Premium Rimfire Recommendations

[JSGlock34]

I'm curious to hear membership thoughts on higher end .22 rimfire pistols, such as the Smith & Wesson 41 or Beretta 87T/89 series. Is the juice worth the squeeze? I own a Ruger 22/45 for plinking (and for use as a rimfire suppressor host), but I'm not particularly attached to the pistol, which I've found reliable but mediocre in terms of accuracy. I'll happily spend extra (within reason) to drive tacks. I recognize some of these models are a bit harder to track down, but again I'm also willing to wait for what I want. The introduction of the Ruger Mark IV has attracted my attention, so I'm willing to give Ruger another chance, but I was curious if anyone had experience with the premium .22 semi-autos?

[ACP230]

My son used to shoot a Marvel .22 Conversion on a .45 frame at local matches
and at the Nationals at Camp Perry. Most accurate .22 he used.

I was going to buy a Smith M41 for years but never quite did.

[SLG]

I have a few 41's. Meh. I think the older ones are better, but mine were made in the last 10 years or so. Bob Loveless got me hooked on them, and it's been downhill ever since.

I have a strong desire to try a Volquartsen pistol, and I believe that will give you what you are looking for, but alas, I have no experience with it.

[JSGlock34]

I have a strong desire to try a Volquartsen pistol, and I believe that will give you what you are looking for, but alas, I have no experience with it.

I imagine Volquartsen will introduce some MKIV derived designs in the future...having field stripped a Mark III...I'll wait.

[Malamute]

I found a 1960s model 41 for my dad. I had it a while, it was pretty easy to hit prairie dogs at 75-80 yards. He ended up selling or trading it some time later and flirted with a number of other nice 22s, a Colt Woodsman Match Target with the heavy barrel, then a High Standard target model, I forget the name.

I had one of the 1970s Ruger Mk1 target with the 6 7/8" heavy tapered barrel. Besides liking the looks of it over any other Ruger version, it shot very well. A buddy and I were hitting a .22 50 rd cartridge box consistently at 65 yards. With the newer target triggers available, it would probably be a better gun yet. I hope I can acquire another Mk1 or Mk2 Target with the 6 7/8" barrel. The 5 1/2" bull barrels shot well, but I didn't like the looks as much. I do really like the grip angle of the original Ruger 22 autos.

The older Rugers, unless just stiff or have a burr somewhere, aren't that hard to put back together once a simple trick is understood. The gun has to be rotated and the trigger pulled so the hammer drops forward, and the hammer strut ends up in the right place for the housing to move into place. Its been 30 years or so since I did one, but talked a guy through it on the phone once, he said it was pretty easy after understanding it. Many are very stiff, a little work with a stone deburring the parts would probably help.

[Jim Watson]

What is "spend extra within reason"?

I have an elderly High Standard that Ransom Rested an average of a smidge under an inch at 50 yards with its best load.
I do not know about support for the old High Standards and I do not know about the current Texas High Standards.

I have read about big time target shooters using Kart, Marvel, or Nelson uppers on 1911 lowers and of them running a constant search for Haemmerli 208s. Or just buying Pardinis.

[JSGlock34]

What is "spend extra within reason"?

I have an elderly High Standard that Ransom Rested an average of a smidge under an inch at 50 yards with its best load.
I do not know about support for the old High Standards and I do not know about the current Texas High Standards.

I have read about big time target shooters using Kart, Marvel, or Nelson uppers on 1911 lowers and of them running a constant search for Haemmerli 208s. Or just buying Pardinis.

I'd say the S&W Model 41 Performance Center (which appears impossible to find) represents the top end of what I'd be looking to spend here. So in the $1500 range.

ACP230's post prompted me to look around the Marvel website, and I'm intrigued. I have conversion kits for various pistols that I've used as training analogs, but I never thought of them as capable of high levels of accuracy. The reviews on the Marvel kits seem to indicate that they are indeed quite accurate. I have a Wilson Combat 1911 - would one of these conversion kits really just drop on? Or do you have to monkey with the internals (like the mainspring) to get it to run reliably? Is there a drawback to running one of the kits on the Wilson? I know Wilson Combat used to sell rebranded Marvel kits.

On the other hand, I just discovered that these Nighthawk/Marvel custom guns are out there...

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/599488000/599488732/pix416572078.jpg

[P.E. Kelley]

I shot bullseye long enough to make Master and earn a spot in the 2600 club. Tested lots of 22's and owned and sold two Mdl 41's, both
would shoot very near 1.5" at 50 with PREMIUM ammo ONLY! (aka Eley 10x) Couple of fellow shooters ran High Standards and they were great
except for some magazine issues. I tuned several Browning Buckmarks for Bullseye including one for a State Champion. (built his 45 as well)
The gun in the photo and two others like it will shoot 1.5" or slightly better at 50 yards with CCI mini mags, CCI Standard Velocity and Green Tag.
The Ruger MkII Gov't Target with 6 7/8" bull barrel were factory guaranteed to shoot 1" at 25 yards.
http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s/v-2/p295115436-4.jpg

[Toonces]

A few points:

1. The one time I checked, at 50 yards, rested, with CCI standard velocity, my Hammerli 208S was just under 1" for 10 shots. My Ruger MK II Govt stainless was 1.25". That's a lot of price differential for 1/4". I imagine both would have shot smaller groups with good ammo.
2. I was a range officer at the Michigan Tech Pistol Club from 1994-1998. We had 9 Ruger MK II 5-1/2" bull barrel pistols, and a Ransom Rest bolted to the floor for a range of about 23-1/2 yards. We also tested a good number of other Rugers, for a total of about 20 pistols. They were all one hole, or very close to it. Cover the 10 shot groups with a nickel most of the time, a quarter for the bad ones. No one was using high dollar ammo, it was all CCI standard or PMC yellow box, IIRC.
3. A long time ago, I had a conversation with Bob Day, the Air Force armorer from when the Air Force was a force to be reckoned with in Bullseye competition. In his experience, group size at 25 yard should be multiplied by 2.7 for a good estimate of 50 yard groups.
4. Fixed barrel .22 pistols are the most accurate group of commonly available pistols out there.
5. For driving tacks, good triggers count. Many of the normal Ruger/Buck Mark pistols do not have good triggers. It's hard to beat the trigger of an Olympic class target pistol.

Good luck and have fun.

[Poconnor]

Anybody try A Nelson 1911 conversion? Compare to a marvel?

[Malamute]

What is "spend extra within reason"?

I have an elderly High Standard that Ransom Rested an average of a smidge under an inch at 50 yards with its best load.
I do not know about support for the old High Standards and I do not know about the current Texas High Standards...


On Rimfire Central forum, theres a High Standard section. Theres a guy there that worked at High Standard, he has some parts, and I think is making some. May be worth looking around or asking if you need anything.

[Bergeron]

Regarding the efforts to make a Marvel kit run, I went with a 17lb mainspring, no ejector, lightweight mainspring cap, strut & hammer, plus I shoot Federal Aitomatch, but that might be an extreme example.

I'd feel more confident in a reliable conversion if the host gun was a 9mm instead of a .45, but I imagine that there's a wide range of experiences out there.

[P.E. Kelley]

Did someone (Toonces) say Bob Day???
I chatted with Mr. Day (RIP) before I bought my 2nd upper. He asked me " you want a Douglas or Marlin Micro Groove?" I was
stunned that those two were mentioned in the same breath! He went on to explain that in his testing the Marlin barrel proved
equally accurate and less picky about ammo to get that accuracy.

http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s/v-2/p1511550273-4.jpg

[Toonces]

Did someone (Toonces) say Bob Day???
I chatted with Mr. Day (RIP) before I bought my 2nd upper. He asked me " you want a Douglas or Marlin Micro Groove?" I was
stunned that those two were mentioned in the same breath! He went on to explain that in his testing the Marlin barrel proved
equally accurate and less picky about ammo to get that accuracy.

That's...interesting about the Marlin barrels. There are Marlin Micro Groove rifles that shoot phenomenally well, but I wouldn't have thought to test the barrels in a bullseye pistol role.

I have a 6" Day like the one on the left in your picture. I removed the sight rib and mounted an Aluminum Wiegand scope mount directly to the top. The pistol was too heavy with an Ultradot and the rib, and it put the scope high enough to seem "off". I never had a dedicated .22 lower, so I ran it on my .45 lower. For me, there is no comparison in my ability to hit with the "heavy" 3.5 lb .45 trigger weight compared to the 2 lb trigger on my Hammerli, so the Day kit just sits and collects dust. I've never benched it at 50 yards, so I don't have a group size to compare for accuracy, but I have no reason to doubt it's capability based on the limited amount I shot it at 25 yards.

[P.E. Kelley]

Anybody try A Nelson 1911 conversion? Compare to a marvel?

Yes, I have two Nelson (Bob Marvel) units LOVE THEM!


https://youtu.be/led8g9TCXPA

[OlongJohnson]

I tuned several Browning Buckmarks for Bullseye including one for a State Champion.

I'd be interested in learning more about what you did. I have several Buck Marks, and more accurate ones are more interesting. I have found a variety of things to check that too much time spent reading online still didn't reveal, and am familiar with the Silhouette part swaps. Even hoarded some of the Silhouette sear springs and triggers before they became NLA. Happy to work by PM or other methods if you prefer.

[jtcarm]

What is "spend extra within reason"?

I have an elderly High Standard that Ransom Rested an average of a smidge under an inch at 50 yards with its best load.
I do not know about support for the old High Standards and I do not know about the current Texas High Standards.

I have read about big time target shooters using Kart, Marvel, or Nelson uppers on 1911 lowers and of them running a constant search for Haemmerli 208s. Or just buying Pardinis.

An old HS Victor or Citation would be my pick.

[farscott]

Volquartsen Scorpion is my choice. I have several, in both barrel lengths and in alloy and steel construction, and I have built even more from components. Much more reliable than my Model 41 and a bit more accurate with good ammo.

[Jim Watson]

On Rimfire Central forum, theres a High Standard section. Theres a guy there that worked at High Standard, he has some parts, and I think is making some. May be worth looking around or asking if you need anything.

I have been in touch.
High Standard of Texas has folded, the CEO says he is going to Montana with the brand name.
In the meanwhile said previous employee is running Interarms of Texas with High Standard (type) parts. "Type" emphasized to avoid trademark infringement.

I bought three magazines from them, the latest type with "A" stamp to give me five for Steel Challenge.
One is perfect, it fits and feeds as well as the originals.
The other two feed but don't slide lock - which should not occur in SC anyhow - and are a bit sticky in the mag well, taking some jiggling to unload.

[john c]

The pistols previously discussed (S&W 41, High Standard, etc) belong to an older generation of match pistol. The newer generation, like the Pardini SP or Feinwerkbau AW93 feature much lower bore axis and infinitely adjustable triggers. These, in addition to orthopedic grips, make these guns much easier to shoot than the older generation. I don't think the mechanical accuracy has improved, but the man/machine interface is so much better that it's easier to get results.

Unfortunately, in the past few years these pistols have climbed out of the $1500 range. To stay in your budget, look at picking up a Walther GSP off Gunbroker. You can find older ones in the $700 range, and the later ones with the two stage triggers in the $1200 range. If you're lucky, you can find a newer model with the new trigger and bottom grip screw for the price of an older model. Or check out the Benelli MP95. They're $1021 from Larry's Guns, but without orthopedic grips.

[peterb]

Volquartsen Scorpion is my choice. I have several, in both barrel lengths and in alloy and steel construction, and I have built even more from components. Much more reliable than my Model 41 and a bit more accurate with good ammo.

What’s been your experience putting one of the LLV uppers on a standard frame? I’ve already got a Volquartsen sear and trigger in my old Ruger, and it’d be neat to make it even more accurate.

[Toonces]

An old HS Victor or Citation would be my pick.

The most beautiful pistol I ever sold was a 7-1/4" fluted barrel 107 Citation with a barrel weight. Accurate, nice trigger, absolutely gorgeous pistol...when the damn thing wasn't giving me alibis in the indoor bullseye league I used to shoot. That was the early 2000s, and some of the magazine options available today were not around. Back then it was either a used original or a Triple-K. The pistol's beauty wasn't enough to overcome the annoyance the magazine (feed) issues that were not solved with a rather expensive additional original HS magazine, or the five Triple-K mags I foolishly bought. Since I had a Ruger MK II Gov't and a Hammerli 208s that rarely/never alibied, who needed that kind of aggravation?

TL, DR...I would never recommend and old HS to someone who wants to SHOOT. Unless tinkering is the goal, buy something else that will work all the time.