Carry comps

[SLG]

To bring back an old name and discuss this pistol accessory...

Does anyone have any experience with the Agency Arms comp? The KKM does so little that I have a hard time imagining that the AA does much, but I have never used it.

Are there any other carry comps out there now that are popular or meant for glocks or other duty type weapons?

[Hizzie]

Interesting since the "Roland Special" is all the rage currently.

[SLG]

Interesting since the "Roland Special" is all the rage currently.

Did you miss all the drama I started?

[DocGKR]

In the timed and scored tests we did, KKM compensated G19's were demonstrably quicker and tighter shooting than otherwise identical non-compensated G19's, for example:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15746-Week-108-GM-Test (post #17)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15590-Week-106-Three-Bills (post #7)

[busdriver]

I don't mean to be an ass, but what's your experience with comp'd pistols? I certainly had misconceptions about them before I went full-retard and impulse bought my first open gun.

You won't find one that has a dramatic effect, shooting duty ammo, fits in normal holsters, and with the gun still functioning with the stock recoil spring.

[SPDGG]

fwiw:
COMP "Needs" gas . . . ammo choice can/does make a difference with how much a comp will work

Reloads: something like Power Pistol under a 115 grain would do the trick w/ a lighter # recoil spring or factory: NATO pressure, +P min. rounds

I like the concept & sure anything helps w/ the slight added weight and comp effect but open gun setups are what they are for a reason: compressed 9mm Major, 9x21, 38 Super . . . More gas, more blast chambers = less felt

IMHO:
- Shooter mod makes the bestest difference . . . . give "me" a decked out Roland Special & I'll show you how slow it can be . . . . give it to "AsianJedi" & see it's full potential

[Hizzie]

Did you miss all the drama I started?

I guess so.

[SLG]

I guess so.

Good, skip it.

Since then, some of us have been trying to figure out exactly how much of an aid some things are, namely comps, mag wells, mrds. I started looking at splits with the KKM comp vs. a stock gun. I'd seen the AA comp before, but never used one. Hence this thread.

[Jackdog]

I guess so.

Me too. Busy training with Jerry Wetzel of Red Zone Prime.


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[GJM]

This would be a fun way to find out:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/carry-comp/

[Matt O]

This would be an expensive way to find out:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/carry-comp/

Fixed.


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[LOKNLOD]

Similarly, STI has something, I think it's the Costa carry comp. (having trouble with a good link from my phone here). 2011 with sight tracker comp setup (like the Agency Arms NOC).

[YVK]

Seems like AA comp is only available within a $3,000 Glock project? Is Agency Arms a part of Wilson Combat?

[JCS]

Similarly, STI has something, I think it's the Costa carry comp. (having trouble with a good link from my phone here). 2011 with sight tracker comp setup (like the Agency Arms NOC).

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161205/be7ed6cd14aa939cbfd9b06b0dc7e6ae.jpg
STI Costa carry comp

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161205/a90190d1ba89589bd57a7af831d81300.jpg
Agency arms noc

Could someone explain why the sights are on the barrel/comp?

Also, I've seen a few different glock barrel makers tease new comps on Instagram. Voodoo posted one from blackrifleco.

[EVP]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161205/be7ed6cd14aa939cbfd9b06b0dc7e6ae.jpg
STI Costa carry comp

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161205/a90190d1ba89589bd57a7af831d81300.jpg
Agency arms noc

Could someone explain why the sights are on the barrel/comp?

Also, I've seen a few different glock barrel makers tease new comps on Instagram. Voodoo posted one from blackrifleco.



It's supposed to help in tracking the sight easier/faster because the front sight is not reciprocating.

[LOKNLOD]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161205/be7ed6cd14aa939cbfd9b06b0dc7e6ae.jpg
STI Costa carry comp

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161205/a90190d1ba89589bd57a7af831d81300.jpg
Agency arms noc

Could someone explain why the sights are on the barrel/comp?

Also, I've seen a few different glock barrel makers tease new comps on Instagram. Voodoo posted one from blackrifleco.

Thanks dude.

By putting the sights on a surface that doesn't reciprocate, the intent is that the front sight is easier to track during recoil cycle. Similar, in principle at least, to the advantage you've got with a frame-mounted MRDS vs slide mounted.

[busdriver]

I was pondering this thread while bored at the movies....

I suppose I should expand on my own misconceptions I mentioned rather than just through that out like an asshole. I had been shooting a slide ride dot for a couple months prior to getting into open and even then I screwed around with a crappy .40 open thing I cobbled together first. So I was familiar with the dot but I think I was expecting my first real open gun to shoot super flat with the dot never leaving the glass with basically no effort on my part. Turns out it doesn't work that way. You still need to grip the shit out of the gun, it's just that the dot returns much faster and more predictably than without the comp. It obviously reduces recoil, but it doesn't make it airsoft.

But anyways, this discussion reminded me of a old ass IPSC video, in it Rob Leatham is interviewed talking about comps. He basically said you had to choose between soft or flat, but you couldn't have both. The comps back then looked a lot like a carry comp. There isn't much gas (volume or muzzle pressure) to work with on a .45 (.38 super, improved powders and ramped barrels eventually changed that) so a flat comp had the baffles angled forward, a soft comp had a vertical baffle. The limited gas meant more chambers didn't really help at all.

Here's a crappy pic I scrounged of an old IPSC open comp in .38super, you can just see the forward angle in the front portion of the port.
12137

From pictures, it looks like most of the carry comps of the type you guys are talking about are of the "soft" variety.

[Luke]

www.openpistol-forum.com

[Poconnor]

I seem to remember there was also a desire to get the front sight out as far as possible for a longer sight radius. I fondly remember stopping off at behlerts shop to look at the carry comps

[jetfire]

www.openpistol-forum.com

That should be "welfareopenpistol-forum"


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[JHC]

In the timed and scored tests we did, KKM compensated G19's were demonstrably quicker and tighter shooting than otherwise identical non-compensated G19's,

Counting myself, my KKM barrel with comp has gone 4 for 4 improving "good" shooters in speed and accuracy oriented drills at 7 and 10 yards. "Good" meaning they can print 25 yard offhand groups 4" or better with their 19s and are competitive at D2 to a 3X5 at 7 yds in the 2.0 - 2.5 sec range and can shoot the Test clean in standard. So this population are not world beaters but good shooters.

Improvements of required hits of roughly 10-12%. Is that significant? I really have no idea. It's a grin inducing load of fun though. Sometimes even giggling.
Less capable shooters seemed to like it even more but I wasn't running them on measured drills.

I can easily imagine the level of shooter that puts up equal numbers with a G17 and G22 might not see the difference.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Are all or any of the available options optimized for reducing muzzle rise/encouraging flatter tracking? Or are most comps we see of a general purpose, rise and recoil reduction, sort of bent?

I would be interested in something specifically optimized for flatter shooting, as I don't have any complaints about Glock recoil impulse.

I'm asking because I'm no engineer or gas-physics expert. Are the side ports doing much or anything for this purpose, or are they wasting potentially harnessed energy that could be put towards reducing muzzle rise here?

[orionz06]

The Agency NOC is probably one of the best ideas (in theory) to happen to carry Glocks since the Gadget. I'd really love to shoot one and at one point woulda bought sight unseen but $3000 is just a bit beyond what I wanna spend on a Glock, especially with all the milling that adds no value to me.


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[OnionsAndDragons]

The Agency NOC is probably one of the best ideas (in theory) to happen to carry Glocks since the Gadget. I'd really love to shoot one and at one point woulda bought sight unseen but $3000 is just a bit beyond what I wanna spend on a Glock, especially with all the milling that adds no value to me.


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Yeah... It is smoking-hawt-awesome; I just find it impossible to believe it is better than $2500 more in ammo and training classes for basically anyone.

They build a $500-1000 slide with the setup ready to rock, and I might reconsider that viewpoint. :)

[shane45]

Im all for challenging conventional wisdom. But let me wade back into the waters and do a wisdom check as its been over a decade and a half since I discussed the topic of a carry comp. I was under the impression that it was considered more of a liability than an aid. In certain calibers the comp can become an aid to shooting. But the possibility of firing from a compromised position such as a hands on situation, you didn't want to have to worry about what direction the comp may be pointed if you had to fire in that type of situation. I mean I love the idea of a 1911 in 9x23 with a comp! But I always thought the concern had merit.

[rob_s]

Im all for challenging conventional wisdom. But let me wade back into the waters and do a wisdom check as its been over a decade and a half since I discussed the topic of a carry comp. I was under the impression that it was considered more of a liability than an aid. In certain calibers the comp can become an aid to shooting. But the possibility of firing from a compromised position such as a hands on situation, you didn't want to have to worry about what direction the comp may be pointed if you had to fire in that type of situation. I mean I love the idea of a 1911 in 9x23 with a comp! But I always thought the concern had merit.

those who do not know history are destined to repeat it.

[orionz06]

I do believe this much has been addressed and tried with a few different entangled/retention shooting positions and deemed not an issue.


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[Paul Sharp]

I do believe this much has been addressed and tried with a few different entangled/retention shooting positions and deemed not an issue.


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I shot a 23c from the 2 once... Once.

[orionz06]

I shot a 23c from the 2 once... Once.

The compensated barrels aren't too good, especially with the jackets shredding off.

[Mr_White]

Having been turned away from compensated barrels a long long time ago because do-not-want-gases-or-particles-in-the-face-from-the-two, I didn't know there was any difference in that regard between compensated barrels and compensators. Is there a difference in how much gas/particles they send toward the user's head when shooting from the two/retention?

[BillSWPA]

Having been turned away from compensated barrels a long long time ago because do-not-want-gases-or-particles-in-the-face-from-the-two, I didn't know there was any difference in that regard between compensated barrels and compensators. Is there a difference in how much gas/particles they send toward the user's head when shooting from the two/retention?

As a followup to the above question, I was taught to shoot from 2 with the hand oriented roughly 45 degrees from vertical towards palm up. To what extent, if any, does that impact the hot gases and particles to the face issue?

[El Cid]

As a followup to the above question, I was taught to shoot from 2 with the hand oriented roughly 45 degrees from vertical towards palm up. To what extent, if any, does that impact the hot gases and particles to the face issue?

That's how I shoot from retention (to avoid the slide contacting me and causing a malfunction). Many years ago I shot a G17C from position 2 and regretted it. The factory comped Glocks have the ports at a 45 ornso degree angle.

I haven't shot a Roland Special but am intrigued.

[SLG]

I think there are people who think that shooting ported guns from retention is an overblown issue. Maybe for them it is, idk.

The point here is not whether that is an issue or not, but rather how effective the comp is in controlling recoil.

I find the KKM compt to definitely help me shoot faster splits, but more importantly, it helps me shoot tighter groups at speed. These differences are pretty small for me, but they are there nonetheless. The question is how will the AA comp compare? I assume it is less effective, but I have no real idea.

[Mr_White]

The point here is not whether that is an issue or not, but rather how effective the comp is in controlling recoil.

To me, viability from the 2 is prerequisite to recoil even being a consideration. If I can't shoot it from the 2 safely, then aiding recoil control is pretty much irrelevant.

[farscott]

I am one of those people who find shooting a ported gun from retention is not that big of a deal. In my case, it is a three-inch SP-101 with the Weigand "Tame the Beast" package or the same work done by Marc Morganti of Gemini Customs. I have lots of rounds, including a fair number from retention, through a few of them with no issues with jacket material or powder burns. It is less bothersome that the barrel/cylinder gap spitting on the same guns.

[SLG]

I am one of those people who find shooting a ported gun from retention is not that big of a deal. In my case, it is a three-inch SP-101 with the Weigand "Tame the Beast" package or the same work done by Marc Morganti of Gemini Customs. I have lots of rounds, including a fair number from retention, through a few of them with no issues with jacket material or powder burns. It is less bothersome that the barrel/cylinder gap spitting on the same guns.

Does it concern you that any of that stuff can get in your eyes, or is it something you could shoot 100 times in a row from a proper 2 and not worry in the least?

[busdriver]

The question is how will the AA comp compare? I assume it is less effective, but I have no real idea.

That's going to depend on the load you're shooting. The extra chamber on the KKM is going to be less of an advantage with faster powders/smaller charges. Baffle spacing matters as well, but they look to be roughly similar. I'd assume the smaller comp would be better suited to heavier bullets, or at least that would minimize the disadvantage.

ETA: KKM parts got here. I shot it alongside a gamer SP-01 Shadow with a dot on top. I didn't do anything extensive, but shooting at 7 yards at a USPSA metric target I was speed limited by how fast I could run the trigger in both cases. I was working harder with the CZ and the group was bigger, I just couldn't make the Glock shoot faster. Shooting at dots at that distance, the comped gun was faster.

[DocGKR]

We have had no problems shooting KKM compensated G19's from retention; the same could NOT be said for shooting the G19c in the same fashion...

[SLG]

That's going to depend on the load you're shooting. The extra chamber on the KKM is going to be less of an advantage with faster powders/smaller charges. Baffle spacing matters as well, but they look to be roughly similar. I'd assume the smaller comp would be better suited to heavier bullets, or at least that would minimize the disadvantage.

So with 9mm major (as an example), the slower burning powders should make the KKM more effective than the AA. Right?

[busdriver]

So with 9mm major (as an example), the slower burning powders should make the KKM more effective than the AA. Right?
Basically, yes. I'm guessing 124g +P would be better in the KKM, but standard pressure 147s would probably be very similar.

However, the KKM comp would blow at 9mm major velocities, it's just not big enough to take advantage of the available gas. As an exmaple, here's a picture of two open comps and the KKM:
12153

The comp on the left is a CZ czechmate comp with all vertical baffles, the middle one is a Cheely design with the baffle on the first chamber slightly angled forward to push the muzzle down, then the little KKM.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I would REALLY love to have a Unity Tactical Atom slide with an Agency NOC installed. That might actually make me want to keep my Glock 19.

[farscott]

Does it concern you that any of that stuff can get in your eyes, or is it something you could shoot 100 times in a row from a proper 2 and not worry in the least?

Good question. Never tried more than a few cylinders at a time in a session.

Never any issues though, even shooting without eyeglasses. Had more issues with my thumb and the barrel/cylinder gap. That seems to be much more dangerous. The Weigand port system has multiple holes in the barrel and the gas pressure seems much less.

[SLG]

Basically, yes. I'm guessing 124g +P would be better in the KKM, but standard pressure 147s would probably be very similar.

However, the KKM comp would blow at 9mm major velocities, it's just not big enough to take advantage of the available gas. As an exmaple, here's a picture of two open comps and the KKM:

The comp on the left is a CZ czechmate comp with all vertical baffles, the middle one is a Cheely design with the baffle on the first chamber slightly angled forward to push the muzzle down, then the little KKM.

Makes sense to me. I never thought the KKM would be big enough for true major stuff, but it does so little for minor stuff as well, that it doesn't seem worth it to me. In that regard, I assumed the AA would do even less. I will have to try some 115 +p+ just for fun, but I never shoot that stuff, so it is not very applicable. I've shot some open guns that seemed to have negative recoil, though those were older designs and not the current trend of porting in the barrel and the comp.

[JHC]

Makes sense to me. I never thought the KKM would be big enough for true major stuff, but it does so little for minor stuff as well, that it doesn't seem worth it to me. In that regard, I assumed the AA would do even less. I will have to try some 115 +p+ just for fun, but I never shoot that stuff, so it is not very applicable. I've shot some open guns that seemed to have negative recoil, though those were older designs and not the current trend of porting in the barrel and the comp.

"Little" to someone who finds 17s and 22s interchangeable. ;)

[SLG]

"Little" to someone who finds 17s and 22s interchangeable. ;)

Fair enough. I've always maintained that a comp helps less for people with better recoil control. Mine really isn't that good, but Ernest's is really good. He thought the comp didn't make much difference, so that may be the factor here.

For the record, I do see a difference between 9 and 40, just not a very big difference. On a FAST drill, the 22 will add about .2 to my time compared to the 17. Same with the comp. It helps me, but just not very much. For me at this point, the dot offers me the most benefit, though the comp/magwell and flashlight do add something.

I was shooting USPSA with Dave Sevigney about 10 years ago, and he broke out a nice Jo-Jo's custom 1911 after the match to play with. His times were basically identical with the 9mm 34 or the 1911 45. He, like Ernie and Mike Seeklander, has really excellent recoil control. he said the difference between the guns and calibers was that he had to work much harder to get the 45 under control, so it was more fatiguing and required more effort and concentration to shoot as well as the 34. I find that to be sort of true for me, but I don't get quite the same results, regardless of effort. I'm loathe to blame my body for much, but I think my hand size and weight compared to those guys may be a factor.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

So has anyone here actually shot a NOC???

I am also skeptical of its effectiveness due to the small size and single port design. However I really like the fact that it makes a Glock 19 only Glock 17 length, or theoretically a 17 ->34 length. Couplenthat with a low profile light such as an XC1 or an APL and you have a pretty trick CC setup.

I also very large hands (XXL) and my brand new Gen 4 19s are just sitting in the safe and I am carrying my Gen 3 17. So a 17 with a product like the NOC makes sense to me because it gives me a 34 length pistol, same as the current popular Roland configuration, but with a more useable grip length (for me).

[BN]

A higher pressure cartridge will work better through a comp than a lower pressure one, but there is enough gas to make some effect on a .45. I have an old single stack .45 comp gun and it is much softer shooting than 5 inch.

[Lester Polfus]

Regarding ported barrels vs. actual compensators in regards to getting shit blown in your face and eyes, I think the fact that all the compensators I've seen have a sort of expansion chamber in them makes a big difference.

I have shot both a Glock 23c, and a compensated .45 ACP Officers Model (don't make fun, I was young and dumb) from "the 2" I found the Officers Model much less obnoxious even with Corbon 185 grain rounds (see above about young and dumb). But they are also two different rounds when it comes to pressure, so it may not be a valid comparison.

[SLG]

So has anyone here actually shot a NOC???
.


It appears not, which was my interest in asking from the beginning. Of course, at $3000 a comp, I guess you can't blame them. GJM told me has 3 of them somewhere, but just can't find them right now.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

It appears not, which was my interest in asking from the beginning. Of course, at $3000 a comp, I guess you can't blame them. GJM told me has 3 of them somewhere, but just can't find them right now.

I envision GJM's gun storage room to be like the warehouse at the at the end of Indiana Jones where they stored the ark of the covenant.

[busdriver]

I never thought the KKM would be big enough for true major stuff, but it does so little for minor stuff as well, that it doesn't seem worth it to me.
It definitely ran flatter with the hot 115 (some stupid N340 load that I screwed up and didn't feel like pulling) loads I tried, but it was also starting to get loud and blasty like an open gun. It would be horrible shooting indoors without hearing protection.

I tend to think the primary benefit is more consistent dot behavior, there's not much in the way of recoil with a 9mm at these velocities anyways.

[SLG]

It definitely ran flatter with the hot 115 (some stupid N340 load that I screwed up and didn't feel like pulling) loads I tried, but it was also starting to get loud and blasty like an open gun. It would be horrible shooting indoors without hearing protection.

I tend to think the primary benefit is more consistent dot behavior, there's not much in the way of recoil with a 9mm at these velocities anyways.

That's what i find as well, except my dot use seems to be different from many others. I don't care if it leaves the window, it always re appears exactly where I expect, ready for the next shot. The comp reduces how much travel the dot has, and I can shoot again sooner. Just not much sooner, as of my last trial. We'll see what this weekend brings.

[busdriver]

Fair enough. I've always maintained that a comp helps less for people with better recoil control.
Sorry, should have combined these, guess I suck at forums. I think it all comes down to the target distance/size and your current limiting factor. If you're already shooting as fast as you can physically pull the trigger and getting acceptable hits, putting a comp on the gun won't change anything.

ETA: I also think lots of open shooters spend too much time fucking around with loads and comps seeking some magical flat shooting gun with no recoil instead of gripping the shit out of the gun. I'm only a year into open, but I'm noticing that the all the good shooters seem to have flat guns. Hmmm

[BillSWPA]

We have had no problems shooting KKM compensated G19's from retention; the same could NOT be said for shooting the G19c in the same fashion...

Important information for anyone selecting a compensated gun for carry. Thanks!

[JHC]

Fair enough. I've always maintained that a comp helps less for people with better recoil control. Mine really isn't that good, but Ernest's is really good. He thought the comp didn't make much difference, so that may be the factor here.

For the record, I do see a difference between 9 and 40, just not a very big difference. On a FAST drill, the 22 will add about .2 to my time compared to the 17. Same with the comp. It helps me, but just not very much. For me at this point, the dot offers me the most benefit, though the comp/magwell and flashlight do add something.

I was shooting USPSA with Dave Sevigney about 10 years ago, and he broke out a nice Jo-Jo's custom 1911 after the match to play with. His times were basically identical with the 9mm 34 or the 1911 45. He, like Ernie and Mike Seeklander, has really excellent recoil control. he said the difference between the guns and calibers was that he had to work much harder to get the 45 under control, so it was more fatiguing and required more effort and concentration to shoot as well as the 34. I find that to be sort of true for me, but I don't get quite the same results, regardless of effort. I'm loathe to blame my body for much, but I think my hand size and weight compared to those guys may be a factor.

Yeah, I was tracking that we weren't talking mathematically identical but very slight difference. There is another forum member here who I have shot with that is like that. It's all relative. I thought I had a good handle on this back in my youthful 1911 shooting in the 80's but running that .45 is like bronco busting for me now. So I see a fair bit of advantage with the KKM. And as you say, its not like my splits are much faster but my accuracy at my comfortably full speed is improved. Not long ago, having not attempted El Prez for quite some months I shot probably my best El Prez balancing time and hits with a 7.73 and just one close Charlie. Since I was not really grooved on the reload and transitions optimally I think the comp made most of diff.

[YVK]

I don't know how pistols work so bear with a dumb questions. I know from my AR shooting days that carbines have higher pressure at a gas port than rifles because of a shorter distance to the port. Does the same hold true for pistols, obviously with pressure at the muzzle?

That was a three sentence prelude to the actual question: are carry comps more effective on shorter barrel pistols?

[TAZ]

One of the few things we, well more like you guys, often forget is that the majority of shooters are not like you. We try, some come closer than others but the majority don't. For someone who has mastered the concepts of stance, grip, sight alignment, trigger control, follow through, and recoil management the comp won't make huge leaps in performance. Maybe enough to squeeze past another competitor, but will it be a significant change? Probably not.

What about the average Joe. Will it offer a marked improvement for them? Philosophically I agree 100% that all shooters should dedicate the time and effort to mastering their skills without relying on comps, RDS or whatevers. Is that realistic?? Probably not. So what would you rather have: a guy defending himself and sending round 2-n in a general direction cause he can't manage his follow ups or a guy whose comp helps keep him on target better??

Shooting from retention is a design issue. I was always told to can't the gun outboard to minimize possible contact with the slide. Comps can be designed to minimize blasting gasses towards the shooter.

[Default.mp3]

We have had no problems shooting KKM compensated G19's from retention; the same could NOT be said for shooting the G19c in the same fashion...As something of a counterpoint:

So Tulsa PD used to issue compensated guns several years ago so we have pretty good reference points for this from Mike Brown, Brandon, Dave Pyle, and Thad. The answer? Depends on the ammo but at most it's objectionable but not debilitating. I'd test my practice and carry loads to make sure, but I haven't observed any substantial issues with factory comped Glocks and TPD issued ammo.So, yeah, it would suck, but it's not, like, insurmountable, at least with the thumb pectoral index as taught by Craig.

[BN]

Would adding a KKM Comp and barrel to a Glock 19 change POA/POI? I know just adding a comped barrel to a single stack .45 does.

[JHC]

Would adding a KKM Comp and barrel to a Glock 19 change POA/POI? I know just adding a comped barrel to a single stack .45 does.

On the Gen 3 G19 where I've left my KKM barrel and comp the POI remained constant for windage but impacts about 4" higher at 25 yards than it had with the OEM barrel. I still have fixed HD sights on it, so that's a thing. I'll get around to a taller front sight soon. Or get adjustables. I go back and forth on that.

[SLG]

One of the few things we, well more like you guys, often forget is that the majority of shooters are not like you. We try, some come closer than others but the majority don't. For someone who has mastered the concepts of stance, grip, sight alignment, trigger control, follow through, and recoil management the comp won't make huge leaps in performance. Maybe enough to squeeze past another competitor, but will it be a significant change? Probably not.

What about the average Joe. Will it offer a marked improvement for them? Philosophically I agree 100% that all shooters should dedicate the time and effort to mastering their skills without relying on comps, RDS or whatevers. Is that realistic?? Probably not. So what would you rather have: a guy defending himself and sending round 2-n in a general direction cause he can't manage his follow ups or a guy whose comp helps keep him on target better??

Shooting from retention is a design issue. I was always told to can't the gun outboard to minimize possible contact with the slide. Comps can be designed to minimize blasting gasses towards the shooter.

I don't expect everyone to put the time in to master anything. If an accessory gives you an advantage, and does not detract in anyway that matters, then carry on.

I do have an inherent bias against hardware solutions, especially ones that have perceived or real drawbacks. This thread is an extension of me trying to overcome my bias and determine what might be worthwhile and what is not. Several people have no issue with comps from 2. A good friend called me today. He happens to be a GM, among other things. He thought comps were a terrible idea on carry guns, based on a bad experience he had with one from 2. He gave me some simple range "tests" to see how effective any given comp might be. I'll try them out later in the week with the KKM, which is the only comp I have that might be considered appropriate for carry.

Maybe it bears repeating, but a "poor man's open gun" is a definite square range shooting advantage for me. Is it enough to make it worth doing? Is one part more important than another part? This is what I'm interested in playing with to determine.

[shane45]

I am all for experimentation. I think its fantastic. So few actually get out there and test a theory. I applaud those that do! It is much better IMO to figure out if it works for YOU because it might or might not even though it did or didn't work for others.

[busdriver]

are carry comps more effective on shorter barrel pistols?
More or less, yes.

[Edwin]

This would be a fun way to find out:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/carry-comp/

Coming soon to a IDPA division near you.

[littlejerry]

Interesting since the "Roland Special" is all the rage currently.

...
https://imgflip.com/i/1fk5e5

https://i.imgflip.com/1fk5e5.jpg

[GJM]

If you consider the FAST, which is where this started, I think trigger control is far more important than sight alignment (red dot) or recoil control (comp). Where do I buy something, other than a truck load of ammo, that improves trigger control? :)

[nalesq]

More or less, yes.

Has anyone tried putting a carry comp on a G26?

[rob_s]

As a followup to the above question, I was taught to shoot from 2 with the hand oriented roughly 45 degrees from vertical towards palm up. To what extent, if any, does that impact the hot gases and particles to the face issue?

If this is all about fighting, how do we guarantee that we're going to get our hand in the correct protracted angle when being tossed around by our adversary?

Or are we going with the "in that case I don't care if I get burned" thing?

[JHC]

If you consider the FAST, which is where this started, I think trigger control is far more important than sight alignment (red dot) or recoil control (comp). Where do I buy something, other than a truck load of ammo, that improves trigger control? :)

Agree, trigger work is #1. OTOH I looked back at some notes and photos snapped a few weeks back working on Mr. White's drills with the KKM comped G19 and I found were I was clean for numerous cycles of the D2 to the 4" circle (head) in the 1.75-1.85 sec range from open carry. That's moving along pretty good for me, albeit not that much for "dark pinners." I distinctly recalled that the the sights seems to almost just sit in that head target so visually it made it appear so easy to press twice quickly. Like Momma Gump said, "that's one less thing."

I've said a few times that this stinker is just stupid fun to shoot. At this point, that's what I like it for.

I've only carried it a couple times to see how it rode and all. Meh, behind the hip IWB it can pinch my ass and AIWB the length kinda pokes which gets uncomfortable. I get that plenty of folks make G34s work like that, I've tried 34s too like that and didn't dig the length then either. So generally I'm still carrying an RTF2 19 or a 26.

[farscott]

As others have noted, not all compensated or ported designs are created equal. Somewhere in my box of gun garbage I use for safety lectures is a Glock 17 (?) frame that was destroyed when the owner (not me) used a G17C barrel in a G17 (not ported) slide. When fired the first time in this configuration, the gasses exited the barrel ports but could not exit the slide. So the pressure built until something yielded. That "something" was the frame dust cover. The plastic fractured and the front section is only retained by the now-bent serial number plate. I really need to pull out the frame for pictures.

In any event, the small holes in the Glock barrel lead to much higher gas pressures and velocities than the port on my Weigand Hybra-Port revolvers. As a test with one of the ported SP-101s, I fired off five rounds of 158-grain lead SWC at 1100 fps with a sheet of white printer paper a few inches (not very precise, I know) above the barrel. The paper looked cleaned afterwards and showed no tears. That same piece of paper is littered with lead and powder particles when placed next to the barrel/cylinder gap of the same revolver.

[BillSWPA]

If this is all about fighting, how do we guarantee that we're going to get our hand in the correct protracted angle when being tossed around by our adversary?

Or are we going with the "in that case I don't care if I get burned" thing?

Obviously in a fight things can and do go wrong - the very fact that you are in a fight means something already went wrong. However, if we have a way to minimize or avoid something that might hinder us in that fight, either through gear selection and/or training, then we should do so.

I do not generally carry compensated guns, and only own one - a Taurus .44 mag. revolver. However, I have taught many recoil-shy students, and the ability that the compensator may provide to get them into a more serious caliber has to be weighed against whatever disadvantages the compensator may have. If we know how to select our compensator and how to shoot our compensated guns in a way that minimizes this disadvantage, then a compensated gun becomes a viable option for them.

[orionz06]

If this is all about fighting, how do we guarantee that we're going to get our hand in the correct protracted angle when being tossed around by our adversary?

Or are we going with the "in that case I don't care if I get burned" thing?

If you operate under the premise that one won't draw until they've got the time and position to do so I'm not sure the Comp matters. If you make a bad decision to draw then it may be one more thing to go wrong but not the worst.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[farscott]

Glock gone wrong.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0172_zpszqdiz9ac.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0172_zpszqdiz9ac.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0173_zpsxjo90uj8.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0173_zpsxjo90uj8.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0174_zpseyfg9wjl.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0174_zpseyfg9wjl.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0175_zps0t6vjtjv.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0175_zps0t6vjtjv.jpg.html)

[Gray222]

Glock gone wrong.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0172_zpszqdiz9ac.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0172_zpszqdiz9ac.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0173_zpsxjo90uj8.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0173_zpsxjo90uj8.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0174_zpseyfg9wjl.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0174_zpseyfg9wjl.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0175_zps0t6vjtjv.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0175_zps0t6vjtjv.jpg.html)

...did a comp cause that?

[farscott]

That happened when a Glock compensated barrel was fired in a gun whose slide did not have the holes to match the compensated barrel.

[GRV]

You know, I've been curious if you could get a 19 or 26 slide on a 17 frame and just cut the dust cover down......;)

[Caballoflaco]

You know, I've been curious if you could get a 19 or 26 slide on a 17 frame and just cut the dust cover down......;)

Negative Ghostrider, the positioning of the locking block/ recoil spring seat is incrementally closer to mag well as you go down in frame size. In addition on the gen 3 guns where the recoil spring fits into the slide is of a larger diameter than the 17/19 slides and is larger than the i.d. Of the larger frame's dust cover.

I worked on this with a member at Lightfighter couple of months ago, including checking gen4 guns at a LGS. Without making a new frame it ain't gonna happen.

Link (because it's gots pictures) http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/glock-17-frame-glock-19-slide-with-threaded-barrel?reply=39448433047603543#39448433047603543

[Gray222]

That happened when a Glock compensated barrel was fired in a gun whose slide did not have the holes to match the compensated barrel.

Lollllll

[Cecil Burch]

If this is all about fighting, how do we guarantee that we're going to get our hand in the correct protracted angle when being tossed around by our adversary?

Or are we going with the "in that case I don't care if I get burned" thing?

You don't introduce the gun until you have dominant positional control so when the gun is in play you have the exact angle/hand position necessary.

[gskip]

I've shot my KKM from 2 and I thought it was fine. I definitely wouldn't want to shoot a real major open gun from that position though.

And I can say that my KKM has made me shoot my glock faster. I can shoot my glock as fast as my 1911 now. I normally can do .12-.13 splits going as fast as I can with my DW Valkyrie 9mm. I can only do .15 splits with my standard glock, but I can do .12 splits with my KKM'ed glock.

Now does .03 difference matter? Eh I don't know but it makes my glock more fun. I can tell that it shoots faster.

Yesterday I did a USPSA match with my duty 17 and realized just how much that comp works. It definitely is substantial to me and I won't be giving up my KKM any time soon.

[pastaslinger]

Has anyone tried putting a carry comp on a G26?

I don't care about a comp on a G26 but I am somewhat interested in an RMR G26

I've seen pics of a couple and I think it looks great and the G26 is one of my favorite Glocks

[JCS]

You know, I've been curious if you could get a 19 or 26 slide on a 17 frame and just cut the dust cover down......;)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/97eb963dee9e8cc1c32e791e9980608e.jpg

I ran across this on Instagram. It's Salient Arms so I have no idea how legit it is.

[BobLoblaw]

I ran across this on Instagram. It's Salient Arms so I have no idea how legit it is.

That's kind of goofy if you're not also putting a dot on it. "I like the G17 but it has too much sight radius."

[GRV]

That's kind of goofy if you're not also putting a dot on it. "I like the G17 but it has too much sight radius."

Run a dot and a KKM and now you have a Roland Special with a full G17 grip. True G34 form factor.

Do the above with a 26 slide and now you'll fit a G17 holster too.

ETA: Actually I don't know that I've seen confirmation that a 26+KKM will fit a 17 holster, but I've seen it speculated. In any event, it'd probably be enough shorter to make a difference to some folks who wouldn't be able to comfortably pull off a G34 length wherever.

[psalms144.1]

That's kind of goofy if you're not also putting a dot on it. "I like the G17 but it has too much sight radius."I agree, but I wouldn't even want to guess how many "carry" version pistols Sig has sold over the years - compact slide on a full size frame. Makes no sense to me, but folks that love 'em REALLY love 'em...

[GJM]

I agree, but I wouldn't even want to guess how many "carry" version pistols Sig has sold over the years - compact slide on a full size frame. Makes no sense to me, but folks that love 'em REALLY love 'em...

The 320 Carry was my favorite shooting of the 320 FS, Carry and Compact. Full grip for recoil control and general handling, and a flatter cycling (short) slide.

[spinmove_]

The 320 Carry was my favorite shooting of the 320 FS, Carry and Compact. Full grip for recoil control and general handling, and a flatter cycling (short) slide.

This is why the 3.8" XDM always intrigued me. I could never get over the part where it was an XD though.


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[Clobbersaurus]

The 320 Carry was my favorite shooting of the 320 FS, Carry and Compact. Full grip for recoil control and general handling, and a flatter cycling (short) slide.

That's basically what a full size PX4 is. Stolen from teh itrawebz:

http://i543.photobucket.com/albums/gg478/pokersamurai/DSCF5187.jpg

[Drang]

I agree, but I wouldn't even want to guess how many "carry" version pistols Sig has sold over the years - compact slide on a full size frame. Makes no sense to me, but folks that love 'em REALLY love 'em...

And what would it cost them to market a "Concealed Carry" grip module, FS slide on a Compact grip? And how much would they make off it? (SMH)

[OnionsAndDragons]

And what would it cost them to market a "Concealed Carry" grip module, FS slide on a Compact grip? And how much would they make off it? (SMH)

Or SubCom grip with a Compact slide. I like that one. :)

[Drang]

Preferably with a trade in program for the grips you don't want. /digression

Back to carry comps, I still don't see an advantage, but I am willing to be enlightened and/or entertained, if not convinced.

[Caballoflaco]

I think they (Salient) cut a Glock 19 frame back some and then fit a grip extension to reach Glock 17 length.

It looks like there is a seam that runs from the first finger bump from the bottom of the grip all the way to the back-strap.

[Clobbersaurus]

Take this for what it's worth. I designed a few rifle comps many years ago and did some extensive research on the subject.

Fact: The vast majority of comp "designers" do not understand the science behind compensator/muzzle brake design. You have to have many years of schooling in gas dynamics to absolutely know what you are doing. If you don't have that knowledge then you have design by trial by error, which is not a bad way to go, it's just expensive and time consuming. I once tried to measure, mathematically, the effectiveness of one of my comps based on accepted mathmatical equations I found in one of the textbooks I read. I got stuck on page two of the equation. That's the type of science we are talking about here.

So let's get to "testing" of the comps. First of all, recoil control is different for everyone, so you have to take that out of the testing. How do you do that with a polymer framed gun? You have to make sure the ammo is 100% exact, shot to shot. You have to make sure barrel length is the same. You would have to test the comp vs an exactly weighted muzzle device to make sure that he extra weight was not a factor. The weighted muzzle device would have to be designed not to deflect any gas at all (hard to do).

Then how do you measure effectiveness of your comp? Split speed? Muzzle rise? What metric do you use to measure that? How do you solidly clamp the gun while still allowing for muzzle rise? Slide length and weight becomes an issue. Frame rail friction, mainspring weights in hammer guns, recoil spring weights. All these things would have to be exact and measured to see how effective our comp truely was. Do any of the manufactures out there do this? I've been out of this for many years but at the time I didn't know of any manufactures that went to these lengths to test their devices, except for maybe KAC on rifle brakes. But they have some pretty kick ass muzzle devices. Pistol comps? I don't know of any that have done that level of testing, but again maybe things have changed. I haven't been interested in muzzle devices for years now.

As SLG suggested, the shooter would have to try to figure out for himself/herself if the comp helped his/her shooting. But again, that is subjective, at best. If you try a comp and you like it, then rock it. But your favourite device might not be the holy grail you are looking for, there are just too many other factors to consider that affect a shooters performance.

[SLG]

Clobber,

Obviously any testing I do here involves all of the criteria you listed.��

Joking aside, you are completely correct. The comp market in general is snake oil, much like the suppressor market.

[Clobbersaurus]

Clobber,

Obviously any testing I do here involves all of the criteria you listed.��

Disappointing. I question your resolve.;)


Joking aside, you are completely correct. The comp market in general is snake oil, much like the suppressor market.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Clobbersaurus,

Thank you for lending some credence to the intuition cross mild amount of research I've been punting around considering this subject. I'd love to see a KAC level comp for the application we've been discussing here, but it just doesn't seem worthy of the cost of proper r&d.

[45dotACP]

I'd imagine short of a military contract, you probably won't

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Luke]

http://www.binaryeng.com/products/cfd-titanium-compsensator

[SLG]

http://www.binaryeng.com/products/cfd-titanium-compsensator

Still snake oil. Everyone knows you can't trust external flow. Internal flow is where its at.

[Luke]

I like snake oil. The mind is a powerful thing. So is the snake oil, now that I think about it.

[SLG]

I like snake oil. The mind is a powerful thing. So is the snake oil, now that I think about it.

Not as powerful as internal flow. It's like chi.

Chi makes comps work.

[Luke]

I'm just assuming the ultra chi is better than the ceramic? Thoughts SLG?


http://www.ulta.com/ultra-chi-brilliant-gold-1-hairstyling-iron?productId=xlsImpprod15001095&sku=2501180&cmpid=PS_Non!google!Product_Listing_Ads&cagpspn=pla&CATCI=pla-195129870510&CAAGID=23551038870&CAWELAID=330000200000932826&catargetid=330000200000764114&cadevice=m&gclid=Cj0KEQiA7K7CBRCrwt26v5uHs98BEiQA0JzsZ66yMFJv loYnHPkci3V9q2IGNvHyOlLNmWb2VmtMLIUaApW28P8HAQ

[SLG]

Ultra is good...

[Luke]

I feel so dumb, please don't laugh. First comp and all.. where do I put the chi?

[Clobbersaurus]

http://www.binaryeng.com/products/cfd-titanium-compsensator

This is actually intereting. It says the dude who designed it is a mechanical engineer, so maybe it's got more than Chi in it. I would like to see how he tested it.

I remember from my research that three baffles are the sweet spot for brake design; there was something to do with severely diminishing returns after that. Most of the information I could find at the time had to do with rifle and artillery brakes though.

[orionz06]

This is actually intereting. It says the dude who designed it is a mechanical engineer, so maybe it's got more than Chi in it. I would like to see how he tested it.

I remember from my research that three baffles are the sweet spot for brake design; there was something to do with severely diminishing returns after that. Most of the information I could find at the time had to do with rifle and artillery brakes though.

Doesn't mean they have the experience needed to get a decent comp, nor does it even mean they understand shooting. Lots of companies making garbage have engineers too.

[Clobbersaurus]

Doesn't mean they have the experience needed to get a decent comp, nor does it even mean they understand shooting. Lots of companies making garbage have engineers too.

Sure, but that could be said for any discipline. But I will say that when it comes to the subject at hand I would take a properly engineered product, by someone who knows a little something about the science involved, over a back of the napkin, "let's make some metal chips fly off the CNC machine" product any day.

What little I know of the subject jives with what is on his website, so I would be willing to give this dude the benefit of the doubt. Like I said, I would like to see how he went about testing it vs other devices.

[orionz06]

They might be fine or they might be fiddling around with software they don't understand. I've seen enough guys dabbled in CFD as part of their job and completely fuck it up to believe that someone doing something on the side nailed it. I could be wrong though.

[Clobbersaurus]

They might be fine or they might be fiddling around with software they don't understand. I've seen enough guys dabbled in CFD as part of their job and completely fuck it up to believe that someone doing something on the side nailed it. I could be wrong though.

True, it's good to be sceptical of everything, especially when it comes to muzzle devices.

[Rex G]

I think they (Salient) cut a Glock 19 frame back some and then fit a grip extension to reach Glock 17 length.

It looks like there is a seam that runs from the first finger bump from the bottom of the grip all the way to the back-strap.

I can see that seam, so this being done on a G19 is a logical conclusion. I can see such a build being desirable for someone with large hands, who really desires the G19-length slide and barrel, and does not like getting his fingers pinched by using mag adapter sleeves on G17 mags in a G19 frame.

[167]

I can see that seam, so this being done on a G19 is a logical conclusion. I can see such a build being desirable for someone with large hands, who really desires the G19-length slide and barrel, and does not like getting his fingers pinched by using mag adapter sleeves on G17 mags in a G19 frame.

Not to derail the thread too much, but the rail/frame dustcover being cut square at the muzzle makes me think something might have been chopped. I think on most compact frames the rail sort of tapers off (like pictured below) and the one in that picture doesn't appear to.

12248

[Erick Gelhaus]

Good, skip it.

Since then, some of us have been trying to figure out exactly how much of an aid some things are, namely comps, mag wells, mrds. I started looking at splits with the KKM comp vs. a stock gun. I'd seen the AA comp before, but never used one. Hence this thread.

SLG - can you point me to the mag well discussion? I raised the magwell issue recently in the context of it being a probable negative with regards to one hand manipulation but did not see much feedback.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

After reviewing some of the Agency Arms NOC pistols currently on GunBroker, I have determined that they are the Affliction T-Shirts of the gun world. Pass.

I see more Glock 17's in my future.

[t1tan]

I think they (Salient) cut a Glock 19 frame back some and then fit a grip extension to reach Glock 17 length.

It looks like there is a seam that runs from the first finger bump from the bottom of the grip all the way to the back-strap.

No, definitely looks like a 17 frame. All that would be required to make this work is a 17 frame, 19 slide and a cut down 17 barrel, then trim the dust cover.

[busdriver]

It's a 17 frame, you can see the forward tab "rail" on the frame. You would have to cut back the frame inside the dust cover to allow the slide to get enough rearward travel.

[RevolverRob]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161205/be7ed6cd14aa939cbfd9b06b0dc7e6ae.jpg
STI Costa carry comp.

Not really a big Costa fan...but that pistola there gives me all kinds of tingly feelings. Want.


The comp market in general is snake oil, much like the suppressor market.

I guess I'm a little confused by snake oil and suppressors...Either suppressors work or they don't? I mean I guess I get some of the snake oil there, "lightest, greatest, most sound suppressingest, suppressor, ever." - But it seems easier to measure, objectively suppressors...Either they reduce sound effectively or they don't...

But comps are obviously much harder to objectively evaluate.

[Default.mp3]

I guess I'm a little confused by snake oil and suppressors...Either suppressors work or they don't? I mean I guess I get some of the snake oil there, "lightest, greatest, most sound suppressingest, suppressor, ever." - But it seems easier to measure, objectively suppressors...Either they reduce sound effectively or they don't...

But comps are obviously much harder to objectively evaluate.Something that meters quiet doesn't necessarily actually sound quiet to the ear. And then there's the question of how the metering was done. Etc.

[El Cid]

STI and Costa are 2 decades behind. ;) Nash Bridges was rocking a carry comped blaster in the 90's.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/0/04/NashBridges1911.jpg/400px-NashBridges1911.jpg
Image courtesy of IMDB

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8c/9f/32/8c9f32b7ad8953da833ede9777a6fff4.jpg

[RevolverRob]

Something that meters quiet doesn't necessarily actually sound quiet to the ear. And then there's the question of how the metering was done. Etc.

Well, that is true. But the human middle ear has a finite volume of air within it that dictates the frequency at which we can perceive sounds. So with this in mind both a measurement of decibel and frequency should give a strong sense of how actual quiet and how "subjective" quiet a suppressor is.

But yes I concur re: how the testing was done, etc. The biggest issue with most sound suppressor tests done is they are either done outdoors or in an indoor firing range. As opposed to the way you should do them...inside a sound chamber where you get the truest quiet on the planet (which I'm told, having never been in one myself, can drive someone mad in just a few minutes, because of how quiet they are). Then we'd get accurate DB ratings.

But of course, like compensators, sound suppressors are also highly dependent on platform and ammunition choice...So I do get it. But even a decibel meter in a controlled indoor range is likely a more objective test than individual split-times.

Although if y'all really want to figure the comp-thing out. Probably the best way is to go to a dozen USPSA competitions and give every actual GM there a run behind the exact same gun with the exact same bullet, on the exact same drill. Then do the same, sans compensator. Then calculate each competitors average overall and split times on the drill in question. With a sufficiently large sample size, you should get something approximating a normal distribution for times and split times and then you'll be able to statistically compare the two averages. If there is a statistical difference, then you can suggest the comp makes a genuine difference, if not, there isn't. But that sounds like pretty boring research. I just want a Costa Carry Comp 2011 and a pallet of 9mm ammo for shits and giggles. I don't care if the comp works better or not...I love the idea of a fixed front-sight and low-recoiling, high-capacity, 9mm handgun - because plate racks aren't going to shoot themselves quickly...

[Gray222]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8c/9f/32/8c9f32b7ad8953da833ede9777a6fff4.jpg

That dude's face says it all.

[SLG]

Maybe snake oil isn't the best term, or maybe I'm using it wrong. Aside from the testing and claims, which is highly suspect most of the time, the snake oil part has to do with what clobbersaurus was talking about as far as design. Most of these things have very little science going in. Guys will just make something, and see how it works. If it works, voila! If not, then back to the drawing board. Not all companies do it by trial and error, but I would say that even today, most do.

[11B10]

Preferably with a trade in program for the grips you don't want. /digression

Back to carry comps, I still don't see an advantage, but I am willing to be enlightened and/or entertained, if not convinced.


I agree - this is a very interesting thread.

[11B10]

Clobber,

Obviously any testing I do here involves all of the criteria you listed.��

Joking aside, you are completely correct. The comp market in general is snake oil, much like the suppressor market.



SLG, you need a drummer to give you rim shots for your humor.

[11B10]

STI and Costa are 2 decades behind. ;) Nash Bridges was rocking a carry comped blaster in the 90's.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/0/04/NashBridges1911.jpg/400px-NashBridges1911.jpg
Image courtesy of IMDB

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8c/9f/32/8c9f32b7ad8953da833ede9777a6fff4.jpg



It must have replaced "Nash's" Bren Ten, right?

[11B10]

That dude's face says it all.


Vdm, I vividly remember when "Sonny" unleashed that Bren Ten the first time. I thought: "What the hell is THAT?" I do believe Don Johnson enjoys firearms.

[Default.mp3]

Maybe snake oil isn't the best term, or maybe I'm using it wrong. Aside from the testing and claims, which is highly suspect most of the time, the snake oil part has to do with what clobbersaurus was talking about as far as design. Most of these things have very little science going in. Guys will just make something, and see how it works. If it works, voila! If not, then back to the drawing board. Not all companies do it by trial and error, but I would say that even today, most do.CFD is hard, bruh. Or at least doing it properly, and actually basing the design off of it, rather than using it to simply confirm.


Well, that is true. But the human middle ear has a finite volume of air within it that dictates the frequency at which we can perceive sounds. So with this in mind both a measurement of decibel and frequency should give a strong sense of how actual quiet and how "subjective" quiet a suppressor is.Sure, I'm just noting the tendency for suppressor companies to play up how quiet their cans sound to the human ear, while downplaying the metered outputs.


But yes I concur re: how the testing was done, etc. The biggest issue with most sound suppressor tests done is they are either done outdoors or in an indoor firing range. As opposed to the way you should do them...inside a sound chamber where you get the truest quiet on the planet (which I'm told, having never been in one myself, can drive someone mad in just a few minutes, because of how quiet they are). Then we'd get accurate DB ratings.That's only part of the issue. The other issue is some companies will meter using a different test protocol, but not explicitly say so in their advertising, which once again leads to shitty data overall.

[RevolverRob]

The other issue is some companies will meter using a different test protocol, but not explicitly say so in their advertising, which once again leads to shitty data overall.

So...what you're saying is we need to start an independent review company that scientifically tests firearms marketing claims and accessories and publishes them? A Consumer Reports of Firearms?

Where do you want to setup shop? I'll call Misanthropist to see if he will take on the task of managing and editing the publications for press. You get the FFL necessary to make paperwork easier. I'll start gathering equipment and ammunition.

Let's do it!

-Rob

[El Cid]

It must have replaced "Nash's" Bren Ten, right?

Exactly. ;) Interestingly that 1911 was in 38 Super. No idea if that was part of the story line or if it's just easier to use with blanks.


That dude's face says it all.

Well, he was dating his costar at the time. If I was waking up next to Jodi Lyn O'Keefe I'd be smiling like a fool as well.

[11B10]

Exactly. ;) Interestingly that 1911 was in 38 Super. No idea if that was part of the story line or if it's just easier to use with blanks.



Well, he was dating his costar at the time. If I was waking up next to Jodi Lyn O'Keefe I'd be smiling like a fool as well.



If the reports about Don Johnson's PERSONAL weapon are true, SHE was the one waking up "smiling like a fool." It's long been rumored that Mr. Johnson has, indeed, been named correctly.

[Luke]

If the reports about Don Johnson's PERSONAL weapon are true, SHE was the one waking up "smiling like a fool." It's long been rumored that Mr. Johnson has, indeed, been named correctly.


This is possibly the best thread drift I've ever seen.. curious if this subject will make it 2-3 pages...

[spinmove_]

If the reports about Don Johnson's PERSONAL weapon are true, SHE was the one waking up "smiling like a fool." It's long been rumored that Mr. Johnson has, indeed, been named correctly.

Sounds like Recoil is literally the only thing he would be compensating for...


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[11B10]

This is possibly the best thread drift I've ever seen.. curious if this subject will make it 2-3 pages...


I try, Luke, I really do. Thread drift is what you do when you're a know-nothing like me.

[11B10]

Sounds like Recoil is literally the only thing he would be compensating for...


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy


AND, continuing with the drift is one of THE best lines I've heard in quite sometime.

[spinmove_]

AND, continuing with the drift is one of THE best lines I've heard in quite sometime.

I try. :)


Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

[NickA]

Well, he was dating his costar at the time. If I was waking up next to Jodi Lyn O'Keefe I'd be smiling like a fool as well.

On the show she was his daughter. That had to have been...weird.

[That Guy]

This is possibly the best thread drift I've ever seen.. curious if this subject will make it 2-3 pages...

Todays discussion topic on pistol-forum.com: Mr. Johnson's johnson...

(See? I'm doing my part in keeping the discussion going. ;) )

[11B10]

Todays discussion topic on pistol-forum.com: Mr. Johnson's johnson...

(See? I'm doing my part in keeping the discussion going. ;) )


And for doing that, you receive one large "attaboy!". Thanks, Tony.

[spinmove_]

Todays discussion topic on pistol-forum.com: Mr. Johnson's johnson...

(See? I'm doing my part in keeping the discussion going. ;) )

Dick move, bruh....


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[Luke]

Tom we are almost to the predickted 3 pages.. just a little more..

[DocSabo40]

Back on topic for a moment. I'm speccing out a custom Commander size build in .45 and I'm considering having a separate barrel fitted with a smallish 1 or 2 port comp. I had always heard that comps on .45s don't work, but after a bit of research it looks like they work at least reasonably well if you load properly for them (big charge of slow powder). I can link the articles if anyone is interested.

My motivation for this is mostly curiosity, partially special snowflake, and partially that I'm envisioning a .45 with 9mm +p recoil. With the right springs it could even be a Super launcher, but that would take some experimenting.

Who here has experience with .45 comp'd guns, how did they work?

[shane45]

A comp on a 45 CAN work. But I can tell you from experience, shooting IPSC in the late 90's when 45's in that sport still existed, I had to run 150grn bullets at over 1200 fps to get the comp working enough to make a difference. So IMO, not worth the effort.

[BN]

Who here has experience with .45 comp'd guns, how did they work?

Me. :)

Comps on .45's do work. Not as well as on a 9mm/38 Super, but they do work.

I still have my Nastoff Comp gun. A single stack 1911 with the slide cut back to 4.5 inches. The recommended powder at the time was 452AA, then 231. Both are faster powders. Some used Bullseye. That was usually with a 200 or 185 grain semi wadcutter. I tried the 155 grain bullets, but I didn't like them.

Be aware that POA/POI might be different between the 2 barrels. I would recommend an adjustable rear sight.

[LOKNLOD]

I got a chance to shoot a .45 with a wierd sight tracker/carry comp-ish porting set up the other day. It was my boss's; he had said had a 1911 and then out comes this full Caspian rig:

12639

We only had the Magtech range ammo to shoot through it, but the recoil was noticeably lighter than I expected. It also had an insanely light trigger, needed to be resprung, needed some more reliable mags. It was fun to shoot, but constant malfunctions. But recoil? yeah it was reduced.

[DocSabo40]

Well, the builder got back to me and said they don't do comps, so that's out unless I want to pony up the $4k for a Carry Comp. Which I'm foolishly considering.

Now I really want to try a comp'd .45 though. That's interesting about the powder Bill. I'm not sure what years you were shooting the comp gun, but did you have access to AA7 or something slower like that? In everything I've read, higher gas volume=less recoil. But research doesn't always jive with reality so I value your and everyone else's input who has actually shot these puppies.

Here's where I'm getting the data:
https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/compensated-45-vs-compensated-38.25611/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/compensators-pressure-gas/

Edit: I'm not positive on the rules to linking to other forums. I will remove these STAT if it's not cool.

[theJanitor]

I've had .45 comp guns by Boland, CT Brian, and Wilson. The comps do work, but 38Super comp guns really shine. Also remember that the comp guns are pretty long, with a big hunk of steel at the end of the 5" barrel. not all of the change in the feel of the gun is the management of the gas

[DocGKR]

"Comps on .45's do work."

As noted previously, PMac has a great story about his use of a comped .45 1911 in a real world combat engagement while he was on active duty...

[BN]

That's interesting about the powder Bill. I'm not sure what years you were shooting the comp gun, but did you have access to AA7 or something slower like that? In everything I've read, higher gas volume=less recoil. But research doesn't always jive with reality so I value your and everyone else's input who has actually shot these puppies.

I got the gun in 1986 and I still have it. I ran it for several years as a single stack and also with a Para frame. Steve Nastoff told me to load 452AA and later when it was discontinued, I ran 231, Bullseye and WST. I have info where I chronoed AA#5, so #7 and #9 were probably available. I always had some Unique on hand, but I didn't use it in the comp gun. I guess it's because the .45 is a lower pressure cartridge than .38 Super.

An interesting factoid is that in 1987, Jerry Barnhart won the USPSA Nationals shooting a .45 Nastoff identical to mine. :)

[DocSabo40]

As noted previously, PMac has a great story about his use of a comped .45 1911 in a real world combat engagement while he was on active duty...

I missed it, was that in this thread? I just skimmed all the posts but didn't see it.

[Dave Williams]

I would be interested to know what Pmac carried the comp'd 45 in.

[shane45]

I used VihtaVuori. Looking at the current load data, closest to what I did would be along the lines of N340 8.2 grains. I know I was a tiny bit over max load back then but had no pressure signs. Im 90% sure I had got ahold of 150 grn rounds somewhere instead of the normal 155's. The comp worked well with this load. I liked the VV powder as it ran very clean.

[1slow]

How would a carry comp work for a HK USP 45 using .45 Super? I would assume enough there is gas to make it work.

[DocSabo40]

Does anyone have a KKM Glock 9mm comp that can measure the exit diameter?

[tcba_joe]

Has anyone tried the TBRCI comp? Seems like the go-to for people with threaded barrels not made by KKM.

[Gray222]

Has anyone tried the TBRCI comp? Seems like the go-to for people with threaded barrels not made by KKM.

I have one and another on order. It's half the price and smaller.

[SLG]

Does anyone have a KKM Glock 9mm comp that can measure the exit diameter?

My Starrett says .369, but as always, there is some variation in measuring.

[SLG]

I have one and another on order. It's half the price and smaller.

So the question is, how well does it work?

[TiroFijo]

As noted previously, PMac has a great story about his use of a comped .45 1911 in a real world combat engagement while he was on active duty...

Some people would be sucessful using pretty much anything decent...

[Gray222]

So the question is, how well does it work?

I did not have a chance to run any series of timed standards as my schedule did not permit it. I did run the hostage head shot target drill and I shot it about 1/3rd faster, which is pretty good.

[DocSabo40]

Voodoo, have you run a KKM comp? If so, how does the TBRCI compare? I'm totally nerding out about this and the effect that different powders and bullet weights would have on the comp performance.

[Gray222]

Voodoo, have you run a KKM comp? If so, how does the TBRCI compare? I'm totally nerding out about this and the effect that different powders and bullet weights would have on the comp performance.

I have not. I also don't believe there will be much difference.

[tcba_joe]

I just saw on ARF that S3F is supposed to release a micro comp/bbl comp combo

12798

[Gray222]

Everyone and their mother is going to be releasing comps...Easy to do if you have the equipment.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I did not have a chance to run any series of timed standards as my schedule did not permit it. I did run the hostage head shot target drill and I shot it about 1/3rd faster, which is pretty good.

I would be very interested to hear your overall impressions. Struggling with the KKM Vs. S3F/TBRCi dilemma currently.

[orionz06]

Everyone and their mother is going to be releasing comps...Easy to do if you have the equipment.

With how foolishly folks are spending money on this crap so they can be cool it's a wise move to toss one to market if you have a means of production.

[Gray222]

With how foolishly folks are spending money on this crap so they can be cool it's a wise move to toss one to market if you have a means of production.

I agree.

I have already predicted someone coming out with a walkthrough on what comps do what and why with what barrels and loads.

At the end of the day you are going to see a lot of people do the Roland special thing because it's safe and g19 is king of carry. Though I'd be willing to bet a bottle of whiskey a g26 will probably perform just as good as a roland special and carry like a g19.

[Wondering Beard]

Everyone and their mother is going to be releasing comps...Easy to do if you have the equipment.

That's probably going to turn out to be the best prediction of what will be seen a lot at SHOT 2017

[Clobbersaurus]

Though I'd be willing to bet a bottle of whiskey a g26 will probably perform just as good as a roland special and carry like a g19.

Voodoo Man Mini-Special?

[KCBRUIN]

Though I'd be willing to bet a bottle of whiskey a g26 will probably perform just as good as a roland special and carry like a g19.

A comp'd G26 sounds like a ridiculous thing that I don't need that I'd spend money on for sure.

[JHC]

A comp'd G26 sounds like a ridiculous thing that I don't need that I'd spend money on for sure.

Oh I know it would be glorious. I will one of these days.

[Hambo]

Oh I know it would be glorious.

That's the spirit.

[CR78]

Oh I know it would be glorious. I will one of these days.

I have zero experience with compensators, so I'm genuinely curious - would we expect a comp'd G26 to perform well and reliably (compared to a G19)? Total length would approach something comparable to a 17 I'm guessing... I've seen an RMR'd G26, and it makes me wonder - coupled with the comments above - what this would run like.

[4gallonbucket]

I have zero experience with compensators, so I'm genuinely curious - would we expect a comp'd G26 to perform well and reliably (compared to a G19)? Total length would approach something comparable to a 17 I'm guessing... I've seen an RMR'd G26, and it makes me wonder - coupled with the comments above - what this would run like.

No first hand knowledge, but Adam Pini just mentioned on the P&S podcast that the comped 26 is where it's at. He says that the increased muzzle pressure of the 26 really helps with the comp.

My question would be could you run a g26 slide/threaded barrel/rsa on a g19 frame?


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[SLG]

I just watched a youtube video of a guy shooting his new comp. A competitor to KKM. It was too painful to watch completely, so i don't know what he drew from it. I mention it because his recoil control was terrible. So if you can't control a 9mm glock in recoil, does a comp help? Does it matter?

[Sigfan26]

I just watched a youtube video of a guy shooting his new comp. A competitor to KKM. It was too painful to watch completely, so i don't know what he drew from it. I mention it because his recoil control was terrible. So if you can't control a 9mm glock in recoil, does a comp help? Does it matter?

Im of the school that it's only going to help those who know what they're doing in the first place. If you're recoil control sucks in the first place, the comp will probably just reinforce bad habits and not allow the end user to see a benefit. Just my $0.02.


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[60167]

No first hand knowledge, but Adam Pini just mentioned on the P&S podcast that the comped 26 is where it's at. He says that the increased muzzle pressure of the 26 really helps with the comp.

My question would be could you run a g26 slide/threaded barrel/rsa on a g19 frame?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Negative. The locking block geometry is different. You CAN run a 19 slide on a 26 frame though.

[JHC]

Negative. The locking block geometry is different. You CAN run a 19 slide on a 26 frame though.

Waaaaaaat? Why wasn't I told?

[Dr. No]

I really want to put one on my VP9 and do a HK Roland Special. So far noone has made one that looks like it would look halfway decent. The S3F actually would be perfect but with a dedicated barrel that's not an option..

[jetfire]

For what's it worth, a comped G27 with an RMR is on its way as a side project to explore the effectiveness of the compensator.

It may take a while for me to get the whole kit and kaboodle together, but the Broland Special will live at some point.

[JSGlock34]

I really want to put one on my VP9 and do a HK Roland Special. So far noone has made one that looks like it would look halfway decent. The S3F actually would be perfect but with a dedicated barrel that's not an option..

This one looks halfway decent on a HK but I understand it is lacking in the actual compensating department... ;)

http://www.imfdb.org/images/a/ab/JohnWickP30L-2.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/88/JohnWick_513.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/1/19/JohnWickP30L.jpg

[Dr. No]

This one looks halfway decent on a HK but I understand it is lacking in the actual compensating department... ;)

http://www.imfdb.org/images/a/ab/JohnWickP30L-2.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/88/JohnWick_513.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/1/19/JohnWickP30L.jpg
Yeah that's why I'm saying it'd have to contoured just right. I may have to send a sketch to Robin Taylor..

[GJM]

Yeah that's why I'm saying it'd have to contoured just right. I may have to send a sketch to Robin Taylor..

What you gonna do with that thing? Not competitive in Open, not welcomed in a Darryl/Wayne class, no glory for a FAST in a Langdon class, and it will make the VP9 almost as long AIWB as an Elite. :)

[Dr. No]

What you gonna do with that thing? Not competitive in Open, not welcomed in a Darryl/Wayne class, no glory for a FAST in a Langdon class, and it will make the VP9 almost as long AIWB as an Elite. :)
I dunno :) carry it at work?

[GJM]

I dunno :) carry it at work?

Probably will get as much respect as the translucent USP magazines.

[Dagga Boy]

What you gonna do with that thing? Not competitive in Open, not welcomed in a Darryl/Wayne class, no glory for a FAST in a Langdon class, and it will make the VP9 almost as long AIWB as an Elite. :)

Negative ghost rider.......Dr. No is always welcome in our classes. What's the worse that could happen.....he is the fastest guy in class? That ship sailed long ago. Also, unlike many, Dr. No is not in the "trying to buy performance" crowd.

[Dr. No]

Probably will get as much respect as the translucent USP magazines.
That did seem to be quite the hit :)

Honestly sometimes I like to just have fun...

[GJM]

That did seem to be quite the hit :)

Honestly sometimes I like to just have fun...

It is fun to have you around to tease. I get tired of just poking Darryl and SLG.

[Dr. No]

It is fun to have you around to tease. I get tired of just poking Darryl and SLG.
Every board has to have a flying troll?!

[MGW]

What you gonna do with that thing? Not competitive in Open, not welcomed in a Darryl/Wayne class, no glory for a FAST in a Langdon class, and it will make the VP9 almost as long AIWB as an Elite. :)

He would do anything he wants with it. Compensators going to compensate. For something.

[Dr. No]

He would do anything he wants with it. Compensators going to compensate. For something.
For recoil? Splits maybe?

[Default.mp3]

Yeah that's why I'm saying it'd have to contoured just right. I may have to send a sketch to Robin Taylor..As you probably saw elsewhere, Brontes was building some, but looks like they went under before it went out:
http://i66.tinypic.com/2nv3q4m.jpg

If you do get Robin to do some, can you make sure he does some in 13.5×1 LH, too?

[Dr. No]

As you probably saw elsewhere, Brontes was building some, but looks like they went under before it went out:
http://i66.tinypic.com/2nv3q4m.jpg

If you do get Robin to do some, can you make sure he does some in 13.5×1 LH, too?
Got any other photos of it? That's pretty much my idea but half that length..

[Default.mp3]

Got any other photos of it? That's pretty much my idea but half that length..Only other photo that I'm aware of:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2vx1wdx.jpg
Certainly seems a bit bigger than the KKM comp.

[Dr. No]

Only other photo that I'm aware of:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2vx1wdx.jpg
Certainly seems a bit bigger than the KKM comp.
Yeah looks like they're copying the John wick. Without all the extra weight near the slide it'd be good. I'd want the length to match the gun with an x300 on it.

[Kimura]

For what's it worth, a comped G27 with an RMR is on its way as a side project to explore the effectiveness of the compensator.

It may take a while for me to get the whole kit and kaboodle together, but the Broland Special will live at some point.

Should be interesting. I always wondered if the comp would make a bigger difference on a 23 or 27. Looking forward to seeing the results.

[t1tan]

Found more info about the S3F comp, seems to be a joint project between them and Mayhem Syndicate?

more pictures through their Facebook and instagram, seems interesting.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOXpH07ja1a/

[Balisong]

For what's it worth, a comped G27 with an RMR is on its way as a side project to explore the effectiveness of the compensator.

It may take a while for me to get the whole kit and kaboodle together, but the Broland Special will live at some point.

As someone who packs a G27 I'd be interested in the results of this. I'm also interested in how typical defense ammo does in these compensators compared to gaming loads

[JCS]

Strike Industries has developed a comp that works without a threaded barrel. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/a803478aff12565c02a8bf2b323d48b5.jpg


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[BobLoblaw]

Strike Industries has developed a comp that works without a threaded barrel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with threaded barrels?

ETA: Better stated: What does a slide-mounted comp do better than a threaded comp?

[farscott]

I just watched a youtube video of a guy shooting his new comp. A competitor to KKM. It was too painful to watch completely, so i don't know what he drew from it. I mention it because his recoil control was terrible. So if you can't control a 9mm glock in recoil, does a comp help? Does it matter?

It might, especially for shooters who are physically compromised. The stock SP-101 with 158-grain loads at 1200 fps is hard to control, but the same gun with the "Tame the Beast" ports is much easier to control. Some loads actually push the muzzle down, providing a feel like an over-sprung 1911 returning to battery. As I age and hurt more of the time, a comp on a 9x19 looks more attractive.

[Rosco Benson]

I walked away from IPSC when the comp guns and game holsters started becoming popular. Here's a photo of my one compensated pistol. Built in about 1990 or so.

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad201/rbinoh/IMG_0825_2.jpg

It works. There is noticeably less muzzle rise.

[tcba_joe]

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with threaded barrels?

ETA: Better stated: What does a slide-mounted comp do better than a threaded comp?

Some states don't allow threaded pistol bbls. Other than that, If you could comp an OEM Glock without buying a threaded bbl you'd be saying a couple hundred bucks.

That said, I'm not convinced the Strike comp would actually work that well as a comp. It looks like during recoil the barrel would pass through the comp itself. Almost seems like the benefit would be as a muzzle weight (like the HK "comp")

[45dotACP]

I walked away from IPSC when the comp guns and game holsters started becoming popular. Here's a photo of my one compensated pistol. Built in about 1990 or so.

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad201/rbinoh/IMG_0825_2.jpg

It works. There is noticeably less muzzle rise.
That's some old school cool right there! 38 super?

[Rosco Benson]

Nope. 45ACP. Caspian slide and frame. Schuemamn Hybrid-Comp barrel. Put together by a fairly obscure pistolsmith, now deceased, named Don Schaaf. It's as tight as a bank vault and runs perfectly. I swapped out the original Bo-Mar BMCS rear sight for a Warren Tactical version when they came on the market. The gold bead front sight was kind of a stupid choice. After a few shots, it gets all smoked up and looks just plain black. Brushed hard chrome by Checkmate.

Rosco

[Doug]

Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with threaded barrels?

ETA: Better stated: What does a slide-mounted comp do better than a threaded comp?

Probably marketed to those states that outlaw threaded barrels on pistols.


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[busdriver]

Other than not requiring a threaded barrel, the strike comp will likely do nothing well.

A big part of the effectiveness is slowing down the slide. Which can't happen unless it's attached to the barrel.

[Rex G]

We have had no problems shooting KKM compensated G19's from retention; the same could NOT be said for shooting the G19c in the same fashion...

Thanks for posting this.

[AdioSS]

Other than not requiring a threaded barrel, the strike comp will likely do nothing well.

A big part of the effectiveness is slowing down the slide. Which can't happen unless it's attached to the barrel.
How does adding a comp slow down the slide?

The Beretta folks have been using compensators that are not threaded to the barrel for years. They attach to the guiderod & have wings on the sides that go around the dustcover of the frame that keeps them from twisting.

[busdriver]

How does adding a comp slow down the slide?

The Beretta folks have been using compensators that are not threaded to the barrel for years. They attach to the guiderod & have wings on the sides that go around the dustcover of the frame that keeps them from twisting.
There's a reason open guns use very light recoil springs despite the recoil (before the comp) being on par with a .40 S&W.

Nerdy stuff follows:
The gas coming out of the barrel expands as is equalizes with atmospheric pressure. That process starts when the bullet passes the comp and continues for awhile after the bullet is gone. The baffles inside the comp provide a surface for that high pressure gas to act upon, with holes/ports on top for a path of escape. As a result you get a downward and a forward force. Since the barrel is locked to the slide, that force serves to slow the slide down. With an open gun, you're talking muzzle pressures in the neighborhood of 5-6k psi. The result is somewhere around 300 pounds of force during the first 1/4 inch of slide travel, then the barrel and slide unlock.

Most of the felt recoil in a semi auto comes from the slide hitting the frame, so if you attach the comp to the frame you'll get a weird forward pull on the frame followed by the slide hitting. I'm sure it would "work" but I'm not sure the result would be "good."

Then again, considering the subtle effect of these little comps, it probably wouldn't matter much.

[shane45]

"Most of the felt recoil in a semi auto comes from the slide hitting the frame"

I suppose this could be true in part if the pistol has the wrong or a worn out recoil spring but the slide should not be wailing into the frame. Recoil comes in two initial pulses. The first being Newton's law, the bullet starting its travel(equal but opposite). The second is the bullet leaving the barrel causing a "kick" as the gas blasts back against the barrel crown.

[busdriver]

"Most of the felt recoil in a semi auto comes from the slide hitting the frame"

I suppose this could be true in part if the pistol has the wrong or a worn out recoil spring but the slide should not be wailing into the frame. Recoil comes in two initial pulses. The first being Newton's law, the bullet starting its travel(equal but opposite). The second is the bullet leaving the barrel causing a "kick" as the gas blasts back against the barrel crown.

What you're alluding two are the two sources of recoil, namely conservation of momentum (which is a result of muzzle velocity, not just the bullet starting its travel) and some "jet effect" of expanding gas departing the barrel after the bullet. All of which happens before you actually feel anything (other than concussion on you face) and both give the slide/barrel their initial velocity.

What you actually feel has to be transferred through the gun first. The slide, locked to the barrel starts rearward. The recoil spring does some work on the slide throughout that process, as well as the hammer cocking early in the travel. The barrel unlocks and hits the frame first, then the slide. All of those things transfer momentum from the reciprocating mass of the gun to the frame/shooter.

Note where the majority of muzzle lift comes in the cycle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xueXR054P-E

The recoil spring just doesn't do all that much. Correct slide mass is what keeps slide speed in a workable range. It's actually the "magic" behind a short recoil system
Putting big heavy springs in larger caliber versions of a gun is just a band-aide, even if it does work well enough many times.

[shane45]

The testing done by a university had the two impulses as the two distinct highest points of the recoil cycle. This mirrors my own theories on the subject. The projo is gone before the slide moves so this part of the recoil sequence has already occurred and been transferred through the pistol. 3 other 1911 smiths and myself did a deep dive mutli page discussion on the topic, had to be over 10 years ago. But it was a good discussion and included some tests. Ill see if I can dig it up if interested. I don't think you have the sequence quite right. Yes the barrel and slide are locked together. The lugs and the hood push the slide. I cant think of any point the barrel is hitting the slide after it pushes it. The barrel is tilting down and hitting the barrel bed( in a 1911) so, not exactly energy directed rearward. The recoil spring can have significant influence over your muzzle rise and dip. Im sure we agree these are over simplifications of all that goes on but its interesting to discuss just the same.

[fishing]

"Most of the felt recoil in a semi auto comes from the slide hitting the frame"

I suppose this could be true in part if the pistol has the wrong or a worn out recoil spring but the slide should not be wailing into the frame. Recoil comes in two initial pulses. The first being Newton's law, the bullet starting its travel(equal but opposite). The second is the bullet leaving the barrel causing a "kick" as the gas blasts back against the barrel crown.

is it your perspective then that in a properly maintained and sprung short recoil pistol (9mm glock for example) the recoil spring is never fully compressed during the firing cycle (all dead coils)?

I find that hard to believe.

[fishing]

The testing done by a university had the two impulses as the two distinct highest points of the recoil cycle. This mirrors my own theories on the subject. The projo is gone before the slide moves so this part of the recoil sequence has already occurred and been transferred through the pistol. 3 other 1911 smiths and myself did a deep dive mutli page discussion on the topic, had to be over 10 years ago. But it was a good discussion and included some tests. Ill see if I can dig it up if interested. I don't think you have the sequence quite right. Yes the barrel and slide are locked together. The lugs and the hood push the slide. I cant think of any point the barrel is hitting the slide after it pushes it. The barrel is tilting down and hitting the barrel bed( in a 1911) so, not exactly energy directed rearward. The recoil spring can have significant influence over your muzzle rise and dip. Im sure we agree these are over simplifications of all that goes on but its interesting to discuss just the same.

would love to see any further info you have on the subject.

were the recoil peaks during the following two portions of the cycle?

1 - when gun is fired and barrel is still locked (recoil essentially like a revolver at this point)
2 - when slide has compressed recoil spring to max and it's energy is acting through the recoil spring onto the frame where recoil spring terminates

[busdriver]

The testing done by a university had the two impulses as the two distinct highest points of the recoil cycle. This mirrors my own theories on the subject. The projo is gone before the slide moves so this part of the recoil sequence has already occurred and been transferred through the pistol. 3 other 1911 smiths and myself did a deep dive mutli page discussion on the topic, had to be over 10 years ago. But it was a good discussion and included some tests. Ill see if I can dig it up if interested.
I'm always interested in learning, much appreciated if you could find it.

That said, I don't buy it right now. The recoil spring isn't capable of instantly transferring the amount of momentum we're talking about here, if it were strong enough to do that, the slide wouldn't move. Springs need distance to do their thing.


I don't think you have the sequence quite right. Yes the barrel and slide are locked together. The lugs and the hood push the slide. I cant think of any point the barrel is hitting the slide after it pushes it. The barrel is tilting down and hitting the barrel bed( in a 1911) so, not exactly energy directed rearward.

Sorry for the wording, I meant the barrel hits the frame, then the slide hits the frame. In the 1911 example, the vertical impact surface stops the rearward barrel travel. It's not insignificant either, if the link stops the barrel, it'll eventually break the link. It's also why you have multiple pins holding a Glock locking block in the frame, it's what stops the barrel.


The recoil spring can have significant influence over your muzzle rise and dip. I'm sure we agree these are over simplifications of all that goes on but its interesting to discuss just the same.
No disagreement, but it's small potatoes compared to the recoil impulse when moving masses stop via impact. Incidentally, the dip is caused by the slide stopping in the forward position. The springs need distance to do their work.

Watch the video I linked. You can see all of this in the high speed video. The round fires with very little initial muzzle lift (the recoil spring does contribute, but not much, and it will continues to contribute just a bit throughout). Then the barrel drops down and hits the frame, and the muzzle starts to lift slowly. The muzzle continues to lift at that pace until the slide hits, then it lifts a lot. The vast majority of muzzle lift comes from the slide stopping.

[fishing]

"Most of the felt recoil in a semi auto comes from the slide hitting the frame"

I suppose this could be true in part if the pistol has the wrong or a worn out recoil spring but the slide should not be wailing into the frame. Recoil comes in two initial pulses. The first being Newton's law, the bullet starting its travel(equal but opposite). The second is the bullet leaving the barrel causing a "kick" as the gas blasts back against the barrel crown.


i'm curious about the above bolded part as well.

i think it is unclear trending on unlikely that the gases leaving the barrel and then acting back on the barrel/slide add much to recoil.

the gases in question would need to bounce off something in order to reverse direction and push on the barrel crown.

as the projectile is being pushed by the gases while it is still traveling down the barrel, at the moment of exiting the barrel, the projectile would be travelling faster than the gases no?

i believe the gases would slow down more rapidly than the projectile heading down range (which is slowing down itself), and as such it would primarily be displacing ambient air instead of hitting a "wall" (base of projo) and then bouncing back toward the shooter.

in the freeze frame below, the vast majority of gases ahead of the bullet were from leakage around the bullet before it exited the barrel.


http://i.imgur.com/2uaAzpS.png

[fishing]

No disagreement, but it's small potatoes compared to the recoil impulse when moving masses stop via impact. Incidentally, the dip is caused by the slide stopping in the forward position. The springs need distance to do their work.


i frequently have weird engineering thoughts...

before lasers or whatever replace pistols, I am hoping someone is able to design a pistol whose recoil spring compression and rebound is isolated and individually adjustable sort of like in a racecar's suspension. that would lead to very interesting advancements in felt recoil and dip.

[JAD]

.

the gases in question would need to bounce off something in order to reverse direction and push on the barrel crown.

That is almost exactly not how physics work.

[fishing]

That is almost exactly not how physics work.

lol - knew that was coming...

i am familiar, and i think it is clear that we arent talking about rocket engines etc haha


edit - to clarify, my comment was in direct response to "the gas blasts back against the barrel crown"

[busdriver]

I am hoping someone is able to design a pistol whose recoil spring compression and rebound is isolated and individually adjustable sort of like in a racecar's suspension. that would lead to very interesting advancements in felt recoil and dip.

I think that's where progressive & dual spring setups like STI's recoil master came from. Give the slide a nice shove to get it started then back off to keep it moving.

[fishing]

I think that's where progressive & dual spring setups like STI's recoil master came from. Give the slide a nice shove to get it started then back off to keep it moving.

cool cool

im thinking next level shit like a spring strong enough on compression to do it's job, but magically acting at a whole different rate during rebound to just send the slide forward fast enough to properly pickup/load a round and not be outran by a fast shooter.

[busdriver]

I'll add, the gas does contribute to recoil. They have mass and therefore momentum; there's likely also a fluid dynamics aspect of it as well, but I've long since forgotten that part of my engineering degree. I would hazard a hunch however, the gas cloud impinging on the muzzle crown has little effect worth mentioning.

[fishing]

was the strike industries glock comp question definitively settled?
I cant find any detailed pics of it online.

if not done already, i am wondering why a company hasn't made some sort of a bayonet mount barrel and comp already to get around laws on threaded pistol barrels.

[fishing]

I'll add, the gas does contribute to recoil. They have mass and therefore momentum; there's likely also a fluid dynamics aspect of it as well, but I've long since forgotten that part of my engineering degree. I would hazard a hunch however, the gas cloud impinging on the muzzle crown has little effect worth mentioning.

100% agree but it's impact (thrust?) in standard loadings of standard cartridges surely is minimal.

[busdriver]

100% agree but it's impact (thrust?) in standard loadings of standard cartridges surely is minimal.

There's a whole bunch of nerdy stuff here: http://yarchive.net/gun/pistol/1911_dynamics.html

Depending on what gas velocity you use, it could be 15% of the momentum from the projectile. I haven't been able to find a standard agreed upon gas velocity, everything from 1.5x the projectile muzzle velocity to 4000fps. I'd say it's a small but not insignificant contributor.

[shane45]

Lot to reply to. More than I have time for. So let me add this. The discussion I was engaged in to great depths was about slide movement by the time the projo leaves the barrel. (1911) It was the conclusion (there wasn't much high speed vid of it then like there is now that has pretty much confirmed it) the slide indeed hasn't moved when the bullet exits. So the question is, while the slide, frame and barrel are still in lock up, is it transmitting recoil as a whole? If the peak is at bullet exit before unlock then I think the answer would be yes.The results from the university from what I recall were that the peak of recoil was the second impulse of the blast against the crown. It was very interesting information and not what you would expect. Now, when the slide reaches the rear, is that more leverage than recoil? In regards to the spring question, it cant ever be fully compressed. If you have a pistol that is able to completely compress the spring it would be spring bind. That is bad. I must say my perspective is more from a 1911. Other pistols may operate differently.

[AdioSS]

cool cool

im thinking next level shit like a spring strong enough on compression to do it's job, but magically acting at a whole different rate during rebound to just send the slide forward fast enough to properly pickup/load a round and not be outran by a fast shooter.

It sounds like you're thinking that we need to figure out a way to attach shocks to our guns :D

This makes me wonder why aren't variable rate springs used in guns? 10-15 years ago beehive style springs started being used as aftermarket valve springs. I'm fairly sure a good bit of that was to reduce weight of the moving parts of the valvetrain, but at the same time it did weird things to harmonics that seemed to work very well.

[That Guy]

This makes me wonder why aren't variable rate springs used in guns?

https://www.gunsprings.com/COLT/1911%20GOV'T%20PISTOL/cID1/mID1/dID1#3

Look below conventional springs. ;)

[TiroFijo]

Sorry to burst some bubbles, but:

- Conventional springs are generally best for semiautos (no compensator or brake)
- The largest part of felt recoil is when the slide hits the frame. This won't change.

Take a look at:

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=2977&highlight=1911+dynamics

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3141&highlight=1911+dynamics

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmithing/recoil-spring-rate-affects-timing/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/compensated-45-vs-compensated-38/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmithing/recoil-reduction-ports-vs-compensator/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-compensators/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/compensators-pressure-gas/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/compensators-pressure-gas/