Fears over Trump's Nato Policy

[Joe in PNG]

Fears over how US President-elect Trump sees Nato's future (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38258052)


Donald Trump's policies "could spell the beginning of the end" of Nato, a senior former field commander for the alliance has told Newsnight.

After all the years people in Europe have wanted to US to stop with the overseas adventurism, they're finally about to get their wish. And they don't seem to like it.

I find this quite ironic and funny, but probably shouldn't.

[RoyGBiv]

Yep..

[1slow]

USA is the only reason Europe is not speaking German or Russian, and they love to forget that and shit on us.

[Tabasco]

USA is the only reason Europe is not speaking German or Russian, and they love to forget that and shit on us.

And the reason most gutted their military... I think only France and Britain have any ability to do anything beyond defending their borders.

[GardoneVT]

Fuck NATO.

Next time European liberals want to play world police,they'll have to do it without American blood and machinery. Were it up to me the only US boots on foreign soil would be ones "putting in work",but that's a rant I'll save for later.

[Poconnor]

They can defend their borders? They couldn't even control a horde of refugees at their borders. But since the USA isn't controlling our borders I guess I shouldn't criticize

[JHC]

Based on campaign rhetoric this might have been plausible but with the national security team he's assembling I doubt there will be any problems in this regard.

It's seems that Trump says stuff for whatever "messaging" he is currently pursuing but he seems to be able to listen to SMEs so far. I despise the guy mind you.

[11B10]

Based on campaign rhetoric this might have been plausible but with the national security team he's assembling I doubt there will be any problems in this regard.

It's seems that Trump says stuff for whatever "messaging" he is currently pursuing but he seems to be able to listen to SMEs so far. I despise the guy mind you.

But you're coming around, I can tell.

[JHC]

But you're coming around, I can tell.

I've always seen that he can be charming. I have my biases and half of them are rolled up in him. :D

[11B10]

I've always seen that he can be charming. I have my biases and half of them are rolled up in him. :D



Whether we care to admit or not, we all have biases. Trump's "charm" is an acquired taste, which took me quite a while to see. We all should, if we haven't already, get past the "hold your nose and pull the lever" phase with the Donald. I had posted previously that the lights started going on for me after my wife and I started working at his local phone bank. We frequently conversed with folks who had spent time with President-Elect Trump (geez, I love that!) and they were contagious. Their "positivity" rubbed off on us and we became convinced, as far back as August, that not only COULD he win, he WOULD win. Their sheer energy, the likes of which I hadn't felt since Reagan, transferred to us. As I used to say many years ago: "What a rush!" To date, I don't see how ANY right-thinking American can disagree with any of the people he's chosen. As for NATO, there are simply better ways in the current age.

[JHC]

Whether we care to admit or not, we all have biases. Trump's "charm" is an acquired taste, which took me quite a while to see. We all should, if we haven't already, get past the "hold your nose and pull the lever" phase with the Donald. I had posted previously that the lights started going on for me after my wife and I started working at his local phone bank. We frequently conversed with folks who had spent time with President-Elect Trump (geez, I love that!) and they were contagious. Their "positivity" rubbed off on us and we became convinced, as far back as August, that not only COULD he win, he WOULD win. Their sheer energy, the likes of which I hadn't felt since Reagan, transferred to us. As I used to say many years ago: "What a rush!" To date, I don't see how ANY right-thinking American can disagree with any of the people he's chosen. As for NATO, there are simply better ways in the current age.

What's done is done and I am rooting for him to be a kick ass success. And modern science has not yet devised a method to measure the awesomeness of seeing the House of Clinton come crashing down so there is that too.

He'll cruise with getting Mattis, Flynn and Kelly confirmed. I hope he can hang onto his EPA nominee. That's where the Dem's final protective fire seems to be pointed.

[Wobblie]

USA is the only reason Europe is not speaking German or Russian, and they love to forget that and shit on us.

Actually, the Russians are the reason Europe doesn't speak German and the U.S. Is the reason Germany doesn't speak Russian. No one has forgotten that. How have they shit on us? Sure we pick up a disproportionate share of NATO costs but it appears to have been a good investment. I'd hate to see The Trumpster throw that investment away.

[GardoneVT]

Actually, the Russians are the reason Europe doesn't speak German and the U.S. Is the reason Germany doesn't speak Russian. No one has forgotten that. How have they shit on us? Sure we pick up a disproportionate share of NATO costs but it appears to have been a good investment. I'd hate to see The Trumpster throw that investment away.

NATO became a military welfare agreement the moment the Warsaw Pact ended.

Having allies is one thing.Being obligated to fight their battles is another matter. We've been a rather interventionist nation of late,and it's a policy I believe needs to be round filed ASAP.

[Lon]

I have no problems telling the NATO members it's time to pony up and meet their financial obligations. Only 5 countries are doing so. The rest are taking advantage of us and the members who have met their obligations.

[TGS]

I think NATO will have an important role in the developing north pole energy situation.

I think the prospect of the US leaving NATO would scare the shit out of Europe due to this situation.

I think that will lead Europe to make it worthwhile to the US, not to mention Canada's involvement and need of support. If Trump pulls out of NATO, Canada will import IAs by the shipload and set them free across the northern border as retribution once "the wall" is built.

[rauchman]

I think NATO will have an important role in the developing north pole energy situation.

I think the prospect of the US leaving NATO would scare the shit out of Europe due to this situation.

I think that will lead Europe to make it worthwhile to the US, not to mention Canada's involvement and need of support. If Trump pulls out of NATO, Canada will import IAs by the shipload and set them free across the northern border as retribution once "the wall" is built.

North pole energy situation?

[RevolverRob]

Well, to piss on everyone's "Fuck NATO" parade. Trump isn't going to do dick about NATO, period.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is based on the signed and ratified by Senate supermajority, version of the North Atlantic Treaty.

And last time I checked the U.S. Constitution - While it was chiefly the job of POTUS to negotiate treaties and submit them to the Senate for review. It was still, the responsibility and the power of Congress to dissolve treaties and the power of the Senate with a supermajority to confirm treaties.

There are two precedents for POTUS-driven unilateral withdraw from treaties (one by Carter and one by Bush II). Both of those were relatively minor treaties in scope by comparison with NAT. And in neither case did Congress move to stop the withdraw, which they almost certainly would in the case of NAT.

NATO isn't going anywhere, full stop. If Trump thinks otherwise, he is a fool. But if he is doing what I think he is, he's using the threat of US withdrawl to increase the responsibility of other NATO-member nations, I'm full on in support of this approach. But there's no way the US doesn't continue to keep NATO around. It's now our oldest and most powerful alliance organization and provides significant resources in many logistical ways.

[BaiHu]

This^^
Too many still fail to see that Trump is a master negotiator. What people see as bluster, IMO, is a sucker punch to start his negotiations.

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[TGS]

North pole energy situation?

The Arctic Ocean has a lot of energy reserves that historically have been difficult to access, but that appears to be changing.

Russia is contesting territory with Norway, at the very least. Maybe others, can't remember.

Russia is moving troops into the Arctic Ocean and establishing outposts as a way of forcefully staking their claim.

It doesn't get as much play in the news as China expanding their territory. It's going to be a major issue that we are currently ignoring as Russia digs their roots deep. With the brewing internal strife in Saudi Arabia having potential to disrupt oil supply (King Salman having pretty much committed a silent coup, defying written decrees and long-standing power-sharing traditions, and their reliance on fear of Iran keeping the House of Saud united), just imagine how big of a powder keg the Arctic Ocean will be.

I'm entirely convinced that the reason we aren't converting wholesale to renewable clean energy isn't a matter of rich greedy old white guys lining their pockets at the expense of the environment, but rather an issue of keeping international peace (See the awesome Norwegian TV show Occupied).

ETA: Sorry, I know I went on a bit of a rant, there.

[Jeep]

My guess is that the reason that we aren't committing to renewable clean energy is because much of it is basically a fraud (biodiesel, for example, is anything but clean and takes more energy to produce than it produces in turn), and the rest of it (solar, wind) is unreliable and requires a huge amount of back up generation in case the "green" sources go down--which make them much less green.

Wind and solar have a few economic uses, but basically the technology isn't there yet. Natural gas remains the cleanest and most efficient fuel, and luckily we have a lot of that (and so do the Norwegians).

[Peally]

But but but he's gonna do everything he said. He's gonna build a wall!

[GardoneVT]

Well, to piss on everyone's "Fuck NATO" parade. Trump isn't going to do dick about NATO, period.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization is based on the signed and ratified by Senate supermajority, version of the North Atlantic Treaty.

And last time I checked the U.S. Constitution - While it was chiefly the job of POTUS to negotiate treaties and submit them to the Senate for review. It was still, the responsibility and the power of Congress to dissolve treaties and the power of the Senate with a supermajority to confirm treaties.

There are two precedents for POTUS-driven unilateral withdraw from treaties (one by Carter and one by Bush II). Both of those were relatively minor treaties in scope by comparison with NAT. And in neither case did Congress move to stop the withdraw, which they almost certainly would in the case of NAT.

NATO isn't going anywhere, full stop. If Trump thinks otherwise, he is a fool. But if he is doing what I think he is, he's using the threat of US withdrawl to increase the responsibility of other NATO-member nations, I'm full on in support of this approach. But there's no way the US doesn't continue to keep NATO around. It's now our oldest and most powerful alliance organization and provides significant resources in many logistical ways.
We can provide logistical support without being hog tied to foreign security issues. See Israel,which would have collapsed in 1973 had we not backed their frontline war with military logistics support.

This departs the realm of "probable statecraft decisions", but the US of A has meddled too long in foreign spats and disputes. Us humans are a violent and power hungry lot, and even the biggest guns on the planet can only do so much to stop that. Sending US servicepeople into battle should never be a political card to play for the benefit of a foreign government.

NATO served a purpose, one that ended with the Warsaw Pact. This is one area where Trump isn't going far enough in my estimation. . Call it isolationist,call it whatever you like. Maybe foreign governments friendly and not will appreciate American assistance that much more if it's earned,not given.

[TDA]

I feel like pretty much everything I read about Trump in the press is basically the author projecting the old Jungian shadow. This is a true pants wetting fear festival. The establishment left and right media outlets claim Trump will do all sorts of stuff that Freddy Kreuger would be hard pressed to pull off in a lifetime of nightmares. I doubt it.

[Peally]

I feel like pretty much everything I read about Trump in the press is basically the author projecting the old Jungian shadow. This is a true pants wetting fear festival. The establishment left and right media outlets claim Trump will do all sorts of stuff that Freddy Kreuger would be hard pressed to pull off in a lifetime of nightmares. I doubt it.

And the dopes on ARFCOM would be doing the exact same thing if Hillary got elected. This was an election of extremes with retards on both sides.

[BaiHu]

My guess is that the reason that we aren't committing to renewable clean energy is because much of it is basically a fraud (biodiesel, for example, is anything but clean and takes more energy to produce than it produces in turn), and the rest of it (solar, wind) is unreliable and requires a huge amount of back up generation in case the "green" sources go down--which make them much less green.

Wind and solar have a few economic uses, but basically the technology isn't there yet. Natural gas remains the cleanest and most efficient fuel, and luckily we have a lot of that (and so do the Norwegians).
And forget talking about nuclear options with the envirotards (I'm a conservationist with everything). They want us to be exactly like France yet neglect how France creates energy. Inconvenient Truth.

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