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Sal Picante
11-14-2016, 06:56 PM
New Rulebook here: http://www.idpa.com/misc/Rulebook%202017.pdf

Sal Picante
11-14-2016, 06:59 PM
Hit post too fast: (FTDR!)


1 second per point down.
Classifier is much simplified (72 rds instead of 90) - new classification limits, etc.
PCC (pistol caliber carbine)
Fault lines (on standards only)
New type of penalty: Flagrant Procedural...


Kinda like it...

ranger
11-14-2016, 07:18 PM
My IDPA club is shooting a PCC like event when we have a 5th Sunday on the calendar. Very popular. Good to see it formalized.

Luke
11-14-2016, 08:27 PM
Lame sauce.

JJC
11-14-2016, 08:54 PM
So when do they plan on bringing the fun factor back?

I used to enjoy IDPA. Now it is just a loooooooooooong list of rules that appear intent on handicapping the shooter instead of the gear.

Peally
11-14-2016, 09:37 PM
Lame sauce.

Pretty much sums my feelings up, but then I'm no longer a member after their Trump BS broke the final straw.

I've trolled around making fun of the new changes too much to rewrite them though.

taadski
11-14-2016, 11:19 PM
Flagrant Procedural...

Damn it! They finally figured me out! 😈

Sal Picante
11-14-2016, 11:34 PM
So when do they plan on bringing the fun factor back?

I used to enjoy IDPA. Now it is just a loooooooooooong list of rules that appear intent on handicapping the shooter instead of the gear.

I feel that way sometimes... Just kidding: I look at local matches where I shoot 10 points down all night SHO and then think, "These rules are going to fuck the average Joe"...

Luke
11-14-2016, 11:36 PM
Spoken like a true GM.

your comment really did make me smile. I'd love to be there one day.

Edwin
11-15-2016, 02:24 AM
There's so much shit here that makes no sense.

PCC
10 round PCC limit
Longer CCP barrel length but making the other dimensions shorter?
No more tac sequence?
No mandatory reloads?
Plate racks are legal now? I'm not complaining but that seems odd considering their past behavior.
No more memory stages? I didn't even know memory stages were allowed. I just assumed they weren't.

HopetonBrown
11-15-2016, 06:23 AM
Wilson makes Commanders and 9mm carbines now. Makes total sense.

Luke
11-15-2016, 06:50 AM
No more mandatory reloads!?

Edit: in my mind I was thinking now you don't have to run dry, can somebody clarify?

MGW
11-15-2016, 07:05 AM
Retention reloads, or whatever they call them, are gone? They're going to use fault lines to determine if you are behind cover? That would fix two of my biggest complaints if true.

Zincwarrior
11-15-2016, 08:53 AM
Retention reloads, or whatever they call them, are gone? They're going to use fault lines to determine if you are behind cover? That would fix two of my biggest complaints if true.

Looks like you can still do them if you want.

I am not sure how the faultlines work in relation to cover calls. aka-can the So still call cover on your top half?
While I like fault lines is USPSA I am of mixed view of them in IDPA as it helps make you think about staying behind cover.

1 second per point down. Thats fine.

I like these:



3.6 Cover and Reloads

3.6.1 When the shooter runs the firearm empty in the open, the shooter may reload in the open and continue engaging

targets as needed or move to the next shooting position.

3.6.2 In stages with cover or concealment, shooters may reload standing still or on the move anytime as long as they

are not exposed to unengaged targets during the reload.

3.6.3 Dropping a loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip does not incur a penalty as long as the shooter retrieves

and properly stows the loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip prior to the firing of the last shot in the string

of fire.

3.6.4 Malfunction Clearing: When clearing a malfunction, the magazine or speed loader/moon clip and/or ammunition

that may have caused the malfunction does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no penalty if

dropped.

Peally
11-15-2016, 09:21 AM
The problem isn't shooting around cover/barricades, its that without fault lines people are judged and penalized on completely arbitrary calls by what an RO judges is the "cover line". That's fine in figure skating, but has absolutely no place in a competition where hard numbers and hundredths of seconds determine a winner. That's why people complain about it.

GJM
11-15-2016, 10:39 AM
I took a quick look at the rules, and what would be helpful would be a redline version, making the changes easy to see.

jlw
11-15-2016, 11:17 AM
I haven't shot any matches of any of the recognized organizations in several years. I did read over the new rule book last night, and I actually like some of the changes and may rejoin IDPA simply to reclassify under the new classifier and shoot some local matches. We no longer have any sanctioned matches in these parts.

My likes:

I really like the 1 second per point down change.

I like that the retention reload is gone from the classifier. Twice I was on course to make SSP master (old times) going into that string...

The hubbub about reloads and cover seems to have been addressed.

Dislikes:

I'm still grumpy over duty gear being excluded from sanctioned matches, but as there are no sanctioned matches in these parts, it's moot.

Still too many divisions- if the classifier is valid, what difference does having a hammer/SA trigfer or a striker make?

Zincwarrior
11-15-2016, 11:18 AM
The problem isn't shooting around cover/barricades, its that without fault lines people are judged and penalized on completely arbitrary calls by what an RO judges is the "cover line". That's fine in figure skating, but has absolutely no place in a competition where hard numbers and hundredths of seconds determine a winner. That's why people complain about it.

Not disagreeing. At the same time it takes out the the thinking of it you are in cover as well. I'm surprised at the change though as that makes it significantly closer to USPSA. I thought they wanted to stay away from the "USPSA with shoot me first vests" comparison.

One way around it is to have the same pain in the butt SO remaining stationed at the stage so everyone is treated to their judging equally.


I'm still grumpy over duty gear being excluded from sanctioned matches, but as there are no sanctioned matches in these parts, it's moot.
If its helpful, police may compete in their duty gear. However, whenever I see them in their duty gear I think: 1) how do you move in all that gear? 2) how do sit down? :)

jlw
11-15-2016, 11:39 AM
If its helpful, police may compete in their duty gear. However, whenever I see them in their duty gear I think: 1) how do you move in all that gear? 2) how do sit down? :)

Duty gear is allowed at club level matches, but it is not allowed in a sanctioned match.

Usually on the forums the discussion of duty gear at matches devolves into a "some guy showed up gaming it with X holster claiming it was duty gear".

I get that administratively it is easier to simply require concealment across the board.

Sal Picante
11-15-2016, 11:55 AM
Retention reloads, or whatever they call them, are gone? They're going to use fault lines to determine if you are behind cover? That would fix two of my biggest complaints if true.

I think retention reloads and tac-loading are still very much in the game because dropping a partially loaded mag is still a penalty. (But, correct, they aren't part of the classifier)

Zincwarrior
11-15-2016, 12:04 PM
Duty gear is allowed at club level matches, but it is not allowed in a sanctioned match.

Usually on the forums the discussion of duty gear at matches devolves into a "some guy showed up gaming it with X holster claiming it was duty gear".

I get that administratively it is easier to simply require concealment across the board.

Thanks I did not know that.

ST911
11-15-2016, 12:23 PM
I took a quick look at the rules, and what would be helpful would be a redline version, making the changes easy to see.

That would be helpful.

Other than the scoring and classifier, it doesn't appear that the other changes are very significant?

Sal Picante
11-15-2016, 12:42 PM
That would be helpful.

Other than the scoring and classifier, it doesn't appear that the other changes are very significant?

PCC, fault lines, reload when you run dry anywhere, no retention reload on the classifier, new "flagrant penalty" (Not sure when this applies), 1 second down per point down...
Classifier is shorter and simpler, barrel lengths are shorter and longer on somethings...

Yeah.

Jim Watson
11-15-2016, 01:07 PM
PCC is not at all compliant with IDPA principles and policies. And if we are stuck with it, it is not well enough described. What are the Ready and safe transport positions for a carbine?

Another grade of penalty with a lot of overlap and contradiction? Phooey.

Real WTP BUGs instead of sawn off service pistols, good, those go in CCP.

There is a comparison at
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6numg5koj8qt1ds/IDPA%20Rulebook%202017%20vs.%202015.pdf?dl=0

BigT
11-15-2016, 01:12 PM
PCC may make me interested in IDPA again. But that's partially a local legislation thing.

The 1 second a point thing is dumb and should be killed with fire.

The old classifier was a very useful skills test. Dumping that was silly.

Zincwarrior
11-15-2016, 02:02 PM
PCC, fault lines, reload when you run dry anywhere, no retention reload on the classifier, new "flagrant penalty" (Not sure when this applies), 1 second down per point down...
Classifier is shorter and simpler, barrel lengths are shorter and longer on somethings...

Yeah.

I don't get the fl;agrant penalty thing.
What is it? How is it different than a FTDR? Why did we need it?

PCC's...yea we see where thats coming from.

taadski
11-15-2016, 02:12 PM
Just thought I’d point out that this is still in the draft phase, out for member comment/criticism, etc. FWIW.

Had the chance to skim it over this am. Couple points…

There are some clarifications that seem might be helpful re reloading in the open; specifically when there aren’t any “unengaged” threats in view. I like those changes if I’m reading them correctly. In battery loading and not retaining a mag with rounds in it is still illegal. i.e., no speed reloads. (shrug)

I agree that tac loading is still going to be an important part of the game, especially since it doesn’t appear to be limited to a “position of cover” any longer like in the current 2015 rulebook. Before the last rulebook, considerable gaming advantage could be had with savvy well timed RWRs. :)

The fault lines appear to just be an addendum that allows course design to have them if desired by staff. Nothing mandatory, unless I’m missing something. It doesn’t change the way cover is going to be called by the SO, as the cover “fault line” is still going to change for every target in an array per the same old cover rules. So we’ll still have all of our beloved subjectivity. No surprise there.

The one second down thing, while unnecessary IMO, isn’t going to change the outcome of the top bunch of spots much at the majority of matches. I’ve been tallying our local clubs’ results looking at scores both ways over the last year or so. The guys that shoot fast and accurately are still winning the matches in both cases. ;) The folks that are going to get crushed are the MM/SS hoser types.

I’m glad they’ve added PCC. I look forward to dabbling with a carbine in both IDPA and USPSA.

And I’m still pissed they disallowed (legitimate) duty equipment at major matches. I stopped spending my money traveling to IDPA majors when that change came about.

In the end, like it or not, it’s just another game. I happen to think it's fun. :D

taadski
11-15-2016, 02:26 PM
There is a comparison at https://www.dropbox.com/s/6numg5koj8qt1ds/IDPA%20Rulebook%202017%20vs.%202015.pdf?dl=0


That's really helpful. Thanks.

Sal Picante
11-15-2016, 02:45 PM
The old classifier was a very useful skills test. Dumping that was silly.

I don't disagree, but there were some really redundant things in there... The 1-shot El Pres, for example, and 3 strings worth of Mozambiques in the first "section". So boring.

ST911
11-15-2016, 02:54 PM
PCC, fault lines, reload when you run dry anywhere, no retention reload on the classifier, new "flagrant penalty" (Not sure when this applies), 1 second down per point down...
Classifier is shorter and simpler, barrel lengths are shorter and longer on somethings...

Yeah.

My bad, wrong question for what I was trying to ask.

Slalom.45
11-15-2016, 03:02 PM
I understand why IDPA would not allow shoulder or small of back holsters, but I cannot get why appendix carry is still out. Among the younger/thinner crowd there is a very high percentage of guys who carry this way. If IDPA is supposed to be more "real world" they should allow this. It seems that from a marketing and participation point of view this would help grow the sport. Being able to shoot without the goofy vest would be a major plus right off the bat.

Luke
11-15-2016, 03:07 PM
^^ I was told by my local IDPA MD because "under pressure you will shoot yourself". Told him I competed in uspsa from concealed appendix for a few months and managed to live, and if his game wouldn't allow me to carry the way I do everyday then that was fine.

Such a dumb rule, but generally the suckier shooters will be found at idpa matches so maybe they might shoot themselves.

Peally
11-15-2016, 03:18 PM
IDPA was originally made to get away from the "gamer" USPSA game. Unfortunately it turns out people are realizing with divisions like Production it's just fine for what skills are actually possible to test and measure, tactical shooting or not.

MGW
11-15-2016, 03:32 PM
Fault lines and cover calls combined make my head hurt. I also don't understand making required retention reloads part of the game. If you want me to reload more set the stage up so I have to. Leave the penalty in there for loaded magazines on the ground. I'm okay with that. Just don't tell me I have to remove a magazine with rounds in it and replace it with another magazine while holding onto the original magazine. I promise, we are all more "tactically" tactical if we don't Tim.

Zincwarrior
11-15-2016, 03:58 PM
Such a dumb rule, but generally the suckier shooters will be found at idpa matches

Do you ever get the feeling someone is talking about you...:)

"Sorry Zinc but the blind guy still beat you, despite having the seizure mid stage."

Peally
11-15-2016, 04:00 PM
Fault lines and cover calls combined make my head hurt. I also don't understand making required retention reloads part of the game. If you want me to reload more set the stage up so I have to. Leave the penalty in there for loaded magazines on the ground. I'm okay with that. Just don't tell me I have to remove a magazine with rounds in it and replace it with another magazine while holding onto the original magazine. I promise, we are all more "tactically" tactical if we don't Tim.

Remember, you still need to save the magazine from the gun if there's a round in the chamber, empty magazine or not.

Wonder if they changed that.

jlw
11-15-2016, 04:35 PM
With the different classifier and new scoring rules, they need to wipe the classification database of everything below master, or they need to let whatever people shoot on the new classifier be prevailing even if it means people go down in classification. That's not a commentary on the difficulty level of the new classifier; just that it is different.

John Hearne
11-15-2016, 04:41 PM
Just did a quick browse. I'm really wondering about this one:
"6.9.2 Blind stages are not allowed in IDPA, additionally, moveable non-threat indicators are not allowed."

Really? That seems profoundly stupid for all matches regardless of level. Any idea how long has this been the case?

Peally
11-15-2016, 05:11 PM
With the different classifier and new scoring rules, they need to wipe the classification database of everything below master, or they need to let whatever people shoot on the new classifier be prevailing even if it means people go down in classification. That's not a commentary on the difficulty level of the new classifier; just that it is different.

Master was already fairly easy to get, I'm a little perplexed that they made it even easier. IDPA desperately needs something above master that isn't that useless DM class.

Zincwarrior
11-15-2016, 05:16 PM
Master was already fairly easy to get, I'm a little perplexed that they made it even easier.

Now you're just trying to make feel bad aren't you.

Edwin
11-15-2016, 05:36 PM
Now you're just trying to make feel bad aren't you.

Sadly, he's not wrong. IDPA is too easy.

BN
11-15-2016, 05:38 PM
Master was already fairly easy to get, I'm a little perplexed that they made it even easier. IDPA desperately needs something above master that isn't that useless DM class.

I don't see the new classifier as being easier. I see it as being much harder. I set it up here at home and ran it 3 times today with different guns. This is Bulls eye shooting now. No combat shooting about it. The points down will kill you. I thought I was a 5 Gun Master. It turns out that I am a SS with the new classifier. I shot it again, being much more deliberate and barely squeaked out an EX score.

I am going to replace the combat sights on my pistol with target sights. I might switch from my beloved Glocks to something with more of a target trigger.

I had thought about going for my last Master classification in CCP. Forget about it.

This one second scoring is going to completely change the IDPA game.

Sal Picante
11-15-2016, 05:45 PM
Just did a quick browse. I'm really wondering about this one:
"6.9.2 Blind stages are not allowed in IDPA, additionally, moveable non-threat indicators are not allowed."

Really? That seems profoundly stupid for all matches regardless of level. Any idea how long has this been the case?

It has been that way for 10 years, thanks to Ben Stoeger. The trolling on the thread is epic: http://www.wisconsinshooters.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=484&start=0

Peally
11-15-2016, 06:04 PM
Now you're just trying to make feel bad aren't you.

I'm not trying to bust your ass at all, it's just widely known that Master in IDPA is roughly equivalent to the high half of B class. IDPA M basically means nothing, it doesn't accurately indicate anything at all about someone's level of progression since it's so incredibly vague. It honestly needs to be split into two or three classifications.

Peally
11-15-2016, 06:06 PM
I don't see the new classifier as being easier. I see it as being much harder. I set it up here at home and ran it 3 times today with different guns. This is Bulls eye shooting now. No combat shooting about it. The points down will kill you. I thought I was a 5 Gun Master. It turns out that I am a SS with the new classifier. I shot it again, being much more deliberate and barely squeaked out an EX score.

I am going to replace the combat sights on my pistol with target sights. I might switch from my beloved Glocks to something with more of a target trigger.

I had thought about going for my last Master classification in CCP. Forget about it.

This one second scoring is going to completely change the IDPA game.

Interesting input. A buddy of mine that's a solid high SS in CDP tried it out and blasted out a master time (and ended up expert after points down). With no real shooting at distance it now seems to be all about blasting close up targets.

I'd try it out but I'm lazy and uninterested in burning an afternoon on it. Maybe some others here will try it instead ;)

jlw
11-15-2016, 06:12 PM
I don't see the new classifier as being easier. I see it as being much harder. I set it up here at home and ran it 3 times today with different guns. This is Bulls eye shooting now. No combat shooting about it. The points down will kill you. I thought I was a 5 Gun Master. It turns out that I am a SS with the new classifier. I shot it again, being much more deliberate and barely squeaked out an EX score.

I am going to replace the combat sights on my pistol with target sights. I might switch from my beloved Glocks to something with more of a target trigger.

I had thought about going for my last Master classification in CCP. Forget about it.

This one second scoring is going to completely change the IDPA game.

Had you previously made MA via the classifier or match bumps?

BN
11-15-2016, 06:42 PM
Had you previously made MA via the classifier or match bumps?

My first Master classification was when I won Exp SSP at the Nationals in about 2000. I got Master ESP by shooting the classifier soon afterwards.The rest were by shooting the classifier. It has taken 15 years to get all but CCP because I wasn't shooting the divisions often. As recently as Oct 13 this year I shot a Master CCP score in practice. This spring I shot a Master score in BUG at a match to get that classification official.

The one second per point is huge. I dropped a head shot on my first run by over prepping the trigger. That was 5 seconds added to my score. This is not self defense shooting. It is target shooting. You must get the minus zero area or you are screwed.

Over the last year, I have shot the old classifier several times in practice. My scores have always been from high EXP to lower Master.

I think that with some practice on these stages I can improve my scores. This is going to kill the inaccurate shooters.

jlw
11-15-2016, 07:56 PM
My first Master classification was when I won Exp SSP at the Nationals in about 2000. I got Master ESP by shooting the classifier soon afterwards.The rest were by shooting the classifier. It has taken 15 years to get all but CCP because I wasn't shooting the divisions often. As recently as Oct 13 this year I shot a Master CCP score in practice. This spring I shot a Master score in BUG at a match to get that classification official.

The one second per point is huge. I dropped a head shot on my first run by over prepping the trigger. That was 5 seconds added to my score. This is not self defense shooting. It is target shooting. You must get the minus zero area or you are screwed.

Over the last year, I have shot the old classifier several times in practice. My scores have always been from high EXP to lower Master.

I think that with some practice on these stages I can improve my scores. This is going to kill the inaccurate shooters.


Stage 3 always got me. I haven't classified since 2013 though; prior to my jumping on the open enrollment training carousel.

jetfire
11-15-2016, 08:15 PM
Stage 3 always got me. I haven't classified since 2013 though; prior to my jumping on the open enrollment training carousel.

From shooting the classifier over and over and over and over and over again for a project on making 5-Gun master, just looking at this new classifier, it is much, much easier as a shooting test. Changing the points down to -1 doesn't actually make that big a difference, because if you wanted to wreck shop on the OG classifier you needed to shoot it relatively clean anyway. Now the margin for error is a little bit smaller, but they've also tremendously reduced the amount of shooting that you do at 20 yards, which is what used to cause people the most problems anyway.

Now I'm saying this not having actually shot the new classifier (and not really having any desire to), but a cursory examination makes this look a lot easier to me.

Luke
11-15-2016, 08:20 PM
I've never shot either, but I really want too.

Randy Harris
11-15-2016, 09:11 PM
This is going to kill the inaccurate shooters.

um..............Isn't that kind of the point?

The better someone can shoot, the better they can shoot....period. Or as Hearne says "Shooting is largely a binary exercise...you can either do it or you can't". Does someone need to be able to shoot a 20 yard 5 second FAST drill or shoot 126 at Rogers to win the "TYPICAL" civilian world pistol fight? No....of course not ....but if they can, then all the other stuff gets a whole lot less stressful.....and if they are shooting a 20 at Rogers or a 20 second fast drill with misses on the head then winning for them (in either a match or a gunfight) is probably more happenstance than anything they did to change the outcome.....

Will this new scoring system make it more difficult for new shooters to do well at first? Yes , but don't most of the "IDPA haters" complain that the game is too easy as it is now? I guess I'm just of the opinion that as long as it is fairly and equitably administered then pick some rules and stick with them. If they want to make each point 10 seconds down that is fine as long as everyone is playing by the same rules. What has been an issue at some big matches has been whether the rules are applied equally to everyone..... and THAT is a bigger issue than whether foot faults are used or not.

Peally
11-15-2016, 09:16 PM
What it's really going to do is absofuckolutely crush newer shooter scores.

Luke
11-15-2016, 09:18 PM
The guys winning will continue to win, the other hosers will fall farther behind.

jlw
11-15-2016, 09:37 PM
From shooting the classifier over and over and over and over and over again for a project on making 5-Gun master, just looking at this new classifier, it is much, much easier as a shooting test. Changing the points down to -1 doesn't actually make that big a difference, because if you wanted to wreck shop on the OG classifier you needed to shoot it relatively clean anyway. Now the margin for error is a little bit smaller, but they've also tremendously reduced the amount of shooting that you do at 20 yards, which is what used to cause people the most problems anyway.

Now I'm saying this not having actually shot the new classifier (and not really having any desire to), but a cursory examination makes this look a lot easier to me.

I used your guide of what you needed to score on each stage to get there. I would be there your stated times for 1 & 2 and then lose it on 3. I had a few 102.xx times. This was when the SSP MA time was a 98.

Again, that was when all of my training was public sector LE courses. I didn't do my first open enrollment class until 2014.

DAB
11-15-2016, 09:54 PM
I agree. I think my chances for moving up have improved with this new course of fire. Only 6 shots at 20 yards. Plan to set it up and try it next week.

HopetonBrown
11-15-2016, 10:28 PM
Vid of new IDPA classifier. It's on Facebook but you need not be a member or log in to view.

https://www.facebook.com/readyaimrowdy/videos/651919061655116/?autoplay_reason=user_settings&video_container_type=0&video_creator_product_type=2&app_id=2392950137&live_video_guests=0

That Guy
11-16-2016, 08:14 AM
Just don't tell me I have to remove a magazine with rounds in it and replace it with another magazine while holding onto the original magazine.

While I admit that I haven't read through older than the 2005 rule books, I am not aware of any rule in IDPA that would force you to do that. In the old, 2005 rules, tactical reload and reload with retention were clearly said to be interchangeable. The later rules changed the wording to make this even more clear.



The one second per point is huge. I dropped a head shot on my first run by over prepping the trigger. That was 5 seconds added to my score. This is not self defense shooting. It is target shooting. You must get the minus zero area or you are screwed.


In your opinion, what sort of target area would be realistic when trying to simulate a human body, and the area you need to get hits on in order to reliably stop a threat? How many clean misses are acceptable in a defensive shooting?

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

BN
11-16-2016, 09:31 AM
In your opinion, what sort of target area would be realistic when trying to simulate a human body, and the area you need to get hits on in order to reliably stop a threat? How many clean misses are acceptable in a defensive shooting?

Misses are unacceptable in a self defense shooting.

The IDPA and USPSA targets are OK as far as the scoring areas. I would think a minus one that is 1/2 inch outside the minus zero on an IDPA target is just about as good as a minus zero that just nicks the line. In the game that additional second added to your score makes a huge difference.

edit to add: I'm going to give the classifier another try today. Lots of people are saying it is easy. Maybe I just suck. ;)

jlw
11-16-2016, 09:43 AM
I'll say this about the scoring rule:

I'd go to a cop class and be at the top of the class, and I shot high scores on the qualification course. I thought I was good. Then I went to my first match and got smoked by the "printer repair man", and I realized there is a different standard for good. I shot matches for a couple of years, and I would typically be near the top of a match for accuracy, but my times would be slower. I absolutely hate dropping points. Eventually, I started pushing harder and giving up a few points for the sake of better overall times. Where I previously rarely had hits on on non-threats, a few started to creep in here and there, but it was okay because I was going faster...

That's when I quit shooting IDPA. I started it to improve, and while I did see a marked improvement, I also started to see some bad stuff starting to work its way into my shooting for the sake of being faster. So, that, combined with allowing the politics of the sport to interfere with my hobby, I let it go.

The new scoring rule actually has me interested again.

Some of the guys who could beat me in IDPA couldn't get within 10-20 seconds of me in GSSF. I'm curious to see how a demand for accurate shooting will change things.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-16-2016, 11:13 AM
About appendix carry - I see very competent P-F members shoot from appendix in some venues. I do have a slight bit of concern for beginners who might try it based on reading about it as the cool thing. Having almost catching a 45 ACP in my foot when scoring keeping as a guy holstered his gun - BOOM, it's just a concern. I might check out someone who wants to. I've also seen some horrifying newbie Serpa draw attempts.

Do folks carry weapons mounted lights in appendix? The reason I ask is we once had a gaggle of newbies lead by a self-proclamined guru (all with Uncle Mike's holsters). One gentleman had a laser, light combo which fell off on the draw, hit the ground and the laser and strobe activated like a Disco. It might have been fun to see that fall off into his shorts.

About the rule changes - yawn. I shoot for fun and some gun handling practice. There are two many stupid gun classifications aimed at being a competitor and not really about real world utility (Note - I know it's not real world, blah, blah). The mag limit to 10 is for the poor souls in CA, NY, etc. It does give you some more reload practice. More points for misses - good for accurate but slower me.

Peally
11-16-2016, 11:34 AM
I'll say this about the scoring rule:

I'd go to a cop class and be at the top of the class, and I shot high scores on the qualification course. I thought I was good. Then I went to my first match and got smoked by the "printer repair man", and I realized there is a different standard for good. I shot matches for a couple of years, and I would typically be near the top of a match for accuracy, but my times would be slower. I absolutely hate dropping points. Eventually, I started pushing harder and giving up a few points for the sake of better overall times. Where I previously rarely had hits on on non-threats, a few started to creep in here and there, but it was okay because I was going faster...


Go shoot USPSA with your duty gear. Assuming it's not all rookies there, if you hit a no-shoot, basically you lose :)

Slalom.45
11-16-2016, 12:24 PM
^^ I was told by my local IDPA MD because "under pressure you will shoot yourself". Told him I competed in uspsa from concealed appendix for a few months and managed to live, and if his game wouldn't allow me to carry the way I do everyday then that was fine.

Such a dumb rule, but generally the suckier shooters will be found at idpa matches so maybe they might shoot themselves.

Can you "legally" shoot USPSA from appendix? If so I'd be happy to shoot production from appendix. I shoot IDPA occasionally with a club in non sanctioned matches and they let me shoot appendix which I really appreciate.

And yes, people carry appendix with optics. I don't, but I have run into a number that do.

jetfire
11-16-2016, 12:32 PM
Can you "legally" shoot USPSA from appendix? If so I'd be happy to shoot production from appendix. I shoot IDPA occasionally with a club in non sanctioned matches and they let me shoot appendix which I really appreciate.

And yes, people carry appendix with optics. I don't, but I have run into a number that do.

Not production. The holster position required by appendix automatically puts you in either Limited, Limited-10, or Open.

jlw
11-16-2016, 02:36 PM
Go shoot USPSA with your duty gear. Assuming it's not all rookies there, if you hit a no-shoot, basically you lose :)


I've never even been on a range at the same time as a USPSA match was taking place. Hats off to those who do it well, but those courses of fire are so long that I would have to stop halfway through and ask to have the course description read to me again.

Peally
11-16-2016, 02:42 PM
That's one of the benefits. USPSA course descriptions are "don't shoot yourself" :D

Wobblie
11-16-2016, 02:52 PM
The guys winning will continue to win, the other hosers will fall farther behind.

True for life in general..sigh.

Mr_White
11-16-2016, 03:08 PM
Hey, anyone who knows more about reading the IDPA rules than I do - for the new classifier, on Stage 3 String 2, is it correct that the shooter can reload the empty gun on the move to the second set of barrels, because all the targets were already engaged earlier in the same string? It seems like this is covered under 3.6.2, but I was curious if anyone interpreted that differently.

jlw
11-16-2016, 03:26 PM
Hey, anyone who knows more about reading the IDPA rules than I do - for the new classifier, on Stage 3 String 2, is it correct that the shooter can reload the empty gun on the move to the second set of barrels, because all the targets were already engaged earlier in the same string? It seems like this is covered under 3.6.2, but I was curious if anyone interpreted that differently.

I'm pretty sure it requires the reload behind cover prior to leaving the cover.

DAB
11-16-2016, 03:41 PM
I'm pretty sure it requires the reload behind cover prior to leaving the cover.

yup.

Mr_White
11-16-2016, 03:47 PM
I'm pretty sure it requires the reload behind cover prior to leaving the cover.


yup.

That's what I would have thought based on what I know generally about IDPA, but it seems like the rule reads otherwise when combined with the description of the string - or maybe they mean you can be moving, but only if behind cover the whole time? Confusing!


3.6.2 In stages with cover or concealment, shooters may reload standing still or on the move anytime as long as they
are not exposed to unengaged targets during the reload.


9.9.8.2 String 2 (12 shots): Load exactly 6 rounds total in the firearm at P5. Draw and fire 2 shots at each target using
cover from inside of the barrels, re-load from slide-lock move to the opposite barrels and fire 2 shots at each
target using cover from inside the barrels. Shooter may not shoot around outside of barrels without incurring a
penalty Per 5.1.

DAB
11-16-2016, 03:55 PM
"re-load from slide-lock move"

pretty clear.

on some stages with large sections of cover, you can move toward your next firing point and reload on the move and stay out of view of targets. a barrel isn't that wide.

Mr_White
11-16-2016, 03:59 PM
"re-load from slide-lock move"

pretty clear.

on some stages with large sections of cover, you can move toward your next firing point and reload on the move and stay out of view of targets. a barrel isn't that wide.

I don't at all doubt that you are correct about IDPA's intention, but I think that sentence of theirs is far from clear, myself. They should at least put a comma after 'slide-lock' and should probably add the word 'then'. IMHO anyway.

Thanks for your input clarifying!

Jim Watson
11-16-2016, 05:29 PM
Send it in.
As one cynic posted, the substantive changes like one second scoring and PCC are likely locked in and you will not change their minds.
But editorial corrections for clarity will, or should be welcome.

BN
11-16-2016, 06:35 PM
Hey, anyone who knows more about reading the IDPA rules than I do - for the new classifier, on Stage 3 String 2, is it correct that the shooter can reload the empty gun on the move to the second set of barrels, because all the targets were already engaged earlier in the same string? It seems like this is covered under 3.6.2, but I was curious if anyone interpreted that differently.

Somebody on another board said that you can only move if targets have been engaged with the required number of rounds and you still owe each target 2 more. I did the reload then move when I was shooting it yesterday and today.

Jim Watson
11-16-2016, 07:25 PM
Under strict reading of the rules, you will have engaged the targets all you are allowed to from 20 yards and should be allowed to reload on the way to 15 yards.
But the Classifier is a Horse of a Different Color and they may not run it under match rules.
We will just have to wait and see how it is administered.

JSGlock34
11-16-2016, 08:25 PM
No carry optics?

Jim Watson
11-16-2016, 10:08 PM
Optics would have been better than carbines.
Concealable like the rule book says, doncha know.

Zincwarrior
11-17-2016, 06:53 AM
Optics would have been better than carbines.
Concealable like the rule book says, doncha know.

Wilson doesn't sell optics.

BN
11-17-2016, 08:56 AM
I ran the classifier again 3 times yesterday. I could do all right if I could keep more of my shots in the down zero. :( My best run was still 10 seconds away from a Master score. Raw times would have made it but those one seconds per point add up quickly.

Maybe this is someone telling me I need to work on my accuracy. ;)

Lots of butt hurt on the internet because they changed the sizes on the CCP and BUG boxes. My G-19 and G-26 still make it.

Jim Watson
11-17-2016, 09:36 AM
Wilson doesn't sell optics.

Wilson sells a lot of flange barreled .45s but I can't shoot one in CDP. Not everything is advertising.

Zincwarrior
11-18-2016, 07:21 AM
Wilson sells a lot of flange barreled .45s but I can't shoot one in CDP. Not everything is advertising.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. However, that doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.

For the slow like myself, will these be effective for the next classification cycle?

cclaxton
11-18-2016, 07:51 AM
Send it in.
As one cynic posted, the substantive changes like one second scoring and PCC are likely locked in and you will not change their minds.
But editorial corrections for clarity will, or should be welcome.
I am not convinced that PCC is locked in.There are a lot of other considerations for PCC to be clearly operated that are not in the rulebook. For instance: Defining support or strong hand shooting in PCC (Does that mean support side shoulder or actually using your support hand or what?...I think it should mean support side shoulder, but that is not spelled out.) Can a shooter hold the gun without both hands, using only the grip? I did get an answer back from HQ that a sling would be allowed. But, can a person start with the PCC slung, and in what position? Starting positions are not a big deal...that can be managed. We already do all kinds of stages where you start with the gun out. The purpose of IDPA can easily be modified to add "...and home defense." I am starting to think the PCC thing may be a trial balloon...to see how the membership would take to it.
Cody

cclaxton
11-18-2016, 08:21 AM
IDPA M basically means nothing...
That is quite an insult to the many people who have put in thousands of hours of work to make master. There is no perfect system to grade people. There are some short procedures that can be measured to show how fast you are, but in matches with multiple courses of fire, it is rare to find any master shooter who shoots it perfectly. Just ask anyone who won a match if they think it was perfect...they will tell you all the things they need to improve.

Making Master in IDPA does mean a person put in thousands of hours, ammo, mental training, and more to make it....it definitely means SOMETHING. And, many USPSA masters continue to shoot IDPA...why would they bother if it was below them?

If your goal is to try and grade every master shooter, then shoot USPSA or the Bianchi and leave IDPA alone.
Cody

Peally
11-18-2016, 09:29 AM
I'm an SSP Master, and I can confirm it was quite easy compared to making A class. You and many others are taking that as an insult, which isn't the point or intention. The point is it's a massive umbrella classification and doesn't tell you a damn thing about how skilled a shooter is other than they made the minimum to get in. Considering the skill gap between me and Vogel, there needs to be something in between there to make it a useful class. Right now all it means is your el pres is somewhere between 8 seconds and 3.5. This is especially critical now that they've potentially made the IDPA classifier even easier with the rule changes.

Look at the current classifications for what they are. You have a whole bunch of them bunched up on the lower end of the skill tree (which is fine), and then nothing for the folks that have trained above that level. If you want to make a parallel to USPSA, IDPA's current class system is D, C, B, SuperGMWorldWinner (if you want to count the DM class, which I don't consider a traditional class since you can't classify into it).

jlw
11-18-2016, 09:46 AM
In the grand scheme of things, classifications are just a way to tell someone that they were third among the bottom 10% instead of 52nd.


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Mitch
11-18-2016, 09:55 AM
I actually like the scoring changes. I don't really care about PCC or the classifier. This does make me a little more inclined to shoot IDPA. I wish they would budge on AIWB though.


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Peally
11-18-2016, 09:58 AM
I wouldn't know, even on a really terrible day at least I'm not in the bottom 10% of a match :D

In a big match you're already shooting they don't really matter. Pre-match they determine what kind of competition you're going to have (if you're a GM, you want to compete against other GMs obviously). In training they're an excellent indicator of where you stand in the grand scheme of things, (ideally) providing solid goals backed up with a tested classifier system you can try as a benchmarking tool.

DAB
11-18-2016, 10:09 AM
i'd hope they give the new classifier a year to shake out, and then if there are "too many" masters, either adjust the cut offs, or create a "grand master", say you have to shoot the classifier in under 40 seconds. i once saw a video of Dave Sevigny shoot the classifier in under 60 seconds.

cclaxton
11-18-2016, 11:12 AM
I'm an SSP Master, and I can confirm it was quite easy compared to making A class. You and many others are taking that as an insult, which isn't the point or intention. The point is it's a massive umbrella classification and doesn't tell you a damn thing about how skilled a shooter is other than they made the minimum to get in. Considering the skill gap between me and Vogel, there needs to be something in between there to make it a useful class. Right now all it means is your el pres is somewhere between 8 seconds and 3.5. This is especially critical now that they've potentially made the IDPA classifier even easier with the rule changes.
Look at the current classifications for what they are. You have a whole bunch of them bunched up on the lower end of the skill tree (which is fine), and then nothing for the folks that have trained above that level. If you want to make a parallel to USPSA, IDPA's current class system is D, C, B, SuperGMWorldWinner (if you want to count the DM class, which I don't consider a traditional class since you can't classify into it).
You said IDPA Master means "nothing". IDPA is a sport for the every day concealed carrier to improve their gun handling skills and develop some basic tactics and experience shooting under pressure, sometimes in uncomfortable or unnatural shooting positions and with SHO/WHO and avoiding nonthreats. That is a good thing for our gun carrying community. Competition is a way to add pressure and learn safety and improve guns kills. Most IDPA shooters are not interested in becoming a GM. They are more interested in developing the confidence in their gun handling. Most non-competitive shooters have horrible gun handling skills, and many police officers as well. The more people we get to develop competency in gun handling, the more we will have people on the streets who carry that are safer and better able to handle a situation. I am not saying IDPA is all that is needed to learn good self-defense tactics, but it is better than not doing any. But GM still shoot IDPA, so even they like the unique challenges that IDPA provides that makes it different than USPSA or 3Gun. I shoot all three, and I find value in all of them. We should not, therefore, turn IDPA into just another playground for USPSA Masters and Grand Masters and push the sport into just a different form of USPSA. We should continue to be a sport for the average Joe/Jane and retain the unique concealed carry and home safety character.
Cody

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 11:36 AM
This whole discussion is just begging for The Chart!

https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7450/12122402613_ec37136846_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/jtdtXB)Skills_zps102fc8f7_03 (https://flic.kr/p/jtdtXB) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

Peally
11-18-2016, 12:05 PM
You said IDPA Master means "nothing". IDPA is a sport for the every day concealed carrier to improve their gun handling skills and develop some basic tactics and experience shooting under pressure, sometimes in uncomfortable or unnatural shooting positions and with SHO/WHO and avoiding nonthreats. That is a good thing for our gun carrying community. Competition is a way to add pressure and learn safety and improve guns kills. Most IDPA shooters are not interested in becoming a GM. They are more interested in developing the confidence in their gun handling. Most non-competitive shooters have horrible gun handling skills, and many police officers as well. The more people we get to develop competency in gun handling, the more we will have people on the streets who carry that are safer and better able to handle a situation. I am not saying IDPA is all that is needed to learn good self-defense tactics, but it is better than not doing any. But GM still shoot IDPA, so even they like the unique challenges that IDPA provides that makes it different than USPSA or 3Gun. I shoot all three, and I find value in all of them. We should not, therefore, turn IDPA into just another playground for USPSA Masters and Grand Masters and push the sport into just a different form of USPSA. We should continue to be a sport for the average Joe/Jane and retain the unique concealed carry and home safety character.
Cody

11743


Nothing I'm saying is really registering here is it? It doesn't mean anything from a "what level is this shooter at" statistical perspective. Congrats to whoever is working their ass off towards their personal and life goals but it means jack all for the point I'm making.

DAB
11-18-2016, 12:06 PM
Oh no! Not the Chart!!!!

cclaxton
11-18-2016, 12:17 PM
Nothing I'm saying is really registering here is it? It doesn't mean anything from a "what level is this shooter at" statistical perspective. Congrats to whoever is working their ass off towards their personal and life goals but it means jack all for the point I'm making.
Actually, it is registering... that is why we are having a problem. I wouldn't have had a problem with what you said if you didn't make the statement that "IDPA M means nothing." Even in Mr. White's chart it measures up somewhere in the chart even if you or I don't agree whether it is right. Words matter.
Cody

jetfire
11-18-2016, 12:22 PM
I'm an SSP Master, and I can confirm it was quite easy compared to making A class.

As an IDPA Master and a USPSA A class shooter, I concur with this assessment. And I made both around the same time in my career with similar equipment, and A-class was a lot harder to do.

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 12:22 PM
The Chart originally was created by Midwest Marksman. People on PF discussed it a lot and I changed it to the version I posted based on that community discussion. Lots of rough edges and things that might not always add up in there, but it is the best illustration of relative skill as measured by different tests, drills, sports, disciplines, etc. that I personally have seen.

Peally
11-18-2016, 12:23 PM
Actually, it is registering... that is why we are having a problem. I wouldn't have had a problem with what you said if you didn't make the statement that "IDPA M means nothing." Even in Mr. White's chart it measures up somewhere in the chart even if you or I don't agree whether it is right. Words matter.
Cody

And that precludes discussing a potential improvement?

Harden the fuck up.

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 12:24 PM
As an IDPA Master and a USPSA A class shooter, I concur with this assessment. And I made both around the same time in my career with similar equipment, and A-class was a lot harder to do.


My initial classification in USPSA was B (barely made B - like 62% or something), and at that time I could routinely shoot at the Master level on the IDPA Classifier in a practice setting. So, about the same as you guys are saying.

orionz06
11-18-2016, 12:26 PM
Shame that every year I hope to be able to shoot my defensive pistol in the "defensive" game and yet they wanna add some fuckery with a PCC.


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Mr_White
11-18-2016, 12:30 PM
shame that every year i hope to be able to shoot my defensive pistol in the "defensive" game and yet they wanna add some fuckery with a pcc.


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that's because you carry your gun improperly you are a bad timmy

Luke
11-18-2016, 12:32 PM
Does this mean I can EDC a PCC?

orionz06
11-18-2016, 12:35 PM
Does this mean I can EDC a PCC?

Not under normal clothes. Maybe you could wear your competition gear in the streets?


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Mitch
11-18-2016, 12:36 PM
Does this mean I can EDC a PCC?

As long as you don't try to do it AIWB.


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Jim Watson
11-18-2016, 12:58 PM
If you can carry it all day and shoot it WHO.

I saw a good post that should be the last nail in the coffin of PCC.
Not only can it not be concealed or carried comfortably all day, you simply cannot perform a lot of common IDPA activities with a carbine.
SHO, WHO, in or exiting vehicle, box start, etc. Surrender position looks like a Lebanese shooting over a wall.


And what does one do with one's PCC while not shooting?
My pistol is in its holster.
Will the carbine be slung, racked, or what? Empty chamber indicators seem needed.
I don't see it in the rules.
Three Gun manages, IDPA should look at their safety regulations for long guns.

I figure it is a done deal, it will be rammed down us pistol shooters' throats. Like Joyce Count it is a done deal. Unlike Joyce Count, it was sprung as a surprise on the general membership.

I guess we can distort our game so another bunch of trigger timers can tell us what we are doing wrong.

JAD
11-18-2016, 01:04 PM
The Chart originally was created by Midwest Marksman. People on PF discussed it a lot and I changed it to the version I posted based on that community discussion. Lots of rough edges and things that might not always add up in there, but it is the best illustration of relative skill as measured by different tests, drills, sports, disciplines, etc. that I personally have seen.

I recall a chart like this one (but IMO better looking) being created by John Hearne and discussed here: https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-11067.html

jetfire
11-18-2016, 01:12 PM
My initial classification in USPSA was B (barely made B - like 62% or something), and at that time I could routinely shoot at the Master level on the IDPA Classifier in a practice setting. So, about the same as you guys are saying.

Yeah, around the same time I made IDPA Master I was shooting at Single Stack B class level, then after some more practice I made A-class. After making A I was also shooting master classifieds 10-15 faster than the pace required.

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 01:37 PM
I recall a chart like this one (but IMO better looking) being created by John Hearne and discussed here: https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-11067.html

This one?

https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7377/12121755283_53538a1e0d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/jtaawK)overlearning_continuim_zps25aca663_02 (https://flic.kr/p/jtaawK) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

Peally
11-18-2016, 01:39 PM
Interesting. I can do a 2 second bill drill but I struggle to nail anything like an M/GM classifier.

cclaxton
11-18-2016, 01:41 PM
If you can carry it all day and shoot it WHO.

I saw a good post that should be the last nail in the coffin of PCC.
Not only can it not be concealed or carried comfortably all day, you simply cannot perform a lot of common IDPA activities with a carbine.
SHO, WHO, in or exiting vehicle, box start, etc. Surrender position looks like a Lebanese shooting over a wall.


And what does one do with one's PCC while not shooting?
My pistol is in its holster.
Will the carbine be slung, racked, or what? Empty chamber indicators seem needed.
I don't see it in the rules.
Three Gun manages, IDPA should look at their safety regulations for long guns.

I figure it is a done deal, it will be rammed down us pistol shooters' throats. Like Joyce Count it is a done deal. Unlike Joyce Count, it was sprung as a surprise on the general membership.

I guess we can distort our game so another bunch of trigger timers can tell us what we are doing wrong.
Please submit your comments to the comments@idpa.com with your valid IDPA Number in the subject line.
I have already received confirmation from HQ that slings will be allowed.
IDPA has been supporting non-concealed start conditions for many years: Nightstand, while seated in a box, in a bag, in a tent, in a toolbox, etc, etc. THese are home/work related self defense. The PCC simply extended that. PCC is not intended to be concealed.
Cody

Mitch
11-18-2016, 01:55 PM
What if I don't have an IDPA number because of some of the already existing rules?


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cclaxton
11-18-2016, 01:59 PM
What if I don't have an IDPA number because of some of the already existing rules?
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Then you need to decide if it is worth the $40 to submit your comments.
Worse case is your $40 allows you to shoot under the new IDPA rules and try them out.
Cody

Zincwarrior
11-18-2016, 02:03 PM
This thread appears to have derailed a bit. Maybe we should move away from the discussion of whether obtaining a M is hard vs. USPSA back to the actual rules changes.

Back to the OP. Besides reloads, the classifier items, pistol carbines, and the point = second change, anything else discovered?

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 02:05 PM
Then you need to decide if it is worth the $40 to submit your comments.

How did that work out the last time?

Some of the paid membership: "We'd like to be able to shoot AIWB in IDPA, so we can shoot our carry gear. Sometimes we do this at the club level for no score, but we can't at big matches."

IDPA: "AIWB is against the rules, and not only is it staying that way, we are going to make sure it doesn't happen at the club level either."

$40 to submit comments which are likely to be spitefully ignored? Lolololololololololololololol!

orionz06
11-18-2016, 02:06 PM
Then you need to decide if it is worth the $40 to submit your comments.
Worse case is your $40 allows you to shoot under the new IDPA rules and try them out.
Cody

$40 to have his comments deleted is a bit much, dontcha think?


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cclaxton
11-18-2016, 02:21 PM
$40 to have his comments deleted is a bit much, dontcha think?
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I know for a fact that every comment from a active member will be read and reviewed and the count of NO/YES/Maybe on the changes being proposed.
There is no guarantee that the most popular recommendations will be adopted, but there is a better chance it will. The rules committee may have their reasons why they need to keep a rule in place. I will encourage them to give good reasons why.
$40 doesn't buy anyone a veto or a feature addition.
But it does give you the ability to shoot IDPA for a year and try out the new rules.
Cody

orionz06
11-18-2016, 02:25 PM
Lol. Does anyone who reads the comments even carry a gun in public?


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Peally
11-18-2016, 02:27 PM
It's a lot cheaper to shoot an outlaw match/one that doesn't care about membership numbers if one is so inclined, at least around here. Better to sample something without feeding the beast your ammo money.

Luke
11-18-2016, 02:43 PM
Since when do you have to be a member to shoot idpgay

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 02:49 PM
It's a lot cheaper to shoot an outlaw match/one that doesn't care about membership numbers if one is so inclined, at least around here. Better to sample something without feeding the beast your ammo money.

Here's what I could do with $40 that would be cheaper and more productive - I go to the mini mart down the street, buy two forties of Old E or St. Ides, drink one, give the other to someone near the mini mart in exchange for reading and then promptly ignoring my ideas about how to make IDPA better, then I would have about $34 left and could buy a really awesome tiger mask, an iced-out mini-Uzi pendant, or maybe get some Glamour Shots taken.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Tg9jAI%2BWL._UX679_.jpg

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71LBU4GZ9WL._UY662_.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/98/a3/bb/98a3bbbcecf23971a98c6c7e98dbe298.jpg

orionz06
11-18-2016, 02:50 PM
Since when do you have to be a member to shoot idpgay

You don't, of the 4-5 clubs in my area non-members can shoot without issue.





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Mirolynmonbro
11-18-2016, 02:51 PM
I ran the classifier again 3 times yesterday. I could do all right if I could keep more of my shots in the down zero. :( My best run was still 10 seconds away from a Master score. Raw times would have made it but those one seconds per point add up quickly.

Maybe this is someone telling me I need to work on my accuracy. ;)

Lots of butt hurt on the internet because they changed the sizes on the CCP and BUG boxes. My G-19 and G-26 still make it.

Looks like the 92 Compact makes CCP now but might need the Wilson low profile safety. I wonder if the barrel length was increased because of threaded barrels

Jim Watson
11-18-2016, 02:53 PM
I was shooting 2 outlaw matches a month (along with up to 3 IDPA and occasional IPSC - yes IPSC, not USPSA) until one of them lost its range. The outgoing one had only a few differences, but the other is mutating a lot.

I notice the IPSC shoot which is on an indoor range, nice in the heat of Summer and the cold of Winter, is shaking out the casual shooters. More USPSA shooters getting in trigger time on weeknights.


IDPA rule requires you join after only one match. A rule seldom observed except at one range near here which is running at capacity and uses membership to keep entries to what they can handle.
New version says you may only shoot three matches before classifying.



I know for a fact that every comment from a active member will be read and reviewed and the count of NO/YES/Maybe on the changes being proposed.

Sounds good, Cody. You on a TT?

Zincwarrior
11-18-2016, 03:06 PM
Since when do you have to be a member to shoot idpgay

Depends on the club I would imagine. At our local club we don't have to be a member of either IDPA or USPSA.

JAD
11-18-2016, 03:20 PM
This one?

So it began, I think. It had evolved quite a bit by the time I saw it as part of a course of his in 2015. Anyway, the language and the font is very similar even in your example to the thingee you posted from Midwest Marksman. Who is MM?

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 03:34 PM
So it began, I think. It had evolved quite a bit by the time I saw it as part of a course of his in 2015. Anyway, the language and the font is very similar even in your example to the thingee you posted from Midwest Marksman. Who is MM?

I feel like I remember another one too, maybe the more evolved one you refer to. I like the Midwest Marksman one myself, because it attempts the broadest comparison between a larger number of drills, tests, sports, etc. No idea who Midwest Marksman is - the original was an image someone found somewhere on the internet, and we all ran with it from there.

JAD
11-18-2016, 03:36 PM
I feel like I remember another one too, maybe the more evolved one you refer to. I like the Midwest Marksman one myself, because it attempts the broadest comparison between a larger number of drills, tests, sports, etc. No idea who Midwest Marksman is - the original was an image someone found somewhere on the internet, and we all ran with it from there.
The forum search isn't helping me -- at least using "midwest marksman." can you point to the thread? Don't feel obligated, I'm just curious.

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 03:42 PM
The forum search isn't helping me -- at least using "midwest marksman." can you point to the thread? Don't feel obligated, I'm just curious.

Would if I could JAD - I had those two chart pictures saved/posted on my photo account, so they were close at hand though whatever thread they came from is not. The archived thread you linked is the one I'd have looked for first, though I am pretty sure there were a few others too.

JAD
11-18-2016, 03:48 PM
Would if I could JAD - I had those two chart pictures saved/posted on my photo account, so they were close at hand though whatever thread they came from is not. The archived thread you linked is the one I'd have looked for first, though I am pretty sure there were a few others too.

Got it, thanks for trying.

jetfire
11-18-2016, 03:51 PM
Thanks to this thread, I've figured out my next trolling youtube video.

nycnoob
11-18-2016, 04:01 PM
The Chart originally was created by Midwest Marksman.


I think I found the original on Doodie:
872-uspsa-v-idpa-classification-chart/ (http://www.doodieproject.com/index.php?/topic/872-uspsa-v-idpa-classification-chart/)

I believe this is John Hearns first discussion of a similiar chart:
Input-on-Current-Project (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11067-Input-on-Current-Project)

Edwin
11-18-2016, 04:47 PM
Man, I love IDPA but even I know that IDPA Master is meaningless when a A/B class dude can outgun you in almost every metric.

Mr_White
11-18-2016, 04:49 PM
I believe this is John Hearns first discussion of a similiar chart:
Input-on-Current-Project (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11067-Input-on-Current-Project)

That's the one! The third picture I remember (or an early version of it) is in the first post of the thread. Thanks!

John Hearne
11-18-2016, 10:22 PM
More info here:
http://ballisticradio.com/2016/09/28/automa-what-podcast-season-4-ballistic-radio-episode-178-september-11th-2016/

jlw
11-21-2016, 03:22 PM
Will a M&P45 Midsize still be a good to go for CCP?

Randy Harris
11-21-2016, 04:34 PM
Man, I love IDPA but even I know that IDPA Master is meaningless when a A/B class dude can outgun you in almost every metric.

Maybe....maybe not...and THAT is the heart of the issue. You can get into the Master level room a lot easier in IDPA than IPSC but that doesn't mean ALL IDPA masters are barely B level shooters.

If IDPA were a beach there is a fairly close to shore drop off and then you are swimming in very deep water with the biggest sea monsters in that ocean. Whereas in other disciplines the drop off into the deepest water where the big fish are is not nearly as close to the shoreline. You have to swim farther to get to the deeper end of the IPSC ocean.....

And remember....not ALL IDPA Masters are just barely making it under the Expert to Master level cutoff. Remember before they instituted the DM classification Vogel was still "ONLY" an IDPA Master.....even though he was shooting classifiers 25 seconds faster than most other masters. There is a big difference in the guy who FINALLY shoots the classifier in 89 seconds on a good day when everything goes right and a guy who can roll in and shoot it in 75 on demand. Yet due to IDPA's classification system they are both simply "masters".

jetfire
11-21-2016, 04:39 PM
Maybe....maybe not...and THAT is the heart of the issue. If IDPA were a beach there is a fairly close to shore drop off and then you are in very deep water with the biggest sea monsters. Whereas in other disciplines the drop off into the deepest water where the big fish are is not nearly as close to the shore. You have to swim farther to get to the deeper end of IPSC...

And not ALL IDPA Masters are just barely making the Expert to Master level cutoff. Remember before they instituted the DM classification Vogel was still "ONLY" an IDPA Master.....even though he was shooting classifiers 25 seconds faster than most other masters. There is a big difference in the guy who FINALLY shoots the classifier in 89 seconds on a good day when everything goes right and a guy who can roll in and shoot it in 75 on demand. Yet due to IDPAs classification system they are both simply "masters".

Bob was one of the guys who was automatically promoted to DM when the new classification was created.

Randy Harris
11-21-2016, 05:18 PM
I know...and they bumped Miculek and the other original DMs from Master to DM by the stroke of a pen. THAT is what I'm saying.....because the day before IDPA rolled out the DM classification and crowned him a DM he was still "just " an IDPA Master...... because no matter whether you can shoot the classifier in 90 or in 50 you are in the same classification. That is now until you win a National or World Championship or finish in 3 percentage points of that winner and get match bumped to DM. So Vogel was finishing over a MINUTE ahead of dudes in his same classification (Master) at the IDPA Nationals until they chose to advance him and create the new DM class in 2011 .

A guy who just gets in the door to master with a 88.99 score on the classifier has no business competing against a guy who can shoot it in 65. But to hear some tell it , you'd think ALL IDPA masters are barely shooting an 89 and would be clearly outclassed by a B class IPSC shooter in any shooting endeavor. When reality is that there are SOME IDPA masters who simply have not won a World or National Championship yet (possibly due to the bad luck of having to go through Vogel to get one) that are far and away better than the typical B class (and A class ) IPSC shooter. And some of those IDPA Master guys are also IPSC Ms and GMs.

While we can generalize that the typical IDPA M class shooter is probably not a danger to win the IPSC World they are also not ALL "6 fingered busters that couldn't hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup" either. Yes it is easier to get a Master classification in IDPA...but that doesn't mean that they all suck....it just means it is easier to get yourself into the deep end of the pool to swim with those sharks.

jlw
11-21-2016, 06:00 PM
So, instead of finishing 12th behind Vogel, you get to be the guy that finished 11th among Master class shooters...

BN
11-21-2016, 07:03 PM
Will a M&P45 Midsize still be a good to go for CCP?

The firearm with the largest magazine inserted must fit in the IDPA gun test box
measuring 7 ľ” x 5 3/8” x
1 3/8” (222.3 mm x 136.525 mm x 34mm

It looks like the 45C might make it depending on how tall and thick it is.

jetfire
11-22-2016, 01:41 PM
So, instead of finishing 12th behind Vogel, you get to be the guy that finished 11th among Master class shooters...

I have never understood the heartburn over the IDPA classification system. I mean yeah, the Master pool was pretty deep, but then again so was the GM pool for USPSA. For giggles, I looked at the score from the last USPSA Limited Nationals and counted 15 GMs that only shot 85% of the match winner's score before I got bored. And the "First GM" (Second Place) was Bob.

So no matter what sport you're in, the talent pool at the top end is always going to consist of the dudes who are competitive, the middle of the pack guys, and then the dudes who for whatever reason are at the bottom of the skill tier. After all, someone has to finish last place at the Olympics.

cclaxton
11-22-2016, 03:38 PM
Maybe....maybe not...and THAT is the heart of the issue. You can get into the Master level room a lot easier in IDPA than IPSC but that doesn't mean ALL IDPA masters are barely B level shooters.

If IDPA were a beach there is a fairly close to shore drop off and then you are swimming in very deep water with the biggest sea monsters in that ocean. Whereas in other disciplines the drop off into the deepest water where the big fish are is not nearly as close to the shoreline. You have to swim farther to get to the deeper end of the IPSC ocean.....

And remember....not ALL IDPA Masters are just barely making it under the Expert to Master level cutoff. Remember before they instituted the DM classification Vogel was still "ONLY" an IDPA Master.....even though he was shooting classifiers 25 seconds faster than most other masters. There is a big difference in the guy who FINALLY shoots the classifier in 89 seconds on a good day when everything goes right and a guy who can roll in and shoot it in 75 on demand. Yet due to IDPA's classification system they are both simply "masters".
There are other factors beyond shooting skill alone. The types of stages are different, such as tactical priority, cover, required movement, typically more non-threats. The brain/nervous responses will be different. In IDPA you have to be more careful about the stage rules. In USPSA you don't think about those...or shouldn't. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a great USPSA shooter shoot IDPA and totally blow the stage, and even forget targets. If you want to measure raw pistol handling skills, then USPSA is your game. If you want to measure use of cover, tactical priority, and moving while shooting, then IDPA tests those skills more.
Cody

Luke
11-22-2016, 04:41 PM
have you ever shot uspsa?

ranger
11-22-2016, 05:42 PM
I shot USPSA for a long time as I had time on weekends (since 1986!) and enjoyed it immensely (other than the waiting between stages to shoot). My local range now is IDPA oriented so I started IDPA - my friends are there and its close. I shoot for practice and fun only. Frankly - I struggle at times shooting good IDPA scores because I am out of balance on speed vs accuracy - I shoot too fast and my score suffers accordingly.

Peally
11-22-2016, 05:54 PM
That's the way I started out, quick and inaccurate. Pretty easy to practice that out. Speeding things up is harder IMO.

cclaxton
11-22-2016, 06:35 PM
have you ever shot uspsa?
Not sure who that was for. I just shot Maryland State USPSA Match...and greatly enjoyed it. I am a C-class shooter. I shoot about 6 USPSA club matches a year at Fredericksburg, VA and Thurmont, MD.
Cody

MVS
11-22-2016, 06:51 PM
There are other factors beyond shooting skill alone. The types of stages are different, such as tactical priority, cover, required movement, typically more non-threats. The brain/nervous responses will be different. In IDPA you have to be more careful about the stage rules. In USPSA you don't think about those...or shouldn't. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a great USPSA shooter shoot IDPA and totally blow the stage, and even forget targets. If you want to measure raw pistol handling skills, then USPSA is your game. If you want to measure use of cover, tactical priority, and moving while shooting, then IDPA tests those skills more.
Cody

I think you are greatly exaggerating any perceived benefits of IDPA over USPSA. I am no expert on the matter though. Randy however does know a bit about it. IIRC he had a pretty decent placing at last years World Championships in the Masters SSP class.

cclaxton
11-22-2016, 07:41 PM
I think you are greatly exaggerating any perceived benefits of IDPA over USPSA. I am no expert on the matter though. Randy however does know a bit about it. IIRC he had a pretty decent placing at last years World Championships in the Masters SSP class.
Let me be clear: When it comes to pure shooting skill, USPSA has the advantage. When it comes to use of cover and tactical priority and awkward shooting positions, IDPA has value to offer. That is one reason I see GM's come and shoot it.
But the real value of IDPA is for your average person who has their concealed permit and owns a mostly production pistol and wants to get better while practicing use of cover and priority while on the clock in a competitive environment. There is a great Match Director who says this: "The more people who shoot IDPA regularly, the fewer people on the streets with bad gun handling skills." THAT is why I am a Match Director and an Area Coordinator. I believe there is value in both, and I shoot both.
Cody

cclaxton
11-22-2016, 07:43 PM
I lament the removal of sequence priority and the addition of more restrictive rules for match directors, such as restricting moving non-threats and blind stages. But we still have tactical priority and use of cover and usually more fun props and stages. It's the only sport where I have shot at night through a fire coming out of the engine compartment or through water raining down through a window or with strobes flashing at me at night, or in a shoothouse, or with a heavy bag on top of me, or wrapped around a bicycle on the ground, or....
I like the addition of PCC, although now I have another set of equipment rules to administer...and the pistol rules didn't get easier.
I do wish the gamers would not push IDPA in this direction, but I may be in the minority.
Cody

Glenn E. Meyer
11-22-2016, 07:54 PM
The removal of sequence priority makes no sense to me. What empirical data suggests anything about it as a real world problem or training problem, such that it can't be an option?

The PPC - stupid in regular matches. We run carbine matches where some run their pistol. We don't need a mix in regular IDPA matches unless it is truly becoming just a game (OH, what did I say!).

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 05:28 AM
The PPC - stupid in regular matches. We run carbine matches where some run their pistol. We don't need a mix in regular IDPA matches unless it is truly becoming just a game (OH, what did I say!).
3Gun rules offer no use of cover or priority. IDPA is the only place, other than tactical training, where you can practice those. I think it's a good fit, and popular. I am more concerned about how we run PCC matches, such as SHO and WHO and safety protocols, etc. And, I don't think this has anything to do with Wilson Combat selling PCC's...that was an industry trend across many manufacturers. The one worry I have is that certain States may not allow the PCC Division to operate legally.
Cody

That Guy
11-23-2016, 05:37 AM
3Gun rules offer no use of cover or priority. IDPA is the only place, other than tactical training, where you can practice those.

I'd agree with you if we were talking about the DMG rules - IDPA with a rifle or shotgun is fun and makes you do stuff you might not normally have to even consider in an IPSC match (like how to use cover). But cramming this PCC stuff into the pistol rules seems like a very poor way to go about things.

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 05:59 AM
I'd agree with you if we were talking about the DMG rules - IDPA with a rifle or shotgun is fun and makes you do stuff you might not normally have to even consider in an IPSC match (like how to use cover). But cramming this PCC stuff into the pistol rules seems like a very poor way to go about things.
Why is it okay for USPSA to cram it into their pistol sport and not IDPA?
Cody

orionz06
11-23-2016, 06:30 AM
3Gun rules offer no use of cover or priority. IDPA is the only place, other than tactical training, where you can practice those. I think it's a good fit, and popular. I am more concerned about how we run PCC matches, such as SHO and WHO and safety protocols, etc. And, I don't think this has anything to do with Wilson Combat selling PCC's...that was an industry trend across many manufacturers. The one worry I have is that certain States may not allow the PCC Division to operate legally.
Cody

Except use of snow fences in IDPA as any sort of "training" is a a god damned joke.


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cclaxton
11-23-2016, 06:54 AM
Except use of snow fences in IDPA as any sort of "training" is a a god damned joke.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Orion.
Cody

Zincwarrior
11-23-2016, 07:09 AM
Not sure who that was for. I just shot Maryland State USPSA Match...and greatly enjoyed it. I am a C-class shooter. I shoot about 6 USPSA club matches a year at Fredericksburg, VA and Thurmont, MD.
Cody
Class C shooter. Local matches.

Zincwarrior
11-23-2016, 07:20 AM
I lament the removal of sequence priority and the addition of more restrictive rules for match directors, such as restricting moving non-threats and blind stages. But we still have tactical priority and use of cover and usually more fun props and stages. It's the only sport where I have shot at night through a fire coming out of the engine compartment or through water raining down through a window or with strobes flashing at me at night, or in a shoothouse, or with a heavy bag on top of me, or wrapped around a bicycle on the ground, or....
I like the addition of PCC, although now I have another set of equipment rules to administer...and the pistol rules didn't get easier.
I do wish the gamers would not push IDPA in this direction, but I may be in the minority.
Cody

I hear you. I am not keen on IDPA becoming more like USPSA. There is room for both, and frankly most of the old farts like myself aren't going to put on track shoes to play a shooting game. We like to amble, wear our shoot me first vests, and not spill our coffee while going tac sequencing those nefarious paper bad guys.
Never shot a night shoot with USPSA, but we frequently do with IDPA. Frankly, I don't get the hate the USPSA players have for IDPA. If you don't like it, fine, who cares? If I'm boat fishing I don't complain and make fun of fly fishers.

As for PCC, not a real biggie. In Austin we run pistol range carbine/pistol matches using IDPA rules here, and they work just fine.

That Guy
11-23-2016, 07:26 AM
Why is it okay for USPSA to cram it into their pistol sport and not IDPA?
Cody

I don't know anything about USPSA. But I do know that IPSC pistol rules are about pistols. If you want to look at rifle rules, you need to look at the rifle rulebook. Seems a lot more logical than trying to cram one niche long gun into the pistol rules.

You've already touched on some of the problems. Scenarios, starting positions, one handed shooting... Thinking back on stages I really liked, it seems to me like a lot of them would not be at all possible with a carbine. Do we stop making interesting pistol stages so that they are all carbine compatible?

Equipment is also an issue. I don't know anyone with a pistol caliber carbine with over 10" barrel. I know several guys with carbine conversions for their pistols, but that barrel length rule kills those. Everyone with an IDPA ID that I know of has an AK or an AR. If you want to shoot IDPA with long guns - and I am definitely for that, I loooooove IDPA DMG! - why not renew the DMG rule book? That would be a lot more logical, and in my area at least a lot more popular way to go.

In summary, IDPA with long guns is an excellent idea, but "let's cram one type of long gun into the pistol rules" is a lousy execution of that idea.

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 08:04 AM
I don't know anything about USPSA. But I do know that IPSC pistol rules are about pistols. If you want to look at rifle rules, you need to look at the rifle rulebook. Seems a lot more logical than trying to cram one niche long gun into the pistol rules.

You've already touched on some of the problems. Scenarios, starting positions, one handed shooting... Thinking back on stages I really liked, it seems to me like a lot of them would not be at all possible with a carbine. Do we stop making interesting pistol stages so that they are all carbine compatible?

Equipment is also an issue. I don't know anyone with a pistol caliber carbine with over 10" barrel. I know several guys with carbine conversions for their pistols, but that barrel length rule kills those. Everyone with an IDPA ID that I know of has an AK or an AR. If you want to shoot IDPA with long guns - and I am definitely for that, I loooooove IDPA DMG! - why not renew the DMG rule book? That would be a lot more logical, and in my area at least a lot more popular way to go.

In summary, IDPA with long guns is an excellent idea, but "let's cram one type of long gun into the pistol rules" is a lousy execution of that idea.
The DMG rules are being revised.

USPSA added PCC to thir sport July 2016. They have a set of provisional rules.

I don't think it will change stages much. I already include at least one 20 yard stage in every match.
Cody

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Randy Harris
11-23-2016, 09:14 AM
I think you are greatly exaggerating any perceived benefits of IDPA over USPSA. I am no expert on the matter though. Randy however does know a bit about it. IIRC he had a pretty decent placing at last years World Championships in the Masters SSP class.

Thanks Mike, I guess I did OK for a "Timmy"....;)

That Guy
11-23-2016, 10:38 AM
The DMG rules are being revised.

Yeah, so they've said to me too. At this point, I'll believe it when I see the new DMG rule book...



I don't think it will change stages much.

Really? I can think of a bunch of stages that I've shot in matches that would be difficult to downright impossible with a carbine. There are of course the classic carry the baby, evacuate your wounded buddy, carry a briefcase stages... One I particularly liked had a spring-loaded target stand with two targets, with a cable connected to a briefcase. You had to pull the briefcase to you against spring tension to lift the targets visible, draw and shoot one-handed. Really neat and quick little stage!

Glenn E. Meyer
11-23-2016, 11:14 AM
This last weekend, we had a stage where you had to carry an attache case and had to negotiate the stage with it. The 'case' was heavy and most folks shot it one handed. It would have not been possible with a carbine.

NEPAKevin
11-23-2016, 11:29 AM
"If" the match director wants to make the CoFs PCP friendly, it would be no harder than making matches revolver friendly. However, we tried running long guns and hand guns concurrently and the real snag is in administration and range etiquette. Until the SOs and shooters become as comfortable with the dance of running long guns as they are with handguns, it can really screw the pooch in regards to match flow.

jetfire
11-23-2016, 11:50 AM
There are other factors beyond shooting skill alone. The types of stages are different, such as tactical priority, cover, required movement, typically more non-threats. The brain/nervous responses will be different. In IDPA you have to be more careful about the stage rules. In USPSA you don't think about those...or shouldn't. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a great USPSA shooter shoot IDPA and totally blow the stage, and even forget targets. If you want to measure raw pistol handling skills, then USPSA is your game. If you want to measure use of cover, tactical priority, and moving while shooting, then IDPA tests those skills more.
Cody

I love IDPA. I have worked for IDPA, and was on a Tiger Team (I have the coin somewhere). However, this statement drives me up the walls. Use of cover in IDPA is a joke compared to real world utilization of cover, and furthermore I've had to make far more difficult shots in terms of body position in USPSA matches than IDPA's "cover" has ever forced me to.

Required movement? Most IDPA stages that do require movement ask for only a paltry amount compared to what you do in a USPSA stage, and I've done waaaaaaaaaaay more shooting on the move at USPSA matches than I've ever done in IDPA matches. IDPA's use of concealment is just as big a joke when you can buy a pre-stiffened "concealment" vest from Armadillo concealment (I have one and it's great for the game).

Lastly, I've shot a ton of IDPA matches, and the only places I've seen legit GMs compete is at Nationals, where they're all competing against each other. And the only time I've ever seen a legit GM "blow" a stage was when they were getting hammered with ticky-tack penalities by some MM SO who low-key hates the GM for being good at shooting.

orionz06
11-23-2016, 12:35 PM
Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Orion.
Cody


You too!


I love IDPA.
But do you kneel and pray towards Berryville five times a day?



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cclaxton
11-23-2016, 12:54 PM
Yeah, so they've said to me too. At this point, I'll believe it when I see the new DMG rule book...
Really? I can think of a bunch of stages that I've shot in matches that would be difficult to downright impossible with a carbine. There are of course the classic carry the baby, evacuate your wounded buddy, carry a briefcase stages... One I particularly liked had a spring-loaded target stand with two targets, with a cable connected to a briefcase. You had to pull the briefcase to you against spring tension to lift the targets visible, draw and shoot one-handed. Really neat and quick little stage!
There is no argument that PCC shooters will need to shoot stages differently. While the stage may not work the same for PCC shooters as pistol shooters, it can be made the same for all PCC shooters. I design 12-14 stages a month and it just adds another stage design element.

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 01:13 PM
I love IDPA. I have worked for IDPA, and was on a Tiger Team (I have the coin somewhere). However, this statement drives me up the walls. Use of cover in IDPA is a joke compared to real world utilization of cover, and furthermore I've had to make far more difficult shots in terms of body position in USPSA matches than IDPA's "cover" has ever forced me to. Required movement? Most IDPA stages that do require movement ask for only a paltry amount compared to what you do in a USPSA stage, and I've done waaaaaaaaaaay more shooting on the move at USPSA matches than I've ever done in IDPA matches. IDPA's use of concealment is just as big a joke when you can buy a pre-stiffened "concealment" vest from Armadillo concealment (I have one and it's great for the game).
Lastly, I've shot a ton of IDPA matches, and the only places I've seen legit GMs compete is at Nationals, where they're all competing against each other. And the only time I've ever seen a legit GM "blow" a stage was when they were getting hammered with ticky-tack penalities by some MM SO who low-key hates the GM for being good at shooting.
I saw 3 GM's at my WV match, two at the Maryland State IDPA Match, among others. Convenient locations may be a big factor. I think there were at least 3 at Virginia State. But that is not important to my argument.
Everything is relative and needs to be taken in context. There is no doubt that cover in IDPA is way too loose compared to real use of cover. But, as I said before, this is the only time the vast majority of shooters get practice even using cover or priority. I would say 70-80% of IDPA club shooters will practice a few times a week, and then come to an IDPA match. They own inexpensive guns, and shoot factory or commercially reloaded ammo. Over time they get dramatically better at safety, pistol skills, must use cover (even if very basic and liberal), priority, engaging disappearing targets, learn to shoot while moving, and do it under the time pressure of competition. Over time they become MUCH BETTER, and that makes them better on the streets when they conceal carry. Some will take tactical classes and learn better tactics. Most will not. I try to do what I can to challenge them to improve use of cover through stage design and hard cover. I try to challenge people with awkward shooting positions, such as prone, around a tree trunk, twisted around a bicycle, side-stepping, etc. I would like to see them allow for more movement in IDPA. The new rules expanded it from 15 yards to 20 yards, but to me that is still not enough.

I see most IDPA shooters learn new skills over time. First, they learn to keep their feet behind cover. Then they learn to place their lead foot in a safe position quickly. Then they learn to lean out JUST ENOUGH to get the shot, because it saves time and movement. While these are not the high level of skills that SWAT teams and combat people would use, they are much better than nothing. Don't forget the audience. The audience for IDPA is different than the audience for USPSA and the audience for those training for VIP Protection.
Cody

DAB
11-23-2016, 01:30 PM
yup.

when i started shooting IDPA about 3 years ago, i thought i was a good shot. nope. not with the clock ticking, feet moving, behind cover.....

i'm way better now than i was then, even won a stage last week. woot.

i have no dreams of winning a sanctioned match, but i do it for fun, for building confidence, and improving proficiency.

JAD
11-23-2016, 01:35 PM
This last weekend, we had a stage where you had to carry an attache case and had to negotiate the stage with it. The 'case' was heavy and most folks shot it one handed. It would have not been possible with a carbine.
O ye of little faith...

I suck with a carbine, and I know for a fact I can manage IDPA distances reasonably well with one hand free and a lightweight AR.

Doesn't mean its a good idea, but it's worth practicing.

jetfire
11-23-2016, 01:43 PM
I saw 3 GM's at my WV match, two at the Maryland State IDPA Match, among others. Convenient locations may be a big factor. I think there were at least 3 at Virginia State. But that is not important to my argument.
Everything is relative and needs to be taken in context. There is no doubt that cover in IDPA is way too loose compared to real use of cover. But, as I said before, this is the only time the vast majority of shooters get practice even using cover or priority. I would say 70-80% of IDPA club shooters will practice a few times a week, and then come to an IDPA match. They own inexpensive guns, and shoot factory or commercially reloaded ammo. Over time they get dramatically better at safety, pistol skills, must use cover (even if very basic and liberal), priority, engaging disappearing targets, learn to shoot while moving, and do it under the time pressure of competition. Over time they become MUCH BETTER, and that makes them better on the streets when they conceal carry. Some will take tactical classes and learn better tactics. Most will not. I try to do what I can to challenge them to improve use of cover through stage design and hard cover. I try to challenge people with awkward shooting positions, such as prone, around a tree trunk, twisted around a bicycle, side-stepping, etc. I would like to see them allow for more movement in IDPA. The new rules expanded it from 15 yards to 20 yards, but to me that is still not enough.

I see most IDPA shooters learn new skills over time. First, they learn to keep their feet behind cover. Then they learn to place their lead foot in a safe position quickly. Then they learn to lean out JUST ENOUGH to get the shot, because it saves time and movement. While these are not the high level of skills that SWAT teams and combat people would use, they are much better than nothing. Don't forget the audience. The audience for IDPA is different than the audience for USPSA and the audience for those training for VIP Protection.
Cody

/inner monologue: why am I doing this to myself

Okay, I am not saying IDPA is bad or anything like that. But to claim that it's somehow "better" than USPSA for defensive shooting is just nonsense. Yes, there is cover. There is also "cover" in USPSA matches, they just call it "fault lines behind walls" instead. You do stuff in both sports that is wildly unsound as defensive tactics, but because IDPA forces people to wear dopey vests that they'd never wear on the streets and makes people use some arbitrary definition of cover, people think it's more tactical or something.

I don't care what people shoot. I really don't. I want people to get better at shooting, and both IDPA and USPSA will make you better at shooting, especially if you're some Joe CCW dude. Keeping your feet behind an arbitrary cover line is probably way less useful in a self-defense content than being able to shoot a sub 3 second bill drill at 15 yards.

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 01:57 PM
/inner monologue: why am I doing this to myself

Okay, I am not saying IDPA is bad or anything like that. But to claim that it's somehow "better" than USPSA for defensive shooting is just nonsense. Yes, there is cover. There is also "cover" in USPSA matches, they just call it "fault lines behind walls" instead. You do stuff in both sports that is wildly unsound as defensive tactics, but because IDPA forces people to wear dopey vests that they'd never wear on the streets and makes people use some arbitrary definition of cover, people think it's more tactical or something.

I don't care what people shoot. I really don't. I want people to get better at shooting, and both IDPA and USPSA will make you better at shooting, especially if you're some Joe CCW dude. Keeping your feet behind an arbitrary cover line is probably way less useful in a self-defense content than being able to shoot a sub 3 second bill drill at 15 yards.

The way to win a gunfight is to NOT GET SHOT!

I think tactics and cover are more important than a sub 3s bill drill. But even more important than that are situational tactics. As I have progressed in Krav, I have learned way more in managing distance and tactical decision making in self-defense than I have learned anywhere else in shooting classes. A gun is not going to stop a guy from stabbing you when he starts 2 yards away, or closer. A gun makes no sense in that situation. What does make sense is to attack the attack and stop the blade. What about someone coming up from behind you and putting a pistol in your back? Is a 3s bill drill gonna save you?...NO. Knowing how to deflect the muzzle and neutralize the attack certainly does. The main point I am making here is that self-defense is DEFENSIVE, and focusing too much on the gun skills as a solution means people will use the tool they have to their detriment. If you don't have pepper spray, and you have a gun, what will you use? Don't get me wrong...fast gun skills are important...at the proper distance.

But staying behind cover, and knowing how to conceal your location by keeping your feet behind cover can save your life. And, I think winning a gun fight is not about getting the bad guy...it's about not getting shot.
Cody

jetfire
11-23-2016, 02:14 PM
Fuck this, I'm out.

taadski
11-23-2016, 02:20 PM
The way to win a gunfight is to NOT GET SHOT!

I think tactics and cover are more important than a sub 3s bill drill. But even more important than that are situational tactics. As I have progressed in Krav, I have learned way more in managing distance and tactical decision making in self-defense than I have learned anywhere else in shooting classes. A gun is not going to stop a guy from stabbing you when he starts 2 yards away, or closer. A gun makes no sense in that situation. What does make sense is to attack the attack and stop the blade. What about someone coming up from behind you and putting a pistol in your back? Is a 3s bill drill gonna save you?...NO. Knowing how to deflect the muzzle and neutralize the attack certainly does. The main point I am making here is that self-defense is DEFENSIVE, and focusing too much on the gun skills as a solution means people will use the tool they have to their detriment. If you don't have pepper spray, and you have a gun, what will you use? Don't get me wrong...fast gun skills are important...at the proper distance.

But staying behind cover, and knowing how to conceal your location by keeping your feet behind cover can save your life. And, I think winning a gun fight is not about getting the bad guy...it's about not getting shot.
Cody








------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> IDPA lane is back over here...

BigT
11-23-2016, 02:59 PM
The way to win a gunfight is to NOT GET SHOT!

I think tactics and cover are more important than a sub 3s bill drill. But even more important than that are situational tactics. As I have progressed in Krav, I have learned way more in managing distance and tactical decision making in self-defense than I have learned anywhere else in shooting classes. A gun is not going to stop a guy from stabbing you when he starts 2 yards away, or closer. A gun makes no sense in that situation. What does make sense is to attack the attack and stop the blade. What about someone coming up from behind you and putting a pistol in your back? Is a 3s bill drill gonna save you?...NO. Knowing how to deflect the muzzle and neutralize the attack certainly does. The main point I am making here is that self-defense is DEFENSIVE, and focusing too much on the gun skills as a solution means people will use the tool they have to their detriment. If you don't have pepper spray, and you have a gun, what will you use? Don't get me wrong...fast gun skills are important...at the proper distance.

But staying behind cover, and knowing how to conceal your location by keeping your feet behind cover can save your life. And, I think winning a gun fight is not about getting the bad guy...it's about not getting shot.
Cody


I got shot in my last gunfight. I thought I won. Apparently I was mistaken.

cheby
11-23-2016, 03:01 PM
I think tactics and cover are more important than a sub 3s bill drill.

Tactics are those funny things that people who can't shoot like talking about.... And BTW, it is a sub 2s bill drill that matters, not 3s, duh!

orionz06
11-23-2016, 03:15 PM
Tactics are those funny things that people who can't shoot like talking about.... And BTW, it is a sub 2s bill drill that matters, not 3s, duh!

IDPA standards are 3s.


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jetfire
11-23-2016, 03:18 PM
Tactics are those funny things that people who can't shoot like talking about.... And BTW, it is a sub 2s bill drill that matters, not 3s, duh!

Well and when I originally wrote the post that he's referencing, I said a sub 3-second Bill Drill...at 15 yards.

cheby
11-23-2016, 03:27 PM
Well and when I originally wrote the post that he's referencing, I said a sub 3-second Bill Drill...at 15 yards.

Yes, you did. A 3-sec BD at 15 yards is very good.... I am just amused by this debate. IDPA is very amusing in general.

jetfire
11-23-2016, 03:35 PM
Yes, you did. A 3-sec BD at 15 yards is very good.... I am just amused by this debate. IDPA is very amusing in general.

This thread turned into a fucking clownshow.

Here's the problem: IDPA is just fine as a shooting sport. There's really nothing wrong with it, other than some of the people who shoot IDPA insist that because the rules of their game have the words "cover" and "concealment" in it, it somehow makes that sport better for people who are serious about self-defense. That's fine if they want to believe that, but for whatever reason they also feel the need to try and prove that to people who either 1) don't care or 2) can't be convinced.

I mean, I'd argue that USPSA is better because it rewards you for violence of action, but whatever. The second people started talking about tactics I should have bailed but I'm fucking stupid and can't resist.

busdriver
11-23-2016, 04:23 PM
I've only shot one IDPA match, and I "lucked" into a standards match. But I assume it's like USPSA, and clubs tend to have a "flavor" of match based on the MD.
I've shot Fredericksburg a bit, it tends to have less opportunity for shooting on the move. Also, a C class production shooter will see less opportunity than a higher level open shooter. Let alone heading down to N Carolina and watching the local super squad compete against Chris Tilley.

Edwin
11-23-2016, 04:40 PM
I've had to reframe how I think about IDPA so as not to go crazy thinking about the higher levels of the sport.

IDPA is basically a gateway drug to get new shooters who suck hooked on the idea of competition and improving themselves. We use it as a feeder club to encourage people to get better at everything involved in using a gun. Those who legit want to improve will practice and then eventually shoot USPSA so they can seriously improve. Those who get stuck in the mindset that IDPA is actually training, stay there and never improve much beyond where they are. I've seen this pattern play out numerous times over the last couple of years and it works for me.

tl;dr
Use IDPA to trick people into practicing and improving. Those that want to get good will and those that don't, won't.

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 04:55 PM
I got shot in my last gunfight. I thought I won. Apparently I was mistaken.
Glad you are okay. Would you have rather not been shot?
Cody

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 05:12 PM
I've had to reframe how I think about IDPA so as not to go crazy thinking about the higher levels of the sport.
IDPA is basically a gateway drug to get new shooters who suck hooked on the idea of competition and improving themselves. We use it as a feeder club to encourage people to get better at everything involved in using a gun. Those who legit want to improve will practice and then eventually shoot USPSA so they can seriously improve. Those who get stuck in the mindset that IDPA is actually training, stay there and never improve much beyond where they are. I've seen this pattern play out numerous times over the last couple of years and it works for me.
tl;dr
Use IDPA to trick people into practicing and improving. Those that want to get good will and those that don't, won't.
I have seen some people, IDPA Masters, who don't shoot USPSA at all. I see others that go on to USPSA and do both.
But there is no doubt about people improving while shooting IDPA in every aspect of gun handling. A lot of people....shocker....are not interested in buying a $2000 STI because that's what most guys have, and becoming a USPSA A Class or a GM. MOST PEOPLE who shoot IDPA want to get to a level where they are confident in their own pistol shooting in a variety of situations and don't really suck...to use your negative term. They can do that in IDPA...and they don't need to go beyond that. I will still put any experienced IDPA shooter up against a common criminal shooter any day. That is not to say there aren't people who don't continue to improve...there are. That happens for a variety of reasons, but the most common one is they simply don't have time to commit the number of hours needed to dry fire practice, nor the discipline to work on their speed and their grip and their aim. Other reasons are old age, injuries, and just not motivated enough.
If you want to work on becoming a GM or A class, more power to you...seriously, I hope you make it. But it is a mistake to think that everyone else needs to be there in order to defend themselves.
Cody

John Hearne
11-23-2016, 05:16 PM
I hate to muddle the thread with facts but:

First, "proper" use of cover is context dependent. Paul Howe has a very different take on the use of cover that would not meet IDPA requirements. Is Paul Howe an idiot giving advice that will "get ya kilt on the streetz?" No, Paul Howe teaches a more "offensive" use of cover and is more concerned with hitting the bad guy than getting every inch of you behind cover that he can.

Second, I've been carrying a patrol rifle since 1998. I have been shooting PCC in local IDPA and local USPSA matches since 2006. I don't know how many stages, I've shot but I think it's enough to form some opinions. I have never thought a stage needed to be "tweaked" to make my time with the PCC valuable. If it says support hand only, I shoot it off my left should with just my support hand controlling it. Off-side cover shots, switch shoulders. Part of the value of shooting the PCC is that you are working in a pistol fight environment.

I carry my PCC with the upper and lower separated in a 26" tool box and put it together on the first stage. I then sling it with chamber flag to move it around the range. This has worked so far just fine.

Mr_White
11-23-2016, 05:23 PM
Glad you are okay. Would you have rather not been shot?
Cody

BigT obviously can and will speak for himself.

But that seems like a silly question. Who wouldn't rather not get shot?

I think this is a better question, though it probably has just as obvious an answer as your question: What ENDED the gunfight?

Tactics are great. They can create a temporary window of opportunity where it did not already exist, to effectively bring marksmanship skill to bear on the adversary and then more permanently stop the threat. Sometimes that's the only way to facilitate ending the problem because skill alone cannot meet the requirements of the current window of opportunity due to human dynamics or the physical circumstances involved. Other times skill can end the fight sooner, if they were of a sufficient level to be effective within the existing window of opportunity.

Mr_White
11-23-2016, 05:27 PM
First, "proper" use of cover is context dependent. Paul Howe has a very different take on the use of cover that would not meet IDPA requirements. Is Paul Howe an idiot giving advice that will "get ya kilt on the streetz?" No, Paul Howe teaches a more "offensive" use of cover and is more concerned with hitting the bad guy than getting every inch of you behind cover that he can.

Right on, that sounds great. The overly defensive use of cover that is commonly taught (at least according to my experience in training) is ok and definitely does have a place, but it is Day One stuff and only the tip of the iceberg that emerges once human dynamics and an opposing will are included.

jlw
11-23-2016, 05:38 PM
One of the things that turned me off on IDPA was people whose only notion of tactics comes from IDPA thinking they can speak with authority on tactics.

Of course, you can also find that guy on the Timmy side who thinks his 2-day course somewhere qualifies him to debate tactics with someone who actually "goes through doors".

Does that guy hang out at USPSA matches, or do they just argue about shooting better?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

HopetonBrown
11-23-2016, 05:58 PM
cclaxton, your obsessive compulsion to white knight for IDPA actually makes the argument for IDPA (and yourself) look worse, not better. And for the record I shoot IDPA.

IDPA is not tactical training, and I don't think it prepares you any more for a gunfight than USPSA. It's just a good way to get people involved in action pistol sports with minimal outlay.

PS you don't need a $2k STI to be competitive in USPSA, ask Gabe White (he shoots a G34 for the record, as do plenty of other people). Hope you have a happy thanksgiving.

Edwin
11-23-2016, 07:37 PM
I have seen some people, IDPA Masters, who don't shoot USPSA at all. I see others that go on to USPSA and do both.
But there is no doubt about people improving while shooting IDPA in every aspect of gun handling. A lot of people....shocker....are not interested in buying a $2000 STI because that's what most guys have, and becoming a USPSA A Class or a GM. MOST PEOPLE who shoot IDPA want to get to a level where they are confident in their own pistol shooting in a variety of situations and don't really suck...to use your negative term. They can do that in IDPA...and they don't need to go beyond that. I will still put any experienced IDPA shooter up against a common criminal shooter any day. That is not to say there aren't people who don't continue to improve...there are. That happens for a variety of reasons, but the most common one is they simply don't have time to commit the number of hours needed to dry fire practice, nor the discipline to work on their speed and their grip and their aim. Other reasons are old age, injuries, and just not motivated enough.
If you want to work on becoming a GM or A class, more power to you...seriously, I hope you make it. But it is a mistake to think that everyone else needs to be there in order to defend themselves.
Cody

http://i.imgur.com/JLgcfak.png

Luke
11-23-2016, 07:49 PM
What happens if you get into a gun fight in a empty parking lot? Guessing the sub 3 minute bill drill gets important lol

MVS
11-23-2016, 08:30 PM
What happens if you get into a gun fight in a empty parking lot? Guessing the sub 3 minute bill drill gets important lol

Dang, even I can shoot a sub 3 minute Bill drill.

Luke
11-23-2016, 08:36 PM
Dang, even I can shoot a sub 3 minute Bill drill.

Gamer. IDPA has no space for you..


Welcome to uspsa. We don't hide from our cardboard.

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 09:09 PM
Strawman
I didn't attack anyone or anything...I made an argument. Let's talk about issues, not each other.
Cody

orionz06
11-23-2016, 09:13 PM
I didn't attack anyone or anything...I made an argument. Let's talk about issues, not each other.
Cody

Read the post in a browser, it was rather clear what occurred.

HopetonBrown
11-23-2016, 09:14 PM
generally the suckier shooters will be found at idpa matches


Since when do you have to be a member to shoot idpgay


Gamer. IDPA has no space for you..


Welcome to uspsa. We don't hide from our cardboard.

I liked you better when you were Wannabe and not Doodie, Jr.

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 09:20 PM
First, "proper" use of cover is context dependent. Paul Howe has a very different take on the use of cover that would not meet IDPA requirements. Is Paul Howe an idiot giving advice that will "get ya kilt on the streetz?" No, Paul Howe teaches a more "offensive" use of cover and is more concerned with hitting the bad guy than getting every inch of you behind cover that he can.
I completely agree about context. I subscribe to the John Holschen school of cover where use of cover is maximized. As an armed citizen, I am interested in not getting shot, so I am going to get out or get to cover and use every inch of it. The exception is if I have a family member or other vulnerable person I want to save, and where I may need to take more risk. IDPA use of cover skills are just very basic, and nothing more. I try to design stages to make shooters use tighter cover through good stage design. But even then it's still very basic.
Cody

Luke
11-23-2016, 09:37 PM
I liked you better when you were Wannabe and not Doodie, Jr.

I did too. Idk why but this subject brings out the worst in me. I promise I'll do better.

cclaxton
11-23-2016, 09:43 PM
One of the things that turned me off on IDPA was people whose only notion of tactics comes from IDPA thinking they can speak with authority on tactics. Of course, you can also find that guy on the Timmy side who thinks his 2-day course somewhere qualifies him to debate tactics with someone who actually "goes through doors".
I recognize that gap and that is why I am always recommending to the shooters in my two clubs and in my VA/MD/DC area to take classes in pepper spray, CQB, Krav Maga, BJJ, etc. And, I recommend reading Rory Miller's Book on Facing Violence, and learning disarms and other techniques. I can't stop people from being pretentious and charlatan, but I can help them get to the right places to learn real self-defense. What I have learned after two years of Krav is that defending an attack takes a lot more than pulling a gun. Being good at shooting is important, but knowing how to disarm a weapon and knowing how to get out of a bar-arm is what allows me to either end the attack or get to my firearm or spray.
Cody

Peally
11-23-2016, 10:03 PM
To be fair to Luke it's really hard not to hate on it with Joyce in the thread defending every part of it to the death.

littlejerry
11-23-2016, 11:09 PM
I have seen some people, IDPA Masters, who don't shoot USPSA at all. I see others that go on to USPSA and do both.
But there is no doubt about people improving while shooting IDPA in every aspect of gun handling. A lot of people....shocker....are not interested in buying a $2000 STI because that's what most guys have, and becoming a USPSA A Class or a GM. MOST PEOPLE who shoot IDPA want to get to a level where they are confident in their own pistol shooting in a variety of situations and don't really suck...to use your negative term. They can do that in IDPA...and they don't need to go beyond that. I will still put any experienced IDPA shooter up against a common criminal shooter any day. That is not to say there aren't people who don't continue to improve...there are. That happens for a variety of reasons, but the most common one is they simply don't have time to commit the number of hours needed to dry fire practice, nor the discipline to work on their speed and their grip and their aim. Other reasons are old age, injuries, and just not motivated enough.
If you want to work on becoming a GM or A class, more power to you...seriously, I hope you make it. But it is a mistake to think that everyone else needs to be there in order to defend themselves.
Cody

Huh? As someone who has only ever shot USPSA matches with a 19 or 34 I'm confused by the idea that everyone hAs $2000 STIs...

Production is by far the most competitive class around me. I shoot limited with a Glock 19 because 10rd mags are lame.

Edwin
11-23-2016, 11:47 PM
I guess bad training is better than no training.

cclaxton
11-24-2016, 06:02 AM
Huh? As someone who has only ever shot USPSA matches with a 19 or 34 I'm confused by the idea that everyone hAs $2000 STIs...

Production is by far the most competitive class around me. I shoot limited with a Glock 19 because 10rd mags are lame.
Maybe it's an East Coast thing. I shoot at Fburg, Quantico, and Thurmont USPSA. And the Maryland State Match.
MD State: 39 prod, 48 Lim, 26 open, 6 PCC, 17 SS.
Nov Fburg: 25 prod, 88 total.
Quantico about the same.
And a good percentage of the production group are sponsored.
Cody

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GJM
11-24-2016, 08:16 AM
Right on, that sounds great. The overly defensive use of cover that is commonly taught (at least according to my experience in training) is ok and definitely does have a place, but it is Day One stuff and only the tip of the iceberg that emerges once human dynamics and an opposing will are included.

That heart breaking video of the Dallas officer being shot behind cover:


http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/dallas-police-gunman-shooting-cop-officer-victim-video-kdfw-graphic-opening-fire-twitter-youtube/


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orionz06
11-24-2016, 11:24 AM
Maybe it's an East Coast thing. I shoot at Fburg, Quantico, and Thurmont USPSA. And the Maryland State Match.
MD State: 39 prod, 48 Lim, 26 open, 6 PCC, 17 SS.
Nov Fburg: 25 prod, 88 total.
Quantico about the same.
And a good percentage of the production group are sponsored.
Cody

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Maybe it's your clubs, or maybe it's what the people wanna shoot? We got lots of production shooters here shooting approximations of their carry gear. Some friends shoot AIWB in Limited. Conversely lots of the IDPA dudes are shooting finicky IDPA race guns and don't carry at all.

Zincwarrior
11-24-2016, 11:43 AM
What happens if you get into a gun fight in a empty parking lot? Guessing the sub 3 minute bill drill gets important lol

Not certain how this relates to the draft IDPA ruleset. I guess shooting all those turtles means I'm ideally suited to defend myself parking lot tacticool ninja style. :cool:

Zincwarrior
11-24-2016, 11:44 AM
Gamer. IDPA has no space for you..


Welcome to uspsa. We don't hide from our cardboard.

If you don't like IDPA why are you posting?

Zincwarrior
11-24-2016, 11:46 AM
To be fair to Luke it's really hard not to hate on it with Joyce in the thread defending every part of it to the death.

Er..maybe because its a thread about IDPA and rules changes, not what sucks about IDPA and why USPSA is so much better.

MVS
11-24-2016, 12:16 PM
Er..maybe because its a thread about IDPA and rules changes, not what sucks about IDPA and why USPSA is so much better.

Back to the rule changes. Sorta. I ran the proposed qualifier with my 1911 and made Expert. I really don't have anything to compare it to since I have never owned a 1911 before, and have less than 1000 rounds through this one. It seems pretty easy, but I do see Randy's point as even if i made Master with a little practice, that would put me nowhere near the top Masters.

Jim Watson
11-24-2016, 12:28 PM
All threads are about why USPSA is better than IDPA.
And I am tired of them. IDPA suits my interests and abilities in the Golden Years as IPSC did when I was younger.

Zincwarrior
11-24-2016, 01:19 PM
Back to the rule changes. Sorta. I ran the proposed qualifier with my 1911 and made Expert. I really don't have anything to compare it to since I have never owned a 1911 before, and have less than 1000 rounds through this one. It seems pretty easy, but I do see Randy's point as even if i made Master with a little practice, that would put me nowhere near the top Masters.

What do you normally make MVS prior to the changes and the 1911 tryout?

MVS
11-24-2016, 02:44 PM
What do you normally make MVS prior to the changes and the 1911 tryout?

That is what I mean that I don't have much to compare it to. I have shot exactly two USPSA matches, one of which was a classifier match, and only made C in Carry Optics. IIRC , the IDPA classifier may have been a DOW once, not sure but other than that I have never shot it. All of my shooting prior to recently has been tactical Timmy stuff, not competition.

NEPAKevin
11-25-2016, 12:35 PM
cclaxton, your obsessive compulsion to white knight for IDPA actually makes the argument for IDPA (and yourself) look worse, not better. And for the record I shoot IDPA.
.

While this is all true, it would also be nice if the USPSA fanboys would try to keep it in their pants as well. It takes two to have a dick measuring contest.

Peally
11-25-2016, 02:35 PM
Er..maybe because its a thread about IDPA and rules changes, not what sucks about IDPA and why USPSA is so much better.

A few of the changes are potentially pretty retarded. It seems to be a running theme with IDPA, which is why there's conversation about it.

It is very disappointing to say the least. They could have made it an interesting, different game.

busdriver
11-25-2016, 07:11 PM
Which begs the question, what direction would PF types like to see IDPA head towards?

Mitch
11-25-2016, 07:57 PM
Which begs the question, what direction would PF types like to see IDPA head towards?

Honestly I'd be pretty happy if they just allowed AIWB. I really don't see why it's a problem. If someone shows up with a sketchy holster, don't let them shoot. If they don't reholster safely, give them one warning to figure out a better way and if it happens again, don't let them finish a match.

That's the only thing that keeps me from shooting. There's other things I mildly disagree with but I don't find them so off putting that it keeps me out.


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John Hearne
11-25-2016, 09:16 PM
Which begs the question, what direction would PF types like to see IDPA head towards?

Nearest USPSA match is 51 minutes from my house. IDPA club is 10 minutes. I have a wife in school and an infant. Guess which one I'm shooting? (If you said neither, that's just cruel, but close to the truth)

jetfire
11-25-2016, 11:41 PM
Which begs the question, what direction would PF types like to see IDPA head towards?

Just let me shoot from AIWB

jlw
11-26-2016, 12:16 AM
Which begs the question, what direction would PF types like to see IDPA head towards?

Keep the second per point down scoring; I like the emphasis on accuracy.

Consolidate SSP, ESP, CDP, and CCP into one division with a list of permissible mods and have at it. If a shooter choses to limit themselves to an 8-round pistol thats their choice. The single action triggers and the spirit of John Browning will more than make up for it.

Edwin
11-26-2016, 12:35 AM
+1 Let me use AIWB

I'd also like more rounds in a mag but that would require a lot more changes.

orionz06
11-26-2016, 12:37 AM
Which begs the question, what direction would PF types like to see IDPA head towards?


Actually allow normal carry gear. AIWB or at least holsters forward of 3:00, along with mag pouches. Allow for mods that are more practical for carry these days. If I go around and look at what's said to be a carry gun by most younger shooters they'd be told to go pound sand by IDPA. As an organization that allegedly cares about the defensive shooter they've told all the new blood to GTFO. SSP should remain SSP but ESP should be wide open for what is enhanced in 2016. Hell, if they capped it at what was considered enhanced in 2010 they'd open lots of doors for people.

Vests... Some people do wear them but why not limit it to real clothing brands? Cut the competition gear outta the mix. Filson vest? North Face? Orvis? Sure... Something that's made specifically for IDPA... nope, get that gamer shit outta here.




Keep the second per point down scoring; I like the emphasis on accuracy.

Consolidate SSP, ESP, CDP, and CCP into one division with a list of permissible mods and have at it. If a shooter choses to limit themselves to an 8-round pistol thats their choice. The single action triggers and the spirit of John Browning will more than make up for it.

Gotta have the point per second.

John Hearne
11-26-2016, 08:28 AM
If a shooter choses to limit themselves to an 8-round pistol thats their choice. The single action triggers and the spirit of John Browning will more than make up for it.

That's just cold right there.

And I'm OK with it if I get to calibrate the steel. :)

Randy Harris
11-26-2016, 10:40 AM
Actually allow normal carry gear. AIWB or at least holsters forward of 3:00, along with mag pouches. Allow for mods that are more practical for carry these days. If I go around and look at what's said to be a carry gun by most younger shooters they'd be told to go pound sand by IDPA. As an organization that allegedly cares about the defensive shooter they've told all the new blood to GTFO. SSP should remain SSP but ESP should be wide open for what is enhanced in 2016. Hell, if they capped it at what was considered enhanced in 2010 they'd open lots of doors for people.

Vests... Some people do wear them but why not limit it to real clothing brands? Cut the competition gear outta the mix. Filson vest? North Face? Orvis? Sure... Something that's made specifically for IDPA... nope, get that gamer shit outta here.





Gotta have the point per second.


Largely agree. But I fear that the AIWB will be a while before IDPA HQ are comfortable enough with novice shooters rolling that way. Not that it is right or wrong, it is just how it is. If nothing else they could do AIWB as an "Expert or above" level thing (who knows maybe they'd go for that).

As to vests... I wore a T shirt as a cover garment with an IWB holster at the 2014 Nationals and people looked at me like I had 2 heads and tentacles. About half the SOs asked me if I "forgot something" and looked genuinely surprised when I pulled my shirt up to reveal my pistol. When they did the equipment check the checker commented about my gear "Ahh a REAL concealed carry guy".

Back in the early days you couldn't wear "sponsor" gear or even camo...I wouldn't mind seeing that return. But as it stands now to be the most competitive you really need to go with the starched Armadillo Concealment vest which is COMPLETELY inappropriate for real world concealed carry but is a purpose built gaming device. And sponsors like to advertise so we have vests that look like Nascar cars with all the advertisers patches.... and even people who are not sponsored wear the same "spiderman " shirts with gun company names on them I guess so they don't feel left out....it is truly puzzling.

And a little grip stippling on an otherwise stock G17 should not put you in ESP when it doesn't for a SW M&P. Grip stippling on Glocks (and everything) is FAR more prevalent now than it was in 1996. The MP gets away with it because the panels are "removable". But not OK on Glock since they are not. Yet everyone and their brother now has grips on carry guns stippled......

And as far as the 1 second per point I'm fine with that.

jlw
11-26-2016, 10:53 AM
That's just cold right there.


You don't even get the spirit of JMB as you shoot one of those pistols that comes all the way from Switzerland, Europe. That's near France., see.

John Hearne
11-26-2016, 11:29 AM
If nothing else they could do AIWB as an "Expert or above" level thing (who knows maybe they'd go for that).

Can we take a second to address the elephant in the room - AIWB is faster than strong side carry at 3:00. If you're running a sport intended to minimize the equipment race, allowing AIWB in the same category as strong side 3:00 carry will no be "fair" and defeats the "purpose" of IDPA - to stop the equipment race. Let's face it human nature. If you allow AIWB, EVERYBODY will go to it go gain or maintain a competitive advantage, whether they can do so safely or not. IIRC, they ran into this in the early days of IPSC and tried to ban holsters forward of the hips.

John Hearne
11-26-2016, 11:48 AM
You don't even get the spirit of JMB as you shoot one of those pistols that comes all the way from Switzerland, Europe. That's near France., see.

http://www.kappit.com/img/pics/201411_1758_hcdbe.jpg

Glenn E. Meyer
11-26-2016, 11:59 AM
1. Have IDPA sell testicle insurance and femoral artery insurance and mandate it for AIWB shooters. It will be a money maker if everybody goes for it.

2. Many folks won't go for it due to body configuration. Yes, the competitors out to win might or those who think it is better for concealment.

3. Instead of the gamer oriented revolver divisions - just have two: a. Snubbys b. Bigger revolvers. Why people actually carry snubbies - very few carry bigger revolvers as EDC (yes, some do and write an article about it in a gun rag every once in awhile). If you have moon clips or not - don't care. The pistol champion guy I shoot with carries a semi for real.

4. BUG semis divison - 25 ACP, 32 ACP and 380s. Let smallish 9mm, 40 and 45s migrate into the current semi mess - which I agree should just be Bigger Semis - if everyone goes to one platform just to win with something they don't carry, so what. Shooting a Glock 19 in different categories depending on round load is idiocy.

5. PPC - save it for a dedicated match or if you want to shoot it in a local match - shoot it outlaw for grins.

6. Anybody who spent a second of time eliminating tactical sequence as an option needs to go to a safe room with a therapy bunny. That was moronic.

olstyn
11-26-2016, 12:01 PM
Maybe it's an East Coast thing. I shoot at Fburg, Quantico, and Thurmont USPSA. And the Maryland State Match.
MD State: 39 prod, 48 Lim, 26 open, 6 PCC, 17 SS.
Nov Fburg: 25 prod, 88 total.
Quantico about the same.
And a good percentage of the production group are sponsored.
Cody

My local USPSA matches sit somewhere in between what you two guys are describing. I'd put them at an average of 40-45% each in Production and Limited (I've gone both ways with the same gun and gear - sometimes it's liberating/fun to load the mags all the way full), 2-3 diehards in Revolver, an oddball or two trying out Carry Optics and/or PCC, and the rest an even split between Open and Single Stack. Lim10 might as well not exist here in MN, as I imagine is the case in most states other than CA, NY, MA, etc. The one guy I've ever seen shooting it was using a pretty cool gun, though - it was a 2011 in .45 ACP! :)

DAL357
11-26-2016, 01:46 PM
Yeah, I know this is going to sound goofy as heck, but what about AOWB (appendix outside the waistband) carry for IDPA competition? It's not exactly the same, of course, as AIWB, but it is reasonably close, and that extra inch or so away from the body would likely clear progenitive organs and vital arteries. Yet another holster would probably have to be purchased for this, but that's life. Perhaps the holster could have a piece of steel attached to it at a 45° angle to deflect any ND towards the ground a few feet in front of the shooter. (Okay, that last idea is really far-fetched, but if that's what it takes to get that carry position accepted, why not?)

jetfire
11-26-2016, 03:22 PM
Largely agree. But I fear that the AIWB will be a while before IDPA HQ are comfortable enough with novice shooters rolling that way. Not that it is right or wrong, it is just how it is. If nothing else they could do AIWB as an "Expert or above" level thing (who knows maybe they'd go for that).

As to vests... I wore a T shirt as a cover garment with an IWB holster at the 2014 Nationals and people looked at me like I had 2 heads and tentacles. About half the SOs asked me if I "forgot something" and looked genuinely surprised when I pulled my shirt up to reveal my pistol. When they did the equipment check the checker commented about my gear "Ahh a REAL concealed carry guy".

Back in the early days you couldn't wear "sponsor" gear or even camo...I wouldn't mind seeing that return. But as it stands now to be the most competitive you really need to go with the starched Armadillo Concealment vest which is COMPLETELY inappropriate for real world concealed carry but is a purpose built gaming device. And sponsors like to advertise so we have vests that look like Nascar cars with all the advertisers patches.... and even people who are not sponsored wear the same "spiderman " shirts with gun company names on them I guess so they don't feel left out....it is truly puzzling.

And a little grip stippling on an otherwise stock G17 should not put you in ESP when it doesn't for a SW M&P. Grip stippling on Glocks (and everything) is FAR more prevalent now than it was in 1996. The MP gets away with it because the panels are "removable". But not OK on Glock since they are not. Yet everyone and their brother now has grips on carry guns stippled......

And as far as the 1 second per point I'm fine with that.

I remember when I bought my first Armadillo vest specifically to use at Nationals. I felt somewhat dirty. I can say that if IDPA decided to allow AIWB then I'd finally have a reason to get really good at reloading from a closed-front concealment garment (un-tucked t-shirt/polo)

Mitch
11-26-2016, 03:32 PM
Yeah, I know this is going to sound goofy as heck, but what about AOWB (appendix outside the waistband) carry for IDPA competition? It's not exactly the same, of course, as AIWB, but it is reasonably close, and that extra inch or so away from the body would likely clear progenitive organs and vital arteries. Yet another holster would probably have to be purchased for this, but that's life. Perhaps the holster could have a piece of steel attached to it at a 45° angle to deflect any ND towards the ground a few feet in front of the shooter. (Okay, that last idea is really far-fetched, but if that's what it takes to get that carry position accepted, why not?)

In my opinion, not necessary. My muzzle doesn't flag me with the holster I'm using. And it's easier for me to look the gun into the holster forward of the hip.

I was actually pretty close to buying an OWB holster just to shoot IDPA, but the more I think about it the more stubborn I'm getting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Luke
11-26-2016, 04:12 PM
Can we take a second to address the elephant in the room - AIWB is faster than strong side carry at 3:00. If you're running a sport intended to minimize the equipment race, allowing AIWB in the same category as strong side 3:00 carry will no be "fair" and defeats the "purpose" of IDPA - to stop the equipment race. Let's face it human nature. If you allow AIWB, EVERYBODY will go to it go gain or maintain a competitive advantage, whether they can do so safely or not. IIRC, they ran into this in the early days of IPSC and tried to ban holsters forward of the hips.

You don't think what's going on now is an equipment race? Allowing AIWB would actually allow me to shoot it using my REAL everyday carry and not force me to buy game specific gear. These people are already holstering hot guns while pointing it at their hips and legs/feet.. very scary.


What would I do if I was king of idpa?

1. No vest. If you want to wear your hipster Patagonia vest, you can do so, all the way zipped up.

2. Fault lines will be used to set the shooter up for a mandatory use of cover. Wanna know how I knew he hid enough from the cardboard? Because his feet weren't over the lines while he shot.

3. Reload where ever you want. You people want me to believe this game is close to real life events? Raise your hand if you go guns blazing towards 4 "bad guys" KNOWING you've got 1 round in your gun, but you have to shoot one of the bad guys first THEN re load. Super tactical.

4. 135PF floor. Ever seen GoldDot 124gr JHP reduced velocity load? Me either.

5. IWB/AIWB ONLY. Idc if you open carry, if you want to play my game you will carry how most of the world carries.

6. You pop a no shoot? Bye Felicia! Match DQ! (Mandatory minimum number of no shoots per match, that way you gamers can't just not use no shoots to game the rules)


Our local IDPA match is actually a killer match. They love using activators and movers and swingers and all kinds of cool stuff I've never even seen except for there. I refuse to shoot it though. It's a GAME that people tell them selves is more tactical and real life ninja than uspsa. I don't agree with the rules or how people portray idpa.

jlw
11-26-2016, 04:36 PM
You don't think what's going on now is an equipment race? Allowing AIWB would actually allow me to shoot it using my REAL everyday carry and not force me to buy game specific gear. These people are already holstering hot guns while pointing it at their hips and legs/feet.. very scary.


What would I do if I was king of idpa?

1. No vest. If you want to wear your hipster Patagonia vest, you can do so, all the way zipped up.

2. Fault lines will be used to set the shooter up for a mandatory use of cover. Wanna know how I knew he hid enough from the cardboard? Because his feet weren't over the lines while he shot.

3. Reload where ever you want. You people want me to believe this game is close to real life events? Raise your hand if you go guns blazing towards 4 "bad guys" KNOWING you've got 1 round in your gun, but you have to shoot one of the bad guys first THEN re load. Super tactical.

4. 135PF floor. Ever seen GoldDot 124gr JHP reduced velocity load? Me either.

5. IWB/AIWB ONLY. Idc if you open carry, if you want to play my game you will carry how most of the world carries.

6. You pop a no shoot? Bye Felicia! Match DQ! (Mandatory minimum number of no shoots per match, that way you gamers can't just not use no shoots to game the rules)


Our local IDPA match is actually a killer match. They love using activators and movers and swingers and all kinds of cool stuff I've never even seen except for there. I refuse to shoot it though. It's a GAME that people tell them selves is more tactical and real life ninja than uspsa. I don't agree with the rules or how people portray idpa.


I could get on board with the hitting a no shoot being a DQ (or an increased penalty).

In cooler months, I do carry OWB with a vest or jacket.

John Hearne
11-26-2016, 05:14 PM
I could get on board with the hitting a no shoot being a DQ (or an increased penalty). In cooler months, I do carry OWB with a vest or jacket.

I like the Tom Givens penalty of 200 seconds per no-shoot. You can still hangout and play but you're not winning anything.

For the last two summers in Mississippi, I've carried a 5" P220 in a J.M. Custom Kydex rig using modified shirts for everything but workout carry. You have to be a lot pickier about holster, belt, and garment but it can be done.

Luke
11-26-2016, 05:18 PM
99.99% of the people there aren't winning anything. Only one winner. The time penalty would be a joke. The dude coming in middle of the pack every time with 60 seconds in points down won't care about your 200 second penalty.

another thing I forgot I'd change is the price. $40??! Are you kidding me?

John Hearne
11-26-2016, 05:22 PM
Our local IDPA match is actually a killer match. They love using activators and movers and swingers and all kinds of cool stuff I've never even seen except for there. I refuse to shoot it though. It's a GAME that people tell them selves is more tactical and real life ninja than uspsa. I don't agree with the rules or how people portray idpa.

You know you can show up and shoot the match and all of their cool props almost any way you want as long as you're willing to incur the penalties? And until we start sending people home in body bags, every event is ultimately a game.

Use it for what you think is valuable. Depending on the day, I will shoot a match in complete gamer mode to see just how far I can push myself out of my performance comfort zone and still make reasonable hits. I can also show up, use cover properly, move deliberately, and not care as long as I'm near the lowest points down. I think that both approaches have value as long as you are cognizant of the "style" your running. If you take mode 2 and have a buddy change your magazine loadings to randomize slide lock reloads and maybe mix in a dummy round to force a malfunction clearance, you can still get a lot out of it.

Can't remember who said it, maybe Claude Werner, but "if you can't tell the difference between a match and real life, maybe you shouldn't be carrying a gun."

Luke
11-26-2016, 05:26 PM
Trust me, I know it's a game. My whole beef with idpa is that most can't admit it's a game and have to try and make it something other than a game.

I was asked to not shoot it anymore unless I have proper guns/gear. So no, I can't and don't want to shoot it anymore. Uspsa has all my needs covered: start here, shoot all those paper targets then show me an empty chamber.

Jim Watson
11-26-2016, 06:28 PM
You know you can show up and shoot the match and all of their cool props almost any way you want as long as you're willing to incur the penalties?"

On my range, please let me know in advance so I can follow you off on your tangent with the timer and stay out of your way. I like to have gotten run over by a tactician once and it was not fun.

Zincwarrior
11-26-2016, 07:02 PM
Largely agree. But I fear that the AIWB will be a while before IDPA HQ are comfortable enough with novice shooters rolling that way. Not that it is right or wrong, it is just how it is. If nothing else they could do AIWB as an "Expert or above" level thing (who knows maybe they'd go for that).

As to vests... I wore a T shirt as a cover garment with an IWB holster at the 2014 Nationals and people looked at me like I had 2 heads and tentacles. About half the SOs asked me if I "forgot something" and looked genuinely surprised when I pulled my shirt up to reveal my pistol. When they did the equipment check the checker commented about my gear "Ahh a REAL concealed carry guy".

Back in the early days you couldn't wear "sponsor" gear or even camo...I wouldn't mind seeing that return. But as it stands now to be the most competitive you really need to go with the starched Armadillo Concealment vest which is COMPLETELY inappropriate for real world concealed carry but is a purpose built gaming device. And sponsors like to advertise so we have vests that look like Nascar cars with all the advertisers patches.... and even people who are not sponsored wear the same "spiderman " shirts with gun company names on them I guess so they don't feel left out....it is truly puzzling.

And a little grip stippling on an otherwise stock G17 should not put you in ESP when it doesn't for a SW M&P. Grip stippling on Glocks (and everything) is FAR more prevalent now than it was in 1996. The MP gets away with it because the panels are "removable". But not OK on Glock since they are not. Yet everyone and their brother now has grips on carry guns stippled......

And as far as the 1 second per point I'm fine with that.
Good points. I would love to compete in my Hawaiian shirts without freaking people out.

Mitch
11-26-2016, 07:06 PM
I honestly don't see AIWB being that much of an advantage over a match. You draw what, 6 times? You'll reload at least that much, probably more, and running AIWB under a closed front shirt will cost me more on reloads than I save on the draw.

The only reason I want to shoot from there is it's how I actually carry a gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Luke
11-26-2016, 07:07 PM
Troof. Unless your a Instagram wonder it's not that big a deal.

MVS
11-26-2016, 07:42 PM
I honestly don't see AIWB being that much of an advantage over a match. You draw what, 6 times? You'll reload at least that much, probably more, and running AIWB under a closed front shirt will cost me more on reloads than I save on the draw.

The only reason I want to shoot from there is it's how I actually carry a gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. My draw is no faster from AIWB with closed front, than 3 oclock with open front, and my reloads are slower. Of course I couldn't carry OWB at 3 oclock in all of the places I can AIWB. (like work for instance)

GJM
11-26-2016, 07:49 PM
Nearly 100 percent of my carry is AIWB concealed or OWB open. Open front OWB seems very IDPA/Timmie, as jackets keep you much warmer and conceal a handgun far better when zipped.

GJM
11-26-2016, 07:53 PM
To echo what was said previously, the draw is almost irrelevant in IDPA/USPSA, as long as you don't screw it up with a bad grip.

Before I forget, Les Pepperoni now has the 17th highest classification percentage in Production, at 99.104. Way to go, Les! That pizza gun doesn't seem to be holding him back too much.

Luke
11-26-2016, 07:58 PM
That's old news GJM

busdriver
11-26-2016, 08:00 PM
Thanks for the replies folks. I'm not a timmy or an IDPA type, the format annoys my gamer self esteem. But I would like a place to play with my actual carry gun. The local IDPA match just doesnt line up with my schedule.

Luke
11-26-2016, 08:34 PM
If idpa doesn't line up with your schedule what about uspsa? When I first started uspsa I wasn't a gamer. I shot AIWB concealed for the first few months. Some time after that I was abducted by aliens and they planted the gamer gene in me.

busdriver
11-26-2016, 09:00 PM
USPSA is one of the reasons it doesn't fit my schedule! I shoot open, so I'm a super gamer.

Luke
11-26-2016, 09:09 PM
You the same busdriver on Enos? A class open guy?

busdriver
11-26-2016, 09:13 PM
That's me.

Luke
11-26-2016, 09:15 PM
I'm shortbus over there. We were commenting on the same thread about the guy saying open was slower than irons i think

busdriver
11-26-2016, 09:18 PM
Ha! Small world/gunternet.

jetfire
11-26-2016, 11:06 PM
I'm shortbus over there. We were commenting on the same thread about the guy saying open was slower than irons i think

Wut