Mixing .380 ammo types a viable option?

[37th Mass]

So, I've been reading about how a .380 will 'get you kilt on the streetz' because you either need to fire hardball for penetration with no expansion, or else hollow points for expansion with no penetration.

Would a mix of alternating .380 hardball (or wadcutter, flat nose, etc.) with hollow point rounds in the magazine of a small .380 be a way to ensure lethality from that caliber? You would have to practice firing controlled pairs...

I've been pocket carrying a j-frame regularly and feel good about the .38 spcl bullet effectiveness, but with only five rounds in the gun and five on a speedstrip I would feel under gunned if having to deal with more than one or two threats. A pocket .380 with 6+1 or 7+1 capacity might make me feel a little better, but factoring in a controlled pair for each threat would bring me about back to where I started with the j-frame.

I could start carrying one of my 9mm pistols, but that would triple the weight and force me to change my style of dress. I guess I could buy a smaller 9mm and learn a new manual of arms...

I'd appreciate hearing the opinions of the forum members on mixing .380 ammo types in a small pistol as a way to increase lethality of that caliber.

[jetfire]

I would just stick with one choice. Most .380 JHP under penetrates, even loads from manufacturers that are normally good to go. It's a compromise caliber, so you'll have to make compromises. Me personally I'd go with JHP and risk under penetration, because JHP is less likely to skip off a bone.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'd stick with the j frame.

[Leroy Suggs]

I'd stick with the j frame.

This is the correct answer.

[okie john]

Glock 43.


Okie John

[Sasage]

Shield 9mm

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[olstyn]

Glock 43.


Shield 9mm

Might as well round out the suggestions with the other viable choice in that caliber/form factor:

Walther PPS or PPS M2

[Velo Dog]

Mixing .380 ammo types a viable option?

No.

1) .380 Auto hollow points already tend to expand poorly or inconsistently - especially after clothing or when fired from micro pistols - thereby essentially giving occasional FMJ-like performance.

2) Hard barriers such as car doors and windshields are challenging for .380 even with full metal jacketed bullets.

3) Getting even one solid hit per assailant may be difficult in an actual gunfight.

4) Mixing ammo in the same magazine can increase the chance of malfunction in some pistols.

5) Ammo performance is only one of many concerns with small .380 automatics.

[Flintsky]

Service calibers only sir......if you are serious about actually stopping a human threat in a timely manner. .38spl, 9mm, .40, .357sig, .357mag, .45acp.....etc. There are many options for those, and you will likely find a sweet spot.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There aren't any magic lethal bullets - http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/12/20/attempted-suicide-gun-range/

Horrible. Also, to be legally PC in the gun world, asking on the internet about assuring lethality isn't the wisest idea.

[jetfire]

.38 from a snub gun has pretty similar ballistics to a .380, so I know if I'd really put it in the same category as a real service caliber.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doug MacRay]

.38 from a snub gun has pretty similar ballistics to a .380, so I know if I'd really put it in the same category as a real service caliber.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think the ability to use wadcutters in a .38 snub sets it apart from a .380, all else being equal. It's going to make a bigger hole than a .380 FMJ or non-expanding JHP.

[lwt16]

I carry a .380 G42 as a BUG at work. It replaced my j frame 442 once it passed the 500 round mark for reliability. I chose Speer Gold Dot .380acp as a compromise between penetration and expansion. The G42 has a bit more barrel length and the testing that I have watched seems to make this a good combination.

I have the Magguts kit installed in one of my mags giving it 7+1 capacity which gives me 3 more rounds than my j-frame held. I have Talon grips and a Hackathorn-ish sight set up. I feel confident with it set up like this.

I'd stick with one type of ammo and be done with it, if I were you. Youtube is full of good testing videos (shootingthebull, and others) that should allow you to choose a load.

Regards.

[Flintsky]

[QUOTE=Doug MacRay;539961]I think the ability to use wadcutters in a .38 snub sets it apart from a .380, all else being equal. It's going to make a bigger hole than a .380 FMJ or non-expanding JHP.[QUOTE/]

The wadcutter(true cylinder shape) is the most efficient tissue damaging bullet shape. Duncan MacPherson demonstrated this in is book "Bullet Penetration". The two most effective non-mushrooming bullet shapes for damaging tissue are a true sphere, or a true cylinder. There was virtually no difference in tissue disruption and damage between a pointed round nose, or semiwadcutter designs(just on paper targets).

Shortening the barrel on any caliber makes it less effective. The big thing that .38spl has going for it is that it can shoot heavy bullets....which the .380acp cannot. As an officer, I occasionally get to see the results of gunshot wounds. I have seen a .22lr punch through a man's skull with no exit hole and it killed him almost instantly.......but I have also seen a man take 8 .22lr hits to the COM of his torso and he was still walking around saying he needed to get to the hospital. If you remove direct cranium or heart hits, then you start to notice a predictable trend in caliber effectiveness. I conclude based on the 6 .22lr shootings that I have dealt with, that it is a poor choice for self defense. I have seen 4 .380acp shootings, and none of them successfully "stopped" the threat other than scaring one party away. In one shooting a .380 JHP bounced off a man's skull, and another went through his bicep and stopped when it impacted the humerus(cracked it). In another shooting a man was shot through a residential bathroom plate-glass window and the JHP penetrated approximately 2" into his chest before it was stopped by the rib cage. Another man was shot twice in the chest by .380 FMJ....he called the cops, and walked to the ambulance for assistance when they arrived. My last .380 shooting involved a man who was shot in the side of the face just below his eye socket. The .380 JHP imbedded in the bone, and was easily removed during surgery.

Yes, all calibers have a percentage of failures to get the job done in the field based on a number of factors. However, the standard handgun service calibers have either a little more horsepower, a little more momentum, or both to perform more work......and thus the ability to generate larger, deeper wounds while punching through barriers better.

[Jeep]

Would a mix of alternating .380 hardball (or wadcutter, flat nose, etc.) with hollow point rounds in the magazine of a small .380 be a way to ensure lethality from that caliber? You would have to practice firing controlled pairs...



This is a good question. My own view is that a j-frame with a adequate wadcutters is much better than a .380, and a pocket 9mm is better than a j-frame. However, there are times in which you can only carry a .380, and as sub-marginal as a .380 is, it is a lot better than nothing.

So I experimented with an LCP and mixtures of various ammunition, and I found that it could feed alternating flat points and JHPs without any problem, and that is what I carry in a .380.

It is a sub-optional compromise in a sub-optional caliber, but it appears to me that it is one of the better .380 compromises, all of which are suboptimal.

However, if you a considering carrying a .380 solely to increase your capacity to engage multiple targets, I think you are heading in the wrong direction. In fact, even with multiple targets, one shot from a j-frame is going to send most of them fleeing. If your potential targets are unlikely to flee and might well shoot back, I'd suggest (1) you are hanging out in the wrong neighborhoods (which might be impossible to change) and (2) you need to up gun, not down gun. Something like a Glock 19 is very much in order.

There are very, very few neighborhoods like that in the US, but there are some and if you come into contact with them you really should put the idea of a .380 aside. By contrast, if your felons are typical and flee at one shot, I'd keep the j-frame and load it with Remington, Federal of Winchester wadcutters. Your chances of getting into a prolonged gunfight in most of the US are so low that they aren't currently really worth worrying about.

[37th Mass]

Thanks for all the input folks. There are a lot of smart and experienced people on this forum and I appreciate the free words of wisdom. I found Flintsky's accounts of .380 performance especially eye opening.

I think I'll stick with my J-frame for a while and start researching small, single stack 9mm pistols.

[Scarpia]

I think I'll stick with my J-frame for a while and start researching small, single stack 9mm pistols.

I don't see any comments on capacity. My carry 380's are the Sig P238 (7+1) for motorcycling and the Bersa 85. The Bersa is 15+1 using a modified (notch) Thunder 380 Plus magazine. I don't want to be at the business end of this thing with 16 rounds of 95 grain JHP's of any manufacture at 1000 f/s. Maybe one or two rounds won't stop a BG, but I defy anyone not to be stopped with 16. Period.

Regarding the 'small single stack 9': The M&P Shield 9mm with the extended 2+ magazine extension (9+1) has replaced the Bersa for carrying. Less capacity but more stopping power per round was a trade off I accepted. I was actually looking at a Khar compact 9 when I stumbled across the Shield 9 in a LGS's display case labeled as "used, unfired" at a heavily discounted price. It was a no brainer, I jumped on it. Inspired by every aspect of this 9, I quickly went to the Shield 45 (7+1) which is now my primary carry piece. The Shield 45 is only slightly larger in OAL and weight versus the Shield 9. Less capacity for sure but it only takes one in 45 ACP.

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't see any comments on capacity.... Less capacity for sure but it only takes one in 45 ACP.

Capacity is one of the last attributes I care about in a pistol...and lulz at the caliber comment.

[MVS]

. Less capacity for sure but it only takes one in 45 ACP.

Oh no you didn't. :eek:

[SWAT Lt.]

Maybe one or two rounds won't stop a BG, but I defy anyone not to be stopped with 16. Period.

Less capacity for sure but it only takes one in 45 ACP.

Not to be a dick, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Leroy Suggs]

Not to be a dick, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

That's for sure.

[Scarpia]

Wow!! Run off the forum with my first posting, very impressive...

[scw2]

Wow!! Run off the forum with my first posting, very impressive...

Hopefully you stick around :) Tons of great info here and I get the impression guys that have been around guns longer than I have continually have these same conversations with people and I'm sure it gets old. Two relevant threads by DocGKR on ammo selections and calibers that were helpful when I started learning about pistols on this forum: General service calibers (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo) and 380 vs 39 spl (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp)

I'd say that these quotes from the first linked article are especially relevant:

"Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios."

and

"Unless your department picks your caliber for you, pick the platform you shoot best, then decide on caliber from there. Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition; the platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. Currently the best duty pistols going right out of the box are probably the Glocks, S&W M&P's, as well as HK."

[Drang]

Wow!! Run off the forum with my first posting, very impressive...

Read a few other threads. In one post you made two statements that have been and are still being discussed and debunked.

[BehindBlueI's]

Wow!! Run off the forum with my first posting, very impressive...

Up to you. If you expect to post gunshop lore and not have it challenged, you'll not like it here. If you want to learn from been there done that folks and some recognized experts, stick around.

[jetfire]

I don't see any comments on capacity. My carry 380's are the Sig P238 (7+1) for motorcycling and the Bersa 85. The Bersa is 15+1 using a modified (notch) Thunder 380 Plus magazine. I don't want to be at the business end of this thing with 16 rounds of 95 grain JHP's of any manufacture at 1000 f/s. Maybe one or two rounds won't stop a BG, but I defy anyone not to be stopped with 16. Period.

Regarding the 'small single stack 9': The M&P Shield 9mm with the extended 2+ magazine extension (9+1) has replaced the Bersa for carrying. Less capacity but more stopping power per round was a trade off I accepted. I was actually looking at a Khar compact 9 when I stumbled across the Shield 9 in a LGS's display case labeled as "used, unfired" at a heavily discounted price. It was a no brainer, I jumped on it. Inspired by every aspect of this 9, I quickly went to the Shield 45 (7+1) which is now my primary carry piece. The Shield 45 is only slightly larger in OAL and weight versus the Shield 9. Less capacity for sure but it only takes one in 45 ACP.

I can't tell if this is just dumb or clever trolling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MVS]

I can't tell if this is just dumb or clever trolling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good point. After rereading it, it could be that he is just testing us.

[jetfire]

Good point. After rereading it, it could be that he is just testing us.

I've been on the internet so long that my radar is totally fucked for that sort of thing. Something either has to be balls out trolling or legit pants on head dumb anymore for me to not be suspicious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk