Standing Rock protestor injury/LTL devices question

[Nephrology]

So, I am sure many of you are familiar with the Standing Rock protests that are ongoing in ND. I am sure many of you are also aware that a protestor was recently very seriously injured by some kind of explosive/concussive device and was flown to Minneapolis for surgery at the U of M. You can see photos that are allegedly of the protestor & her injuries by clicking this link here (http://usuncut.com/resistance/standing-rock-protesters-violently-assaulted-police-graphic-photos/). Graphic images so viewer discretion is advised.

The cause of her injuries seems to be hotly debated. Protestors are saying this is the result of a concussion grenade or other LTL weapon deployed by LE that "exploded on her arm". LE is saying this is the result of her or her fellow protestors attempting to deploy a homemade explosive device/IED. Either way, based on the photos, it seems like a really serious injury that could have only been caused by very close proximity to an explosive of some kind.

My question is this: Do LE have access to or routinely use LTL devices that could cause this kind of injury? If so, what are those devices? Is this something that is seen commonly or has historically occurred when these devices were deployed?

I ask because the only similar grenades I can think of I believe are hand-thrown and seem unlikely to just land on her arm and blow up. That said, I don't know what I don't know, and the very little I do know about LTL concussion grenades I learned from playing Rainbow 6 and watching Cops. I also don't know if this looks like an injury caused by a home-made explosive, or if so, what kind. Seems like a very focal injury that spared her hands, suggesting that at least if it was a home-made device she was probably not carrying it when it went off. Either way, I don't really know much about either. Any/all input is welcome.

Also - just to make this clear - not interested in having a conversation about the politics or the protests at all. Seems controversial, not really my thing and probably not the scope of this sub-forum. This is mostly to better inform my understanding of her injuries + their mechanism.

[txdpd]

LTL is "less than lethal" not "non-lethal".

At first glance, due to the lack of apparent scorching/melting, burns and damage to the chest area of the jacket, that was probably not caused by an explosive or any LE device. It really looks like a superficial gunshot wound from a rifle or shotgun. But that's just what I'm pulling out of my ass based off a couple internet photos.

[Nephrology]

LTL is "less than lethal" not "non-lethal".

At first glance, due to the lack of apparent scorching/melting, burns and damage to the chest area of the jacket, that was probably not caused by an explosive or any LE device. It really looks like a superficial gunshot wound from a rifle or shotgun. But that's just what I'm pulling out of my ass based off a couple internet photos.

Yeah, I agree, there doesn't appear to be much in the way of fire/burn; maybe some on the wooly synthetic lining of her jacket but definitely not a lot. I agree that it looks like a very focused injury too. Supposedly the surgeons removed "shrapnel" from her arm during surgery but I have no idea what that actually means.

[jetfire]

There are documented instances of flash-bangs causing injury like that when they detonate in proximity or contact with someone's body, so it's not completely beyond the scope of imagination that those injuries could have been caused by a LTL grenade.

Although with that being said, I'm deeply skeptical of any claims made by the #noDAPL smacktards since they've been caught lying on multiple occasions to further their cause.

[Nephrology]

There are documented instances of flash-bangs causing injury like that when they detonate in proximity or contact with someone's body, so it's not completely beyond the scope of imagination that those injuries could have been caused by a LTL grenade.


Here's an article (http://switzerland.indymedia.org/it/2009/11/72211.shtml) documenting the injuries sustained by a reporter caused by an LE deployed concussion grenade. Assuming the info in the link is accurate, the injury definitely looks like it could have been plausibly caused by a similar device.

[Chaswick]

The take-away I got out of this incident was the deployment of IEDs...that should be an eye-opener to my fellow LEOs...

[John Hearne]

The counter story, on NPR this morning, is that LE did not deploy any flash bangs that night. Typically, you don't throw just one. Had there been a history of other flash bangs deployed that night, which I'm sure would be captured on several hundred smart phones, I'd give the story more credence.

[El Cid]

I suppose anything is possible - but had a buddy who had a bang go off as he removed from his vest to store in his vehicle. It burned his arm and hand pretty badly but nothing like what's in those photos. There were also pics a while back in the media of a fed (DoD had given LE some that were bad) who had one cook off on his vest while he was seated in his car. Lots of burns on him and the seat.

I can't imagine an injury like that from a bang unless she was holding it in an attempt to throw it back. But I'm no expert. Maybe some of our Tac Med or bomb tech folks will weigh in on this.

[Dagga Boy]

My old team was notorious for catching everything on fire, and some very unlucky NFD deployments directly on to people prior to changes in deployment criteria from experience (visual confirmation). If it was possible to put a NFD device on a flammable bedspread or curtains....my guys were the ones. With that said, and experience going back to the days of actual "Stun Grenades", I have never seen anything like that ever. I have seen that at the morgue involving accidental explosions of real munitions (several large military bases in our county) as well as accidental explosions with other devices...often illegal. My opinion is the device was from her side and not from the LE side.

[LSP552]

The only NFD I'm aware of that could cause an injury similar to that is the Omni blast 100 (I think that's the model no). The plastic body fragments and if you were to tamp it on flesh, it's ugly. I'm personally aware of a role player rolling over on one in some foreign student training. It's been a lot of years ago but a quick web search still shows a plastic casing.

[abu fitna]

Additional UX IED recovered at location. Seems to settle the argument of which side done brung it.

Unfortunately wont likely be the last we see of that TTP at major protests in fhe coming year. Though I would wish very much to be wrong in that.

[TGS]

Additional UX IED recovered at location.

Do you have a reference? I did a google search but nothing came up.

[abu fitna]

Do you have a reference? I did a google search but nothing came up.

Media reporting at http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/news/Propane-cylinders-recovered-at-explosion-site-of-DAPL-protest-402544435.html

As always public info only so please take with a grain or a few pounds of salt.

[Wondering Beard]

Another look: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/11/25/pipeline-protestor-sophia-wilansky-not-injured-concussion-grenade/

[Nephrology]

Another look: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/11/25/pipeline-protestor-sophia-wilansky-not-injured-concussion-grenade/

Interesting. Thanks for the replies, all. The thing that I have a hard time explaining is why her injury was localized to her proximal arm. If she was handling the IED when it went off (presuming this was the origin of her injuries), it should have damaged her hand(s), not her bicep/elbow. If she was cradling it, I presume she would have had diffuse injuries of upper/lower arm, possibly both arms. I also assume if it was a propane explosive there would be more burns, too, but from the photos it doesn't look like the recovered cylinders exploded. It seems like if it was an IED, it must have been a smaller charge attached to the cylinder that detonated prematurely and injured Ms Wilansky without detonating the propane cylinder. That would explain what is described as human tissue on the propane cylinder in the Bearing Arms link.

At the same time, I have a hard time understanding how it could be an LE device, too. The only plausible explanation I can find (assuming it was an LE device) would be that it was thrown/tossed and either landed on her arm or detonated directly adjacent to her arm while in the air, without causing significant burn/heat injury. This also strikes me as extremely unlikely but still possible, per the responses you all have given me.

Still not sure if I am any close to understanding what happened but I am definitely better educated than when I posted this a few days ago. thanks for the thoughtful responses, all.

edit: One thing I hadn't considered was that maybe her injury was caused by one of those propane tanks rupturing prematurely, which honestly makes the most sense given her wounds. If the propane tank was punctured, it seems plausible to me that the expanding gas would "explode" with enough force to seriously injure her without necessarily causing any burns. This strikes me as the most likely explanation given the sum of evidence I have now...

[Hambo]

Nephrology, if you do a search for LE distraction devices you can find plenty of info on them. We used steel body devices that could be reloaded with charges from the manufacturer. All you had to do was unscrew the fired one and screw in a new one complete with pin, etc. The bodies had a finite service life, but it was quite a few firings. The light/noise vented out of holes in each end, and while they could blow stuff around the floor there were no fragments. I had one instructor (ex-EOD guy) who said he held onto one while it detonated with no ill effects.

The simplest answer is that LE didn't have any bombs and the protestors did.

[Dagga Boy]

Nephrology, if you do a search for LE distraction devices you can find plenty of info on them. We used steel body devices that could be reloaded with charges from the manufacturer. All you had to do was unscrew the fired one and screw in a new one complete with pin, etc. The bodies had a finite service life, but it was quite a few firings. The light/noise vented out of holes in each end, and while they could blow stuff around the floor there were no fragments. I had one instructor (ex-EOD guy) who said he held onto one while it detonated with no ill effects.

The simplest answer is that LE didn't have any bombs and the protestors did.

I converted my guys off the old Accuracy Systems stuff (which was awesome in performance, but I felt held a lot of potential liability) to the Def Tec #25's. While performance was not as good, we could throw a lot of them. Their safety made it easy to prep every room prior to entry on dynamic entries. Yes, you can even hold them when the go off, and I have had countless numbers of them go off literally at my feet in training, and I have been inside vehicles when they were deployed inside. They were a very effective tool and very easy to use and work with safely at an operational level.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've seen the aftermath of people being too close to the vent ports on devices like the Def Tec 25s that DB noted, it doesn't look like what the picture shows.

[Palmguy]

I have a little bit of experience in LTL munition design. I'm skeptical that this was caused by a device deployed by LE; my initial impression would lean towards the protestor IED theory.

[Coyotesfan97]

I've have LSDDs ignite at my feet. I've seen them ignite in closed areas within feet of people with no ill effects. I've never done it but I've watched venders hold them when they ignite. There's only a couple of devices I can think of that might cause injuries other than burns if you were holding them when they ignite. Both are pretty rare now in a market dominated by DefTec and CTS. As it's been mentioned the ports on both are on the bottom and top of the device.

I can't see how a LSDD would cause that type of injury which sure looks like a fragmentation injury.

[Risto]

I also agree that this injury was unlikely from a NFDD. But it got me thinking about when I went through training they gave a story.. wasn't there a swat cop in a Carolina what was somehow killed from trying to re-pin his NFDD? I might have been a femoral injury; I can't remember. If I recall correctly you could theoretically hold the bang by the canister, but where the gas escapes is the "dangerous" part. Like others have mentioned, I've had them literally go off at my boots. Even the gas end, it just pushed itself away from my foot.

[Coyotesfan97]

I've never heard about that but I was trained and taught once you pull the pin the device is being thrown. Even if something changes in your target area and you have throw to a different area. Don't mess around trying to re pin a device.

I've seen the older Def Tec 25 bodies do some crazy things. They had one big port on the bottom and six small holes on the top. One of our TLs had a device go off in the pouch in his vest which was lying on the floor in one of our brand new Academy classrooms. It launched straight up and put a perfect circle in one of the ceiling tiles. They left the tile there for a long time. I never figured out how he pulled the pin or why the spoon wasn't inside the pouch...

[Rex G]

Hmm, protesters with IEDs. I reckon that Stupid Bowl LI may prove to be interesting.

[Hambo]

I've never heard about that but I was trained and taught once you pull the pin the device is being thrown. Even if something changes in your target area and you have throw to a different area. Don't mess around trying to re pin a device.

I was taught you could re-pin them, which seemed pretty stupid. The dude with the device is combat ineffective while he holds it, waiting to render it safe.

[Dagga Boy]

I was taught you could re-pin them, which seemed pretty stupid. The dude with the device is combat ineffective while he holds it, waiting to render it safe.

We had that on a couple occasions, especially when we started doing verification on the room. Normal procedure was to exit the building when safe and deploy outdoors with notification. One in particular, the entire situation changed inside a house that we had one of our guys in eight hours earlier undercover. The master bedroom housing the main suspect had been filled with a bunch of little kids, most sleeping on the floor. The officer who was assigned to bang that room obviously held up and ended up deploying the bang in the back yard.

[Coyotesfan97]

That's exactly what we did

[Chuck Whitlock]

I would ASSUME (big word there) that the "shrapnel" from the wound is being examined by BATF or some such, and we may hear something definitive.

[arcticlightfighter]

Funny how this has all "gone away"