Considering M&P 15

[iakdrago]

Anyone have any experience with m&p 15?

Much like my pistol upbringing, which started with the Makarov and the TT-30 pistol, my rifle experience is intertwined with soviet weapons. The AK is the only semi auto rifle that i have shot--granted i shot it a lot, both in 7.62x39 and 5.45x39. I now want to expand my platform familiarity/proficiency to the AR platform. Coming from the AK world, for ~800 you can buy a "top end" kiss rifle. As i understand, with the AR that might not be quite possible. The M&P 15 looks like it might be a nice mid level entry into the AR.

Things that push me towards S/W--they seem determined to make their M&P line work.

things that i'm looking for in the rifle:
--#1 Reliability, when i pull the trigger i want it to go bang (steel cased ammo included)
--I would like to have a flat top --if i'm going to go to the AR over the AK, i want to be able to mount my optics easily



Thoughts?
I saw that some of the M&P rifles did not have a forward assist-- is this a big deal?

[Al T.]

Pat Rogers has recently come out in favor of the S&Ws. He kicked S&W in the teeth pretty hard a few years back, so that is a sea change. If you don't know, Pat is almost unarguably the SME of the AR platform.


steel cased ammo included

Might be an issue. IME, steel cased ammo is loaded light, so some buffers/buffer springs may not work with steel cased ammo. I think it's going to be more dependent on the individual rifle than anything else.

After decades of firing M16E1s, M16A1s, M16A2s, M4s and MForgeries, IMHO, the forward assist is super for turning a minor malfunction into a major one. While at least Big Army still teaches SPORTS for malfunction reduction, many of us have seen the light and use Push/Pull, Rack, Roll and Re-engage. The forward assist (to steal a quote from Col. Cooper) is a solution to a non-existent question.

[iakdrago]

"use Push/Pull, Rack, Roll and Re-engage" would that technique require grabbing the bolt with your fingers? With a DI gun, would that be possible after sending many rounds down range? I apologize for my ignorance.

[Jay Cunningham]

Push/Pull refers to ensuring the magazine is seated. Otherwise you're manipulating the charging handle which is not directly connected to the bolt carrier group.

[Al T.]

Push/Pull, Rack, Roll and Re-engage

Push/Pull is to check magazine lock by pushing up on the magazine and pulling down. The weak hand then flies to the bolt charging handle (Rack) and pulls it to the rear in order to retract the bolt which opens the dust cover. (Roll) is the simultaneous tilting of the AR to the right side to allow the bad round or debris to fall out assisted by gravity. If the threat is still a threat, (Re-engage) press the trigger.

Other Pat wisdom (applies to more than ARs) is to use the acronym MEAL. MEAL is a check list of the things that keep an AR running.

M = magazines. Use good ones, don't marry'em. If one fails, hit it with a big hammer and drive on. I like Pmags and Pat also like Tango Down's offerings.

E = extractor. Not much of an issue on newer rifles, but it is a wear item and (IIRC) should be replaced at about the 5k mark. If you shoot steel case ammo, be prepared for a bit sooner replacement. Cheap item.

A = ammo. Use good ammo, crap ammo is crap. Ammo also changes every now and again. I had a bad experience with WWB which left me puzzled until I figured that the older stuff was GTG, new lots, not so much.

L - lubrication. ARs like wet. I'm not convinced that using expensive lube is needed, just use lube. I like the SLIP 2000 products, but (IMHO) the important part is keeping it wet. A quart of Mobil One synthetic works well and is darn cheep.

[iakdrago]

Push/Pull refers to ensuring the magazine is seated. Otherwise you're manipulating the charging handle which is not directly connected to the bolt carrier group.

Thanks Jay,

Have you seen many come through your classes? How do they perform?

Al T,

Can you point me to a review by Pat Rogers?

Thanks for your help guys, trying to broaden my commie ways.

[Jay Cunningham]

The M&P-15s seem like pretty good rifles. I've seen several, but I don't see the numbers that Rogers sees.

[BWT]

I used the forward assist to assure the carrier is fully seated after checking to make sure it fed the round in the magazine I inserted in the gun.

I'd say you could get a BCM close to that.

I feel like some kind of gear peddler, honestly, I do.

But, here's the way I see it, the things that drove me to go with my BCM Midlength, was, one, I decided I wanted a 16'' gun, and in a DI gun, you run the longest reliable gas length possible, it just is a good principle, at 16'' run a midlength, at 18'' run a rifle, Carbine at 14 and under, etc.

That's just how I see it, running at lower pressures makes it easier on the gun.

I liked that it has a chrome lined, HPT and MPI'd M16 BCG, I liked that it had all mil-spec components in the lower, an H lower, a life time warranty, chrome lined barrel, in 1/7 (I've never shot anything over 62 grain through it, full disclosure), with the correct height FSB. Mil-spec Buffer tube, properly staked key and castle nut.

Also, they have a lifetime warranty.

I just think, honestly... it's worth look.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-C

$980, or, if you're like me, and you're thrifty, and don't care about factory blemished products that pass QC and have a lifetime warranty.

You can save go with this.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM

and ($271)

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=UPR-BCM

(Midlength govt. profile, M16 BCG, and BCM Mod 4 charging handle)

For $850 for the exact same gun and just realize you don't need to trash the handguards and stock, and you don't pay for them up front, and you might have a ding on the lower.

I'd pay the extra $50.

That being said, S&W is a stand up company and my family owns...3 of their guns? Also an American made, lifetime warranty company.


http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311002 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311002)

Ironically, G&R's a S&W distributor... the BCM is still $50 cheaper.

I'm just saying.

ETA: If BCM doesn't have factory SBR's available by the time I'm in the place I'm buying one. I'll be buying a blemished lower, upper, etc., I just want a Factory SBR, but realistically... looking at it I could save $200 going that route, for literally, the *same* gun, not "oh they're made by the same parts contractor" the same gun by the same company, lol.

[Suvorov]

Which model are you considering?

I have had an M&P15A for about 3 years now and it is my primary carbine. It was my 3rd AR after a Colt A2 Sporter and a Bushmaster/DPMS frankengun build. All and all it has been a good carbine. The lower receiver was out of spec when I got it and it would not allow magazines to drop free, I sent it back to Smith and they replaced the receiver with no issues. The hand guards are the older narrow single shield CAR-15 hand guards which will heat up a little faster than the newer hand guards, not really an issue with semi-auto fire but I have replaced them with MOE equipment anyhow. I have a little over 2000 rounds down the pipe and have yet to have any malfunctions. The rifle made it through Paul Howe's carbine class with no issues - I can not fault it on its performance - the trigger is nice and smooth, carrier is staked well, fit and finish are as nice as any AR and accuracy is as good I can reasonably expect. All and all, it is a solid carbine.

I have not run any steel case through my carbine so I can not comment on its reliability there. As far as getting a flat top, all the M&P series rifles are flat tops, the basic carbine comes with a detachable carry handle but that can be removed if you want to mount optics.

I think the general consciousness on the M&Ps is that they are good ARs. Smith does not make them to exac military specifications, the barrel steel is a little more mild (and cheap), the rate of twist is 1:9, and a few other things are done to either lower cost or cater to the sportsman crowd. None of these things are for me deal breakers however. While they may not be the best ARs available, they are definitely better guns than the lower end of the AR world (Bushmaster, DPMS, CMMG, etc).

All this said, the price on Colt's basic carbine is under $1000 and there is no way I would purchase a M&P for the same price as a Colt unless you are living in a ban state. As mentioned, BCM is another great brand which I would purchase before an M&P for the same money.

[agent-smith]

I have an M&P15-T (with the factory Troy rail) that I purchased a few years ago (2008-ish) and I couldn't be happier with it.

I wanna say the barrel is 1:9" (although the current models are 1:8") and it has probably close to 10,000rds through it.

From what I understand, they have a reputation as "Tier 2 guns" but it has been every bit the equal of my BCMs and Colts.

[seabiscuit]

I don't understand the difference between a mid-length and carbine gas system. Could someone explain that? What are the advantages to each?

[orionz06]

I don't understand the difference between a mid-length and carbine gas system. Could someone explain that? What are the advantages to each?

Length of the gas tube. There are a few different lengths, pistol, carbine, mid length, intermediate, and rifle. Each one is further from the chamber. As you increase the distance from the chamber you decrease the pressure that will be in the tube. The bullet travels with the gas behind it and as it passes the gas ports some gas will travel down the tube to cycle the bolt. In the mid length vs carbine, the mid length gas tube is at a lower pressure and essentially smoother and supposedly better on parts. For some people it is a moot point. If buying from a reputable maker I'm not sure there are issues one way or the other. I would gauge my decision on how I wanted to configure the rifle over the gas tube length.

[seabiscuit]

Thanks. I've been looking at the DDM4, either V1 or V3. V1 is carbine length but has a rail that extends past the front sight. V3 is mid-length. Not sure it matters.

[iakdrago]

If Daniel Defense/BCM can reliably cycle steel ammo--i would be willing to spend the extra cash, as the gains in training cost would ofset the initial money dump. Would BCM/DD cycle wolf/other steel cased amo?

IAK

[orionz06]

Depends on what you want to mount. I prefer a light mounted at 12:00 or very close to it. The DDM4V1 gives you room for an X300/TLR-1, the DDM4V3 does not have that room. I would go with either the V1 and mount things forward of the FSB or a mid length with a lo-pro gas block and a rail mounted front sight (DDM4V5).

Now all of this goes out the window if you won't need a light mounted on the gun or you don't desire a free floated barrel.

[Jay Cunningham]

If Daniel Defense/BCM can reliably cycle steel ammo--i would be willing to spend the extra cash, as the gains in training cost would ofset the initial money dump. Would BCM/DD cycle wolf/other steel cased amo?

IAK

Honestly I think your hang-up on steel case ammo is quite limiting, for no real good reason.

Some ARs eat up steel case, some don't like it. You're better off with a true mil-spec 5.56mm chamber, though, that's fer sure. Either way you'd be well advised to clean your chamber area more aggressively when shooting steel case ammo.

[Jay Cunningham]

You may want to consider an M&P-15R in 5.45mm and rock on with your bad self.

[Suvorov]

I recently was tempted with going with a mid-length gas system for my son's AR build. The various functional benefits of the longer gas system can be had in a well built carbine system by proper sizing of the gas port use of proper buffer so I don't personally consider it a big issue from the function/reliability standpoint. However the midlength system has two big advantages from my POV.

1) Longer sight radius - the carbine length system using standard front sight blocks is a little short for me to get a real good sight picture, that extra 2" is a help. Of course if you are running optics this is a non issue.

2) More real estate on the handguards for all your various ninja gear as well as allowing you to gain a more forward support hand grip on the weapon. Again this can be mitigated if you are running a longer tube and a low profile gas block on a carbine length system.

There is no real advantage of a carbine length system as long as you are using 14.5+ inch barrels (remember the system was designed for shorter barrels than what we are used to on the civilian side) other than that it is the standard - made my more manufacturers and has more stuff available for it. Off the top of my head, I can think of only a couple manufacturers of mid-length systems. All of the S&W and Colts I'm aware of are carbine systems.

In the end I went to another carbine system since it better fit my intended purpose and I could get the carbine upper for about $100 less than the mid-length. All things being equal however, I'd go with a mid-length gun over a carbine gun.

[iakdrago]

Thank you for all your help. I decided to go with a top manufacturer like BCM or DD. I figure that if i'm going to try and switch to an AR i want to start at the starting line not 100 yards back. You get what you paid for. Also i will be going with the mid length gas system due to the benefits described above. Going to wait till Christmas/tax return and pull the trigger (literally).

As far as sights, if i have fixed front sight, and a fold able rear sight, will i still be able to mount a cmr scope? Primarily it will have a red dot on it, but for those range trips where i do want to test the accuracy--will having a fixed front sight create the need to mount the optic too high for a proper cheek weld?

[seabiscuit]

I would go with either the V1 and mount things forward of the FSB or a mid length with a lo-pro gas block and a rail mounted front sight (DDM4V5).

Thanks for the advice. I'm thinking I'll mount a light at 8 or 9 o'clock, so mounting in front of the front sight isn't an issue. And it'd be nice to be able to remove iron sights easily if I want to run a magnified optic for competition or hunting.

[ffhounddog]

All my serious AR-15s have fixed front sites. Well other than my SPR. If you run a 5.556 chamber you will be able to use steel cased ammo.

[agent-smith]

Thank you for all your help. I decided to go with a top manufacturer like BCM or DD. I figure that if i'm going to try and switch to an AR i want to start at the starting line not 100 yards back. You get what you paid for. Also i will be going with the mid length gas system due to the benefits described above. Going to wait till Christmas/tax return and pull the trigger (literally).

Wise choice; while I absolutely love my S&W, my "go-to" ARs are BCMs and Colts. (I have too many ARs)



As far as sights, if i have fixed front sight, and a fold able rear sight, will i still be able to mount a cmr scope? Primarily it will have a red dot on it, but for those range trips where i do want to test the accuracy--will having a fixed front sight create the need to mount the optic too high for a proper cheek weld?

You'll be fine using a magnified optic with a fixed front sight; you might have a bit of a "haze" at the bottom of the reticle but the optic will work just fine.

[SecondsCount]

Add me to the list of midlength fans, both for longevity and reliability reasons.

FWIW, I have a BCM 16" midlength with a standard weight buffer and it will not run cheap steel ammo. I know Herters and another brand a friend tried did not have enough energy to eject the cases. We did not try Wolf or Tula. For me the steel case is a non-issue as I reload my own and make far better ammo at less cost.

[seabiscuit]

All my serious AR-15s have fixed front sites. Well other than my SPR. If you run a 5.556 chamber you will be able to use steel cased ammo.

What's the advantage to the standard barrel mounted front sight over a fixed rail mounted sight?

[fuse]

What's the advantage to the standard barrel mounted front sight over a fixed rail mounted sight?

The standard front sight is simply known to be the most secure gas block there is. So much so that some folks saw off the sight and keep the gas block and then run an extended rail over everything.

I personally have done ok with my set screw gas blocks, but truthfully have not run my ARs all that hard.

[orionz06]

What's the advantage to the standard barrel mounted front sight over a fixed rail mounted sight?

Arguably strength. I have seen zero evidence of strength comparisons between a pinned FSB vs a pinned lo-pro and a rail mount sight. That being said I would certainly speculate that the FSB is stronger but a lo-pro under a rail is significantly harder to move, leaving the only issue left being strength of the sights and I'm not sure the FSB holds its zero much longer under any kind of impact or force. Again though, all speculation.

[ffhounddog]

I am a little biased too. Have had a EOTECH shit on me in a bad sandy place and used the sight more for a Ghost ring until I got to covor. It works for an emergency. The issued rear Matach is decent but the hole that was contracted for is too dang small for close in work (the 300-500 ring in the A2 sight) but you do have the frontsight you could use with a Aimpoint or Eotech as a ghost ring in a pinch. Granted my Aimpoint CompM2 went squirelly on me a week ago so I am not stating that Eotechs are bad or Aimpoints are the bomb diggity.

[Al T.]

used the sight more for a Ghost ring

Works like a charm out to at least 75 yards.

As for optics and a FSB, one of mine has a 1x4 scope and you can see the FSB at one power if you look for it. Otherwise just ignore it, it's a non-issue.

In my limited experience with steel case ammo, it's loaded light. A high quality AR with the proper 5.56 chamber and the proper 5.56 gas port, may not run as well with steel as a lessor rifle with a larger (over gassed) gas port. Strangely enough, my Tundra 4x4 pick up truck doesn't run well on kerosene either. So I don't run kerosene in my truck. :p

[BWT]

If Daniel Defense/BCM can reliably cycle steel ammo--i would be willing to spend the extra cash, as the gains in training cost would ofset the initial money dump. Would BCM/DD cycle wolf/other steel cased amo?

IAK

I'd say look for a 5.56mm chamber, also chrome lining does help.

Mine has never had an issue with one exception, I had a stuck case, at about 500-600 rounds without cleaning.

I'd look into an M16 bore brush, and just make sure you scrub it enough to see the chrome lining every once in awhile, thoroughly lubricate it, and bring a cleaning rod to the range for the "What if".

[Little Creek]

I just bought an M&P15 Sport. It is my first AR-15 style rifle/carbine. I chose it because of the value, $650. I liked the idea of no forward assist, no dust cover, and a glove size trigger guard as a permanent part of the lover receiver. Mine came with the MagPul BUIS. I like it so much I also bought the M&P15-22.

I have a couple of questions. I am thinking of getting a MagPul hand guard. Are these hand guards easy to install? I am also thinking of replacing the front sight with a gas block w/rail and a folding front sight. What do you guys recommend for that? I am LH. I am also eventually thinking of an ambi cocking lever latch, ambi safety, and maybe even an ambi bolt carrier release. What do you guys recommend for that? Eventually I will replace stock with one that has a quick detach ambi sling attachment. These accessories will probably take place over a period of months with the hand guard coming first. I had an EOTech 512 laying around. It just fit in front of the rear BUIS and I like it, especially the cowitness.

I am looking for some opinions and some advice. Thanks in advance.

[Suvorov]

I just bought an M&P15 Sport. It is my first AR-15 style rifle/carbine. I chose it because of the value, $650. I liked the idea of no forward assist, no dust cover, and a glove size trigger guard as a permanent part of the lover receiver. Mine came with the MagPul BUIS. I like it so much I also bought the M&P15-22.

I have a couple of questions. I am thinking of getting a MagPul hand guard. Are these hand guards easy to install? I am also thinking of replacing the front sight with a gas block w/rail and a folding front sight. What do you guys recommend for that? I am LH. I am also eventually thinking of an ambi cocking lever latch, ambi safety, and maybe even an ambi bolt carrier release. What do you guys recommend for that? Eventually I will replace stock with one that has a quick detach ambi sling attachment. These accessories will probably take place over a period of months with the hand guard coming first. I had an EOTech 512 laying around. It just fit in front of the rear BUIS and I like it, especially the cowitness.

I am looking for some opinions and some advice. Thanks in advance.


The MagPul MOE hand guards are nice kit and super easy to install. They offer you the ability to mount some rails easily and I find them a little more comfortable to shoot with than the standard handguards. They are only single lined, but I haven't had any issues with them getting to hot (then again, I'm not all that into mag dumps).

The M&P15 Sport is a nice little entry rifle as you mentioned. For the price it gives someone new to the AR world (or just wanting a little rifle) a basic good quality rifle for a low price. While some purists bemoan its lack of "mil spec" features, it is what it is and doesn't pretend to be something it isn't. It will serve you well in most rolls you will have for it. That said, if you wanted to start going the route of installing low profile gas blocks and folding front sights, then why didn't you go that route in the beginning? Rest assured, the lack of dust cover, forward assist, and trigger guard were cost saving measures on the part of Smith and NOT reliability enhancement features. You are now taking a nice Honda Civic and trying to turn it into an Acura NSX and in the end you will end up spending more money and headache than if you had just got yourself something like a Colt Monolithic carbine to begin with. As far as the other stuff, why not take a while and shoot what you have and figure out what works for you and what you need? Forget what all the cool kids have on TV or at the range, shoot your rifle slick, with only those accessories you really feel you need (sling, optic, maybe a light rail) and then as you progress in your familiarity with your rifle and further define its "mission" you can accessorize it as needed. If after some time with your rifle you decide you really need all that cool stuff, then you can purchase another rifle and have your Sport as a spare/backup etc, or get an upper that has the features you want.

- Are you left handed? Unless you are left handed, I wouldn't waste money on an ambidextrous safety, bolt release, mag release etc it is just more crap to get in the way. If you are left handed, then might be worth your while. I have heard mixed reviews on some of the stuff.
- Get a good 2 point sling like the Viking Tactics or Blue Force. They are certainly what the kool kids use and simply mount to the hardware your rifle already has (no need for a new end plate). The standard M16 sling also works well for most needs.
- The BCM charging handles are a decent upgrade but not really all that needed unless you get yourself in the habit of charging the rifle on only one side of the handle (as opposed to the old school method of using the index and middle finger to charge the rifle) or you have a massive optic that prevents you from easily reaching the handle.

I know it gets old, but really the best accessories you can buy for your AR are a sling, optic (and some will even debate this), couple cases of ammo, and a good training class.

[Little Creek]

Thanks Suvorov for your comments and opinions. The dot in the EOTech is right in line with the top of the front sight. Changing out the front sight for a gas block with rail and a folding front sight is way down the road. I just like the sight picture I get with the EOTech on the M&P15-22 when I remove the sights. The 22 has the EOTech that uses the N batteries. Both EOTech's cowitness the same.

I am left handed. I never used an AR-15 style rifle in my old LE job. I have been retired from LE for 10 years. We used "gun box condition" on all our long guns: "off safe, off cock, chamber empty, and magazine loaded. In this case, just pull the charging handle with the index and middle finger and you are good to go.

[Odin Bravo One]

.
The standard M16 sling also works well for most needs.

.

I have to respectfully disagree with that statement. If all you want to do is carry it around, a parade sling will work great. If you plan on actually shooting the rifle, then forget the parade sling and get a VTAC, BFG Vickers, or TRICON sling.

As for the lefty controls.......some are worth while, some are not. Charging handle that allows you to run it lefty is a benefit and worth looking into, as is an ambi-selector. Other than that, I'd leave it as is. Many a lefty can run an AR very efficiently without lefty controls beyond those listed.

Since neither are really "serious" rifles, I won't rake them too far over the coals for the optics, but be careful falling in love with the MagPul flip up sights. They don't lock in the up position, and I have seen them fail to return to the same position, or even deploy to the right position due to minimal debris in the mechanism. I have them on my M&P 22, but I won't put them on a gun I trust my life to as they are just way too unreliable and flimsy.

Keep us informed as to how this economy rifle performs. I am interested in seeing what it can do in terms of accuracy and reliability. I know a lot of people who don't want to drop $2k on an upper end AR, and it would be nice if this proves to be a low cost entry level AR option.

[Suvorov]

I have to respectfully disagree with that statement. If all you want to do is carry it around, a parade sling will work great. If you plan on actually shooting the rifle, then forget the parade sling and get a VTAC, BFG Vickers, or TRICON sling.

Agreed, but it seems for many, carrying the rifle around is about the only thing they need a sling for.


Thanks Suvorov for your comments and opinions. The dot in the EOTech is right in line with the top of the front sight. Changing out the front sight for a gas block with rail and a folding front sight is way down the road. I just like the sight picture I get with the EOTech on the M&P15-22 when I remove the sights. The 22 has the EOTech that uses the N batteries. Both EOTech's cowitness the same.

I am left handed. I never used an AR-15 style rifle in my old LE job. I have been retired from LE for 10 years. We used "gun box condition" on all our long guns: "off safe, off cock, chamber empty, and magazine loaded. In this case, just pull the charging handle with the index and middle finger and you are good to go.

Little Creed - I hope I didn't come off snarky here, just trying to save you money chasing cool guy things to add that don't need adding. Knowing more about your background it seems that you are on the right track.

Concerning the optic co-witness, I don't run an EoTech but in the Aimpoint world I like to mount the optic so that the front sight post sits in the lower 1/3 of my field of view. This keeps it out of the way of my dot, but allows me to quickly shift down to it if I need or want to run irons. I can't say 100% for certain, but I would imagine this is possible in the EoTech world - I know they sell risers for the EoTech. It wouldn't clear your field of view totally, but it would save you a lot of money over installing a new gas block and purchasing flip up sights.

I have a little experience with ambidextrous safeties from trying to deal with the asinine laws in Kalifornia. There are basically 3 types I'm aware of. The first is simply a safety that looks identical to the one you already have, but instead mounts on the right side of the receiver for left handed shooters. Often times this is the exact same part and is interchangeable. Newer Colts have this feature, your Smith might have it as well. The second type is the most common and simply has an identical lever that bolts into the selector on the right side. This is what I have used and it works OK, but the large lever on the non-firing side can get in the way of a comfortable grip. It bothers some people more than others. The 3rd type is similar to the second, only the lever that is on the non-firing side is shorter than the firing side lever. This keeps it out of the way of getting a good grip. I would say if you don't care about keeping the rifle ambidextrous the first type is the best, if you want to have a lever on both sides, the 3rd is the way to go.

Finally about training. I realize you are former LE and have received a lot of good training. I received more small arms training than your average Army Officer does (which doesn't say much). Still, with every class I take I am constantly amazed with how much I don't know, forgot, or things have changed so it is something I recommend to everyone.

I would also love to hear how this little carbine does for you, especially if you put a couple thousand real rounds through it. I have recommended this rifle to a lot of co-workers, some of who actually follow my advice. I think the concept is solid and Smith does make a good carbine that will meet the needs of 99% of the shooters out there (myself included) for a very respectable price.

[Al T.]

I am also thinking of replacing the front sight with a gas block w/rail and a folding front sight.

I wouldn't do it. Having a fixed front sight is an advantage to me. On my semi-serious rifle, I have the front sight, an Aimpoint and a Surefire Nitrolon G2 in a VTAC mount.

If my Aimpoint croaks, it becomes a giant "ghost ring" for the front sight. If I have an over 30 yards (or so) engagement, I put a spot of white paint on the FSB. That spot of white paint (paint pen from Wally World) is a witness mark for me. I adjust the front sight so that the lower edge of the Aimpoint tube slightly obscures the dot and I'm good to go to a hundred yards or so.

[Little Creek]

Thanks for all the comments and advice. I will keep you posted. It may take a few weeks to wring out this M&P15 Sport. I think the main thing I need on this rifle is a lot more range time. I will be shooting mostly 62 grain 5.56. I got several new MagPul 30 round PMags in a trade. Are they as good as any and better than most mags on the market? Does the Ranger floor plate for the PMag help when shooting prone? I heard of a RRA rear sight mounted on the back of a riser/rail. I know of at least one Federal Agency that uses this set up with their EOTech sights. I might eventually try one of those, in lieu of messing with the front sight.

[Al T.]

Pmags are very good to go. IMHO they are much better than metal magazines. H&K magazines are fairly worthless if you bump into any.

[Tamara]

If I have an over 30 yards (or so) engagement, I put a spot of white paint on the FSB. That spot of white paint (paint pen from Wally World) is a witness mark for me. I adjust the front sight so that the lower edge of the Aimpoint tube slightly obscures the dot and I'm good to go to a hundred yards or so.
Wait, why has nobody shown me this trick? :confused:

This post is worthless without pictures!

[orionz06]

Pmags are very good to go. IMHO they are much better than metal magazines. H&K magazines are fairly worthless if you bump into any.

Why might they be better? On average a good metal mag, GI mag, will run you $9, on average a P-mag runs $13, or 144% more. At an almost 3:2 ratio, why would you not get GI mags considering them to be a consumable item? Not a knock on P-mags, I have some and use them, but they do not do anything better for me. Since they don't do anything better my money goes towards more mags. That is not to say they won't do anything better for you though. They do present some issues of durability in certain colors and their failure mode is catastrophic.

[Al T.]

They do present some issues of durability in certain colors and their failure mode is catastrophic.

Hadn't read anything about colors issues. But, the catastrophic failure mode is a good thing IMHO. I have a couple of old GI magazines that have minute cracks in the feed lips. The way I discovered this was when the rifle malf'ed (double feed). I like that a visual inspection of the Pmags is adequate.

Tamara, I am just now figuring out a cell phone and pictures are beyond my mentally challenged grasp. I do have a camera that needs to go back for repair. Maybe in 2012.... :D

[Jay Cunningham]

FDE and FG PMAGs seem a bit less durable than OD and especially black.

[Al T.]

Very interesting. Thank you!

[Suvorov]

FDE and FG PMAGs seem a bit less durable than OD and especially black.

I have heard this before. Do you know if this material weakness also applies to MagPulls handguards, buttstocks, and such?

[Odin Bravo One]

All magazines are weak. That is why magazines are the weak link in the system. They break. Understand that magazines are a consumable item and move on. GI mags break. PMags break. H&K Mags break. The other cheapo knock off hunk of shit mags break. When that happens, replace them with whatever flavor of the week HSLD magazine has the biggest color glossy advertisement, suits your fancy, happens to be on sale, is what the cool kids use, whatever your purchase criteria happens to be, and don't worry too much about them until they need replaced again.

If they are a serious manufacturer of magazines, I have them. Hundreds of them in most cases. They all work fine for what they were designed for. Until they don't. Then they get thrown in the garbage, and replaced with a new one. I can get usually get at least a year out of a single magazine, and it doesn't matter who made it. About a year of hard use, and it's time to go.

[Al T.]

Sean, serious question, no snark.

Do you mark your magazines with a date? Just wondered what your trash barrel occupation criteria was composed of - me I tend to go with malfunctions, but I am a civilian these days.

[Tamara]

GI mags break. PMags break. H&K Mags break. The other cheapo knock off hunk of shit mags break.
Deep truth is buried between the lines, there. ;)

[Suvorov]

I can get usually get at least a year out of a single magazine, and it doesn't matter who made it. About a year of hard use, and it's time to go.

Sean M, how many rounds here are we talking about? A pogue like myself who sees 1000 rounds a year if lucky and am not dropping them on the hard rocks of far off Dirkadirkastan can probably get by with longer?

[Odin Bravo One]

I replace my mags once per year. Usually it corresponds with a return home. Out with the old, in with the new. If the old ones are still working, I will keep them in the "training" pile, and use them for training or practice on days or at locations where the conditions are hard on mags (concrete, asphalt, rocks, mud, sand). This way I do not have to concern myself with premature aging of the magazines. Especially useful for long stress courses that require a full load out. I can usually get between 2500-4000 rounds per mag through normal use over the course of a year before I start seeing issues.

I used to number my mags. So I knew which one was having issues. I used to give a mag 2-3 chances before it hit the garbage, but found that once the mag was tagged, it was going to the garbage in the next 2-3 uses anyway......why wait? Once the feedlips spread, it's done. No point in hanging onto it any longer to watch the same malfunction again.

If a mag got replaced early, say halfway through the year because it was a Monday/Friday mag, it still gets swapped out for new ones when I get home. I generally have 10 working magazines, and carry the same number of spares buried in a gear bag somewhere. Even at $13 per mag, that is $130 per year, to get through 25k-40k rounds, depending on the year and schedule. If you are going through that much ammo, and buying that ammo.......the $130 per year on magazines is chump change. And if you have that kind of money to blow on ammo, let me know......I'll be happy to provide quality 1 on 1 carbine instruction for a modest fee......using your ammo of course.

[Al T.]

Got it. That makes sense. I did something like that when I deployed.

[Little Creek]

Just giving an update on the M&P 15 Sport. I got a .3" EOTech riser. That puts the front sight in the lower third of the EOTech's screen. I like that better. I installed a MagPul MOE handgard and a MOE+ grip. I like those two things better than OE. Considering I already had the EOTech 512, I have spent less than $100 in accessories. I orderd a Stag Arms LH selector today for $15.91. So far I have been running some Brownells 30 round and 20 round magazines along with one 30 round Colt magazine from the early 1980s. I have put only 270 rounds through the gun so far. I had one malfunction with one of the 30 metal magazines. It was a failure to feed with two rounds left in the magazine. I think it was with the old Colt magazine. I noticed the Colt follower would tilt all over the place. The later Brownells magazines would still tilt but not as bad as the old Colt magazine. The later model Browells magazines had yet a different follower that tilted less than the older Brownells magazines. I recently got 9 Magpul 30 round PMAGs with followers that do not tilt at all. I wonder if the metal magazines are worth upgrading to Magpul followers. What do you guys think? I think I would be shooting 5.56mm carbine more if not for the M&P 15-22. That 22 rim fire AR is a lot of cheap fun.

[WDW]

I run an M&P15OR. I have a few thousand through it and it has been 100% so far. It is very accurate and makes for a good AR at a good price. I have friends with them as well and they are having the same experience. Stay away from that POS "sport" model though. It is not a real AR. No chrome liningm cast upper/lower recievers, BCG is neither HP or MP tested etc, etc, etc, and was made for mall ninjas to hang stuff from, do barrel rolls with, and shoot at bin Laden targets with while carrying eight Tarus pistols and 17 Cold Steel knives while draped in color coordinated 5.11 apparel.

[Suvorov]

I have a few thousand through it and it has been 100% so far. It is very accurate and makes for a good AR at a good price. I have friends with them as well and they are having the same experience. Stay away from that POS "sport" model though. It is not a real AR. No chrome liningm cast upper/lower recievers, BCG is neither HP or MP tested etc, etc, etc, and was made for mall ninjas to hang stuff from, do barrel rolls with, and shoot at bin Laden targets with while carrying eight Tarus pistols and 17 Cold Steel knives while draped in color coordinated 5.11 apparel.

While certainly a humorous picture in the mind, I disagree. The Sport was meant to be an inexpensive entry level AR for the "masses" ranging from guy wanting a cheap M4 to a Fudd wanting to dip their toe into the world of black rifles. I see it as Smith's AR based answer to the Mini 14. While it does not meet the technical specs of top end rifles, it is perfectly suited for its sporting rifle role. I would rather see the M&P Sport do well than some of the more disreputable manufacturers in the hands of new AR shooters.

[WDW]

While certainly a humorous picture in the mind, I disagree. The Sport was meant to be an inexpensive entry level AR for the "masses" ranging from guy wanting a cheap M4 to a Fudd wanting to dip their toe into the world of black rifles. I see it as Smith's AR based answer to the Mini 14. While it does not meet the technical specs of top end rifles, it is perfectly suited for its sporting rifle role. I would rather see the M&P Sport do well than some of the more disreputable manufacturers in the hands of new AR shooters.

You are right. The M&P Sport was meant as inexpensive foray in black rifledom. It would make a serviceable varmint/plinking gun for people who shoot 100rds a year. But I am jaded because I always see people drooling over them saying, "Oh these must be mispriced" & "These are just as good as anything" or "If I had that and my Taurus 1911 & some MRE's, I could go over to Afraqistanbul & find Bin Laden myself". People's misconceptions about quality & implementation really irk me for some reason these days. I just get tired of being bashed as a brand nazi, on other forums, when someone asks about "which AR" and I recommend brands like Bravo Company, Noveske, Colt, & Daniel Defense and then get a reply like, "Well my M&P Sport is just as good as any of those, I put 16 rds through it last year without a single malfunction!"

[Suvorov]

You are right. The M&P Sport was meant as inexpensive foray in black rifledom. It would make a serviceable varmint/plinking gun for people who shoot 100rds a year. But I am jaded because I always see people drooling over them saying, "Oh these must be mispriced" & "These are just as good as anything" or "If I had that and my Taurus 1911 & some MRE's, I could go over to Afraqistanbul & find Bin Laden myself". People's misconceptions about quality & implementation really irk me for some reason these days. I just get tired of being bashed as a brand nazi, on other forums, when someone asks about "which AR" and I recommend brands like Bravo Company, Noveske, Colt, & Daniel Defense and then get a reply like, "Well my M&P Sport is just as good as any of those, I put 16 rds through it last year without a single malfunction!"

No man, I truly get where you are coming from. Nothing wrong with budget rifles as they fill the needs of 90% of the shooters out there, but a budget rifle is what it is and it is not "just as good."

[Odin Bravo One]

I just get tired of being bashed as a brand nazi, on other forums, when someone asks about "which AR" and I recommend brands like Bravo Company, Noveske, Colt, & Daniel Defense and then get a reply like, "Well my M&P Sport is just as good as any of those, I put 16 rds through it last year without a single malfunction!"

Anyone who has shot the AR platform for more than the above mentioned 16 rounds will not label you a brand Nazi. Your recommendations have been proven as hard use rifles.

[Little Creek]

The S&W M&P15 Sport is my first MSR or AR-15 style rifle or what have you. I like S&W products, I have many of their revolvers, and a couple of their pistols. I have enjoyed myself so far. I like the lack of a forward assist. I consider a forward assist to be a negative. I like the idea of no dust cover. I have never had a weapon with a dust cover in my life. I like the oversize finger guard. I like the price. It is more like a Chevy than a BMW. I do not consider it to be a "high end" mil spec weapon. Once I have more experience with this platform and get it set up like I like it, I might buy a "high end" M4gery. That being said this weapon suits my needs just fine at this point in time. It is what is it is and I like it. You may not hear from me again on this topic.

[Suvorov]

I like the price. It is more like a Chevy than a BMW. I do not consider it to be a "high end" mil spec weapon. Once I have more experience with this platform and get it set up like I like it, I might buy a "high end" M4gery. That being said this weapon suits my needs just fine at this point in time. It is what is it is and I like it. You may not hear from me again on this topic.

Please, I myself and probably everyone here are very interested in you keeping us updated on your experiences with your M&P Sport. As I have mentioned, I have recommended this rifle to others as a entry AR and others have as well. It would be great for you to run a couple thousand rounds through it and even take a training class with one if you so desire.

What many here take issue with is when people buy a lower end AR and then imply that they are just as good without having real knowledge on why their gun cost less or how it will operate under real harsh conditions. You haven't taken that route and you shouldn't be made to feel embarrassed for purchasing your rifle. Smith makes good guns and your rifle will either a) do everything you ask of it from sport to field and serve you well or b) will be found lacking in some manner after which you have discovered for yourself you needs in an AR type rifle. Either way the rifle will have served its purpose.

While I am a fan of the high end guns, I know many who own them and never use them. To that end, other than collector purposes, they have wasted some money. Others will buy "good enough" guns and shoot the piss out of them and build far more competence than those guys with their KAC safe queen ever will. In the end, who is better off?

This is not to say that one should buy a crap gun that has a reputation for failure, nor is it to say that an M&P Sport (or GOD FORBID a Mini14) is "just as good", but very often a lower priced rifle is "good enough."

Anyhow, Just my opinion on the matter... :rolleyes:

[G60]

Add me to the list of midlength fans, both for longevity and reliability reasons.

FWIW, I have a BCM 16" midlength with a standard weight buffer and it will not run cheap steel ammo. I know Herters and another brand a friend tried did not have enough energy to eject the cases. We did not try Wolf or Tula. For me the steel case is a non-issue as I reload my own and make far better ammo at less cost.

Forgive me for possibly sidetracking this thread, but is this a known problem with BCM middies? This isn't the first time I've heard them having trouble with lower powered ammo. I've got a 16" bcm mid length that I'm going to start trainjng with more. I've run about 500 rounds of xm193 and Remington .223 through it so far without any failures, but hearing about possible problems from more than one source concerns me.

[Caboose]

Forgive me for possibly sidetracking this thread, but is this a known problem with BCM middies? This isn't the first time I've heard them having trouble with lower powered ammo. I've got a 16" bcm mid length that I'm going to start trainjng with more. I've run about 500 rounds of xm193 and Remington .223 through it so far without any failures, but hearing about possible problems from more than one source concerns me.

There is a warning right on the BCM site saying not to use low pressure ammo with their middies. If you keep up the diet of xm193, you should be fine.

[Al T.]

but is this a known problem with BCM middies

It's a known issue for uppers that are regulated for 5.56 pressures. In my mid-length, PMC and MK318 have a severe POA/POI shift at 50 yards, which I think is due to the MK318 being both 5.56 and loaded for a short barrel.

[Suvorov]

It's a known issue for uppers that are regulated for 5.56 pressures. In my mid-length, PMC and MK318 have a severe POA/POI shift at 50 yards, which I think is due to the MK318 being both 5.56 and loaded for a short barrel.

Is this something that can be remedied with a lighter carbine buffer (I would assume most guys savvy enough to run a middy are also running an H buffer)? Also regarding PMC (bronze), I find that stuff is definitely underpowered compared to XM193 or even standard Federal 55gr 223 loadings.

[SecondsCount]

Is this something that can be remedied with a lighter carbine buffer (I would assume most guys savvy enough to run a middy are also running an H buffer)? Also regarding PMC (bronze), I find that stuff is definitely underpowered compared to XM193 or even standard Federal 55gr 223 loadings.

As I said in my post, I run a standard weight buffer, not an H buffer, and still had issues with cheap ammo.

If I were to run a lot of the cheap stuff then I would open up the gas port and run an H buffer with the 5.56 loads, and a standard buffer with the steel ammo. I would bet that a BCM carbine length system would eat the cheap stuff just fine.

[Little Creek]

Update on the M&P15 Sport, my first M4gery, an entry level carbine. I still like the fact of no forward assist, no dust cover, and the built in oversize trigger guard. I just added the MagPul ACS butstock, I love that stock. I have the MagPul MOE+ grip, like the hand filling overmolded rubber. Have the MOE handguard. Just added the "Grip Pod" ( I went to a gun show yesterday). Since I am LH I replaced the selector with a LH selector from STAG Arms. Mine came with the MBUIS rear sight. I like that. I put a .3 EOTech riser under a 512 I had gathering dust. That raises the hologram over the front sight tower but I can still cowitness in the lower one third of the screen. Even though the EOTech eats AA batteries and may be more prone to failure in comparison to an AimPoint, I will probably use it until it fails. I will then probably buy an Aimpoint PRO or T-1 with the 2 MOA dot. 320 rounds with only one fail to feed out of a 70's ventage Colt 30 round magazine that an operator gave me a few years ago. It failed to feed round number 29. I may be a packrat. The old worn out colt mag is destined to be shot and recycled. Nothing but PMags in my future. All I need now is an Ambi mag catch and maybe a light etc. Anyone have any expierence with a "Grip Pod"?

[Failure2Stop]

I have a rule about GripPods:
Never pay for one, that way you won't feel bad when you take it off and never use it again.
Yeah, its a combination of two items, but if optimally placed for one application it will be sub optimal for the other. It's like a combination calculator and pregnancy test, it might be able to do two different things, but what's the point? A magazine monopod works just as well without the added schlong sticking out, lets you maintain a lower profile while firing, and works just as well on a cant as flat ground.

Mags- I would only recommend black pmags or US GI aluminum with an upgraded follower.

[jstyer]

Mags- I would only recommend black pmags or US GI aluminum with an upgraded follower.

F2S, have you had bad experience with colored PMAG's? I have 50/50 between OD and Black, and so far they've all been 100%... But obviously you see a lot more mags/rounds going down range than me.

[Failure2Stop]

Highest failure rates have been with non-black pmags.

[jrm]

but is this a known problem with BCM middies?
FWIW my 16'' midlength BCM has ran fine (no malfunctions or bolt not locking back on an empty mag) with a Spikes Tactical ST-T2 buffer and TulAmmo 55gr. But, that is also only around 100 rounds and a sample of one. It's also a hammer forged barrel I wouldn't think they would change the gas port spec but I don't know.

[iakdrago]

Quick update on the thread--my AR finally arrived. Originally i was going to go for a mid length, but in the end decided for going for a DD M4 v1. So far i only have about 200 rounds of federal 55 grain ammo through it. I'm having a lot of trouble acclimating to aperture sights. All of my previous rifles/pistols had the standard notch sights. Sadly, i shoot my ak/sweedish mauser a lot better than the AR. Case in point--i need to put a lot more rounds down range. In order to save on the cost of ammo--any suggestions on whether a dedicated upper such as one made by spikes, or a m&p15-22 would serve better? Both are about the same price, but the upper offers the advantage of having the same trigger and similar weight. The M&P on the other hand offers identical operational controls such as a last shot bolt hold open.

[Suvorov]

Quick update on the thread--my AR finally arrived. Originally i was going to go for a mid length, but in the end decided for going for a DD M4 v1. So far i only have about 200 rounds of federal 55 grain ammo through it. I'm having a lot of trouble acclimating to aperture sights. All of my previous rifles/pistols had the standard notch sights. Sadly, i shoot my ak/sweedish mauser a lot better than the AR. Case in point--i need to put a lot more rounds down range. In order to save on the cost of ammo--any suggestions on whether a dedicated upper such as one made by spikes, or a m&p15-22 would serve better? Both are about the same price, but the upper offers the advantage of having the same trigger and similar weight. The M&P on the other hand offers identical operational controls such as a last shot bolt hold open.

I went the dedicated upper route (CMMG) and I can't say I'm 100% happy with my decision. As you mentioned, the advantage of the dedicated upper is the ability to use the same lower. You will also have the advantage of the same weight. The disadvantages I have seen are:
1) Different manual of arms - the conversions and dedicated uppers are simple blow back bolts and thus do not make use of the bolt hold back or forward assist (I know not a big issue here). Thus if you are training for magazine changes or malfunction drills you will not be paralleling your rifle.
2) Reliability - as with any 22LR, the bulk ammo will reduce reliability, but most of the conversion bolts (which is what dedicated uppers use as well) are based on the Ciener bolt and as a result - are not designed to extract live rounds well. This has been my biggest issue as I can deal with a dud every hundred rounds or so, but not being able to clear the gun is unacceptable.
3) Cost - Going the dedicated upper route will cost you about the same as a M&P-15-22, but still require you to use the receiver of your full caliber rifle. This may not seem like an issue, but having an extra gun is nice as you can let a friend plink with it while you shoot your primary or you can take your .22LR rifle places you wouldn't want to take your primary.

CMMG's newer "EVOLUTION" uppers are supposed to rectify most of my complaints, but from modifying my own with some of the newer parts as well as talking to guys running the newer EVOLUTION uppers, it doesn't seem that they are 100% there yet.

I ended up building up a full dedicated rifle using a 1st Gen DPMS receiver that wasn't worth using on a "serious" rifle, so I am fully committed. I am continually tweaking my rifle to make it more reliable but a big part of me wishes I went the M&P route.

I don't have any direct experience with the M&P, but I do know their lower will allow AR-spec triggers, so you should be able to use the same trigger in your M&P-22 as you have in your DD.

If you are just wanting to be able to shoot cheap ammo and learn to use your sights you might also want to consider just going the route of an adapter bolt. The biggest problem you will have here is accuracy as your 1/7 twist is far too fast for a 22LR (the dedicated uppers use a much slower twist - 1/12 or 1/16 I think), but if you are shooting at 25yards it won't be as much of an issue. The big benefit with this route as it will only run you one to two hundred bucks and other than accuracy, do the same thing as a dedicated upper would. One other thing I would consider with an adapter is to watch for lead fouling and buildup in your barrel and make sure it is clean before firing full caliber ammo through it as I have seen one rifle barrel ruined this way.

[Failure2Stop]

Quick update on the thread--my AR finally arrived. Originally i was going to go for a mid length, but in the end decided for going for a DD M4 v1. So far i only have about 200 rounds of federal 55 grain ammo through it. I'm having a lot of trouble acclimating to aperture sights. All of my previous rifles/pistols had the standard notch sights. Sadly, i shoot my ak/sweedish mauser a lot better than the AR. Case in point--i need to put a lot more rounds down range. In order to save on the cost of ammo--any suggestions on whether a dedicated upper such as one made by spikes, or a m&p15-22 would serve better? Both are about the same price, but the upper offers the advantage of having the same trigger and similar weight. The M&P on the other hand offers identical operational controls such as a last shot bolt hold open.

I'd just dry-fire or get some cheap ammo.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[Al T.]

Sadly, i shoot my AK/Swedish Mauser a lot better than the AR. Case in point--i need to put a lot more rounds down range.

Disagree. IMHO and IME, you need some coaching. A class would be great, but as you are new to the platform, I'd suggest an Appleseed weekend to get you well started.

One thing I see folks doing is trying to "align" aperture sights. You simply look through the rear (think "looking through a keyhole") sight and focus on the front sight. Your eye will center the front sight for you. :)

[Little Creek]

Update on the M&P15 Sport, my first M4gery, an entry level carbine. I still like the fact of no forward assist, no dust cover, and the built in oversize trigger guard. I just added the MagPul ACS butstock, I love that stock. I have the MagPul MOE+ grip, like the hand filling overmolded rubber. Have the MOE handguard. Just added the "Grip Pod" ( I went to a gun show yesterday). Since I am LH I replaced the selector with a LH selector from STAG Arms. Mine came with the MBUIS rear sight. I like that. I put a .3 EOTech riser under a 512 I had gathering dust. That raises the hologram over the front sight tower but I can still cowitness in the lower one third of the screen. Even though the EOTech eats AA batteries and may be more prone to failure in comparison to an AimPoint, I will probably use it until it fails. I will then probably buy an Aimpoint PRO or T-1 with the 2 MOA dot. 320 rounds with only one fail to feed out of a 70's ventage Colt 30 round magazine that an operator gave me a few years ago. It failed to feed round number 29. I may be a packrat. The old worn out colt mag is destined to be shot and recycled. Nothing but PMags in my future. All I need now is an Ambi mag catch and maybe a light etc. Anyone have any expierence with a "Grip Pod"?

Round count is up to 510 rounds through PMAGs, no malfunctions. Just got a Leupold Prismatic Tactical. I like the black reticle with the red fiber optic light. It sharper to my old eyes. Anyone out there have any expierence with a "Prismatic".

[Tamara]

I have a rule about GripPods:
Never pay for one, that way you won't feel bad when you take it off and never use it again.
Yeah, its a combination of two items, but if optimally placed for one application it will be sub optimal for the other. It's like a combination calculator and pregnancy test, it might be able to do two different things, but what's the point?

I just want to say that I really wish I'd written that.

[bdcheung]

I'm giving a hard look at the M&P 15T for my first AR. It's up there along with the Colt 6920 and AR6720.

My concern is that all three options will be "too much" gun for me and that I should get something like a Bushmaster or RRA, since this will be little more than a range gun and paranoia-TEOTWAWKI gun.

[JDM]

I should get something like a Bushmaster or RRA, since this will be little more than a range gun and paranoia-TEOTWAWKI gun.

For the love of God man, NO!

[bdcheung]

For the love of God man, NO!

;)

[Suvorov]

I'm giving a hard look at the M&P 15T for my first AR. It's up there along with the Colt 6920 and AR6720.

My concern is that all three options will be "too much" gun for me and that I should get something like a Bushmaster or RRA, since this will be little more than a range gun and paranoia-TEOTWAWKI gun.

Why?

Why settle for less? Especially when you can buy a quality M&P (the lower end of a quality gun) or basic Colt or BCM for about the same or just a shekel or two more than a Bushy and probably less than a RRA.

I'm not a big AR snob, but I do hate to see people pay more for a commercial grade AR than they could for a quality AR.

[bdcheung]

Good point.

[JDM]

http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/CO6920.aspx

VS

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/13230

Item #2 shouldn't even be considered given the price point of Item #1.

End of story.

[JMS]

bd, take a look at it from a slightly different angle..... Let's arbitrarily presume that you lay out an expenditure of $1000, period.

If you spend that on the Colt that BOM cited, you've spent $1000 on a no-kidding $1000 carbine.

If you spend that on a BM/RRA or similar, you've spent $1000 on what's actually $750 carbine, and that's being kind. No matter how good a price you find on the thing, you're still being robbed. IF you can find a new BM/RRA or similar for the $$$ the thing is actually worth, from a materials, workmanship, components and QC/QA standpoint, you should be all over it like a cheap suit.

Your original thought of a M&P carbine isn't half-bad. Slightly overgassed easily dealt with IF it presents a problem to begin with; buffer swap, FA bolt-carrier, somewhat lesser barrel material not a huge factor in a non-hard-use gun, 1-in-9 twist unlikely to stabilize ammo at or above 69gr, but most readily-available practice ammo, and even duty amo, is 55-62gr. Easy day. Swap the barrel later if you feel like it, to a properly-made 4150 or better with a proper gas port and more versatile twist rate. Voila....

However, if they have that Colt in stock, that's damned hard to argue with at that price, especially since it means that you won't have to spend more $$$ down the road to swap buffer/carrier/barrel if you decide to up your usage. It's already DONE, and for no extra cost to you....

[LittleLebowski]

Got over 23k rds through my 5.45 M&P...... No complaints. Runs like a good, older Glock.

[JMS]

Jeezuz, dude, you were @ 14k last time I saw a number! You're putting up some Wilt Chamberlain time on that thing, there. Nice!

[LittleLebowski]

Jeezuz, dude, you were @ 14k last time I saw a number! You're putting up some Wilt Chamberlain time on that thing, there. Nice!

Yeah, I'm waiting on this barrel to go..... I ran almost 2k rds through it at Failure2stop's class alone. I'll tell ya what; his carbine class is where you really find out what works as far as gear and technique. I saw three carbines barf there that had previously ran fine for their owners.

[David Armstrong]

I'm giving a hard look at the M&P 15T for my first AR. It's up there along with the Colt 6920 and AR6720.

My concern is that all three options will be "too much" gun for me and that I should get something like a Bushmaster or RRA, since this will be little more than a range gun and paranoia-TEOTWAWKI gun.
Nonononono. Everone knows that for TEOTWAKI you need an Olympic Arms or a Delton. That way when they are contaminated by the toxic chemicals and radiation you can just throw them away without any loss.:p

[bdcheung]

The error of my ways has been thoroughly pointed out to me :)

I'll keep my eye out for a 6720 or 6920 to come back in stock.

[JMS]

LL, rgr that, dialed in for the May class in WV, all three days. I need a class that has some distance; been too long, especially since I missed that Defoor class last year and am not hitting Camp Atterbury every freaking fiscal quarter like I was.

I need to get cooking on acquiring ammo for that, and I'll be bringing both of my guns specifically beacuse Murphy's Law is relatively optimistic.

[Little Creek]

bd, take a look at it from a slightly different angle..... Let's arbitrarily presume that you lay out an expenditure of $1000, period.

If you spend that on the Colt that BOM cited, you've spent $1000 on a no-kidding $1000 carbine.

If you spend that on a BM/RRA or similar, you've spent $1000 on what's actually $750 carbine, and that's being kind. No matter how good a price you find on the thing, you're still being robbed. IF you can find a new BM/RRA or similar for the $$$ the thing is actually worth, from a materials, workmanship, components and QC/QA standpoint, you should be all over it like a cheap suit.

Your original thought of a M&P carbine isn't half-bad. Slightly overgassed easily dealt with IF it presents a problem to begin with; buffer swap, FA bolt-carrier, somewhat lesser barrel material not a huge factor in a non-hard-use gun, 1-in-9 twist unlikely to stabilize ammo at or above 69gr, but most readily-available practice ammo, and even duty amo, is 55-62gr. Easy day. Swap the barrel later if you feel like it, to a properly-made 4150 or better with a proper gas port and more versatile twist rate. Voila....

However, if they have that Colt in stock, that's damned hard to argue with at that price, especially since it means that you won't have to spend more $$$ down the road to swap buffer/carrier/barrel if you decide to up your usage. It's already DONE, and for no extra cost to you....

OK, I may be ignorant. why should I avoid RRA? What is wrong with RRA?

[Jay Cunningham]

The RRA gun will probably have been held to a lower level of QC. However, if you have one that runs well, don't get all worried about it.

[LittleLebowski]

LL, rgr that, dialed in for the May class in WV, all three days. I need a class that has some distance; been too long, especially since I missed that Defoor class last year and am not hitting Camp Atterbury every freaking fiscal quarter like I was.

I need to get cooking on acquiring ammo for that, and I'll be bringing both of my guns specifically beacuse Murphy's Law is relatively optimistic.

Hope to see you there. Failure2Stop will push your gear and you.

[JMS]

OK, I may be ignorant. why should I avoid RRA? What is wrong with RRA?

Without making any assertions as to who is or is not ignorant, lemme define what I mean somewhat better, since that reads like somebody spoiling for an :internetscrap:....

If you're pushing 1000 rounds/year through the thing.....NOTHING. Period, end of story. Rock on.

If you're 1) like me, LL, F2S, and a whole host of others, and 2) the least you've put through a single carbine in a single year in the last 5 years is 8000 rounds, then 3) the fact that RR takes the same material, manufacturing and assembly shortcuts as BM will come to the fore at some point. Again, $1k spent on what might be a $650 gun in terms of material and workmanship.

Lesser barrels. Gigantor gas ports on the barrels. Lesser hardware on the gas key. May or may not torque the hardware on the gas key correctly. May or may not stake that at all, and if done, done improperly. May or may not stake the castle nut. More.....

Before anybody comes back with the "My RRA/BM/Oly Awesom-O 15 has run like a top, you son of a whore....!" as if I'm somehow putting down their weapon....then that's great news, and many happy returns. Seriously!

I'm not the sort of fool that argues with somebody else's success, so if you've got one that's running well, I'm not busting anybody's nuts. Arbitrarily, if something has an 80% failure rate....SOMEbody has to own and use the 20% that ain't failing, and we should all be happy for them that they won when they spun the Wheel of Destiny. Doesn't change the technical facts or the inarguable trend, just means that they caught a break and got one that was made on a day that the little old lady at the factory wasn't drunk.