Your thoughts on the LWRC, Sean? Feel free to start another thread if you like.

[Odin Bravo One]

My thoughts on the LWRC........

I won't bother addressing the silly argument of which is better, GP or DI. Shoot what you want to shoot. I have no issues with DI guns of various lengths. They all work as designed and perform as expected. But I am not buying DPMS, Model 1 Sales, or Bushmasters either.

Where I like the GP design is for very short barrels and short suppressed barrels. Having a switchblock on a DI SBR is almost a requirement to get it running right. Suppressing a DI gun also fouls it fast and furious. Having the extra pressure and crap blown back into the action requires more frequent lubrication, and also requires cleaning at some point. I hate cleaning guns. I really do.

With the GP gun, less of that carbon and crap get blown back into the action, thus keeping it cleaner, longer. It is also much less sensitive to pressure changes from suppressed to un-suppressed and back.

In my very humble opinion, if you want a GP rifle, and cannot get your hands on a true 416, then LWRC is the way to go. LWRC did have some issues in their early days as a company, but once the employees bought out the shithead, they learned some fast lessons, and are now producing one of the top quality AR's on the market, and I would say THE best quality GP AR on the market. I have not seen, nor shot the new civilian version from Hk, so I cannot comment on that. The PSD is my only personal GP AR-type carbine, and (wait for it......wait for it......here it comes.......) it has been 100% reliable.

(Yay, another internet 100% reliable claim!!!)

Except it has been 100% over about 10,000 rounds of hard use, not 100 or 200 over the course of 5 years. One of my shooting buddies with 12" and 18" REPR's has put over 5k through each, and they are performing well.

I also have the SCAR, which is similar but different in terms of being GP operated. It works fine too. Probably only have about 6k through it. It did have a malfunction with a pre-production Tango Down mag a few years ago, but once I sent the mag back to Cahill and Company, the new ones have worked fine.

Both work great with the suppressor selected/used. It is the same suppressor for both guns.

The only thing that I find somewhat annoying is the piston in the LWRC. Because that piston is so hardened, it sounds like a tuning fork every time I shoot it. It sits and rings slightly from the vibrations. Most people don't notice it, and I won't notice when on the line with other shooters. But I also spend a lot of time shooting alone, and it can get to the point where it is like nails down a chalkboard. Especially during slow fire, accuracy practice.

Both the LWRC and SCAR are sub-MOA out to 100, though I run a 50/200 zero, and given the 4 MOA optic on each, I am pretty happy with 6 or 7" groups @ 200. Add to that, the effective range of the ammunition is about 50-85 yards, it is more than accurate enough for practical purposes. Both will feed a variety of ammunition reliably, though I shoot mainly 193, 855, and 262 through them with the occasional R2LP, and true Frangible. The recoil impulse on the LWRC is a little snappier than with a DI gun, but the SCAR is much more of a shove than a snap. Much like a 20 gauge semi-auto. The SCAR has a very soft recoil, and while it "feels" slower in cycling, it doesn't make a difference on speed drills against the clock. (The test bed drill where this became apparent is 30 rounds into a 3" circle at 7 yards, reload, and fire 1 more round in under 11 seconds)

I'm also a big fan of the 416, but given they are out of my price range for what I will spend on a hard use carbine, they can stay in the hands of those with too much money. Though, if I did own a 416, the pistol grip and buttstock would get canned immediately for something less bulky, and more streamlined. The 416 is also heavier than the same size LWRC.

I will buying another carbine this year.. For frame of reference, I own a LaRue Pred, 2 Noveske's, 2 Colt's, a Daniel Defense, the SCAR, and 2 AK's. LWRC is on the short list for this next carbine.

Hopefully that answered some of the questions from Lil' Lebo, and the BOM. And any others for that matter.

[Jay Cunningham]

Good info - thanks!

[JDM]

Awesome, thanks Sean.

The following questions are coming from someone that knows very little about AR type rifles:

Is this carrier tilt thing I read about BS, or a real concern?

Is there a service life difference between GP and DI rifles?

I believe I'll be in the market for a rifle in the next year, and I need to get up to speed.

[BWT]

Is this carrier tilt thing I read about BS, or a real concern?


http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87275 (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87275)

With a Lobster tailed carrier, and maybe a different buffer tube, I don't think you'd see any issue, but does it happen to the point it will inevitably break the gun? Depends on the gun but I'd say yes.

Now, hear this out as well, that's also 10,000+ rounds, now a BCM Midlength was pushed to 31,000 rounds by Pat Rogers without any cleaning, but you saw him wear out two BCG's.

ETA: Now I'm going to expound on this a bit more, you could consider a buffer tube breaking to be a wearing part of the gun that needs to be replaced, the only thing that concerns me is it's hard to indicate when/where it will break, and it's really a defect in the setup, but keep reading and I think it might be not so much an issue anymore.

http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html

I think a lot of the issues have been cured that have stemmed from adding a piston gun.

Everyone incorporated the strike surface into the carrier itself, they've lobster tailed the carriers, tweaked the buffer tube, etc. I think honestly, that the issues have been very mitigated.

The only glaring issue I see these days, is apparently steel cased ammo and piston ARs don't go together very well.

[DocGKR]

My experiences compel me to state that the HK416 is the best piston rifle on the market (although not entirely glitch free) and the only one I would recommend purchasing, especially for agency or unit purchase. The LWRCI M6 is an elegant design and probably the next best piston AR, however LWRCI overall reliability is more hit and miss due to QC issues--although if you get a good one, they tend to run well. I personally have had four LWRCI uppers--two had to go back to the factory due to repeated malfunctions and were finally replaced after 18 months; the two replacement uppers have run acceptably so far, but they have low round counts so long term durability is still unknown. To date, most piston conversions have not demonstrated sufficient reliability and durability across a broad spectrum of hard use.

A former combat experienced senior SEAL NCO who was formerly involved with LWRCI has written the following:

"The LWRC piston spring can break at unpredictable intervals. The variables of spring manufacturers and spring types, frequency of cycling, speed of heating due to rate of fire variations...etc, can cause the springs to break at inconsistent intervals. The ease of access to the LWRC piston components makes spring replacement rather easy. However, often when the spring breaks the piston cup itself is cracked/broken. That makes the weapon a single shot, manually cycled weapon until the component is replaced. I have broken several springs and often enough the piston cup was destroyed, as well. I have witnessed this with other LWRC weapons when I consulted for them. I have never broken any LWRC bolt components in several thousand rounds."

FWIW, this former SEAL is now happily shooting HK416's and Colt's. I am not at all impressed with the LWRCI REPR, neither are several DEA Agents I know who used them OCONUS; I believe the SEAL mentioned above severed his ties with LWRCI over the REPR fiasco...in .308 I'd rather shoot a LaRue or KAC SR25 EMC.

[BWT]

My experiences compel me to state that the HK416 is the best piston rifle on the market (although not entirely glitch free) and the only one I would recommend purchasing, especially for agency or unit purchase. The LWRCI M6 is an elegant design and probably the next best piston AR, however LWRCI overall reliability is more hit and miss due to QC issues--although if you get a good one, they tend to run well. I personally have had four LWRCI uppers--two had to go back to the factory due to repeated malfunctions and were finally replaced after 18 months; the two replacement uppers have run acceptably so far, but they have low round counts so long term durability is still unknown. To date, most piston conversions have not demonstrated sufficient reliability and durability across a broad spectrum of hard use.

A former combat experienced senior SEAL NCO who was formerly involved with LWRCI has written the following:


FWIW, this former SEAL is now happily shooting HK416's and Colt's. I am not at all impressed with the LWRCI REPR, neither are several DEA Agents I know who used them OCONUS; I believe the SEAL mentioned above severed his ties with LWRCI over the REPR fiasco...in .308 I'd rather shoot a LaRue or KAC SR25 EMC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS5uVXWBDo0

Apparently, they used to have magazine seating/feeding issues with the REPR, and it was hit and miss as Doc said.

That being said... For the premium price you charge, when you rant on and on and on about how unreliable another system is (DI), etc, and you charge that.

You better put your money where your mouth is and deliver.

I just can't wrap my mind around buying a high end firearm and babying it. I'll say this, if it was a precision bolt gun and it wasn't grouping with cheap loads or something like that, okay.

But the REPR, from what I understand had issues.

[Odin Bravo One]

I think it is important to note that you could put 10 SOF guys, competition shooters, Professional Trainers, whoever.......... in the same room with various guns and gear and you would get 10 answers to what is best, and what sucks. There is a reason SOCOM, and others went to the SERPA Holster. Because enough people inside those organizations sung it's praises............... Yet, I would bet that most members of this board wouldn't consider it a viable method of carry.

Another example.........I would not take an SR25 from KAC if it were free. And came with a *&

My experience with that hunk of shit is obviously different than others, including other SME's here.

One needs to examine not only the facts, but also be able to weed out internet crap, and at the very least.............be smart enough to know that many times, stories (good or bad) are a sample of one particular specimen. My experience with the SR25 was a single example of that gun......but it made a lasting impression, one that is likely to never be replaced with a positive opinion of it, no matter what.

Same goes for the guns I sing the praises of. They are but a single example of that make, model, caliber, etc. It doesn't mean that every gun rolling off that line is going to be totally awesome, or a total POS.

It doesn't mean I am right, or others wrong. It doesn't mean I'm wrong, and they are right. It means we have different experiences and different opinions, based on our own interaction with the devices.

And everyone..............and I mean everyone............makes shit every once in awhile. Everyone has QC, and customer service problems once in awhile. Including Colt. AimPoint. Daniel Defense. H&K. And all the other companies with stellar reputations for making a quality product.

[Jay Cunningham]

I think it is important to note that you could put 10 SOF guys, competition shooters, Professional Trainers, whoever.......... in the same room with various guns and gear and you would get 10 answers to what is best, and what sucks. There is a reason SOCOM, and others went to the SERPA Holster. Because enough people inside those organizations sung it's praises............... Yet, I would bet that most members of this board wouldn't consider it a viable method of carry.

Another example.........I would not take an SR25 from KAC if it were free. And came with a *&

My experience with that hunk of shit is obviously different than others, including other SME's here.

One needs to examine not only the facts, but also be able to weed out internet crap, and at the very least.............be smart enough to know that many times, stories (good or bad) are a sample of one particular specimen. My experience with the SR25 was a single example of that gun......but it made a lasting impression, one that is likely to never be replaced with a positive opinion of it, no matter what.

Same goes for the guns I sing the praises of. They are but a single example of that make, model, caliber, etc. It doesn't mean that every gun rolling off that line is going to be totally awesome, or a total POS.

It doesn't mean I am right, or others wrong. It doesn't mean I'm wrong, and they are right. It means we have different experiences and different opinions, based on our own interaction with the devices.

And everyone..............and I mean everyone............makes shit every once in awhile. Everyone has QC, and customer service problems once in awhile. Including Colt. AimPoint. Daniel Defense. H&K. And all the other companies with stellar reputations for making a quality product.

This post should be slightly reformatted and then made required reading. Wait - I could probably make that happen!

[smithjd]

My personal experience with the REPR is bad / good. I got on the waiting list early on, and saved about $700 (good). When my number finally rolled around, I was assured that I would get a new production model without the mag well issues. I did not, (first one was s/n 01234...I could remember that one). LWRCi was about as good as can be with it. They sent a call tag, and I got a rifle back in 10 days with a whole new lower end, optimized for the PMags, and there hasn't been a stoppage since.

I never had any other issues that others talked about, like the gas selector freezing. I think they are building rifles with every high end feature possible. Whether or not you need / want those and are willing to spend the money may be the question.

However, I have not been able to achieve the sub MOA accuracy others report getting. I can't blame the rifle though, as I just returned a T&E scope that MAY well have been the cause and bought a Nightforce. It cost me months and several hundred rounds of ammo to figure that out.

Additionally, we have a couple teams in SW WI that use M6 rifles and love them. A bunch of our team members just did a group buy of M6 series rifles. One is going back for extraction issues. Again, the customer service is as it should be.

I think Sean M's post above is spot on. On Lightfighter there are reports (albeit very few) of OBR's going back to Larue for extraction issues, and I use that as an example of what is arguably one of the best .308's on the market.

Nothing made by man is perfect...unless it was made in Austria...about 12 years ago...in 9mm, of course.

[DocGKR]

As usual, SeanM makes good points. Just so we are all on the same page--the original SR25's were finicky POS, the Mk11 sucked with numerous problems, the SR25K blew chunks, the M110 has had its share of fleas...however, the 16" SR25 EMC's have shocked me by running surprisingly well.

[ffhounddog]

My LWRCI Rifle has been 100% through 2 Pat Rogers classes and 3 VTAC classes. My 6920 had extraction problems that upon further inspection was an issue with the extractor so replaced. I had a M6A2 upper which I liked but for the price of what one person wanted to buy it at I bought a LWRCI's standard M6 rifle back in 2008 when Colts were going for 1700-2000. I wanted another high end. Other upper well I traded it for a PWS while nice just not my cup of tea.

That being as it my, I just got another M6A1 upper for a steal and I am running this one on a Aero Precision Lower with a SSA trigger (rest of the LPK is DPMS). Pretty nice trigger. Going back and forth between my 5.45 upper and the M6A1 on that one.

ffh

[Ed L]

Great info in this thread.

It seems like LWRC has gotten better over the last few years.

I remember several years ago when you would see quite a number of threads from people whose LWRCs did not run right from the factory.

This in itself doesn't prove much, however you didn't see any threads about Colt 6920s experiencing similar problems and there were certainly more Colt 6920s out there than there were LWRCs.

I observed some major issues with LWRC guns in a Pat Rogers carbine class in 2008. Half of the guns in the class (2-3) had major issues running. However the test gun that I ran for a day had zero issues.

Looking at all of this I conclude that they have gotten much, much better.

[LittleLebowski]

As usual, SeanM makes good points. Just so we are all on the same page--the original SR25's were finicky POS, the Mk11 sucked with numerous problems, the SR25K blew chunks, the M110 has had its share of fleas...however, the 16" SR25 EMC's have shocked me by running surprisingly well.

My brother swears by the SR25 he used in the Second Battle of Fallujah.

[Kyle Reese]

My brother swears by the SR25 he used in the Second Battle of Fallujah.

We have a former Marine Infantryman and DM on my team who used an SR25 extensively in combat, and he echoed these sentiments.

[rgrgordo]

Hello to all here...I'll use this thread to make my first open post.

My experience is in line with DOC and Sean - I know the history of some specialty Units chasing a more reliable SBC to meet their specific requirements; which led them down the GP path. I also know very well, the history as to why there are 14.5" GP guns (essentially it was evolutionary not necessary). That being said, I'm a big DI fan for anything beyond 10.3/11.5". However, specifically speaking to GP guns at whatever barrel length, my experience with LWRCI is mixed and inconsistant at best. I have three LWRCI guns and these are the issues I've heard of/ found:

Accuracy - very inconsistant. My SBR (10.3" barrel) is good out to 100 meters/my 14.5" guns have the most inconsistant accuracy of any carbine I own - including the DI ones that have worn out barrels (2) that I'm replacing
Operation - all of my springs and operating systems on my LWRCI guns have a minimum of 1500 rds through them and I have zero issues. My SBC has had some doubles (hammer follow) while shooting suppressed. However, I have seen this on 416's - when suppressed as well.
Customer Service - I include this in this list because it does have an effect in a big purchase. My experience with LWRCI has always been positive. Since the RFP for the IC has been published, I've had to personally push away from personal relationships (because of my job) so I've not leveraged my personal affiliations with the company and used the standard CS. I've heard several stories (mostly bad) regarding LWRCI CS. My results so far have been positive - yes that can be a legacy result, but I can't honestly say one way or the other. I do know that they their CS doesn't act as if they know my name.


In any event, I offer these observations about LWRCI guns from my own personal experience not from hear say IOT help. I hope it does...

[ffhounddog]

Thanks for this rgrgordo,

Their CS is real good. Used them once since I wanted a 14.5 and the gun sent to me was a 16 from a distributer. The box said 14.7 inch NFA and wrong Serial number but you never know what happens at places that have 100's of guns laying around. They even installed the Gemtech for free and replaced the barrel. Do not know who was at fault but it had been at the distributer for 5 months so you never know.

I had a M6A2 upper that they took a look at for free before I sold it. Only question they asked was why and I said so I can get a complete rifle.

I have to M6A1s now they are good to go and the company is good as well. Wish we had not pulled back or new rifle bid because these would be sweet but we got surplus M4's for the full time gig. Granted we are only talking 10 rifles.



Hello to all here...I'll use this thread to make my first open post.

My experience is in line with DOC and Sean - I know the history of some specialty Units chasing a more reliable SBC to meet their specific requirements; which led them down the GP path. I also know very well, the history as to why there are 14.5" GP guns (essentially it was evolutionary not necessary). That being said, I'm a big DI fan for anything beyond 10.3/11.5". However, specifically speaking to GP guns at whatever barrel length, my experience with LWRCI is mixed and inconsistant at best. I have three LWRCI guns and these are the issues I've heard of/ found:

Accuracy - very inconsistant. My SBR (10.3" barrel) is good out to 100 meters/my 14.5" guns have the most inconsistant accuracy of any carbine I own - including the DI ones that have worn out barrels (2) that I'm replacing
Operation - all of my springs and operating systems on my LWRCI guns have a minimum of 1500 rds through them and I have zero issues. My SBC has had some doubles (hammer follow) while shooting suppressed. However, I have seen this on 416's - when suppressed as well.
Customer Service - I include this in this list because it does have an effect in a big purchase. My experience with LWRCI has always been positive. Since the RFP for the IC has been published, I've had to personally push away from personal relationships (because of my job) so I've not leveraged my personal affiliations with the company and used the standard CS. I've heard several stories (mostly bad) regarding LWRCI CS. My results so far have been positive - yes that can be a legacy result, but I can't honestly say one way or the other. I do know that they their CS doesn't act as if they know my name.


In any event, I offer these observations about LWRCI guns from my own personal experience not from hear say IOT help. I hope it does...