Shooting while moving support/weak hand only

[LSW]

Does anyone have any good drills for getting better at this? Lately it seems a lot of matches have standards stages or regular stages that require fairly long range shots (15+ yards) with weak hand only while moving. I absolutely suck at this. It probably doesn't help that I'm shooting IDPA BUG division with an M&P 40 compact. On shots with WHO at 15 yards plus, it's a challenge to hit the target at all if I'm facing time pressure. I really have to go slow to get -0/-1 hits, and while moving it's a total crapshoot even if I do go slow. I generally try to hold slightly hight and to the left when shooting WHO, because the muzzle will move low right during my trigger press under time pressure (it's a 6 pound trigger).

Thanks.

[JustOneGun]

I always tried to keep it simple during training. I figured that if a drill worked to develop two handed shooting then it would work for one handed. I would use the same drills you used during two handed training.

I think the thing to think about isn't just bringing up your one handed shooting but to start again, learning to shoot one handed. Pushing the limits slowly until the wheels start to fall off and backing off again. That may sound like a duh statement but I found that many people say they do that but what they really do is short change the one handed shooting. They don't use the same training concepts that worked for them in two handed shooting.

Many people have problems with the 15 yard shots but get the closer hits, "Ok" They think it is that they just need to practice more on the one handed shooting. That could be true but often it's really a visual problem. They are shooting cross dominate now and it often shows up at distance. Often that shows up with a group forming high and to the dominate eye side of the target.

[Mr_White]

Does anyone have any good drills for getting better at this? Lately it seems a lot of matches have standards stages or regular stages that require fairly long range shots (15+ yards) with weak hand only while moving. I absolutely suck at this. It probably doesn't help that I'm shooting IDPA BUG division with an M&P 40 compact. On shots with WHO at 15 yards plus, it's a challenge to hit the target at all if I'm facing time pressure. I really have to go slow to get -0/-1 hits, and while moving it's a total crapshoot even if I do go slow. I generally try to hold slightly hight and to the left when shooting WHO, because the muzzle will move low right during my trigger press under time pressure (it's a 6 pound trigger).

Thanks.

Hmmm, well I have a bunch of thoughts.

Shooting WHO is pretty hard for anyone, and super mega hard for a whole lot of people.

Ditto shooting on the move.

Ditto shooting at 15 yards.

Multiply them for WHO at 15 yards while on the move too. Seriously, I wouldn't add the difficulties, I would multiply them.

I gotta say I'm surprised to hear about an actual requirement to shoot WHO at 15 yards while moving. What kind of movement? Surely that's unspecified, so I would guess people are doing the super slow walk since it's required, and they would be better off shooting static, running, then shooting static again. But I get stage requirements - I'm just pretty surprised at the nature of the requirements you are reporting.

Anyway, what to do about it?

First, if the stage allows it, I would seriously consider not shooting a 15 yard WHO shot on the move. Shoot-run-shoot instead.

Second, to the extent you do want to shoot WHO on the move at 15 yards, you need to first get your static WHO shooting well beyond the level of accuracy that you want to be able to deliver while on the move, because when you move too, it will be harder.

Third, put your WHO shooting skill to work while on the move. You need to minimize the wobble zone but recognize that it will be larger than static. Your WHO trigger press needs to be excellent and not make the shot even worse than the wobble zone will. The direction you move will have a lot to do with the difficulty of shooting WHO on the move. Forward and back will be ok. If you are right-handed, moving left-to-right will be pretty good because you will not have undue tension between the upper and lower body. Right-to-left is going to be by far the most challenging when shooting WHO on the move because it is going to force you to present the gun all the way across your body and it will be subject to a lot of movement. It is just going to take a lot of work, and I would guess it will never be as viable as most of the other arrangements of shooting on the move, so again, unless the stage actually requires this, I would try to figure out almost any other way to shoot it.

[JAD]

I don't know much but I like what Gabe said. I would really emphasize working on WHO static. I would do walkback work both dry and live. Put up a 2" dot, start at 3 yards, and figure out what you have to do to guarantee a hit (while your sights are aligned with the target -- kentucky windaging a bad trigger pull is not a path forward). Watch the front sight and work the trigger. Once you're very confident in your ability to stay on the 2" at 3y, move back to 4, then 5, then push yourself at 7. Then go back to 3 and do it from the low ready under time pressure. Only then would I mess with going to a big target (IDPA -0 zone or a paper plate) and moving.

[LSW]

Thanks for the replies all, I appreciate it. A lot to think about and I will be implenting it into my practice.

As for stages: http://www.caps-club.org/stage-designs.html It's usually something like stage 5 from this one every week.

http://www.caps-club.org/uploads/2/5/7/3/2573732/stage-5-keep-it-moving-drill.jpg

Last time it was 3 seperate strings advancing from 15 with a fault line at 10 freestyle, SHO, WHO. On this one you could do the weak hand only while standing at P2 I guess, but then you'd making headshots most likely.

The other clubs I'm shooting at usually have some closer in stuff WHO too, but often more precise shots, mozambiques, covered targets, non threats covering targets, etc.

[taadski]

Not that it really matters for the purposes of the discussion, but that's not a legal IDPA stage as you've described it. Bill and Joyce might give your club an FTDR flogging if they ever found out! :D

[voodoo_man]

15 yard is interesting as it's just outside backplate shooting distance.

Shooting and moving fast is hard no matter what way you slice it. You either move slow enough to find your sights or fast enough to "make hits" but nothing that is done with any sort of sight.

[LSW]

Not that it really matters for the purposes of the discussion, but that's not a legal IDPA stage as you've described it. Bill and Joyce might give your club an FTDR flogging if they ever found out! :D

I hear ya, haha, I'm not in any clubs though, I just show up to their matches sometimes. I just shoot whatever I can, and around here there are usually two idpa matches every weekend while USPSA is only about once a month. I'm not very good and probably never will be since I travel overseas for 17 days a month for work and can't even dryfire during that time, much less actually shoot.

[JohnO]

Hmmm, well I have a bunch of thoughts.

Shooting WHO is pretty hard for anyone, and super mega hard for a whole lot of people.

Ditto shooting on the move.

Ditto shooting at 15 yards.

Multiply them for WHO at 15 yards while on the move too. Seriously, I wouldn't add the difficulties, I would multiply them.

I gotta say I'm surprised to hear about an actual requirement to shoot WHO at 15 yards while moving. What kind of movement? Surely that's unspecified, so I would guess people are doing the super slow walk since it's required, and they would be better off shooting static, running, then shooting static again. But I get stage requirements - I'm just pretty surprised at the nature of the requirements you are reporting.

Anyway, what to do about it?

First, if the stage allows it, I would seriously consider not shooting a 15 yard WHO shot on the move. Shoot-run-shoot instead.

Second, to the extent you do want to shoot WHO on the move at 15 yards, you need to first get your static WHO shooting well beyond the level of accuracy that you want to be able to deliver while on the move, because when you move too, it will be harder.

Third, put your WHO shooting skill to work while on the move. You need to minimize the wobble zone but recognize that it will be larger than static. Your WHO trigger press needs to be excellent and not make the shot even worse than the wobble zone will. The direction you move will have a lot to do with the difficulty of shooting WHO on the move. Forward and back will be ok. If you are right-handed, moving left-to-right will be pretty good because you will not have undue tension between the upper and lower body. Right-to-left is going to be by far the most challenging when shooting WHO on the move because it is going to force you to present the gun all the way across your body and it will be subject to a lot of movement. It is just going to take a lot of work, and I would guess it will never be as viable as most of the other arrangements of shooting on the move, so again, unless the stage actually requires this, I would try to figure out almost any other way to shoot it.


Accept the wobble. The wobble always appears much worse than it actually results on target. What your vision sees and how it is processed by the brain is in the order of 2 to 3+ times worse than what it really is. As distance to the target increases the optical illusion of the wobble zone being too big for an accurate shot becomes more dominate.

Concentrate on managing sight alignment while pressing off shots from as smooth a moving platform as possible. And follow Mr_White's advice.

[Rex G]

Some conceptual food for thought: I am naturally left-handed, but right-armed; I write/draw/eat lefty, but throw righty. When I started considering a career in law enforcement, I had to choose which side would be my weapon side, and as drawing a big, heavy revolver from the then-mandated low-slung holster was a lot like an under-handed throw, that was one reason to consider carrying on the right side. (This preceded the ascendance of drawing to a High #2/pec, then extending the weapon.) The lack of left elbow room in the driver's seat of most vehicles also favored carrying on the right hip, and it felt more natural to lead with my left side when standing in a bladed stance, to keep my right hip farther from an opponent, so 0300 became my default carry position, and my right fingers/hand just had to "learn" to be, well, strong.

I will concede that my "weaker" right hand being attached to my "stronger" right arm had given me plenty of time to learn to be ambidextrous, but I must stress that I am not naturally ambidextrous, so learning trigger control with my clumsier right hand/fingers required much work. A bonus: My reloads, with magazines, has always been quite fast and well-coordinated, because my naturally more-skilled hand in handling the magazines; I have never felt the need to pay money for a mag well/guide.

I am certainly not any kind of expert, just sharing my experience of learning to shoot with my clumsier hand. I will concede that I did not grow up shooting, so started with a relatively clean slate.

[GJM]

How many inches are covered across the ground with this IDPA moving and shooting support hand only?

[LSW]

How many inches are covered across the ground with this IDPA moving and shooting support hand only?

As little as possible, the only rules about movement on the standards stages are that you have to be in constant motion and can't go past the fault line. The SO usually says something like "it's ok to move like grandpa on a bad day but you always need to have your feet moving, not stopping during shots". On longer distance stages sometimes people will try to take a giant step during their draw to get closer to the target by a couple of yards but I find that doing so messes up my draw to 1st shot time more than it benefits accuracy.

[GJM]

As little as possible, the only rules about movement on the standards stages are that you have to be in constant motion and can't go past the fault line. The SO usually says something like "it's ok to move like grandpa on a bad day but you always need to have your feet moving, not stopping during shots". On longer distance stages sometimes people will try to take a giant step during their draw to get closer to the target by a couple of yards but I find that doing so messes up my draw to 1st shot time more than it benefits accuracy.

I would assess the RO with a FTDR for that explanation. The shooter should compete like they fight.

[LSW]

I would assess the RO with a FTDR for that explanation. The shooter should compete like they fight.

Haha, yeah, I hear ya. I just play be the rules since it's more or less the only game in town, not sure I would ever advance on a real life threat if I was down to my WHO anyway, haha. That would probably get me killed....in the streetz.

[LSW]

I don't know much but I like what Gabe said. I would really emphasize working on WHO static. I would do walkback work both dry and live. Put up a 2" dot, start at 3 yards, and figure out what you have to do to guarantee a hit (while your sights are aligned with the target -- kentucky windaging a bad trigger pull is not a path forward). Watch the front sight and work the trigger. Once you're very confident in your ability to stay on the 2" at 3y, move back to 4, then 5, then push yourself at 7. Then go back to 3 and do it from the low ready under time pressure. Only then would I mess with going to a big target (IDPA -0 zone or a paper plate) and moving.

Thanks, I tried this yesterday and what I discovered is that my POI for weak hand had changed significantly from last time I really took a look at it. I now find myself consistently high left shooting who whereas last month it was all low right. This was true on targets out to 15 yards when trying to use the same sight picture as I would for a freestyle shot. Groups are centered roughly 6" high and 3" left of bullseye at 15 yards, WHO. Maybe I am heeling a little bit whereas last time I really checked my who slowfire I was shooting low right (jerking trigger).

[nwhpfan]

Unless I'm reading it wrong....

I'd shoot 6 on the move freestyle then do my reload.

THEN in P2 6 strong hand only, reload, 6 weak hand only. The stage description only says from P1 to P2 have to be moving.

[jthhapkido]

Unless I'm reading it wrong....

I'd shoot 6 on the move freestyle then do my reload.

THEN in P2 6 strong hand only, reload, 6 weak hand only. The stage description only says from P1 to P2 have to be moving.

Last part says "while retreating" for the last 6 shots.

I'd personally start with SHO 6 shots to the body while advancing, reload, 6 WHO to the body while stationary at the forward line, reload, then 6 to the head freestyle while backing up REALLY slowly. I'm pretty sure I can get 6 shots on the move to the head freestyle while only covering about 4 feet of space...and I'm starting from the closest point.



WHO-wise, regarding practice: Like someone said, treat it like a whole new skillset. In other words, treat it just like you treat getting good freestyle. If you short-change it (common example: Some people shoot the last 20 rounds of their practice with 10 rounds each SHO and WHO, and call that practice) then it isn't going to work. It really IS a new skillset, because you haven't trained that hand with that grip, alignment, and trigger control ever, and it isn't used to recoil control in that position by itself. For SHO, you have at least SOME practice at those things, but with WHO you really don't.

IMO, obviously.