Entry "Precision Rifle" Range Toy - advice?

[ranger]

I am "wanting" a 6.5CM or 260REM range toy. This is definitely a "Want" and not a "Need". Something to take some training on "long range" shooting - as in 1000 yards max. I definitely want 260 Rem or 6.5CM because I already have dies, brass, projectiles, etc. for those calibers. I am open to a range of rifle options from a $500 used Savage to a $2000 used semi-custom. Trying not to buy a $500 rifle then add so much stuff that it becomes a $2000 rifle though. I am not set on a specific brand of rifle or action. I will not compete on a regular basis in the PRS series for example. I have other rifles to hunt with in 260/6.5CM/3006. Optics, etc. are a separate discussion.

I have noticed that there are other manufacturers now offering competition to the RPR in "out of box" PRS type rifles but they are $1600 to $2000.

I think the "easy" answer is either Ruger Precision Rifle (about $1400) or a Tikka CTR (about $900). Any thoughts on other options? I do not think I want to spend the $$ on a custom or semicustom.

[HCM]

Savage 110 BA Stealth 6.5

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BAStealth

PE Kelley recently did a review on one. There should be a thread on it here somewhere

[SteveB]

I am "wanting" a 6.5CM or 260REM range toy. I think the "easy" answer is either Ruger Precision Rifle (about $1400) or a Tikka CTR (about $900). Any thoughts on other options? I do not think I want to spend the $$ on a custom or semicustom.

I had this thought as well, and got the CTR in 6.5CM. It's an excellent shooter, but I dislike the stock, and have ordered an MDT HS3 chassis and buttstock. I expect it will be a $2000 rifle before I scope it.

[Luke]

CTR in a chassis.



Now, let's talk glass. :)

[LittleLebowski]

CTR in a chassis.



Now, let's talk glass. :)

You have good taste. Do you like shooting stuff and budget bourbon?

[Luke]

I love to shoot stuff. Is bourbon whiskey? I feel like I should know this?

[David S.]

All bourbon is whiskey, not all whiskey is bourbon. yum.

[P.E. Kelley]

Savage 110 BA Stealth 6.5

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BAStealth

PE Kelley recently did a review on one. There should be a thread on it here somewhere

I did~! Thank you for remembering.

http://blog.defenderoutdoors.com/savage-arms-stealth-6-5-creedmoor/

[Duelist]

I did~! Thank you for remembering.

http://blog.defenderoutdoors.com/savage-arms-stealth-6-5-creedmoor/

That makes more sense! I was confused by the first link, because it showed the 110 BA Stealth as available only in .300 WM and .338 Lapua, and the 110 is Savage's long action, but your link is a review of the 10 BA Stealth, which is a short action, and available in .308 and 6.5 Creedmore.

A friend of mine got a 110 BA in .338 Lapua years ago, and I asked him why because he doesn't reload. It was really cool, but he ended up selling it with less than 50 rounds through it - just couldn't afford to shoot it. The .308 and 6.5 make a lot more sense for most folks.

[SteveB]

CTR in a chassis.



Now, let's talk glass. :)

Well, since you bring it up...

I've been thinking (overthinking?) about glass for this rifle (Tikka CTR 6.5 CM in a chassis) for a couple of weeks now. I'm going to start by punching paper out to 300, but would like to be able to shoot some PRS down the road. This from the PRS website:

Reliable tracking scopes with 15x or 25x max power is what is typically used. Most tactical shooters prefer a Mil-based reticle and knobs because it is widely used and easily communicated. Also a scope with a First Focal Plane (FFP) is largely favored.

The Precision Rifle Blog is an excellent resource for all things PRS. This post looks at the most popular scope/reticle combos among PRS competitors:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/18/best-tactical-scopes-and-reticles/

One of my issues is that I've always thought "MOA" for hunting and distance shooting. I understand the appeal of mrad, base 10 and all that, but I still think in inches. I'm trying to figure out if I should make the effort and jump to a mil/mil scope for this game.

Another issue is cost; these scopes are pricey. Less expensive glass is out there, usually with some compromise. The Nightforce SHV is half the price of some of the above scopes, but their FFP scope is a 4-14X, and I wonder if that's enough magnification for PRS. On the plus side, I like their MOAR reticle. SWFA has this one; mil/mil but no zero-stop:

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-HD-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx

So, to avoid re-inventing the wheel, I'd like to hear from guys who shoot PRS, or regularly shoot in the 500-1000 yard range, or who own any of these scopes and have opinions on glass/scope quality, reticle choice and so on.

[NH Shooter]

I use the SWFA 10X 42 HD on a .308 700 and like it very much. There is a guy out there who sells zero-stop shim kits for SWFA scopes - works perfectly in mine. Though there is better glass (and much more pricey) available, you truly cannot go wrong with a SWFA.

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/700-17.jpg

[Luke]

I'd keep an eye on the snipershide classifieds. No reason you couldn't get what you want for a good deal. I'd also call CS Tactical and tell them you are a member here and know they are a supporting business and your in the market for glass, see what they have in your price range.

No budget: S&B :cool:

Budget: vortex Razor HD gen 1

[Peally]

I have an RPR that's been sitting in my office without optics for a year. Yours for only $2k!

[Trigger]

I recommend a Tikka. The T3x CTR is nice, but has drawbacks. 20" barrel, expensive magazines, and some don't like the stock. If you put it in a chassis, then you might just consider a regular T3x. If you want a better stock, get the T3x Sporter. Very nice stock, very adjustable.

[SLG]

Well, since you bring it up...

I've been thinking (overthinking?) about glass for this rifle (Tikka CTR 6.5 CM in a chassis) for a couple of weeks now. I'm going to start by punching paper out to 300, but would like to be able to shoot some PRS down the road. This from the PRS website:

Reliable tracking scopes with 15x or 25x max power is what is typically used. Most tactical shooters prefer a Mil-based reticle and knobs because it is widely used and easily communicated. Also a scope with a First Focal Plane (FFP) is largely favored.

The Precision Rifle Blog is an excellent resource for all things PRS. This post looks at the most popular scope/reticle combos among PRS competitors:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/18/best-tactical-scopes-and-reticles/

One of my issues is that I've always thought "MOA" for hunting and distance shooting. I understand the appeal of mrad, base 10 and all that, but I still think in inches. I'm trying to figure out if I should make the effort and jump to a mil/mil scope for this game.

Another issue is cost; these scopes are pricey. Less expensive glass is out there, usually with some compromise. The Nightforce SHV is half the price of some of the above scopes, but their FFP scope is a 4-14X, and I wonder if that's enough magnification for PRS. On the plus side, I like their MOAR reticle. SWFA has this one; mil/mil but no zero-stop:

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-HD-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx

So, to avoid re-inventing the wheel, I'd like to hear from guys who shoot PRS, or regularly shoot in the 500-1000 yard range, or who own any of these scopes and have opinions on glass/scope quality, reticle choice and so on.

No technical reason to go mil/mil or moa/moa but you will want the ease of communication. As far as "thinking" in inches, you don't think with these scopes. You simply read the reticle and then your turrets understand. No thinking. I go between moa and mil scopes all the time. No thinking at all. I prefer mil, but it is what it is.

I have no experiecne with the SWFA, but I would skip the SHV for any PRS use. The turrets on them are simply not designed for lots of dialing.

You will never be unhappy with a top of the line scope, as long as you actually use it. OTOH, you will regret the cheaper one every time you miss and wonder if it was you or the scope. Better glass is nice too.:-)

[Failure2Stop]

I have an RPR Gen 1, acquired for pretty much the same purpose as the OP: I wanted to start competing in PRS as I do enjoy that kind of competition, and I was in no way ready to commit 10k to a game rig.

I have been very happy with it. I have not rested it for accuracy, but from bipod w/rear bag and 140gr ELDs it consistently punches better than 1 MOA 5- or 10-round groups. I've only taken it out to 914 meters, but with no complaints (other than that 140gr projectiles aren't all that energetic past 700 meters and untrained spotters can have trouble).
The 15" handguard (I replaced mine with an MLOK MI version), is great for barricade and alternate position work that PRS is known for without applying deflecting force to the barrel, and is more than adequate for mounting inline NV.
Works with AI or SR-25 pattern magazines, which means that you can get awesome mags from Magpul for about what you'd pay for Glock mags.
Handguard replacement/upgrade is easily done on the workbench or kitchen table (literally).
The bolt shroud does benefit from upgrade (I'm still using my stock one) as the bolt cycle isn't as nice as on a "real" PRS gun.
I popped on a Magpul PRS stock and have been very happy. I didn't have any issues with the RPR stock, I just like the PRS better and hand one on hand.

I still want to put on a brake, and I'm 90% sure of what I'm going to get, it just dropped a little on the priority list since the first PRS Gas-Gun match is going on in Feb, which is pulling some of my time and resources.

[SecondsCount]

If I were to take the gamble on a factory rifle, I would choose a Tikka over a Ruger. This is based on personal experience with their M77 rifles and an American Ranch. The Ruger Precision offers a lot of features but corners have been cut to provide them at the price they are offering.

The other option, and the way I have put together my last two builds, is to buy a base model Remington and have it rebarreled in the caliber that I want. After that you have all kinds of options for stocks, triggers, etc. You can sell off any takeoff parts to recoup some of your funds.

[ranger]

UPDATE - going a whole new direction. I contacted the local long range guru and discussed my ideas reference Ruger Precision Rifle, Tikka CTR, etc. He mentioned in passing that another local shooter might have a really good deal on a custom barreled action in 6.5 CM. A few phone calls later I am committed to buying a Stiller Spectre action with 6.5 CM 25" Barlein 1:8 M24 contour with Jewell trigger (less than 200 rounds fired) assembled by Accurate Ordnance of Winder GA. I may get a used tan AICS 1.5 chassis in deal also - currently an option as I research.

Looking for ideas on a chassis for Rem 700 SA as options to the AICS?

[LittleLebowski]

Looking for ideas on a chassis for Rem 700 SA as options to the AICS?

https://kineticresearchgroup.com/catalog/

[Soggy]

Sounds like you are squared away on the rifle. If you are still pondering glass this article by ILya Koshkin may be useful:
http://opticsthoughts.com/?p=1667
He gives a high level overview of things to look for, and then recommendations of specific scopes at different price points.
I don't have any direct knowledge - just in learning mode myself on the same topic. I have found his advice on other optical questions excellent. He also helps moderate the SWFA discussion board, another good resource: http://opticstalk.com/

[Luke]

Post looking for advice on "entry level" stuff. Buys custom barreled action. I bet we would make good friends! ;)

[ranger]

Great glass article. For glass, I will start off with a Vortex Viper HS LR 4-16x50 FFP with XLR (MOA) reticle I already have on hand. Will move up from there when I rebuild the toy account.

[SecondsCount]

Looking for ideas on a chassis for Rem 700 SA as options to the AICS?

I really like to clean look and simplicity of the MDT HS3 Chassis (https://mdttac.com/hs3-chassis-system.html). I have only been able to handle it at SHOT a few years ago but with the way they had it setup, it was very comfortable.

[Jimichanga]

UPDATE - going a whole new direction. I contacted the local long range guru and discussed my ideas reference Ruger Precision Rifle, Tikka CTR, etc. He mentioned in passing that another local shooter might have a really good deal on a custom barreled action in 6.5 CM. A few phone calls later I am committed to buying a Stiller Spectre action with 6.5 CM 25" Barlein 1:8 M24 contour with Jewell trigger (less than 200 rounds fired) assembled by Accurate Ordnance of Winder GA. I may get a used tan AICS 1.5 chassis in deal also - currently an option as I research.

Looking for ideas on a chassis for Rem 700 SA as options to the AICS?


Dang, that is a hell of an entry level rifle.

As far as chassis go, I would recommend going to a local club level PRS style match and getting behind people's guns. Most shooters are happy to let you belly up their rifles and look through their glass. AICS, like most chassis, you will either love or hate after you get behind it. Quite honestly you don't see many AICS chassis (definitely an AI rifle or two, tho) at matches anymore. Best to buy used as there are a ton of Remington SA stocks/chassis trading hands when people realize they don't like the fit. Look at the KRG Xray and XLR Element, both are great value and easy to buy used or sell if you do not like.

If you are going to shoot matches at all you will be best served by a FFP mil/mil scope. As you are learning to read the wind the language on the line at the stages is all mil based. With everything else going on at a stage it is difficult to convert someone's mil wind hold to your moa hold.

If you are just going to shoot long range steel for funsies and you already know moa by all means stick with it.

You picked a hell of a rabbit hole to dump your money down. I often think I would have been ahead of the game financially if I had just started smoking crack...

[ranger]

UPDATE 2 - just got back from picking up rifle. Bought the barreled action per the specs outlined previously and also bought the "used" (looks like good as new to me) AICS 1.5 (non-folding) stock/chassis - really great price opportunity for me. I live in NW GA and met the seller in NE GA not far from Accurate Ordnance in Winder, GA. Swung by AO and they made a minor machining mod to the AICS to fit the trigger while I waited (minor interference on safety) - got to admire a wall of their custom rifles and accessories while I waited - really great customer service and they gave me multiple tips to as a new LR shooter. I will start with AICS chassis and see if I like it or go another way on chassis - I am confident I can sell the AICS for what I paid. Now, will start saving for glass to fit the "entry" rifle.

[Dr_Thanatos]

UPDATE 2 - just got back from picking up rifle. Bought the barreled action per the specs outlined previously and also bought the "used" (looks like good as new to me) AICS 1.5 (non-folding) stock/chassis - really great price opportunity for me. I live in NW GA and met the seller in NE GA not far from Accurate Ordnance in Winder, GA. Swung by AO and they made a minor machining mod to the AICS to fit the trigger while I waited (minor interference on safety) - got to admire a wall of their custom rifles and accessories while I waited - really great customer service and they gave me multiple tips to as a new LR shooter. I will start with AICS chassis and see if I like it or go another way on chassis - I am confident I can sell the AICS for what I paid. Now, will start saving for glass to fit the "entry" rifle.
Let me know when you are ready to wring it out and we'll make the trek over to Talledega.

Sent from my SM-P905V using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

Check out Victor Viperskins for your AICS. I prefer them to the OEM thumbhole.

[Backspin]

Rabbit hole indeed!

I won a nice rifle package in a raffle. Was going to sell it, but I ended up keeping it because precision shooting was completely new to me and it was something new to explore. Learning everything I can about precision shooting and validating my gear and my gun has been an obsession as of late. Instead of making a few $1000 by selling that package I'm already a few $1000 invested in ammo and reloading equipment alone!

Any idea why AICS and AI guns aren't as popular at PRS matches?

[Clusterfrack]

Rabbit hole indeed!

Any idea why AICS and AI guns aren't as popular at PRS matches?

Accuracy International has maintained a solid presence in PRS and other precision tactical matches. This year in PRS (http://precisionrifleblog.com/category/what-the-pros-use/), AI actions were the 3rd most popular, at 11%. AI chassis were also 3rd most used, but none of the top 10 finishers used them. AI rifles are solid, reliable, and accurate out of the box. My AIAE mk3 .260 has seen hard use, and has never had any issues. It shoots 1/3 MOA, same POI cold, clean, dirty, whatever. It's served me well and brought me some top scores. But, AI guns and chassis are heavier than many other custom options, and are much less customizable. If I was really serious about PRS type competition, I'd probably build up a Defiance Deviant, and get it and a couple barrels Melonited. But this would be a major pain in the ass, not to mention the cost. So, I'm happy with what I've got.

[SteveB]

Got all the bits and pieces in yesterday, dropped the CTR into the MDT HS3 chassis last night, and headed to the range after work. CS Tactical hooked me up with a great price on a NF 4-16X. Not a lot of time to shoot today as the light was fading, but I managed one 3-shot 11/16" group at 200 with Hornady 140 gr ELD Match. First impressions: I like the HS3; the fore end is long enough so that the bipod and rifle feel solid. The polymer skins are nice; better than bare metal when it's cold. Lots of potential attachment points if I want to sling it up. Not crazy about the MDT Skeleton Lite stock; the push-button adjustments sound good, but are very stiff and difficult to move. Once I got the LOP sorted out, I found the cheek piece uncomfortable. It's easy to install and solid as a rock, but I need to find a different buttstock. The APA Little Bastard brake is gold; best I've used. The MDT 8-round mag fed fine; no issues in and out of the rifle.

12335

[SLG]

I haven't done the math on it, but to my mind, the setup Steve has above is a great way to go to build a very capable precision rifle in the price range of an entry level. (Minus the NF scope which is top of the line)

Those apa brakes really are something. Don't know how they were created, but no snake oil in the performance!

[PNWTO]

Those apa brakes really are something. Don't know how they were created, but no snake oil in the performance!

Those can be fit on pencil barrels, right? Like a T3 lite?

[SteveB]

Those can be fit on pencil barrels, right? Like a T3 lite?

You need a barrel diameter at the muzzle of 0.8-1.0"

[SteveB]

Those apa brakes really are something. Don't know how they were created, but no snake oil in the performance!

No doubt. One of the best things about this brake (it's a Gen II) is ease of mounting. Timing muzzle devices can be a bit of a pain, dicking around with shims. This brake has a locking nut; all you have to do is spin it on, line it up and tighten it with a crescent wrench; great design.

[Dr_Thanatos]

Those can be fit on pencil barrels, right? Like a T3 lite?
Yes, but your gunsmith has to use non standard threads.

Sent from my SM-P905V using Tapatalk

[SLG]

APA also makes different brakes for different diameters. Don't know if they will go on the end of a stock T3lite, but I think they will. I asked about that a little while ago, but in relation to cutting the tube back to 16 or so.

[Dr_Thanatos]

Accurate Ordinance attached a APA little bastard to the end of my T3lite without cutting the barrel. But like I said, they used an alternate thread pitch, maybe 9/16". It works great. I'll try and get a picture up in the scout rifle thread later.

[SteveB]

Those can be fit on pencil barrels, right? Like a T3 lite?

You might want to look at a Micro Bastard:

https://www.americanprecisionarms.com/products-page/muzzlebrakes/gen-ii-micro-bastard/

[vaspence]

SteveB any chance you have a total weight on the CTR?

[SteveB]

SteveB any chance you have a total weight on the CTR?

As pictured, but without scope, rings and bipod, 9.5 lbs.

[CS Tactical]

Got all the bits and pieces in yesterday, dropped the CTR into the MDT HS3 chassis last night, and headed to the range after work. CS Tactical hooked me up with a great price on a NF 4-16X. Not a lot of time to shoot today as the light was fading, but I managed one 3-shot 11/16" group at 200 with Hornady 140 gr ELD Match. First impressions: I like the HS3; the fore end is long enough so that the bipod and rifle feel solid. The polymer skins are nice; better than bare metal when it's cold. Lots of potential attachment points if I want to sling it up. Not crazy about the MDT Skeleton Lite stock; the push-button adjustments sound good, but are very stiff and difficult to move. Once I got the LOP sorted out, I found the cheek piece uncomfortable. It's easy to install and solid as a rock, but I need to find a different buttstock. The APA Little Bastard brake is gold; best I've used. The MDT 8-round mag fed fine; no issues in and out of the rifle.

12335


Awesome setup Steve! Glad we can be of service.

[Clusterfrack]

Ranger--trying to answer your scope questions but your PM inbox is full.

[SteveB]

Swapped out the MDT Skeleton Lite stock for a Magpul PRS; it's a bit heavier, but much more comfortable. I think it's a big improvement; works well with my Red-Tac rear bag:

12728

[CS Tactical]

Swapped out the MDT Skeleton Lite stock for a Magpul PRS; it's a bit heavier, but much more comfortable. I think it's a big improvement; works well with my Red-Tac rear bag:

12728


Nice setup Steve!

[ranger]

13179

First attempt at 100 yards shooting the "new" rifle with my first load. Of course the one out of the group was the 5th round - I said ugly words.

[butler coach]

Well done and nice build.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[coN]

This is my first build done on an extreme budget for plinking and possibly hunting. I was never looking for a precision build, just something accurate enough with good ammo. So during Black Friday Remington had a rebate for various rifles so I bought a 700 SPS AAC chambered in 308 with a 20" barrel. Sold the stock, bought the Magpul 700 stock with DBM paired with an Athlon Argos BTR 6-24x50 on Talley High rings and a Harris bipod. My first outing with it I was hitting 1 MOA on average @ 100 yards, but the 2nd outing was a different story, as the following pictures will show. Please note, the pics were taken using my phone, holding it up to the spotting scope lens which has a ridiculously short eye relief. I had to go in and blacken the shots so you could actually see where I and my brother hit because you could barely see the shots with the low quality pics. I wouldve loved to keep the target but it was a no-go so now im seriously considering a digiscoping setup. Next time ill film the shots.

Anyways, my brother came with me to the range and I brought along a Celestron spotting scope. On the target, each square is 1-inch for reference. Off of rear sand bags and the bipod, I took my first 3 shots on the upper right target and my brother announced they were one hole right next to each other. "BULLSHIT!" I said. Looked through the spotting scope, and i seriously thought it was a fluke. Took another 3 shots at the target right under it. Same result. Keep in mind, this is only my second time out with this rifle but it was exhilarating to hit 3-shot groups like this, especially with the stock trigger. My brother tried, and firing it for the first time, he got the triangular 1 MOA group on the lower left target. He hasnt been hunting in years so I know it wasnt a fluke concerning the rifles accuracy if he did that on his first try. Adjusted the scope for a zero, which gives the group in the 1-inch square on the right. Ammo was PMC X-TAC 168gr loaded w/SMK. The groups in the upper left corner, center, and left 1-inch square were achieved using Ultramax 168gr loaded w/Speer BTHP.

Now im considering another build, especially after my experience with this budget build using another 700 but with a B&C stock and a Athon Ares scope which wouldnt qualify it as a budget build. But off of my original 700, Athon scope with Mapul stock, it goes to show what is capable on a budget of just under $1000 after it was all said and done. I was a beginner who was looking for 1 MOA rifle, and yet, I now want more ever since I hit those groups. Its challenging but addicting: breath control, trigger control, and most of all... Patience!

This may get expensive for me...

1357913580135811358213583

[orionz06]

Is there anything lost with the T3X Tac A1? Checked them out at SHOT and the price doesn't seem obnoxious.

[ranger]

I found something at Cabela's today that seems to be an option for a low cost entry into "Precision Shooting" - especially for 6.5CM. A Savage 10T-SR Tactical Bolt Action Rifle with threaded barrel, AccuTrigger, AccuStock, 5R rifling, scope base rail, and extra big bolt handle in 223, 6.5Creedmoor, and 308. On sale plus a $75 rebate plus I got a 5% MIL discount. This model is supposed to be specific to Cabela's.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/firearms/centerfire-rifles/bolt-action-centerfire-rifles%7C/pc/104792580/c/553829580/sc/105522480/i/105523380/savage-174-arms-model-10t-sr-tactical-bolt-action-rifle-with-threaded-barrel/2464333.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fbolt-action-centerfire-rifles%2Fsavage-arms%2F_%2FN-1114860%2B1000004563%2FNe-1000004563%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_105523380%3FWTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_ stype%3DGNU

I have been looking for a similar rifle in 223 so I just picked one up tonight. I wanted a 223 bolt action rifle in a twist to shoot heavier bullets and this come in 1-9 for 223. Installed an AAC Flashhider suppressor mount and a Vortex HS LR FFP 4-16x50 with Weaver Tactical rings so I am ready to try it out. Have some 77 and 80 grain Nosler CC projectiles - I want to see if the 1-9 twist will shoot them well.

[ranger]

14305

This is the original poster - I realized I never posted a picture of the rifle. Barreled action built by Accurate Ordnance of Winder GA. I added the AICS chassis and the Vortex PST 6-24x50 FFP MRAD scope.