38 Short Colt in a J Frame

[Eastex]

I thought about posting this in the ammo forum but I'm thinking purely for J Frame usage so here it goes. I've been reading up on 38 Short Colt which is basically a 9mm length 38 Special. (All just ballpark type measurements). From what I read some of the competition guys were using it at least until the 9mm competition revolvers started taking over in their 38 Special revolvers. The main advantage was faster reloads when using them in a moon clip from what I gathered. Other things I read mentioned being able to get higher pressures with less powder due to the shortened case and easier extraction than the longer Special cases.
Those things made me think of my moon clip cut 642. I don't like the moon clips because the rounds are so long that they "pinch in" at the ends and basically make Speed Strips much faster for me. I like the idea of the shorter rounds for that reason. Ejection would also seem to helped especially with the shorter J Frame ejection rod. 38 Short moon clips might even be able to use the new Rogers moon clip holders made for the 9 mm LCR.
The 9mm LCR also made me wonder about this. There is some data to show that the shorter 9mm round effectively increases barrel length in the LCR since the cylinder it used is basically the same length as the 357 magnum version of the LCR. This shows up in its being able to basically mimic the velocity in similar sized auto loaders despite the loss at the cylinder gap. So my thinking is that the difference between a 38 Special overall length and a 38 Short Colt overall length would effectively add to the barrel length in my 642 at least as far as velocity would be concerned. Velocity in those very short barrels seems to be key in getting penetration and hollow point expansion.
The big con to all of this is obviously that no one is making defensive type loads in 38 Short. Also there isn't any "certified" load data for hotter rounds, just lots of guys on the Internet posting their recipes. Still I find myself looking at Starline brass who makes very reputable stuff and they do make 38 Short Colt brass. I may just have to break down and get a chronograph and start playing around with it. I could always make some bunny fart practice rounds with I suppose.
If you could safely load it to get defensive round type velocities and if it was truly faster to reload with and if someone made commercially reliable rounds it could be another option. It could also be just a big case of ifs and buts.
Now comes the part where I ask y'all to point out the obvious holes in my thinking that I've overlooked.


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[Stephanie B]

Nobody is going to make hot-ish defense loads for .38 Short Colt because they would be worried about someone blowing up their 1880s low-budget revolver with one.

If you wanted to make bunny-fart loads, why not stick with .38 Special and Trail Boss?

[RevolverRob]

I guess I'm confused on what you really want the .38 Short Colt here. Is it because you have the moon-clip 642?

You can run the J without moon-clips, rights? If so, just run nickel-cased .38 special rounds. The short ejector rod of the J can case brass cases to stick, but I've never, in like some 2500-rounds of nickel cased defensive ammo, had the nickel cases stick in the chambers. They are a little slicker than brass and that just aids in extraction. Even in extended sessions where I've fired things like a couple of hundred dirty wadcutters and had to wipe the cylinder face and forcing cone or suffer bind, have I had issues with nickel-case extraction.

If you can't run the J without moonclips, just swap it for a 642 Enhanced Action model and call it a day.

Also, my understand on the short-colt loads is its a matter of speeding up reloads over any other reason. But maybe Caleb can chime in on this one, because I haven't done a lot of work with them.

[Lester Polfus]

I occasionally go down rabbit trails like this, and have spent lots of time and money chasing stuff like this.

I've learned to ask myself this question:

Would my time and money be better spent on x project, or on buying the equivalent $$ amount of practice ammo, and spending the equivalent amount of time drying firing/range practice.

Every now and then, my answer is "yes" but usually it's "no."

[Jim Watson]

There sure isn't any .38 Short Colt +P ammo or pressure tested load data out there.
But consider, if you want .38 Special +P ballistics out of a smaller case, it will have to run at higher pressure. Like, say 9mm P pressure, about a time and a half .38 +P.

[Eastex]

I occasionally go down rabbit trails like this, and have spent lots of time and money chasing stuff like this.


I like chasing rabbits, I hardly ever get as far as spending money. Westworlds season is done and until Santa (hopefully) brings me the new Frank Hamer book this is what I do while my wife watches Hallmark Christmas movies.



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[Malamute]

Ive been kicking around the idea of fooling with them also, but only as extra-light loads for fun shooting.

Reading on the castboolits site, they've been called "38 CBs" when used in rifles for yard plinking or pest loads, and great for letting beginners get their feet wet with centerfire 38 pistols or rifles. Someone mentioned their wife only liked shooting the 38 SC loads in her J. She'd load up with better stuff for leaving in the gun, but didn't like shooting heavier loads much. I think theyd probably be good for shooting in airweight guns for general shooting and practice.

[Velo Dog]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1657511908/magtech-sport-ammunition-38-special-short-125-grain-lead-round-nose

This Magtech round uses a short case to propel a 125 gr lead round nose at 686 fps for 130 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

[Eastex]

Getting off the revolver trail for a second, I'd love to find something along the lines of a old Stevens Crackshot that fired 38 Special. I've read where people have converted Martini Henry Cadets into 38 and that'd be great but it sounds like a pretty expensive "fun gun". Nothing against all the great lever actions out there, I'd just like to find something a little odd and different. 38 Special is such a easy and cheap round to reload it just seems like a shame not to have it in a rifle too.
One other thing about the SC that seemed appealing was how it would be almost impossible to double charge it. That regular Special case has tons of room in it and Trail Boss is the only thing that I've seen that will overfill it in a double charge.


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[RevolverRob]

Getting off the revolver trail for a second, I'd love to find something along the lines of a old Stevens Crackshot that fired 38 Special. I've read where people have converted Martini Henry Cadets into 38 and that'd be great but it sounds like a pretty expensive "fun gun". Nothing against all the great lever actions out there, I'd just like to find something a little odd and different. 38 Special is such a easy and cheap round to reload it just seems like a shame not to have it in a rifle too.
One other thing about the SC that seemed appealing was how it would be almost impossible to double charge it. That regular Special case has tons of room in it and Trail Boss is the only thing that I've seen that will overfill it in a double charge.


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T/C Contender?

Also they have an H&R HandiRifle in .357 Magnum - http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/handiRifle.asp

-R

[Malamute]

You weren't looking for a lever,...but I saw a nice older Navy Arms 38 spl 1866 rifle copy (octagon barrel) recently that looked like it would be a fun plinker. A bit heavy, but nice.

[Eastex]

I have thought about a Contender but that might be a slippery slope. I could see picking up all kinds of obscure barrels and dies if I owned one of those.


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[Eastex]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1657511908/magtech-sport-ammunition-38-special-short-125-grain-lead-round-nose

This Magtech round uses a short case to propel a 125 gr lead round nose at 686 fps for 130 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

Thanks for that link. There's even a few reviews from folks using them in their J Frames.


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[Hambo]

I have thought about a Contender but that might be a slippery slope. I could see picking up all kinds of obscure barrels and dies if I owned one of those.

It usually ends up that way. Even though I have a .357 barrel I found myself looking at a custom .38 barrel because...that's what you do when you have a Contender.

[mmc45414]

It usually ends up that way. Even though I have a .357 barrel I found myself looking at a custom .38 barrel because...that's what you do when you have a Contender.

I had an Encore, and you start convincing yourself a 17 Ackley Hornet would be really cool.

I sold mine but started browsing them again just the other day.

[Eastex]

I had an Encore, and you start convincing yourself a 17 Ackley Hornet would be really cool.


That's exactly what I'm afraid of! Ever since my friend/pusher gave me a old single stage reloading press I'm looking at all kinds of calibers I would have never thought twice about.


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[muddog13A]

A 38 Short Colt loaded with 4 grains of Universal and a 105 grain Semi wad cutter will clock in at about 1,000 + FPS..Fortunecookie45LC has a video on Youtube with them in a 6 inch Ruger Blackhawk, and the burn was better than a 38 spec factory load...Link follows..
https://youtu.be/lJJ3T2HgJiE..relativly low pressure and recoil. I'm pretty sure a j frame could use it, as could any solid frame revolver. :cool:

https://youtu.be/ybNbAds0-DI
[ chrono Results]

[Dave T]

You weren't looking for a lever,...but I saw a nice older Navy Arms 38 spl 1866 rifle copy (octagon barrel) recently that looked like it would be a fun plinker. A bit heavy, but nice.

When I lived in Tucson I had a friend who owned one of those. Every time he fired it it put a smile on his face. We used to go to the desert or mountains and bust rocks. He didn't bust many with his 66 but he loved to elevate the ladder rear sight and hit small boulders at 100+ yards.

Eastex, when I think of the 38 Short Colt or the 38 S&W I think of them as black powder rounds. I used to load a 38 S&W with that propellant and you can't stuff enough FFFg into that one, or probably the SC either, to over load it. That would be a hoot out of a J-frame...until you had to clean it. Then it gets messy.

Dave

[muddog13A]

When I lived in Tucson I had a friend who owned one of those. Every time he fired it it put a smile on his face. We used to go to the desert or mountains and bust rocks. He didn't bust many with his 66 but he loved to elevate the ladder rear sight and hit small boulders at 100+ yards.

Eastex, when I think of the 38 Short Colt or the 38 S&W I think of them as black powder rounds. I used to load a 38 S&W with that propellant and you can't stuff enough FFFg into that one, or probably the SC either, to over load it. That would be a hoot out of a J-frame...until you had to clean it. Then it gets messy.

Dave

AH..but for a connisuer, cleaning's half the fun...
MD13A

[Dave T]

I agree but it's dang hard to convince the uninitiated of that. (smiley face goes here)

Dave

[Duelist]

AH..but for a connisuer, cleaning's half the fun...
MD13A

If I’m going to have to go through the process of cleaning for BP, I’m going to be loading and shooting cap and ball, too.

[muddog13A]

Current stock includes a Falcon 38 special, 2 Uberti navies set for 38 Long Colt...all 3 will handle 38 SC...Reloads? BAH !


:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[muddog13A]

4 inch, 5.5 inch and 7.5 inch...day at the range, anyone ?543815438254383

[muddog13A]

Next Project..Krist Konverter for the 5 inch..
After that..maybe a Rossi 38/357 Lever..seen it on video handling 38 Long Colt SO...a rifle 3 pistols 1 ammo supply.
well, a fella can dream, right ?

[muddog13A]

A lot of folks knock a short Colt and it's 750 or so FPS speed, but let's put that in perspective.
we need a comparison as a lot of folks find Feet per second kinda hard to relate to.
Most everybody can relate to car speeds , however , so IF we convert:

https://www.inchcalculator.com/convert/foot-per-second-to-mile-per-hour/

We Get:

655 ft/s = 446.590909 mph [ I believe I saw that mentioned before..] then figure the average cruising speed around town is 40 MPH, this will hit the target at some 10.5 times the speed of a moving car. Anybody wanna argue with anything like that ?

I , also, don't really like the thoughts of hyper speed rounds for a possible self defense load... the Liability of shooting through a hostile and tagging a second person you did NOT intend to, raises serious concerns this day and age where a light load is a bit more defensible should you get dragged into court, and yet, with decent shot placement at an average [ FBI stat] of 7 yards, still get the job done.

Mind you..I still want a 4 grain universal powder with a 105 grain SWC load for the range..just to check the feel of it..

[muddog13A]

Liability.
655 FPS = 440+ MPH or 10.5 times the cruising speed of your car about town. Given THAT perspective, it's sometimes SAFER to avoid shooting THROUGH your target ad avoid hitting an unintended person behind them...Over penetration, at times , can be a pain.
For a defense load at 7 yards [ FBI STAT] that still oughtta get er done with good shot placement.

Oh and My falcon was a spring of 1968 build, not 1880's..a 38 Special , handles 38 SC.LC.and spec loads.
Fact is reloading Sc brass uses less resources, BUT has room for improvement,as fortunecookie45LC on Youtube demonstrates.
4 grains Universal , 105 grain [rather than 125] some 1,074 FPS, 732 MPH, [ 10 x Highway speed =/- ]
Not exactly a "bunny Fart" in my book...

Just 1 opinion.54390

[Stephanie B]

Liability.
655 FPS = 440+ MPH or 10.5 times the cruising speed of your car about town. Given THAT perspective, it's sometimes SAFER to avoid shooting THROUGH your target ad avoid hitting an unintended person behind them...Over penetration, at times , can be a pain.
For a defense load at 7 yards [ FBI STAT] that still oughtta get er done with good shot placement.

Comparisons between bullet velocity and automotive speed are irrelevant.

There are quite a few .38 Special self-defense rounds that have been extensively tested and don't overprenetrate.

[BehindBlueI's]

A lot of folks knock a short Colt and it's 750 or so FPS speed, but let's put that in perspective.
we need a comparison as a lot of folks find Feet per second kinda hard to relate to.
Most everybody can relate to car speeds , however , so IF we convert:

https://www.inchcalculator.com/convert/foot-per-second-to-mile-per-hour/

We Get:

655 ft/s = 446.590909 mph [ I believe I saw that mentioned before..] then figure the average cruising speed around town is 40 MPH, this will hit the target at some 10.5 times the speed of a moving car. Anybody wanna argue with anything like that ?

I , also, don't really like the thoughts of hyper speed rounds for a possible self defense load... the Liability of shooting through a hostile and tagging a second person you did NOT intend to, raises serious concerns this day and age where a light load is a bit more defensible should you get dragged into court, and yet, with decent shot placement at an average [ FBI stat] of 7 yards, still get the job done.

Mind you..I still want a 4 grain universal powder with a 105 grain SWC load for the range..just to check the feel of it..


Your automotive analogy is incredibly flawed and is useless to the conversation. Cars hitting people don't deflect off bones. Bullets do.

Please support your argument a light load is more defensible in court. Your experience in court would be preferable.

Please support your statement the FBI stat of a 7 yard average.

We figured out sufficient penetration without over penetration quite awhile ago. The trick was the controlled expansion of the projectile, or "barrier blind" ammunition.

[mtnbkr]

Rohm? Really?

Did I accidentally navigate saturday-night-special-forum.com by mistake?

Chris

[Lex Luthier]

Wow. "Unclear on the concept" really is more of a thing than I thought.

[muddog13A]

Your automotive analogy is incredibly flawed and is useless to the conversation. Cars hitting people don't deflect off bones. Bullets do.

Please support your argument a light load is more defensible in court. Your experience in court would be preferable.

Please support your statement the FBI stat of a 7 yard average.

We figured out sufficient penetration without over penetration quite awhile ago. The trick was the controlled expansion of the projectile, or "barrier blind" ammunition.

See Paul Hartnell's Youtube series. Bear in mind laws vary from state to state.
Experiences vary from Ohio, a CC state and west Virginia, an open carry state.
Statement is a general average.
https://youtu.be/Qw8IiRgSMFQ Over Pen in a City environment.
As For Bone Breaking...Autos do THROW people..breaking things. Lost a cousin to a motorcycle and a step son to a car that way.
Far as I am concerned , being able to imagine the speed at which a projectile may hit is INDEED a valuable thing.

[muddog13A]

See Paul Hartnell's Youtube series. Bear in mind laws vary from state to state.
Experiences vary from Ohio, a CC state and west Virginia, an open carry state.
Statement is a general average.
https://youtu.be/Qw8IiRgSMFQ Over Pen in a City environment.
As For Bone Breaking...Autos do THROW people..breaking things. Lost a cousin to a motorcycle and a step son to a car that way.
Far as I am concerned , being able to imagine the speed at which a projectile may hit is INDEED a valuable thing.

Took a moment to find it BUT: FBI study, Newhall case,1970. RE; PH.

https://youtu.be/9HXCMjZJRRw?list=PLpiu2Oc525H7P6NYD3nve11u8qmvqxMe e

[Stephanie B]

Far as I am concerned , being able to imagine the speed at which a projectile may hit is INDEED a valuable thing.

It is meaningless. Take, for example, a 158 grain bullet fired from a .38 at 900 FPS (613 MPH), compared to a 3,000 lb car moving at 60 MPH.

Assuming that I did all of the conversions correctly, the bullet has a kinetic energy of 450 Joules, the car has a kinetic energy of 471,000 Joules.

Therefore, comparing the speed of a handgun projectile to the speed of a car is nonsensical.

But what if we could fire the car from a gun? The weight of that car would be close to the weight of an AP projectile from a 16" naval rifle. As fired from a 16"/50 gun, that projectile's coming out with 355 million Joules of energy. If you reduced the powder charge to achieve handgun velocities, it would have a KE of 46 million Joules.

Which is why being around the spot where that 16" round was going to hit was a Very Bad Thing.

[BehindBlueI's]

See Paul Hartnell's Youtube series. Bear in mind laws vary from state to state.
Experiences vary from Ohio, a CC state and west Virginia, an open carry state.
Statement is a general average.
https://youtu.be/Qw8IiRgSMFQ Over Pen in a City environment.
As For Bone Breaking...Autos do THROW people..breaking things. Lost a cousin to a motorcycle and a step son to a car that way.
Far as I am concerned , being able to imagine the speed at which a projectile may hit is INDEED a valuable thing.


I have no idea who Paul Hartnell is. I'll make a bet I've presented more self-defense shootings to a prosecutor then he has, though. I guarantee we have members here who've been an expert witness in more trials then him. I guarantee we have attorneys who've tried more cases then him. I can pretty much also say that all of those folks will say your notion an underpowered cartridge is more palatable is misguided. If you meant Paul Harrell, I'd never heard of him until this: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41586-Paul-Harrell-s-Rebuttal and have no idea why I should listen to him.

You seem butt hurt that you were questioned. I got your message. Drama and whining aside, that's not how pistol-forum works.

Yes, if you give an opinion here you're expected to be able to back it up. This keeps the quality of information here high. That's be design. We want experts to teach and others to learn. We want experts to bounce ideas off each other. We do not want random bullshit with no basis being accepted as quality information. So, yes, if you post in technical threads expect to back it up.

Your posts clearly indicate you don't understand basic physics, the mechanics of wounding by handgun fired projectiles, or the role bullet selection plays. It's equally clear you have no experience or expertise in criminal or civil law. You can have an opinion on any of the topics. Don't expect it to be treated equally to those of people who do have experience and expertise in those roles. You should very much play a student role in these areas. There's a lot here to learn and make you a better shooter, a more informed carrier, etc. Stay or go, but whatever you decide you now understand what the expectations are here.

[revolvergeek]

I have a bag on my desk at work right now with 50 each of Starline .38 SC and LC. I have a friend here in town who is a huge fan of .38 s&w in the little revolvers and has spent a lot of time experimenting with handloading for it. His wife and daughters are very recoil and blast averse and .32 long and .38 S&W in older all steel snubbies were easy options for them. .38 S&W with its short, tapered case loads and ejects very easily in old i-frame and j-frame revolvers, but a lot of those guns are getting pretty old. That concern brought us to the idea of duplicating the same loads but in .38 SC brass that could be fired in more modern .38 spl revolvers. He loaded some based on Ken Water's Pet Loads for .38 S&W and they seemed too warm in 38 SC brass. As far as I know he abandoned the idea and just stuck with .38 S&W. I think that there is some potential there if you are willing to accept the idea of carrying handloads for defense, but as we know opinions vary widely on that topic. It should be easy enough to duplicate .38 special target wadcutter ballistics in them, with shorter brass for easier ejection from 2" guns. Personally I have not yet begun to play with it. I picked up a Colt 1871 Open Top replica in .38 Spl. so they may well just end up getting used for that so I don't ever run the risk of stressing that one.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have a bag on my desk at work right now with 50 each of Starline .38 SC and LC. I have a friend here in town who is a huge fan of .38 s&w in the little revolvers and has spent a lot of time experimenting with handloading for it. His wife and daughters are very recoil and blast averse and .32 long and .38 S&W in older all steel snubbies were easy options for them. .38 S&W with its short, tapered case loads and ejects very easily in old i-frame and j-frame revolvers, but a lot of those guns are getting pretty old. That concern brought us to the idea of duplicating the same loads but in .38 SC brass that could be fired in more modern .38 spl revolvers. He loaded some based on Ken Water's Pet Loads for .38 S&W and they seemed too warm in 38 SC brass. As far as I know he abandoned the idea and just stuck with .38 S&W. I think that there is some potential there if you are willing to accept the idea of carrying handloads for defense, but as we know opinions vary widely on that topic. It should be easy enough to duplicate .38 special target wadcutter ballistics in them, with shorter brass for easier ejection from 2" guns. Personally I have not yet begun to play with it. I picked up a Colt 1871 Open Top replica in .38 Spl. so they may well just end up getting used for that so I don't ever run the risk of stressing that one.

My Dad is using an old HEAVY Charter Arms in .38 S&W. His hands are so bad at this point he can't tolerate much jolt. He's using factory ammo. I am not a believer in using reloads for self-defense due to the civil side of things and narrative building, but situations vary. For example, my dad's a one legged old man in a wheelchair with multiple health concerns. Nobody's going to be able to paint him as a vigilante out for blood. For your friend, women get more leeway in narrative building, even if they are the aggressor they often get the presumption of victimhood if the other party is male. He deserved it, somehow. I don't know how financially well to do your friend is, but nobody is suing my dad. Blood, turnip, all that.

I'd say for the ladies in question, it's better than nothing if they'll carry that or nothing...

[Dagga Boy]

Rohm? Really?

Did I accidentally navigate saturday-night-special-forum.com by mistake?

Chris

No you didn’t. I started deleting and have decided to not waste my time. This one is done. Take it back up on the Rohm forum or .38 Short Colt forum.