Week 193: The Humbler (700-Point Aggregate)

[Mr_White]

Week 193: The Humbler (700-Point Aggregate)

Results may be posted until January 2nd, 2017.

Range: 25 yards
Target: NRA B8 - download repair center here: https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=281&d=1322428748
Start Position: Varies
Rounds Fired: 70

The Humbler, or 700-Point Aggregate, is an accuracy-oriented drill that was designed for SFOD-Delta and popularized by Larry Vickers.

If possible, use a new target for each string to minimize scoring errors and confusion. Rounds outside the marked scoring zones are zero points.

The Humbler is aptly named, but things that are very difficult are usually very worthwhile.

Stage 1 - Slow Fire: 10 rounds, freestyle from any start position, ten minute time limit

Stage 2 - Timed Fire From The Holster: 5 rounds, freestyle from the holster, 20 second time limit - REPEAT this string for a total of 10 rounds

Stage 3 - Rapid Fire From The Holster: 5 rounds, freestyle from the holster, 10 second time limit - REPEAT this string for a total of 10 rounds

Stage 4 - SHO Slow Fire: 5 rounds, strong hand only from any start position, five minute time limit

Stage 5 - SHO Timed Fire From The Holster: 5 rounds, strong hand only from the holster, 20 second time limit

Stage 6 - SHO Rapid Fire From The Holster: 5 rounds, strong hand only from the holster, 10 second time limit

Stage 7 - WHO Slow Fire: 5 rounds, weak hand only from any start position, five minute time limit

Stage 8 - Kneeling Slow Fire: 5 rounds, freestyle/kneeling from any start position, five minute time limit

Stage 9 - Kneeling Timed Fire From The Holster: 5 rounds, begin standing/draw and kneel at start signal, 20 second time limit

Stage 10 - Prone Slow Fire: 5 rounds, freestyle/prone from any start position, five minute time limit

Stage 11 - Prone Timed Fire From The Holster: 5 rounds, begin standing/draw and go prone at start signal, 20 second time limit

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used - pistol, holster, concealment (optional)
Score for each string
Total score for all strings combined
Anything you noticed

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

[JHC]

Aw hell. I've been putting this one off for years. Ooookay.

[okie john]

I’ve been shooting this one for a while. See https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14389-The-Humbler&highlight=humbler for my bloviating and supposition plus reasoned input from more mature shooters.

The problem for me is finding a place where I can shoot at 25 yards AND work from the holster. The night I shot the targets I’m showing here, I was on a range that’s only 16 yards long.

I don’t feel that the shorter range invalidates the exercise because Larry Vickers said in his Advanced Marksmanship Class that this drill was meant for guys shooting match-grade 1911s, and that you should adjust the distance to match the skill of the group and their gear. Relatively untrained guys with G17s and NY Triggers should shoot it at a closer range than dialed-in guys with VP9s. I’ll let everyone figure out what their individual handicap should be.

Here’s how it went for me:

String 1
http://i.imgur.com/29Qe4L5.jpg (http://imgur.com/29Qe4L5)

This string sets the pace for the rest. I’ve shot less than 250 rounds through a handgun in the last several months while I focused on getting ready for an elk hunt, so this one is pretty cold. The group being out to the left is probably a grip issue.

String 2
http://i.imgur.com/okOrcSl.jpg (http://imgur.com/okOrcSl)

Shortening the time psyches out a lot of people, but I shot bullseye for years when I was younger so I’m OK with it.

String 3
http://i.imgur.com/QWk09p7.jpg (http://imgur.com/QWk09p7)

The group got bigger as the time got shorter, but the score is still about the same as the Strings 1 and 2. Still out to the left, though, and the flyers are getting worse….

Strings 4, 5, and 6
http://i.imgur.com/yh8IjVd.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/yh8IjVd)

Same trend as Strings 1-3. I owe it all to bullseye.

String 7
http://i.imgur.com/msPeVOl.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/msPeVOl)

Even a blind pig finds an acorn every once in a while.

Strings 8 and 9
http://i.imgur.com/i0Vc5h3.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/i0Vc5h3)

Kneeling is a pretty strong stage for me. Still out to the left, though….

Strings 10 and 11
http://i.imgur.com/U6jsC8t.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/U6jsC8t)

Still out to the left, and flyers reveal trigger abuse.

Total score is 634/9x. Cut that by 20% to account for the 20% shorter range and you get 507 (72%).


Okie John

[okie john]

Forgot the details:

Pistol was a Gen4 G19, which is completely stock except for a Dawson adjustable rear sight and an Ameriglo front blade.
Ammo was 124-grain Blazer Brass FMJ. This may be the cause of the left-of-center groups, as I zeroed this pistol with 124-grain S&B FMJ. I'll verify that and repost.
Holster is a K-Rounds IWB. No concealment for this one.

Things I noticed:

I tend to shoot about as well on Strings 8, 9, 10, and 11 as I do on String 1. I shoot Strings 8 and 9 with both knees on the deck, so my upper body is in the same position as offhand, but my knees are on the ground instead of my feet. I tried it with one knee down but that didn't work well. I shoot Strings 10 and 11 from the rollover prone position, so I'm basically lying on my side with my lat and most of the arm of my gun hand on the ground.
WHO strings are either very good or very bad. Tonight was good.
20 seconds is plenty of time, but learning not to freak out over the 10-second strings is the hardest part for me.


Okie John

[Doc_Glock]

I ran it twice and it was extremely humbling.

Equipment used - pistol, holster, concealment (optional)
Score for each string
Total score for all strings combined
Anything you noticed

FNS-9

Stage 1:84
Stage 2:31
Stage 3:29
Stage 4:13
Stage 5:9
Stage 6:15
Stage 7:0
Stage 8:38
Stage 9:23
Stage 10:43
Stage 11:26
Total: 311/700

Equipment used - pistol, holster, concealment (optional)
Score for each string
Total score for all strings combined
Anything you noticed

Gen 4 Glock 19

Stage 1:78
Stage 2:30
Stage 3:24
Stage 4:8
Stage 5:14
Stage 6:30
Stage 7:37
Stage 8:7
Stage 9:35
Stage 10:21
Stage 11:33
Total: 317/700

Things I noticed:

I suck at 25 yards.

Stage 4, 5, 6 were troublesome, and I seemed to do better as I sped things up these SHO stages. Maybe it's better to just yank the trigger and not think about it too much SHO?

Stage 7 (WHO) was very inconsistent, nothing on the FNS and 37 on the Glock. I can't think what I did differently?

Stage 8 and 9 (kneeling) also wildly inconsistent. These are my first rounds kneeling.

Stages 10,11 (prone), I was not nearly as good as I thought I would be. Again, this is not a position I have tried much if at all in the past.

All in all, and this is consistent with my findings on the 5X25 test, I am a >50% shooter on an 8.5X11 at 25 yards.

[okie john]

I suck at 25 yards.
You suck at 25 yards now. As you keep training at 25, that will change and everything shorter than 25 will seem like a gimme. Then you can start to suck at 50, 75, 100, and so on.


Stage 4, 5, 6 were troublesome, and I seemed to do better as I sped things up these SHO stages. Maybe it's better to just yank the trigger and not think about it too much SHO?
Trigger control is key, but it's far too easy to overthink it. Wayne Dobbs posted a very good drill in which you have to get a shot off in less than 0.25 second. It will open your eyes as to just how fast you really can press a trigger. GJM has also posted a bunch of good insight that he got from working with Robbie Leatham. It also helps to spend some time shooting with your sights deliberately misaligned, which will show you just how far off they can be and still give you good hits.


Stage 7 (WHO) was very inconsistent, nothing on the FNS and 37 on the Glock. I can't think what I did differently?
Just keep practicing and it will come to you. A lot of shooters find that they shooter better WHO than they do SHO after some practice. One theory is that they already know how to shoot, and that they have fewer bad habits to unlearn with that hand. The hard part for me is getting the sights to appear crisp and sharp in my vision. I find that a bullseye-type bladed stance is far easier to use than a squared-up stance for all of the one-handed stages.


Stage 8 and 9 (kneeling) also wildly inconsistent. These are my first rounds kneeling.
There are lots of ways to shoot kneeling; a Google image search will show you a lot of them. Most have one knee on the ground and vary/alter the position of the rear foot. Try them until you find one that works for you. I prefer to shoot kneeling with both knees on the ground so that my body position from the knees up is identical to how I shoot standing.


Stages 10,11 (prone), I was not nearly as good as I thought I would be. Again, this is not a position I have tried much if at all in the past.Same as for kneeling--there are a LOT of ways to skin this cat. A Google image search is your friend.


Okie John

[okie john]

Just dug around in my notes and found some stage-specific tips on shooting The Humbler:

To do well on The Humbler, you need a good pistol, good ammo, and a good 25-yard zero. You also need good fundamentals: stance to create natural point of aim, grip, sight alignment, trigger control, and follow-through. Other things vary by stage. In my experience, those things include:

Stage 1
Focus on fundamentals. Don’t overthink it, just fire ten good shots. This is not my strongest stage because I try too hard. Natural point of aim is huge here.

Stage 2
The draw and slight time pressure complicate Stage 2. I slow down my draw to ensure a perfect grip, which I’ll need to make five quick, solid hits at 25 yards. 20 seconds for five shots is plenty of time, even at 25 yards, so getting a perfect grip is more important than speed. Natural point of aim helps keep things moving smoothly.

Stage 3
The draw also complicates this stage, but the time is shorter. Again, I slow my draw just enough to ensure a perfect grip, then come up and make five fast hits. Having a good natural point of aim is key.

Stage 4
Natural point of aim matters especially on the one-handed stages. It lets you follow the front sight onto the target then press off the shot. I use a bladed bullseye-type stance for the one-handed stages, and the natural point of aim is completely different for that stance than it is for a squared-up freestyle stance. Also make sure you have a solid, consistent grip or your POI can wander.

Stage 5
As on Stage 2, the draw and time pressure complicate this stage. Also as on Stage 2, I slow down my draw just enough to ensure a perfect grip. Even though you’re shooting one-handed at 25 yards, 20 seconds is till plenty of time for five shots.

Stage 6
The draw and time pressure complicate this stage. Again, I focus on getting a perfect grip. 10 seconds is plenty of time, but there’s no time to waste. If you lack either the perfect grip or a good natural point of aim, you’ll feel it most here. This is the hardest stage for me.

Stage 7
Practice is the key to this stage. Many people find that they shoot better weak-handed than strong-handed, maybe because the weak hand has fewer bad habits to unlearn. Usually one of my strongest stages.

Stage 8
Braced kneeling (one knee down) is a good bet for shooters who can get a clear sight picture that way. I can’t because I wear bifocals, so I put both knees on the ground roughly perpendicular to the gun-target line. From the knees up, everything is the same as in standing. I think that eliminating the wobble induced by four joints (two ankles, two knees) helps make this one of my strongest stages. Good natural point of aim is essential.

Stage 9
Draw and time complicate this stage, but the steadier position make it easier for me to score well. I focus on getting a perfect grip and firing five solid hits. I build a position that gives me a solid natural point of aim in Stage 8, then I don’t move my feet when I stand up prior to Stage 9. That way I can drop back into something very close to that position for this stage. That said, if I shoot well on Stage 8, then I often get overconfident on this one and and screw it up.

Stage 10 NOTE: This one and Stage 11 are the hardest to practice because so many range masters flip out when they see someone prone on their range. Incorporating the draw can be a challenge because it’s hard to avoid sweeping everything in the grid square. Dry fire is your friend on this one.

For a clear sight picture with bifocals, I use rollover prone. I vary between holster-side up and holster-side down. This eliminates joint-related wobble but increases breath issues. Develop a regular cadence for your breath and shoot at the same point on each breath. I used to keep the gun horizontal and bisect the target horizontally instead of vertically with the top of my front sight post, but have since reverted to keeping the gun vertical. For whatever reasons, lack of a good zero seems to show up here more than on other stages. Another strong stage for me.

Stage 11
Natural point of aim is difficult to attain here until you learn to choreograph dropping from standing to prone. Once you do that consistently, your scores will go up. If you shoot holster-side up, not drawing until you’re on the ground can speed up getting into position. Again, a very strong stage for me.

-------

Let me know if you have questions.


Okie John

[Doc_Glock]

Just keep practicing and it will come to you. A lot of shooters find that they shooter better WHO than they do SHO after some practice. One theory is that they already know how to shoot, and that they have fewer bad habits to unlearn with that hand. The hard part for me is getting the sights to appear crisp and sharp in my vision. I find that a bullseye-type bladed stance is far easier to use than a squared-up stance for all of the one-handed stages.

In the past when I have shot at 25 yds, I have used a bladed stance for SHO and WHO. I definitely shoot better that way, and indeed my WHO score is usually better.

Today I used a more squared up stance as my shooting interest is self defense and I don't think the bladed stance has huge real world crossover. I am still figuring out stance and arm position for single handed shooting.

Currently I put the same foot forward as the arm, lean forward on to front leg slightly. Arm out, elbow slightly bent and attempting to keep elbow down to ground, but this is tough for me due to flexibility.

Kind of like Tom Givens here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v_GUYgKJOrs

I am going to absorb the following video later, but this is what I am after. Maybe it is better for close in, faster shooting but not ideal for further marksmanship.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eCaeTWlknik

[okie john]

Today I used a more squared up stance as my shooting interest is self defense and I don't think the bladed stance has huge real world crossover. I am still figuring out stance and arm position for single handed shooting.

You're limiting yourself.

The Humbler isn't a self-defense drill. It's a test of fundamentals, and its value lies in how it reveals your weaknesses. So if a string calls for a specific technique, such as one-handed fire, then find the best way to shoot one-handed by focusing on the fundamentals. I promise you that learning to shoot small groups at 25 yards in a bullseye-type bladed stance will pay enormous dividends in every aspect of pistol shooting because it forces you to focus on, yes, fundamentals. Without thinking about it, you'll apply them much more carefully to every aspect of pistol shooting, not just WHO or SHO stages.

It also helps to invest significant time and ammo to learn as many different techniques as you can before you categorically rule anything out. Don't just look at which one is best, focus on finding out why it's the best.

The more tools you have in your bag, the more flexibility you'll have when you need it.


Okie John

[okie john]

I shot this one again a couple of days ago on a different part of the same 16-yard range. No prone this time due to admin restrictions.

Score was 583/14X or 97% of the 600 possible points. Subtract 20% for the shorter range and you get 77.7%

Details
I used the same stuff as before except for ammo.

Pistol was the same Gen4 G19. Still completely stock except for a Dawson adjustable rear sight and an Ameriglo front blade.
Ammo was 124-grain S&B FMJ.
Holster is a K-Rounds IWB. No concealment for this one.


String 1
97/1X
http://i.imgur.com/Ldya8ji.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/Ldya8ji)

String 2
99/1X
http://i.imgur.com/age43FK.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/age43FK)

String 3
99/2X
http://i.imgur.com/jYMkPys.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/jYMkPys)

Strings 4, 5, 6
141/3X
http://i.imgur.com/FUOi1Lb.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/FUOi1Lb)

String 7
48/3X
http://i.imgur.com/aXwBAur.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/aXwBAur)

Strings 8, 9
99/4X
http://i.imgur.com/NVBYT8R.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/NVBYT8R)

What I Noticed
I had not shot a pistol between my last Humbler and this one. The only difference in these two runs was the ammo. I used S&B 124-grain FMJ for this run, which consistently groups better in this pistol than the Blazer Brass 124-grain FMJ that I used for the first run. It also hits center while the Blazer Brass load hits to the left. This pistol is properly zeroed for the S&B load. I didn't change my sights, but when you look at all of the groups together, you see that the POI for S&B is centered, and the S&B groups are slightly smaller. Those two things pushed my score up more than anything else. I still suspect that I have a grip issue, and there are more flyers than I like to see.

Let me know if you have questions.


Okie John

[JHC]

Kevin B offered me a tip to try the Humbler out at 15 yards before jumping into the deep end of the pool.

Between holidays, travel, family visiting and some rain I haven't worked this in yet. Still undecided to take his good advice or take the plunge.

[okie john]

Go for it.


Okie John

[Big Iron]

Happy New Year! If everyone will pardon the intrusion I would like to participate a bit and I like the idea that this can start to hold me accountable for my mediocre abilities and give me something to look at and work to improve. This drill is the first to close so I tackled it first. This is my first attempt at the humbler and I apologize for not reading Mr. Whites instructions closer to begin with. After my printer was out of ink, I abandoned the idea of a separate target for each string, and pretty much just stayed at 25 yards and shot the whole thing. I did score string one...90 points with one X. Right away I felt the wheels kind of come off for rapid fire. When I got done and then saw that the instructions clearly said score each string it was clear right off that I didn't learn as much as I could have from this.

12789

Hope that picture shows up...I come up with 512 points out of a possible 700. I have a problem with most everything being left...other than that one I yanked almost plumb off the paper, low. Sorry if this post is too long. I should probably start a training journal to ramble in!

[okie john]

What were the details: pistol, load, holster, sights, etc.?


Okie John

[Big Iron]

Sorry! Thanks for pointing out what I forgot. Pistol is a P2000 LEM, factory 3 dot sights and I blacked out the rear dots with a sharpie. Load was Speer 124Gr+p Gold Dot. Holster is JMCK OWB1 at 3'o'clock. These 70 rounds put me at 195 rounds through this pistol.

[okie john]

This drill is called The Humbler for a reason, and most people won't even attempt it. I see several things to consider as you look at this score:

512 is a solid first run. It's over 70%, which is better than a lot of people can do even with practice.
Nearly 50% of your total round count with this pistol was on this instance of this drill. Your score will almost definitely go up sharply as you shoot this pistol more. That's doubly true if you're new to the LEM trigger.
You're shooting at 25 yards, which is a challenge with anything.
Try to look at your performance in different contexts. The extreme spread of your overall group is probably about 15". If the group were centered on an IPSC target, then you'd have some Bs and Cs, but a LOT of A-zone hits.
The Humbler is a test of fundamentals, and one fundamental that entirely too many people overlook is having a good zero. The center of the group on this target is in the 7 ring at 10 o'clock. I'd spend some time shooting slow-fire groups at 25 yards to figure out exactly where this pistol is zeroed, then do what is required to center the group on the X. That could mean drifting the sights or getting new ones, or using a different load, or using a different sight picture. When you've done that, you'll have a baseline to understand any flaws in your technique. If you look at the runs I posted, the ONLY difference is that the load I used for the first run has a different POI than the load I used for the second. I scored 72% on the first run and nearly 78% on the second. So yeah, zero matters.

It might not hurt to sit down and make a list of every question you have about your performance on this drill, then spend the time, money, and ammunition it takes to start answering them. Post those questions here. We'll help where we can.


Okie John

[MVS]

G19 w/RMR Tula 115 ammo. AIWB, pullover concealment

Stage 1; 90/100 2x
Stage 2; 86/100
Stage 3; 78/100
Stage 4; 37/50 high left
Stage 5; 28/50 2 fliers low
Stage 6; 38/50
Stage 7; 29/50 decent group, way left
Stage 8; 41/50
Stage 9; 35/50 shot way too fast
Stage 10; 41/50
Stage 11; 43/50
Total; 546/50

I kept putting this off because it scared me, but I figured what the heck. Overall not a great performance, but it could have been worse. Rushed too much when I didn't need to. Kneeling and prone are something I almost never do with a pistol and there is some room there for easy improvement. WHO was awful. Way to the left, I will try to put a pic below.
12807

I put my gun over my range bag and shot a 10 shot group to check my zero afterwards. All shots were in the black, centered in windage but a tick high. That lets me know all the problems during the Humbler were my trigger press, not the gun

[DocGKR]

Equipment used: G19 w/RMR06 and KKM barrel firing Fed 147gr FMJ AE9FP; JMC AIWB holster under a Gore-Tex rain jacket, fleece vest, and untucked shirt (it was raining and cold).

Score for each string:
Stage 1 - Slow Fire: 100-7x
Stage 2 - Timed Fire From The Holster: 93-2x (had trouble with my draws from under all the clothing--rushed one shot and put it in the 8 ring at 1 o'clock and jerked another one into the 8 ring at 7 o'clock)
Stage 3 - Rapid Fire From The Holster: 89-1x (two in the 8 ring at 7 & 10 o'clock, and another two in the 7 ring at 1 & 10 o'clock)
Stage 4 - SHO Slow Fire: 48-0x
Stage 5 - SHO Timed Fire From The Holster: 41-0x (strangely all at around 1 o'clock right on lines between rings)
Stage 6 - SHO Rapid Fire From The Holster: 39-0x (don't know if I over compensated from the string before, but this got really weird, as all were at 10-11 o'clock)
Stage 7 - WHO Slow Fire: 40-0x (everything stringing out at 9 o'clock-6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ring)
Stage 8 - Kneeling Slow Fire: 47-1x (three 9 rings at 1 o'clock)
Stage 9 - Kneeling Timed Fire From The Holster: 45-0x (two 8 rings and one right on the 8-9 line all at 2 o'clock)
Stage 10 - Prone Slow Fire: 50-2x
Stage 11 - Prone Timed Fire From The Holster: 49-1x (put one into the 9-ring at 1 o'clock)

Total score for all strings combined: 641-14x

Anything you noticed: Ran this cold (literally and figuratively) after not shooting for 4 weeks. I had some problems with my draws, as I am not used to wearing so many layers of clothes. Had NO problems with the RMR despite the rain. Slow fire and supported fire (kneeling and prone) are strong points for me, faster shots from the holster are where I begin to break down and make more mistakes--definitely need improvement on making quicker draws and better accuracy at speed. As previously noted, shooting an RDS equipped pistol on longer range drills like this gives the illusion that I am a better shooter than I am in reality. It is clear I really need to spend more time on SHO and WHO shooting, as I have neglected these areas over the past year...