig will improve things based on their feedback like Glock, or ignore it and say "fuck you" to actual shooters like S&W with their M&P. The accuracy and trigger I have right now out of mine is excellent to me.

[Lomshek]

This is an informative thread for me. I agree with GJM, it seems that the primary advantage of Glock is the years of manufacturing and duty experience. I checked out Enos' forum and the 320 is obviously very highly regarded there, and there's a similar thread to this one. A lot of people reporting 10,000-15,000 rounds through theirs with no problem, ALTHOUGH I'm sure the FBI has a much higher round count in their testing im sure. I'm curious if Sig will improve things based on their feedback like Glock, or ignore it and say "fuck you" to actual shooters like S&W with their M&P. The accuracy and trigger I have right now out of mine is excellent to me.

Which is hilarious when one realizes that none of these problems are new to the gun world. How to make an accurate handgun or a pistol that reliably extracts and ejects or doesn't wear itself out or springs that last more than 3000 rounds isn't exactly an unknown science.

Of course to make a gun that works as it should would require someone beside a bean counter to decide how a gun is built and God forbid maybe even someone who really understands guns & shooting be in design and R&D.

[Lomshek]

Wow, that's surprising. All of mine shoot 2" at 25.

Not that 2" at 25 is crazy or anything, most modern pistols can do that.

Really?

[BlueDog2009]

This is an informative thread for me. I agree with GJM, it seems that the primary advantage of Glock is the years of manufacturing and duty experience. I checked out Enos' forum and the 320 is obviously very highly regarded there, and there's a similar thread to this one. A lot of people reporting 10,000-15,000 rounds through theirs with no problem, ALTHOUGH I'm sure the FBI has a much higher round count in their testing im sure. I'm curious if Sig will improve things based on their feedback like Glock, or ignore it and say "fuck you" to actual shooters like S&W with their M&P. The accuracy and trigger I have right now out of mine is excellent to me.

I don't really see how Glock does anything with feedback. It took them years to recognize the issue of running weapon lights on their .40 guns. And I know a lot of Indiana PDs that basically got an F you when it came to troubleshooting their department weapons. Indiana State Police was a big one when they took delivery of their .40s. And then there was the debacle of them delivering new guns to IMPD that would field strip themselves in the holster has quite of few officers wondering if they will function as necessary.

All guns have problems... Glock is no exception. I'll hold my judgement until I actually see their test results.

[LockedBreech]

While this discussion makes me a bit leery about my VP9 purchase (I bought after it had been out for about a year, so early-ish adopter, before they standardized the 9/40 recoil springs), I trust HK to do pretty exhaustive vetting before product release, whereas Sig has some history of rushing product out. I have considered moving my "don't buy" window from 2 years to 3 lately, just to play it extra safe while the ghosts in the machine get figured out the only way they really can, by a lot of shooters hitting high round counts.

[JSGlock34]

SIG appears to rely on the public for beta-testing their designs lately. The MPX had a number of issues and SIG was forced to release a 'GEN2' in short order. The MCX is currently under a recall. The P250 had enough problems that the Dutch police withdrew the pistol from service and cancelled their order. The P320 has had numerous tweaks and changes while in use. There are some reports of accuracy degradation in high round count pistols.


Speaking of the P320, Steve Fischer mentioned during a recent P&S Modcast (about the 5 minute mark below) that some high round count 320s have exhibited accuracy degradation. I wonder if this is something that could have affected the P320 during the FBI testing, especially considering Phase V?

PHASE V - Part A

Each Offeror will have two pistols per class evaluated during this phase. This test will stop when each pistol has reached a total of 20,000 rounds (including rounds fired in all previous phases)...At the conclusion of Phase V, Part A each pistol will repeat PHASE II, Part B, 5-Accuracy Assessment and PHASE II, Part B, 9-Tactical Light Assessment (FBI Provided Light) in order to document any degradation in performance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3CtbAuFyQg

I'm not about to claim that Glock is better. The GEN4 rollout was a debacle. But I'm not sure I consider the failure of a small number of preproduction G17Ms in a nonpublic initial issue of a brand new model that the manufacturer hasn't even announced to be the same thing as rolling out a problematic design to the public.

In any case, there is a price for staying on the 'bleeding edge' of technology.

[LittleLebowski]

Does that look like lack of chamber support on the ruptured cases?

[Kirk]

Really?

Most of my Glocks do 2.5" roughly and it seems my DA/SAs (Sig, Beretta, HK, Grandpower) seem to be right in the 2" range. My Canik TP9SF Elite does about 3" at 25.m, but it's a little more ammo sensitive. Haven't played around much with M&Ps, Rugers, etc though.

[Polecat]

Have had 3 P320's. Two sucked. One was good. I don''t think it deserves all the accolades it gets though. The trigger is hardly that good, in fact I think a bit cheesy. It's as if there is a "reset" noise built into the gun for just that purpose-makes it seem more than it is in my humble opinion.

They would have been better off taking the original P250 as designed with DA/SA and shorter 3mm reset in only 9mm, redo the sights so it is standard SIG dovetails, update the whole thing just a bit.

I can't wait to see what others have broght to the table. The color on the CZ is fantastic. I am really interested in the new FN striker hinted at- any updates?

Dave

[JSGlock34]

I am really interested in the new FN striker hinted at- any updates?

There were a few details mentioned in a September Primary & Secondary Modcast by Roland (of Roland Special fame) about the FN entrant.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pSOmLdCFAw

[jetfire]

I have no dog in the fight but I always wondered about this. Isn't the 320 simply a striker-fired P250? It seemed like the 250 was widely panned and didn't win any contracts. Wouldn't the 320 inherit the shortcomings of the 250, save for anything directly related to the trigger and hammer mechanisms?

Off the main topic, I always liked the P250. I ran about 5k through a full size gun, even shooting Bianchi Cup with it. The 250 in my experience was accurate and reliable, and as a revolver guy I liked he DAO trigger.

The gun really only had two major problems: couldn't change the rear sight for something better, and it was a DAO gun when DAO guns weren't cool anymore.


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[LockedBreech]

Off the main topic, I always liked the P250. I ran about 5k through a full size gun, even shooting Bianchi Cup with it. The 250 in my experience was accurate and reliable, and as a revolver guy I liked he DAO trigger.

The gun really only had two major problems: couldn't change the rear sight for something better, and it was a DAO gun when DAO guns weren't cool anymore.


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I constantly come close to picking up a 250 Compact because you can get them in 9 for like $350 and I was under the impression the bugs were worked out. This new news on the 320 has me more hesitant.


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[Clusterfrack]

Sample size of 8 p320s between my 4 and 4 more owned by friendse. 2 needed an updated extractor. All have been reliable and very accurate. Round cunts of 10-20k haven't had any effect on accuracy.

[DHart]

My round counts are still pretty low, but with P320 40 Full Size, 40 Carry size, 40 Compact size, and a Full size and Compact 9mm, so far nothing but perfect performance and superb accuracy from them all. Mine have all be produced within the last 6 months. No worries here, for now.

[jetfire]

I constantly come close to picking up a 250 Compact because you can get them in 9 for like $350 and I was under the impression the bugs were worked out. This new news on the 320 has me more hesitant.


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For that money though you might as well risk it! Because if it's good you have a solid AIWB option for under 4 bills.


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[KCBRUIN]

I bought a p320 compact wanting to love it. I shoot it very well, but it had weak ejection with 115 Blazer brass. Some rounds were trickling out and hitting my support hand (southpaw). I then started having stovepipes. I'm still on the Blazer, having bought bulk, but it's not making the carry rotation any time soon.

[Clusterfrack]

Sample size of 8 p320s between my 4 and 4 more owned by friendse. 2 needed an updated extractor. All have been reliable and very accurate. Round cunts of 10-20k haven't had any effect on accuracy.

:o Uh, that should have read "round counts..." I was running on no sleep for 24 hours--long air travel odyssey.

[cheby]

:o Uh, that should have read "round counts..." .
I am glad the round counts did not affect the accuracy either, LOL

[PensFan]

nevermind.....

[UNK]

Hi,

was on social media this AM and saw a screenshot from Larry Vickers stating that the Sig P320 failed the FBI test miserably. Anyone have any info or details on this? Anyone have any problems out of their 320s? I admittedly am new to the gun. I have been a DA/SA fan boy since I started shooting/carrying/competing and only picked up some 320s after I was challenged by my friend to try out SFAs in 2017. I only have 1,500 rounds through mine in the last 4 weeks, but it's been flawless (1,500 rounds is obviously nothing).

Just wanted to ask what I needed to watch for, what known problems the guns have, and what spare parts.to stock up on. I'll be maintaining 1,500 rounds until March when I'll probably start hitting 4-6k a month through the gun. Just figured I'd ask the gentlemen who know the platform much better than me.

Thanks!

I looked around the WWW and found another post saying basically the same thing you did but saying it was posted on Facebook. So I went to Mr Vickers page and went back to Nov 28, unless I overlooked it I couldn't find any such statement by Mr. Vickers and oddly enough an internet search doesn't turn up any images or info either.
Can you post up some info/links to verify this claim?

[Kirk]

I looked around the WWW and found another post saying basically the same thing you did but saying it was posted on Facebook. So I went to Mr Vickers page and went back to Nov 28, unless I overlooked it I couldn't find any such statement by Mr. Vickers and oddly enough an internet search doesn't turn up any images or info either.
Can you post up some info/links to verify this claim?


I also saw it posted on a FB Sig P320 page. I'll have to look for it. It was definitely originally posted by LAV on Twitter though. I'll try to track it down.

[Dave Williams]

It's on Larry's FB page, under his post about the Glock 17M, in the comments under that.

[Kirk]

12651

[Dismas316]

Certainly disappointing if true and would like to know what specifically the failures were. Personally I am 100% confident in mine that I edc with. Approaching 3000 error free rounds with all types of ammo so unless I see an issue with mine or learn what specific problems are reported, I will continue to carry mine with confidence.

[11B10]

:o Uh, that should have read "round counts..." I was running on no sleep for 24 hours--long air travel odyssey.



Thanks, Cluster, I was getting worried cause even though I've seen my share, I had never seen a round one.

[JTPHD]

Sample of 1 P320 9FS: Approaching 16k rounds over the last year, a handful of failures to fire (high primers- my reloads). I suppose I'll just keep shooting it until it fails miserably. ;)

[Erick Gelhaus]

There were a few details mentioned in a September Primary & Secondary Modcast by Roland (of Roland Special fame) about the FN entrant.


I had a brief opportunity to handle & dry fire a pre-production version earlier this year. I am looking forward to seeing the production version ... not that I'm planning on switching platforms.

[UNK]

It's on Larry's FB page, under his post about the Glock 17M, in the comments under that.


12651


Certainly disappointing if true and would like to know what specifically the failures were. Personally I am 100% confident in mine that I edc with. Approaching 3000 error free rounds with all types of ammo so unless I see an issue with mine or learn what specific problems are reported, I will continue to carry mine with confidence.

Thanks Guys. I saw the Glock 17 post but didn't pursue to the comments.
I too would like to see some details.

[SCSU74]

A major advantage of the Glock, is decades of use under a wide range of conditions. Factory testing is important, but some issues only materialize over time. It is the reason many savvy pilots don't want to operate the first 100 serial numbers of a new helicopter or 50 serial numbers of a new fixed wing. Early adopters often get the arrows.

The 320 and VP9 are still relatively new pistols in the overall scheme of things.

This is the main reason I left it as a duty gun and went back to the 226. I personally have 5k through my full size and several thousand through my compact without issue, but the long term testing and spare parts aren't there yet.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Off the main topic, I always liked the P250. I ran about 5k through a full size gun, even shooting Bianchi Cup with it. The 250 in my experience was accurate and reliable, and as a revolver guy I liked he DAO trigger.

The gun really only had two major problems: couldn't change the rear sight for something better, and it was a DAO gun when DAO guns weren't cool anymore.

True. While the front is standard Sig, the rear is also the firing pin stop. Sig does make them in 3 different heights, with or without tritium. I Sharpie the rear dots and change the front to an orange Ameriglo CAP. That and a small grip frame.



I constantly come close to picking up a 250 Compact because you can get them in 9 for like $350 and I was under the impression the bugs were worked out. This new news on the 320 has me more hesitant.


For that money though you might as well risk it! Because if it's good you have a solid AIWB option for under 4 bills.

Considering that the magazines are nearly $50/ea, and they come with 2 mags, the gun is even a better deal.

[chiguy31]

Just had an out of battery experience with my 320 SIG. Here are pictures of the case.

[LOKNLOD]

Wow.
First, no injuries to you?
2nd, looks like the old trigger, no upgrade yet?
3rd, what more can you tell us about how it happened?

[pangloss]

I almost didn't even notice that it was a .357 Sig. Not much bottle neck left in that brass.

[5pins]

Handload?

[seamastersw]

I had a piece of brass I picked up from the range fail above the extractor groove in my 320. I’ve reloaded over 10k in 9mm and have not had any other issues beside that. The 320 barrel is heavily throated and largly unsupported. The 320 barrel has Way less support that my other P series guns are/were.

[peterthefish]

Handload?

Of course it is. But it’s always the gun’s fault, never the reload.

[KhanRad]

Of course it is. But it’s always the gun’s fault, never the reload.

Starline brass and the primer has some flattening to it too.

Starline brass is commonly used in the reloaded business. Either at home, or used by boutique ammo businesses.

[Bucky]

My local range got an early P320 as a rental gun, and it had a case failure like some of the earlier pictures posted here. This was with factory Federal AE, standard pressure, and the gun was still at a low round count.

[peterthefish]

Let’s please let the guy who owns the gun answer the question. There no need to make sarcastic speculative comments. Whether your supposition proves to be true or not, those sorts of comments aren’t particularly useful.

There’s nothing speculative about it. Starline doesn’t make factory ammo, and it’s a Starline case.

[HopetonBrown]

Wasn't there an out of battery discharge last week in a Stoeger class too?

[Hemiram]

I used to shoot reloads a lot, but recently, after seeing a lot of blown cases on web sites, forums, and recently in person (S&W M&P 9mm fullsized, LEO Trade in kaboomed and was trashed), I pretty much don't anymore. I have a box of pretty hot .357 ammo that I've been sitting on for a long time. Every time I take it out of the ammo box it's in, I think, "Which one of my guns will I put this through?", and I put it back. The guy who reloaded it has had some brain fogups lately and I don't have a lot of faith it is any good.

[Tokarev]

I was dinking around with some Buffalo Bore +P+ 9mm in my 320. I only fired a couple rounds. Cases came out looking like some kind of crazy short belted magnum. It was enough to convince me the Buffalo Bore stuff isn't safe in the SIG.

No such signs of crazy pressure with Speer factory +P Gold Dot nor with handloads using published +P data.

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[leebotx]

Looks like an out of battery ignition rather than an over pressure failure. The slide was unlocked and moving rearward effectively making the chamber longer and eliminating the case shoulder.

[Tokarev]

Looks like an out of battery ignition rather than an over pressure failure. The slide was unlocked and moving rearward effectively making the chamber longer and eliminating the case shoulder.Quite possibly.



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[LOKNLOD]

chiguy31 said it was an OOB, maybe he’ll come back and share some more info. Everything else here is 2nd hand guessing (educated guessing, perhaps).

[chiguy31]

Owe you folks a little more info. Bear with me as I try to tell you as much as I know; still several gaps in my knowledge.

I was doing some night shooting with a friend; this was slow deliberate fire as we were focused on seeing the target and acquiring whatever sight picture that we could.

As you can imagine with a 357 SIG, there was a significant muzzle flash (as an aside, with the 9mm CZ that we were also shooting, the flash started right at the nuzzle and was about the size of a softball); a little larger than a softball but starting about 6 inches from the muzzle.

Ammunition was factory (Speer 124 grain Gold Dot) and custom (Buffalo Bore 124 grain FMJ-FP). No hand loads.

The out of battery shot occurred in the middle of a 10 round string (3 shots remaining in the magazine). As I said, slow deliberate fire with no changes between rounds - no change in grip, no obstructions in the barrel, no change in angle of the gun.

The difference in muzzle flash was enormous - a large (I cannot reconstruct the size of the fireball) flash at the top of the gun signaled a problem (you think?) with a very different sound. There was also a blast in my face (no particles, but a very strong reminder that we should always wear safety glasses when shooting). The real effects of the blast were felt by my hands which tingled for quite a while after (into the next day). A reminder that the 357 SIG is a high intensity cartridge.

Immediately turned on the lights and examined the gun. The bullet had exited the barrel, but the cartridge was stuck in the chamber and took a fair bit of effort to rack the slide and lock it back. Needed a rod to push the cartridge out of the chamber.

That sums up the shooting experience; if you have more questions, I will monitor the thread more closely.

Need to talk about the SIG part of the experience.

The customer service rep at SIG adamantly denied that the case came from an OOB detonation - said that it was a physical impossibility that the 320 could ever fire OOB. He did send me a UPS return label and promised to repair the gun and install a modification that would ensure that it never happened again. I got in touch with one of the SIG armorers who stated that the repair will ensure that there would be no more OOB detonations. He confirmed that the 320 early models had this problem and that the new modification addressed that particular problem. (Wonder what that will do to trigger pull?)

That raises the question as to SIG's business practices. It appears that SIG knew that the 320 had the potential to fire OOB and made a business decision to fix the guns as complaints were made. Apparently they did not want the negative publicity (and the significant costs) of a recall, when the gun was in the running for a lucrative and prestigious military contract. New guns are reputed to have the new safety modifications. Question is, how many defective 320's are out there?

Interesting that SIG claimed both that the OOB detonation was impossible and that the new modification that they would install would ensure that there would be no more OOB's.

From my perspective, I have lost confidence in the 320 (I have the 357 for carry and a 9mm version for cheaper practice). Talk about developing a flinch in anticipation of the next OOB detonation! More importantly, the gun was dead after the OOB; imagine if I had been using the gun in an emergency.

[Totem Polar]

Interesting that SIG claimed both that the OOB detonation was impossible and that the new modification that they would install would ensure that there would be no more OOB's...

Judas H Priest. That really is too much.

Thanks for the detailed update.

Tangentially, I can verify that BB has used starline, based on my experience with various .38 loadings.

[LOKNLOD]

Thanks for the extra info! Glad you are alright and didn't sustain any worse injuries.

If nothing else I think this adds to the "get your Sig 'voluntary upgraded' " file. I think these are much better guns with the upgrade, shame it's taken bad stuff to get Sig there.

[Tokarev]

Here are a couple little videos I made. I'm attempting to get my upgraded P320 to fire out of battery. This is an older pistol with the "extra long disconnector notch."

Forgive the funky angle. I'm holding my phone between my knees while trying to hold the slight out of battery and still be able to pull the trigger.

https://youtu.be/wA4r_aiZsoo

As can be seen, the pistol will detonate a primer when the slide is not fully forward.

Another video trying to show the relationship between the barrel and slide. Note that the hood is still fully aligned with the top of the slide.

Ha! I didn't realize I was subconsciously holding my breath with each trigger press!

https://youtu.be/SdVX0uYfRrM

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[LOKNLOD]

The new disconnector mechanism should act as a disconnect safety and prevent an OOB discharge, however many of the slides Sig is retrofitting have a lightening cut that effectively moves the disconnector pocket surface that engages the disconnector to near the breech-face. On those guns, despite being upgraded, there will still be the potential for OOB discharges.

So “voluntarily upgrading” your guns doesn’t necessarily mean that this issue has been addressed.

I feel like an ass for saying this (again and again) but Sig gonna Sig. :(

Good points, and worth noting for sure.

ETA: my sentiment ^^^ was probably sufficient as a “like” and not a reply, but it’s worth emphasizing that at this stage in the product life cycle one needs to be extra wary about getting exactly what one wants.

[Tokarev]

Since your slide has the lightening cut, this is expected behavior — despite Sig sayings it’s impossible to start off with and will be fixed post upgrade. :(I'll have to try again with a pistol sans huge disconnector notch.

Even so the barrel isn't unlocked, per se, but rather the slide isn't fully into battery.

Ideal? Not really. Unsafe? Maybe. I'm not in a hurry to try with a live round.

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[Tokarev]

Does the original civilian gun set off a primer when pulled out of battery? I don't have one to try.

Same question for the newer upgrade version with a short notch.



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[TicTacticalTimmy]

Forgive my ignorance, but how exactly did the gun fire OOB? Not doubting anything, just curious

Are we assuming the case/round was out of spec and the slide didn't close all the way before trigger was pulled?

Is it possible that instead of an OOB, this Buffalo Bore cartridge had too much powder and the gun just unlocked early?

[LOKNLOD]

But it doesn’t matter. Pointing these things (like Sig being disingenuous about the “Disconnect Safety” from the get go) out just means I’m apparently a Glock fanboy and butthurt over the MHS selection. :(

it’s a feature not a bug, this is so it can keep firing and self-clean under dirty field conditions when the slide may not close fully

You need to get a P320 SCD to market so people think you have a vested interest in Sig :P

[5pins]

Here are a couple little videos I made. I'm attempting to get my upgraded P320 to fire out of battery. This is an older pistol with the "extra long disconnector notch."

Forgive the funky angle. I'm holding my phone between my knees while trying to hold the slight out of battery and still be able to pull the trigger.

https://youtu.be/wA4r_aiZsoo

As can be seen, the pistol will detonate a primer when the slide is not fully forward.

Another video trying to show the relationship between the barrel and slide. Note that the hood is still fully aligned with the top of the slide.

Ha! I didn't realize I was subconsciously holding my breath with each trigger press!

https://youtu.be/SdVX0uYfRrM

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Could you show a pic of the primer from the fired case?

[Tokarev]

Could you show a pic of the primer from the fired case?This might be a bit better video overall.

https://youtu.be/jdnIbWqKFzM

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[LOKNLOD]

As a data point, I played with both my (well, I guess one is technically pending the swap in a trade deal) upgraded P320s. Both have no lightening cuts in the slide, so the only slot is the one milled as part of the upgrade. Both will drop the striker with a bit of slight movement of the slide/barrel to the rear, but both will disconnect just as the barrel begins to cam downward and begin to unlock. A bone-stock G17.3 and an M&P Shield both behaved similarly, with varying degrees of horizontal movement due to the slightly differing designs obviously, but disconnecting before the barrel/breech interface began to compromise. The Sig has more horizontal movement prior to the barrel camming downward so it was more easily observable.

I didn't do it with a primed casing or video it, sorry, I didn't have enough hands (or primed casings laying around) for that.

[DpdG]

I asked about the alleged out of battery disconnect when I was in the armorer class, taken a couple months before the August fiasco. I was told the "out of battery disconnect" the sales material referred to was actually the timing of the interface between safety lever and striker block. Sig claimed if the slide was out of battery the sear might still drop, releasing the striker, but the safety lever could not disable the striker block. In that scenario, the striker block would catch the striker, preventing it from hitting the primer. After hearing that, I tried a pencil test with one of my personal guns- mine would launch the pencil if the slide was retracted while the barrel was tilting but not if the breech face had begun to separate from the barrel.

The above did not inspire my confidence, but I'm not smart enough to know if it's technically safe to fire a Browning action while the barrel is tilting but not fully unlocked. My gut says it's not a good idea.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

This might be a bit better video overall.

https://youtu.be/jdnIbWqKFzM


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WOW! That is scary... even after the "upgrade". Definitely diminishes my confidence in the P320


After hearing that, I tried a pencil test with one of my personal guns- mine would launch the pencil if the slide was retracted while the barrel was tilting but not if the breech face had begun to separate from the barrel.

The above did not inspire my confidence, but I'm not smart enough to know if it's technically safe to fire a Browning action while the barrel is tilting but not fully unlocked. My gut says it's not a good idea.

You've inspired me to obsessively pencil test each and every one of my carry guns in various stages of barrel tilting and unlocking.....

Amazing how fast a firing pin bores a hole through a plastic pen

[Hambo]

This might be a bit better video overall.

https://youtu.be/jdnIbWqKFzM

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:eek: Fuck me. That should alleviate any doubt.

[Tokarev]

:eek: Fuck me. That should alleviate any doubt.Well, the question still remains about upgraded guns with the short disconnector notch. If there is a dramatic change in the position of the slide vs a primer ignition I'm going to call SIG and ask for a new slide.

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[Balisong]

It is absolutely unbelievable how much of a mess the 320 is. I'm very grateful to you folks for sharing the info about firing OOB (sorry to say I missed Toms posts about it a couple years ago. Would have saved me a lot of time and money probably). I had already decided to sell all of mine after I voluntarily upgrade them, but I was considering doing a little more shooting of the RX model to determine if I wanna dive into RDS handguns. But now, screw it, I'm totally done with these piles of crap.

But then again, they're extremely safe since they don't have to be dry fired to be disassembled....

[LockedBreech]

Owe you folks a little more info. Bear with me as I try to tell you as much as I know; still several gaps in my knowledge.

I was doing some night shooting with a friend; this was slow deliberate fire as we were focused on seeing the target and acquiring whatever sight picture that we could.

As you can imagine with a 357 SIG, there was a significant muzzle flash (as an aside, with the 9mm CZ that we were also shooting, the flash started right at the nuzzle and was about the size of a softball); a little larger than a softball but starting about 6 inches from the muzzle.

Ammunition was factory (Speer 124 grain Gold Dot) and custom (Buffalo Bore 124 grain FMJ-FP). No hand loads.

The out of battery shot occurred in the middle of a 10 round string (3 shots remaining in the magazine). As I said, slow deliberate fire with no changes between rounds - no change in grip, no obstructions in the barrel, no change in angle of the gun.

The difference in muzzle flash was enormous - a large (I cannot reconstruct the size of the fireball) flash at the top of the gun signaled a problem (you think?) with a very different sound. There was also a blast in my face (no particles, but a very strong reminder that we should always wear safety glasses when shooting). The real effects of the blast were felt by my hands which tingled for quite a while after (into the next day). A reminder that the 357 SIG is a high intensity cartridge.

Immediately turned on the lights and examined the gun. The bullet had exited the barrel, but the cartridge was stuck in the chamber and took a fair bit of effort to rack the slide and lock it back. Needed a rod to push the cartridge out of the chamber.

That sums up the shooting experience; if you have more questions, I will monitor the thread more closely.

Need to talk about the SIG part of the experience.

The customer service rep at SIG adamantly denied that the case came from an OOB detonation - said that it was a physical impossibility that the 320 could ever fire OOB. He did send me a UPS return label and promised to repair the gun and install a modification that would ensure that it never happened again. I got in touch with one of the SIG armorers who stated that the repair will ensure that there would be no more OOB detonations. He confirmed that the 320 early models had this problem and that the new modification addressed that particular problem. (Wonder what that will do to trigger pull?)

That raises the question as to SIG's business practices. It appears that SIG knew that the 320 had the potential to fire OOB and made a business decision to fix the guns as complaints were made. Apparently they did not want the negative publicity (and the significant costs) of a recall, when the gun was in the running for a lucrative and prestigious military contract. New guns are reputed to have the new safety modifications. Question is, how many defective 320's are out there?

Interesting that SIG claimed both that the OOB detonation was impossible and that the new modification that they would install would ensure that there would be no more OOB's.

From my perspective, I have lost confidence in the 320 (I have the 357 for carry and a 9mm version for cheaper practice). Talk about developing a flinch in anticipation of the next OOB detonation! More importantly, the gun was dead after the OOB; imagine if I had been using the gun in an emergency.

I'm not sure how I missed this post. Im aghast. And even more disgusted at Sig of late. Consumers should not have to Dick Tracy to find safety issues. Companies should be jumping on that. Sig has proven several times with the 320 that sales numbers far outweigh end user safety.


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[LockedBreech]

Ruminating on this overnight has me inclined to pick up an on-sale $272 Ruger SR9E to add to the cheap curiosity plinker pile. I don't expect much from it, but I know if there's a problem Ruger owns it with a full recall, and I want to support that business practice.

[Balisong]

For you folks much much smarter than me at mechanical stuff, does the 250 have the same potential for firing OOB? I kinda doubt it, but my girlfriend's gun is a 250 (later model, not the first gen disaster) and if it's got the same potential issue that will obviously immediately cease to be her gun. Thanks

[Tokarev]

More videos with primed cases. This is an updated 320 vs an M&P 2.0. Both guns are tested by closing the slide with feeler gages stuck between the barrel hood and breechface.


https://youtu.be/oqR9yd3HxBI


https://youtu.be/P6YUenzuQo0


https://youtu.be/4xrs606YEXQ


https://youtu.be/xxz22XTEUFU

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[TiroFijo]

This might be a bit better video overall.

https://youtu.be/jdnIbWqKFzM

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It is out of battery, but I can't see if the barrel is still fully locked or not.

[Tokarev]

It is out of battery, but I can't see if the barrel is still fully locked or not.Yes barrel is still locked.

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[Jim Watson]

If the P320 Browning-ish tilt-lock action will drop the striker with the slide "out of battery" but the barrel still in locked position as shown in Tokarev's primer pop, and demonstrated by a centered primer indent, will it blow the case head as shown by chiguy31 in #53? Which also shows a centered primer indent, indicating a barrel in locked position.
How?
The barrel is still locked and the case as well "supported" as ever, even though the slide is a fraction back.

It is not just the P320. I think I have seen blown case heads in every make and model of pistol blamed on "out of battery." Yet the primers, where retained, are hit right in the middle, indicating a barrel in the up and locked position.

I have not seen a real analysis, just "out of battery" said as a mantra that explains all.
Anybody got a blow by blow description of what they think is going on?

I think somebody is going to have to sacrifice one of these guns with live ammo "out of battery" to give it a real test.
Why not? It is not worth anything except as a guinea pig, unreliable and unsafe.

[5pins]

If the P320 Browning-ish tilt-lock action will drop the striker with the slide "out of battery" but the barrel still in locked position as shown in Tokarev's primer pop, and demonstrated by a centered primer indent, will it blow the case head as shown by chiguy31 in #53? Which also shows a centered primer indent, indicating a barrel in locked position.
How?
The barrel is still locked and the case as well "supported" as ever, even though the slide is a fraction back.

It is not just the P320. I think I have seen blown case heads in every make and model of pistol blamed on "out of battery." Yet the primers, where retained, are hit right in the middle, indicating a barrel in the up and locked position.

I have not seen a real analysis, just "out of battery" said as a mantra that explains all.
Anybody got a blow by blow description of what they think is going on?

I think somebody is going to have to sacrifice one of these guns with live ammo "out of battery" to give it a real test.

Why not? It is not worth anything except as a guinea pig, unreliable and unsafe.

Yes, he was shooting Buffalo Bore.

[GlockenSpiel]

If the P320 Browning-ish tilt-lock action will drop the striker with the slide "out of battery" but the barrel still in locked position as shown in Tokarev's primer pop, and demonstrated by a centered primer indent, will it blow the case head as shown by chiguy31 in #53? Which also shows a centered primer indent, indicating a barrel in locked position.
How?
The barrel is still locked and the case as well "supported" as ever, even though the slide is a fraction back.

It is not just the P320. I think I have seen blown case heads in every make and model of pistol blamed on "out of battery." Yet the primers, where retained, are hit right in the middle, indicating a barrel in the up and locked position.

I have not seen a real analysis, just "out of battery" said as a mantra that explains all.
Anybody got a blow by blow description of what they think is going on?

I think somebody is going to have to sacrifice one of these guns with live ammo "out of battery" to give it a real test.
Why not? It is not worth anything except as a guinea pig, unreliable and unsafe.The point of a short recoil action is that the slide and barrel recoil locked together for a short distance. This gives time for chamber pressures to drop. If the pistol is fired with the locked slide/barrel retracted already and the two are about to unlock, there's not enough time for pressure to drop to a safe level. Hence, case failure.

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[Tokarev]

I didn't make a video of the M&P firing slightly out of battery but it, too, will pop a primer with the slide about 1/10in from being fully forward.

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[Jim Watson]

If the pistol is fired with the locked slide/barrel retracted already and the two are about to unlock, there's not enough time for pressure to drop to a safe level. Hence, case failure.

That is about what I expected to get.
I would like to see it demonstrated under controlled conditions. I mean, everybody agrees the guns aren't worth anything.

[Tokarev]

Yes, he was shooting Buffalo Bore.That shouldn't be something that's ruled out. Buffalo Bore runs the ragged edge with a bunch of their stuff.

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[Navyguns]

Does anyone have the official FBI report concerning the new pistol testing results? How all entrants performed?

[Tokarev]

Does anyone have the official FBI report concerning the new pistol testing results? How all entrants performed?I imagine that's all covered by NDA's. We may never know who submitted guns and which ones failed.

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[PensFan]

Does anyone have the official FBI report concerning the new pistol testing results? How all entrants performed?

I don't believe anything will ever be officially reported. It really doesn't matter anymore anyway. Water under the bridge..

[Navyguns]

I don't believe anything will ever be officially reported. It really doesn't matter anymore anyway. Water under the bridge..


I would like to see how the FBI tests the weapons and the methodology. In many ways the FBI testing weapons is more informative to a armed civilian than the military pistol testing.

[Sigfan26]

I don't believe anything will ever be officially reported. It really doesn't matter anymore anyway. Water under the bridge..

I wonder if the officer suing Sig for his gun discharging could request it to see if the test showed the same issue?

[Sigfan26]

I think there is exactly a zero percent chance of Sig letting that case go to trial.

Absolutely. However, I wonder if he could. Can you imagine the backlash if the testing showed that this was possible, but it was not reported to the public?

[Sam]

Absolutely. However, I wonder if he could. Can you imagine the backlash if the testing showed that this was possible, but it was not reported to the public?

He could try to subpoena those documents but whether or not Sig could quash it would be up to a web of federal and state law that is above my pay grade.

[HCM]

I would like to see how the FBI tests the weapons and the methodology. In many ways the FBI testing weapons is more informative to a armed civilian than the military pistol testing.

The methodology should be specified in the RFI / solicitation.

The details of which guns were submitted and how they performed is covered under NDA's and will not be released.

Same with the recent ICE pistol testing on both counts.

[HCM]

I wonder if the officer suing Sig for his gun discharging could request it to see if the test showed the same issue?

Even if the officer and his legal team were able to subpoena it, it would likely only be provided under seal. Meaning it would be used in the litigation but still not made public per court order. .

[John Hearne]

Has anyone filed a FOIA for the info? That would be the logical first step.

https://www.fbi.gov/services/records-management/foipa

[Spartan1980]

I didn't make a video of the M&P firing slightly out of battery but it, too, will pop a primer with the slide about 1/10in from being fully forward.

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To confirm, 1/10 of an inch? That's .100". My Gen 1 M&Ps are almost completely unlocked at that distance so yes they are extremely OOB.

[TiroFijo]

To confirm, 1/10 of an inch? That's .100". My Gen 1 M&Ps are almost completely unlocked at that distance so yes they are extremely OOB.

1/10 of an inch is pretty big...
I would guess (based in analysis of other pistols with hi speed films) that shooting from battey the slide+barrel should be recoiling about this distance in the moment the bullet exits the bore. Ussualy there is not too much distance left before unlocking, but I don't the locking geometry of the P320.

If someone is corageous enough to fire the guns while they are 0.10" out of battery (better from a fixture ;D), we could see anything from vertical stringing and poor accuracy to blown cases...

[PensFan]

I think there is exactly a zero percent chance of Sig letting that case go to trial.

Exactly! No way Sig opens the door for "discovery". They will make it go away and part of it will be NDA's.

[DallasBronco]

1/10 of an inch is pretty big...
I would guess (based in analysis of other pistols with hi speed films) that shooting from battey the slide+barrel should be recoiling about this distance in the moment the bullet exits the bore. Ussualy there is not too much distance left before unlocking, but I don't the locking geometry of the P320.

If someone is corageous enough to fire the guns while they are 0.10" out of battery (better from a fixture ;D), we could see anything from vertical stringing and poor accuracy to blown cases...
The limit sounds more like the breach face being too far back from the primer for the striker to impact it more so than any safety preventing the discharge. It would be hard to really test, unless striker protrusion was measured and used in the determination how far to retract the breach.

[deputyG23]

For you folks much much smarter than me at mechanical stuff, does the 250 have the same potential for firing OOB? I kinda doubt it, but my girlfriend's gun is a 250 (later model, not the first gen disaster) and if it's got the same potential issue that will obviously immediately cease to be her gun. Thanks
I would be interested in this as well since I have a 1st gen P250 which has been excellent so far.

[TiroFijo]

The limit sounds more like the breach face being too far back from the primer for the striker to impact it more so than any safety preventing the discharge. It would be hard to really test, unless striker protrusion was measured and used in the determination how far to retract the breach.

...or perhaps the extractor hook retains the case close enough to the breechface that it can fire.

[DallasBronco]

...or perhaps the extractor hook retains the case close enough to the breechface that it can fire.

That's a really good point. I hadn't considered that at all. That would allow the gun to be further out of battery and/or the barrel unlocked.

[Tokarev]

More videos:

First is running various feeler gages in a Glock 17, VTAC M&P, Ruger American and a P320 Compact and P320 X5.

Note that they'll all pretty much pop a primer at some point without the slide being seated 100%. The feeler gages don't really do anything other than measure the fit of the barrel hood. Still, it does give a more consistent metric rather than just trying to ease the slide back and forth to find the sweet spot that holds the slide in enough or out enough to pop a primer.

Note that both 320's will close, with a little pressure, on the .004" feeler gage.


https://youtu.be/1b85eAf0IzE

[Tokarev]

Next is firing the Glock with a .003 shim holding the slide back.


https://youtu.be/u0NCFiW-7Vw

[Tokarev]

Last is the 320 with a .005" holding the slide back. We tried a .004" but the slide kept wanting to close fully so we went .001" thicker.


https://youtu.be/gB1X6NkwqWA

[Tokarev]

Fired cases from the Glock and SIG. Note the off center hits. So I think even if the striker can travel forward it would probably miss the primer with either case with any additional slide movement.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171201/e5215d77a7dcfb358005d275a394c1ef.jpg

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[DallasBronco]

I think TiroFijo makes a key point. If the extractor grabbed the case as the slide came out of battery and held the round against the breach face then the primer hits would likely be centered. Questions are, does that happen in actual operation, and how far could the slide go out of battery before the firing pin block prevented the striker from hitting the primer?

[DallasBronco]

Remember that we are talking about tilting barrel locking short recoil actions here. It’s the titling of the barrel that causes the primer hit to be off center as the slide comes out of battery. The extractor just retains the case head against/near the breech face — it doesn’t maintain the case’s position relative to the firing pin — as the slide comes out of battery and the case is extracted.

Again, good point. I'm certainly no expert in pistol lockwork. In your opinion, do you think there is anything to this? From what I remember about the M&P accuracy issues, it was believed that the action coming out of battery while the round was still in the barrel was the likely culprit for the shotgun pattern spreads. Wouldn't people be experiencing similar issues with the 320 were that happening?

[Spartan1980]

Again, good point. I'm certainly no expert in pistol lockwork. In your opinion, do you think there is anything to this? From what I remember about the M&P accuracy issues, it was believed that the action coming out of battery while the round was still in the barrel was the likely culprit for the shotgun pattern spreads. Wouldn't people be experiencing similar issues with the 320 were that happening?

I checked all 6 of my M&Ps last night and the trigger will release the striker on all with the slide up to about .030" out of battery, at that point the barrel is still locked to the slide but it's right at the point of starting down to unlock. I did not try to ignite primed cases only noted that the striker would be released by the trigger. Also at the farther limits the striker would push the slide into battery and didn't really feel like a primer would have ignited. 4 of my 6 have had trigger work done on them and I'm not certain if that plays a role or not, but a 9 Shield and .40FS are bone stock with no apparent difference in operation. I have an early 45FS, very early 9 Pro, pretty recent 9FS, .40FS and two 9 Shields, all Gen 1 guns.

Then I checked my 3 Glocks. Same story. So the OOB P320 incident I'm thinking had a real manufacturing defect that caused it to fire OOB with the barrel not completely locked to the slide. I could be wrong but it seems there are too many guns that operate the same way to call it a design defect and it's entirely too widespread across manufacturers and models to call it a design defect. Just my $0.02.

[LockedBreech]

I think people are talking about different things or at least not defining things the same way.

Again, we’re talking about tilting barrel locking, short recoil systems. There are two different, but coupled, things happening. There’s “short recoil” where the barrel and slide travel rearward together, and then there is “tilting barrel locking/unlocking”. There is a difference between the slide being retracted a bit and wedging stuff between the breech face and the barrel. The former is, at least potentially, during the short recoil portion of the operation and the latter is 100% absolutely after it and possibly into tilting barrel unlocking.

Perhaps to some, out of battery means “slide not fully forward”. To others, perhaps it means “breech face not in contact with the barrel”. Those two things are different.

This idea has been nagging on the back of my brain as I've read the thread and I wasn't able to put my finger on it.

Is a good illustration of this separation the PX4/Cougar series? I was just messing with my Cougar 8000F thinking about this. The barrel and slide travel together briefly for the short travel of the locking lug in the barrel groove, and then the slide continues back at the end of the lug's travel. So that's a short recoil action but NOT a tilting barrel action, yes?

[DpdG]

I could have been more clear in my previously explained experiment- based on my pencil launching, it appears my pre-recall P320 would fire at any point during the "short recoil" phase. Within the margin of my measuring abilities, it would cease to launch pencils very early in the initiation of the "barrel tilting" phase. The deceptive part was the striker would still be released well into the "barrel tilting" (even as the barrel was not totally in contact with the breech face) but it was captured by the striker block and would not hit a primer.

In summary- my sample of one pre-recall P320 would likely fire if the slide was not fully forward, but not if the barrel was no longer in contact with the breech face. My post recall ones, which do not have the problematic lightening cuts in the slide, seem to disable the striker even earlier, before reaching the "barrel tilting" phase.

[0ddl0t]

More videos:

First is running various feeler gages in a Glock 17, VTAC M&P, Ruger American and a P320 Compact and P320 X5.

Note that they'll all pretty much pop a primer at some point without the slide being seated 100%. The feeler gages don't really do anything other than measure the fit of the barrel hood. Still, it does give a more consistent metric rather than just trying to ease the slide back and forth to find the sweet spot that holds the slide in enough or out enough to pop a primer.

Note that both 320's will close, with a little pressure, on the .004" feeler gage.


https://youtu.be/1b85eAf0IzE

Very cool video, thanks!

I wonder if this is intentional so your pistol will still fire if you jam the crown of the barrel into a wall/perp and it pushes the slide rearward slightly.


As for the FBI test results, I'd love to see them too. But looking through the official solicitation, it seemed like the Glock had a lot of standard features the FBI wanted:



C.3.5 Contractor may purchase components for the firearm from other sources; however, the Contractor shall be the primary manufacturer of the pistol. Contractor may not use or employ any subcontractors without the prior approval of the COR.
I don't think Glock uses any subcontractors, but Sig uses many interchangeably.


C.4.3.g The follower shall move freely in the magazine body without binding and shall position each round for positive feeding.It is preferred the follower be a high visibility color (orange, red, yellow, etc.).
I don't think Sig offers high viz followers


C.4.3.h Magazines shall have witness holes which will permit viewing the number of rounds in at least 5 round intervals.

It is preferred witness holes exist for each cartridge contained in the magazine starting with cartridge number 4 and showing every cartridge contained in the magazine thereafter.
Sig magazines don't count individual rounds


C.4.8.d The slide stop lever should be designed such that it is unlikely a shooter will inadvertently engage or override the control during normal firing.
For some shooters, Sig's require an altered grip to avoid slide lock override.


C.4.14.b Characteristics

Front and rear sight must allow the shooter to acquire the proper sight alignment rapidly.

The proper alignment of the sights will be consistent with “equal height, equal light” sight alignment. The information line for the FBI is the top of the metallic sights.

Figure 2 below represents 25 yard point of aim/point of impact:

39266

Sigs use a combat hold, not a center hold, though you'd think they could make the change just for FBI guns.


C.4.15.d Two acceptable methods of accommodating for different hand sizes are:

Multiple Frame Sizes
Two alternate sizes must be available and supplied with each pistol.

Grip/Frame Inserts
Two alternate sizes must be available and supplied with each pistol.

It is required the size of a frame or insert be marked on an exterior surface (e.g., “M” for medium, “L” large) for rapid identification without disassembly.
I suspect the FBI considers Glock's interchangeable backstraps much easier to deal with than swapping grip modules.