Which is harder, new IDPA Classifier or Classic?

[nwhpfan]

So I've never shot an IDPA match but I shoot the IDPA Classifier all the time. Or at least the old one. I shoot it at least a dozen times a year. I've found it a fun way to track my progress over the last couple years. I always* shoot it in my own "USPSA Version" since competitively I'm primarily a USPSA shooter, I shoot it from USPSA Production Gear and using USPSA targets. For what that is worth. I usually end up in the mid 70's with a PR just under 70.

With the "New" IDPA Classifier out I decided to give it a try and I video'd myself doing it. I shot this cold and used a holster and mag pouch I've never used before to be IDPA compliant.

I'm curious to know which one people think is harder. New or Classic?


https://youtu.be/X_fBKeyjI2g

[DAB]

got me beat. i shot it a few weeks ago, i'm still a SS.

[nwhpfan]

got me beat. i shot it a few weeks ago, i'm still a SS.

Which do you think is harder though?

[DAB]

old one. more shots at 20 yards (18 old, 6 new), more draws (which punishes those with slow draws). new one strikes me as more like a typical match, with either 6 or 12 shot strings (average of 9 shots per string). you still can't miss the head shots, and with the 1 second per point, it really punishes misses more. best i've shot for record was 130, which is 1.44 seconds/shot. that same ratio applied to the new one would put me at 104, just a few seconds from EX, but with more penalties for misses, i'm still mid-pack SS. best practice so far is 116. if i can get rid of mistakes, i think i can move up to EX this year. i should be able to shoot stages 1 and 2 clean, and try to limit stage 3 to 10 down or less. aim dammit! stay tuned.

[Jim Watson]

I haven't shot the "New Classifier" yet. After all, we just concluded the Comment Period yesterday, they might still change that and more before it is adopted.

But it LOOKS easier. Fewer 20 yard shots, fewer head shots, and no kneeling. (My arthritis thanks you.) I assume the intent is for Joyce Count scoring to keep scores in the same brackets.

[Mr_White]

I think the old one is harder. The new one weights the draw, SHO, and distance shooting proportionately less, and emphasizes reloads more. And just going by number of shots, the new one is 80% the size of the old one.

[rsa-otc]

I think the old one is harder. The new one weights the draw, SHO, and distance shooting proportionately less, and emphasizes reloads more. And just going by number of shots, the new one is 80% the size of the old one.

In other words....Classifier Lite???

Actually that's not a bad thing. If you ever shot the classifier as a club match it's a long day. In the past I would SO the match and my stage 1 & 2 score are in the master class area. By stage 3 my brain is toast and my scores reflect it. When just shooting it with a friend I litterly am nipping at the heals of Master class. Last year I posted my best score with only 9 pionts down.

[BN]

I haven't decided yet. I've recorded my IDPA Classifier scores every time I've shot it since 1997. ;)

Expert to start. Around 2000 I started to shoot Master scores in SSP. I added Master classifications in the other divisions until I got CDP in 2009 and I was a 5 gun Master. I have shot it in practice a few times every year. Scores lately have been very high Exp to low Master.

I have shot the new Classifier 5 or 6 times. I still haven't quite shot a Master score on it. I've dropped too many points. :(

I think the one second vs. 1/2 second scoring makes them hard to compare. You could drop a lot more points on the old one and still come out OK.

[rsa-otc]

I haven't decided yet. I've recorded my IDPA Classifier scores every time I've shot it since 1997. ;)

Expert to start. Around 2000 I started to shoot Master scores in SSP. I added Master classifications in the other divisions until I got CDP in 2009 and I was a 5 gun Master. I have shot it in practice a few times every year. Scores lately have been very high Exp to low Master.

I have shot the new Classifier 5 or 6 times. I still haven't quite shot a Master score on it. I've dropped too many points. :(

I think the one second vs. 1/2 second scoring makes them hard to compare. You could drop a lot more points on the old one and still come out OK.

That where I have hope for the new course.

Subconsciously I refuse to game it and drop points to gain that extra little bit of speed to push me over the hump into Master; preferring to whittle away at the points while running at the same or a little better speed while maintaining control.

[nwhpfan]

I thought the older one was fairly easy to shoot Master. As I began to train and work towards becoming the best shooter I could be I routinely shot it in the mid 70's. I shot it once in a flat out "hoser speed" mode and shot it in the 50's and even with penalties had a Master Class score. I shot it for "accuracy" mode, going for zero penalties and again came well within Master scoring. When I shot the new classifier I went for that "accuracy" mode because 1 second is very hard to recover from. That really didn't work out so well as I had 9 seconds in penalties but in the end I was about 5% inside of the Master score. The previous I would be 20%. Maybe if I shoot it again under a "match mode", or maybe I'd could cut a couple seconds by being more in tune to the stage requirements and I might come in much lower. My first impression is the new version is "harder." I look forward to shooting this more and more to see if my opinion changes because to be fair, I have shot the original a few dozen times so perhaps the familiarity lent itself to my impression it was easy...IDK. Very interested in others thoughts on this.

[nwhpfan]

You could drop a lot more points on the old one and still come out OK.

I agree. I once shot it in Steve Anderson "speed mode." My raw time was 52 seconds and I had 25 seconds in penalties. So even then it was 77 seconds.

[BN]

I think the one second scoring will throw people off for a while. Some people will shoot slower in an attempt to drop less points. This will interfere with their normal shooting ability and they will be slower and still drop points. I'm going to just shoot the way I always have and see what shakes out. ;)

Inaccurate shooters will have to learn accuracy without losing speed.

[freeidaho]

Inaccurate shooters will have to learn accuracy without losing speed.

Bill that is a quotable quote. I'm stealing it. Thank you!

[HopetonBrown]

I found the new version much easier. I hadn't shot in 6 weeks, did horrible, and still managed EX on the new classifier.

When I was regularly practicing the old classifier I would consistently make low EX.

I think the new one is easier because of the reduction in head shots at 7, and 20 yard shots.

[SoonerPast]

Several of us participated in a run of the new classifier this past weekend; everyone fell 1 or 2 levels. Maybe the ranks of the sandbaggers will swell next year.

[Mr_White]

Several of us participated in a run of the new classifier this past weekend; everyone fell 1 or 2 levels. Maybe the ranks of the sandbaggers will swell next year.

What do you attribute the drop to? The doubled penalty for points down? What ranks are we talking about - what did they shoot on the old one and what did they drop to on the new one?

Thanks!

[SoonerPast]

2 Master class dropped to Expert (one almost to SS), the rest of us from Expert to SS

The penalty points were the problem for everyone. For me, shooting ESP, I was pretty disciplined in Stage 1, 0 points down in 22 seconds. Stage 2 and 3, not so disciplined on accuracy.

Several of us also design stages. There was disagreement about what sort of changes we might make in design, next year. Some might tend toward simpler stages, some might lighten up on non-threat target placement, some might limit 15 to 20 yard target placements, etc.

The 2016 Indoor National match was on TV last night. That match did have some difficult target set-ups. Under the new rules, it will be interesting to see what sort of match that becomes.

[Stuffbreaker]

Several of us participated in a run of the new classifier this past weekend; everyone fell 1 or 2 levels. Maybe the ranks of the sandbaggers will swell next year.

Same at my club. The shooting challenges are easier, but the scoring penalties are harsh. An SSP MA had the best pistol score of ~100 shooters at two different new classifier matches in my area. He shot his carry gun in CCP and scored EX at 96.x (-30), just a few seconds slower than his best SSP run on the old classifier. Nobody else scored above SS in any division. At least one solid EX scored SS on two separate attempts.

I predict more shooters will be chasing match bumps this year.

[Gio]

Several of us participated in a run of the new classifier this past weekend; everyone fell 1 or 2 levels. Maybe the ranks of the sandbaggers will swell next year.

Were the master class shooters actually able to shoot a master class score on the old classifier or were they bumped at a major match?

The majority of master class IDPA shooters I have met could not actually shoot an M class score on the classifier. It is easy to get bumped to master at an IDPA major though because the requirements for a bump are so low. I think this is the reason that IDPA "masters" have a reputation for shooting at about a B level in USPSA.

[Mr_White]

Were the master class shooters actually able to shoot a master class score on the old classifier or were they bumped at a major match?

The majority of master class IDPA shooters I have met could not actually shoot an M class score on the classifier. It is easy to get bumped to master at an IDPA major though because the requirements for a bump are so low. I think this is the reason that IDPA "masters" have a reputation for shooting at about a B level in USPSA.

I wouldn't dispute that that's part of it because I am pretty unfamiliar with IDPA match bumps and I really don't know. But, back when I first started shooting USPSA and barely squeaked into B-class, I could routinely shoot the old IDPA Classifier at the Master level, at least in practice.

[rsa-otc]

Other than possibly David Ohlasso or James McGinty, none of the shooters I run with in IDPA have either seen someone shoot a Master class Classifier or know of someone how had. Most of the Masters I am familiar with other then David & James got their rank by a match bump.

I have yet to shoot the new classifier, hopefully the beginning of next month, so I have no real opinion of the new classifier harder or easier.

I will tell you that the new 1 second for each point down penalty has me rethinking may match strategy. Where I would not take a makeup shot for a -1 I am now giving it serious thought.

[Gio]

I wouldn't dispute that that's part of it because I am pretty unfamiliar with IDPA match bumps and I really don't know. But, back when I first started shooting USPSA and barely squeaked into B-class, I could routinely shoot the old IDPA Classifier at the Master level, at least in practice.

You shoot USPSA the hard way though :p.

FWIW, a couple years ago I switched 100% to USPSA right after I shot the IDPA classifier at a master level in a match (around ~89 seconds), and also initially classified as a B, but partly due to the way USPSA initially classifies shooters by including every score you shoot, no matter how wide of a range the scores are. After a handful of matches to roll off a couple low anchor scores, I easily jumped to A and then M in a short time period. I always felt like USPSA initial classification lags a bit behind where a shooter really stands as a result, which leads to the common analogy that USPSA B = IDPA M.

I most recently shot the old IDPA classifier in about 65 seconds last summer including about 4 points down for the course. I haven't spent any time on the new one yet, but just looking at the stages and knowing how my times would be, I would guess I would land in the 45-55 second range, so I don't think there would be a whole lot of difference in the margin I came in under M class scores. The change to 1 second per point down would certainly make it harder for shooters who drop more points to do well though.

[BN]

I'm going to just shoot the way I always have and see what shakes out. ;)

Inaccurate shooters will have to learn accuracy without losing speed.

I shot the Classifier twice today. I said I was just going to shoot the way I always have and see what shakes out. It's not very pretty. :( Too many points down. I guess I'll have to heed my own advice. ;)

[Leroy]

When I was B class in USPSA I shot a master IDPA classifier in SSP. I think I was like 1 second under the limit. Barely made it.

[That Guy]

I finally got to shoot the new classifier. I have to say, it felt a lot easier. Seemed a lot faster to shoot too - that ought to help running larger groups of people through the classifier.

[zeroflux]

I like the new Classifier better and think it is easier physically (not from a marksmanship or speed perspective) because of the changes to Stage 3 String 2. I think the requirement in the old Classifier to kneel behind the barrel added a physical fitness measure to the Classifier to worry about in addition to speed and accuracy. I think the new Classifier eliminates that and now has speed and accuracy as a measure through all stages. If you had bad knees or were out of shape and not very flexible, shooting while kneeling behind the barrel and worrying about cover lines I think added some factors that interfered with measuring speed and accuracy. I find that in my matches, there are two things that usually trip me up more than my actual shooting skills (speed & accuracy) and that is physical fitness and being a bit ADD, so in others words, having physically demanding positions such as shooting from low ports USPSA style or forgetting critical parts of stage instructions and collecting Procedurals.