New member, novice shooter, and how to get better

[rodralig]

Good morning to ALL -

I'm a new member to this forum. I'm based out of Southern California, about 30-miles east of LA.

I am also a novice shooter, having started with firearms only in May of this year (2016). My first gun is a Glock 22, and since then have acquired a 1911 MCO and a Beretta PX4 Storm (I was told that guns have a tendency to multiply).

I was referred to this forum when I was told that I had "maxed out" the amount of usable advice from another forum in terms of getting better.

That said, my history would be:


Started into firearms in May 2016
Had attended a few classes - 2 basic 101 classes, and a 2-day at Front Sight
Have been reading/studying on marksmanship materials (books and DVDs)
Dry practices (mostly trigger control and sight picture/alignment for now) about 2 or 3 times per week. Sometimes having occasional 2-week breaks
Participated in a couple of IDPA-type clinics



Hence, my current dilemma is, ONE - how to be able to do tight groups for the 10+ yard targets? Particularly those in 20-yd and 25-yd ranges? I've read about people doing 2- to 4-inch groups at 25-yards; but then, how could they? I can barely see the bullseye (and am already using a small dot Taran Butler competition sight on my Glock), along with the associated wobble (due to muscles and/or breathing). Please see my current groups (taken about last last weekend) below...

SECOND - in spite of having done regular dry practice (with my Glock 22 and snap caps, SiRT laser pistol, simulated targets, etc.) in preparation for a GSSF match (when I got my Glock, people recommended I join GSSF, as well) - I didn't fare good enough in the match. Albeit, that just prior to the match I wasn't dry practicing with my Glock because it was with a gunsmith for polishing (I assumed that he'd get it back to me in about a couple weeks; that, unfortunately turned into a month), but still...

At a match score of about 158 (see results below), and judging from the results of the prior event, I see myself halfway through the Amateur Civilian... Really makes me quite depressed right now... *LOL*

Any advice, tips, recommendations, etc. are most appreciated...

Thank you all, and hoping to learn from you people in getting better!!!

Cheers,





Beretta PX4 Storm in 9mm at both 15-yd and 25-yd:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/284536f58c18688aa04c3d15c68b0b8a.jpg

Glock 22 (with a recently installed Taran Butler sights) at medium fire (1-rd every 1 or 2-seconds) for 15-yd:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/7ef4e6ec18454af76908190a2032db50.jpg

1911 MC Operator at, again, medium fire (1-rd every 1 or 2-seconds) for 10-yd and 15-yd:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/3efaa33a504e68f5a202ce744e82e95a.jpg



Dry Practice for GSSF with simulated targets:
http://public.alfredrodriguez.net/Pictures/Firearms/Glock22/DryFirePrepForGSSF.jpg

Results of the recent GSSF match in Azusa, CA:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161106/5fc28442466ceda1e80960caa6cac8a5.jpg

and here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO9_4-6mh9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO9_4-6mh9s

[Wendell]

Drills are listed here: http://pistol-training.com/drills

I like dot torture (http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture) better than most. The FAST (http://pistol-training.com/drills/the-fast) is a good way of measuring & communicating your 'on-demand' ability. Vickers' 'The Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE9TtOwKA4I)' is another quck way of checking your progress (or regress).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE9TtOwKA4I

[scjbash]

You're already shooting better than most people who love to tell you about how they've been shooting their whole lives, and you're clearly interested in improving, so you're on the right path.

It looks like you are adjusting your grip after almost every shot or pair. Watch the video Wendell posted and you'll see how Hackathorn's grip never changes throughout the course of fire. In my experience people who keep adjusting their support hand aren't gripping the gun hard enough, which is sometimes a grip strength issue. Focus on maintaining a firm grip, and don't neglect that in your dry practice. Way too many people caress the damn gun during dry practice. Grip it just like you would during live fire. If you need to increase your hand strength there are multiple exercises and tools you can use for that. A search on here will most likely bring up some threads.

[psalms144.1]

As a rule, I hate to try to diagnose any shooting issue over the internet - even though you've provided plenty of great information about yourself and your shooting. I would, politely and non judgmentally, provide the following input:

First, you're using too many pistols, and the wrong ones. You've picked three pistols that are darned near as different from each other as is possible (with the exception you don't have anything too small, or DAO), and are trying to shoot them all well with minimal experience. I would FIRST focus on mastering the fundamentals with ONE pistol, and, frankly, none of the three you have would be one I'd want to start a new shooter on. The G22 isn't a horrible choice, but it's a much worse "starter GLOCK" than the G17 (or 34, for that matter). Likewise, the 1911 is a GREAT platform, super accurate and easy to shoot well, but is SO easy to shoot well that the short/light trigger can become a crutch. I know, I learned to shoot on a 1911, and when I started having to shoot issued M9s and M11s, it took a lot of getting used to. The PX4 is a mystery to me, don't own one, only shot one once and I won't be going back for a second round.

Were I in your shoes, I'd pick ONE of those pistols, put the others in the safe for a year, and MASTER one pistol. Otherwise it's going to be very difficult to know when thrown rounds are caused by misapplication of fundamentals, versus "glitches" from adjusting to a different trigger/sights/recoil impulse, etc. Without advising you to buy yet another pistol, I'd pick the G22, and buy the softest recoiling ammunition you can find for it. The GLOCK trigger is probably the least forgiving of misuse, so you'll learn the most from shooting it and mastering it. When you can shoot a GLOCK well at 25 yards, pretty much anything else is likely to be a cakewalk.

I'd suggest NOT shooting at 25 yards, until you've mastered some closer-range accuracy-intensive drills. I LOVE the Dot Torture Drill that our late and beloved mentor Todd created. It WILL show you where your issues are. Once you can clean it at 3 yards, try again at 5, then 7. If you insist on shooting longer distances, you're going to have to really discipline yourself, so you should combine that range with small, discrete targets, such as shooting 3x5 cards in "walk back" drills. Don't progress to the next distance until you can consistently put five rounds on the 3x5 at a given range.

There are tons of more fun drills that emphasize speed and gun handling, but those should be shot AFTER you've worked your fundamentals hard.

And, as always, NOTHING beats hands-on instruction with a competent instructor.

Happy to help with any specific questions you might have, and welcome aboard!

[Wendell]

These videos helped me understand my grip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45QhpvY9LZc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck0JRzsU_xY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKzW_Zc1Kk

This helped too, but I can't find it on YouTube; here it is on 'YouKu':

Travis Haley and Ron Avery : Trigger Stripe Drill
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzc5Nzg0ODgw.html

[JohnO]

Hence, my current dilemma is, ONE - how to be able to do tight groups for the 10+ yard targets? Particularly those in 20-yd and 25-yd ranges? I've read about people doing 2- to 4-inch groups at 25-yards; but then, how could they? I can barely see the bullseye (and am already using a small dot Taran Butler competition sight on my Glock), along with the associated wobble (due to muscles and/or breathing). Please see my current groups (taken about last last weekend) below...

What you described above reveals your relative newness and lack of understanding of the principles of marksmanship. (Please do not interpret my previous sentence as an insult. I am just trying to help you understand.) Seeing the target is significantly less important that seeing your sights! Your focus MUST be on perfect sight alignment and managing that alignment through the trigger press. I like to refer people to the Encyclopedia of Bullseye Shooting. There is a wealth of information on that web site. Pay particular close attention to The Army Marksmanship Guide Chapter 2 on Sight Alignment. http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm Do your best to fully understand the two concepts of Parallel & Angular Shift Error. You do not want to get overly concerned (with in reason) about pointing your pistol in a specific spot. However you really want to make sure your sights are perfectly aligned. You can shoot a very good group at distance with minor Parallel Shift Errors. What you can not do is shoot a decent group with Angular Shift Errors.

Take the time to run some numbers with the Brownells Sight Calculator. For your specific pistol (measure the sight radius) calculate the deviation from a perfect shot based upon a error in sight alignment at varying distances.http://www.brownells.com/GunTech/Sight_Correction_Calculator/detail.htm?lid=13093

For example: a 6" miss at 25 yards, the sight misalignment is .047" on a pistol with a 7" sight radius. That same .047" misalignment error would result in a 12" miss at 50 yards or a 2.4" miss at 10 yards. But if you had perfect sight alignment yet the pistol's hold on the target was 3" from center you would be off the mark by 3" at all distances (assuming perfect trajectory).

You will over time get the hang of focusing correctly on your sights and still seeing your intended target (fuzzy) in the background. If you get into the habit of focally shifting back and forth between sights and target your sight alignment will inevitably suffer and Mr. Murphy will see to it that your shot breaks when the sights are not properly aligned.

[rodralig]

I just got back back, and thanks to everyone that had replied and provided insight. It is much appreciated...




The FAST (http://pistol-training.com/drills/the-fast) is a good way of measuring & communicating your 'on-demand' ability.

Awesome! I should try this sometime I get a chance with a private range event (as ranges here don't allow draw from the pistol and rapid fire).


First, you're using too many pistols, and the wrong ones. You've picked three pistols that are darned near as different from each other as is possible (with the exception you don't have anything too small, or DAO), and are trying to shoot them all well with minimal experience. I would FIRST focus on mastering the fundamentals with ONE pistol, and, frankly, none of the three you have would be one I'd want to start a new shooter on. The G22 isn't a horrible choice, but it's a much worse "starter GLOCK" than the G17 (or 34, for that matter). Likewise, the 1911 is a GREAT platform, super accurate and easy to shoot well, but is SO easy to shoot well that the short/light trigger can become a crutch. I know, I learned to shoot on a 1911, and when I started having to shoot issued M9s and M11s, it took a lot of getting used to. The PX4 is a mystery to me, don't own one, only shot one once and I won't be going back for a second round.

Were I in your shoes, I'd pick ONE of those pistols, put the others in the safe for a year, and MASTER one pistol. Otherwise it's going to be very difficult to know when thrown rounds are caused by misapplication of fundamentals, versus "glitches" from adjusting to a different trigger/sights/recoil impulse, etc. Without advising you to buy yet another pistol, I'd pick the G22, and buy the softest recoiling ammunition you can find for it. The GLOCK trigger is probably the least forgiving of misuse, so you'll learn the most from shooting it and mastering it. When you can shoot a GLOCK well at 25 yards, pretty much anything else is likely to be a cakewalk.

To be honest, this is something I realized a few months back. At first I got all those pistols because wanted to have one of each platform (1911, striker and DA/SA). But then, I did realized what I've gotten myself into, such that, the PX4 rarely gets shot (my least favorite). Though I alternate between the 1911 and the G22 - it is still the Glock that I gravitate to shooting more (both LIVE and DRY), and to learning!

As you've said - if I get to master the G22, I practically can shoot anything else... As I've mentioned in the other forums, as well - in spite of people telling me to sell the Glock, or go to a 9mm; I still stick to it. For me, it forces one to be disciplined about fundamentals, a "teaching gun," so to speak.

But, of course, it is a strict teacher - I haven't had any good satisfaction of progress with the Glock (albeit, I can say I'm much better than when I started in May... *LOL*)



I like dot torture (http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture) better than most.


I'd suggest NOT shooting at 25 yards, until you've mastered some closer-range accuracy-intensive drills. I LOVE the Dot Torture Drill that our late and beloved mentor Todd created. It WILL show you where your issues are. Once you can clean it at 3 yards, try again at 5, then 7.

Was actually working on Dot Torture this afternoon. Here are my groups at 3-yd and 5-yrd with the Glock:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161108/66edfa1b1a611208162c83f8263187bd.jpg



If you insist on shooting longer distances, you're going to have to really discipline yourself, so you should combine that range with small, discrete targets, such as shooting 3x5 cards in "walk back" drills. Don't progress to the next distance until you can consistently put five rounds on the 3x5 at a given range.

Nice! I'll see if I can incorporate 3x5 cards with the Dot Torture.



And, as always, NOTHING beats hands-on instruction with a competent instructor.

.... AND that is another challenge - finding a competent instructor. I've been through a few classes here in SoCal, and honestly, it is not worth the $$$ (it's as if as long as one has LE and/or military experience, said person is already an "instructor"). Front Sight has good instruction, but, then, would need to time off from work to head out to Nevada.



Happy to help with any specific questions you might have, and welcome aboard!

Thank you!!!



These videos helped me understand my grip:

Yes, am aware of Bob and Mike's videos... I have a SiRT, and Mike's lessons on grip are what I try to refer to as much as possible. As for Robert Vogel's lesson - still scrutinizing it, ie., he mentions this "inward torque with his hands towards the pistol to add stability," which I still am trying to understand.

Question, though: How hard should I grip the pistol? I've heard/read many different "ways," ie., as gentle as an egg; and one as hard as possible...



What you described above reveals your relative newness and lack of understanding of the principles of marksmanship. (Please do not interpret my previous sentence as an insult. I am just trying to help you understand.) Seeing the target is significantly less important that seeing your sights! Your focus MUST be on perfect sight alignment and managing that alignment through the trigger press. I like to refer people to the Encyclopedia of Bullseye Shooting. There is a wealth of information on that web site. Pay particular close attention to The Army Marksmanship Guide Chapter 2 on Sight Alignment. http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm Do your best to fully understand the two concepts of Parallel & Angular Shift Error. You do not want to get overly concerned (with in reason) about pointing your pistol in a specific spot. However you really want to make sure your sights are perfectly aligned. You can shoot a very good group at distance with minor Parallel Shift Errors. What you can not do is shoot a decent group with Angular Shift Errors.


You will over time get the hang of focusing correctly on your sights and still seeing your intended target (fuzzy) in the background. If you get into the habit of focally shifting back and forth between sights and target your sight alignment will inevitably suffer and Mr. Murphy will see to it that your shot breaks when the sights are not properly aligned.

No offense taken - I'm here to learn...

That said, I may have not explained myself properly. I'm aware of the FRONT sight focus stuff; what I was trying to say is that targets at 25-yards are so far that the size of the bullseye becomes so small that I can't get a precise overlay with a super clear front sight blade. Essentially the entire front sight blade is bigger/wider than the fuzzy target in the background - how could you hit the center? Would that make sense?



Again thank you to ALL for your insights...

[gringop]

That said, I may have not explained myself properly. I'm aware of the FRONT sight focus stuff; what I was trying to say is that targets at 25-yards are so far that the size of the bullseye becomes so small that I can't get a precise overlay with a super clear front sight blade. Essentially the entire front sight blade is bigger/wider than the fuzzy target in the background - how could you hit the center? Would that make sense?
Again thank you to ALL for your insights...

Get rid of the crappy Glock factory sights. I'm partial to Ameriglo Defoors but other sights with a .125 wide front sight are good as well. Look at Dawson's offerings.

No one shoots well with the crappy plastic dovetail fillers that Glock supplies with the guns. Shooting a Glock with factory plastic sights is like a viewing an Ansel Adams photo in a funhouse mirror, a travesty and a crying shame.

Gringop

[HopetonBrown]

Was actually working on Dot Torture this afternoon. Here are my groups at 3-yd and 5-yrd with the Glock:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161108/66edfa1b1a611208162c83f8263187bd.jpg

Why you no shooty SHO and WHO?



Get rid of the crappy Glock factory sights. I'm partial to Ameriglo Defoors but other sights with a .125 wide front sight are good as well. Look at Dawson's offerings.

No one shoots well with the crappy plastic dovetail fillers that Glock supplies with the guns. Shooting a Glock with factory plastic sights is like a viewing an Ansel Adams photo in a funhouse mirror, a travesty and a crying shame.

Gringop

I believe he said he's using the TTI sights.

[psalms144.1]

Rod - that's some pretty nice shooting, less the missing ten for SHO and WHO ;) It looks like you're doing most everything right. So, obvious questions:

Did you not shoot SHO and WHO? If not, why not? I'm assuming you didn't miss the paper cleanly all 10 rounds!

To your original question regarding aiming at discrete targets at longer ranges, you have to find how your sights "hold." It sounds, from your description, that the sights you're using are "drive the dot" - meaning the bullet impacts nearly directly on the front sight "dot" (be it tritium, or FO, or paint). These sights are hard to use at long range on small targets, since, as you've found, they obscure the target completely. There are lots of sight options, the "best" for accuracy work print either to the top edge of the front sight, or, for strictly accuracy work, provide a "six o'clock" hold, where you balance the black on top of the top edge of the front sight.

It looks like your fundamentals are sound (less the grip/regrip issues mentioned above). You might need a different set of sights, or just lots of range time to get to the point where you know where to hold the dot to hit center on the target...

[Eyesquared]

Question, though: How hard should I grip the pistol? I've heard/read many different "ways," ie., as gentle as an egg; and one as hard as possible...

I am far from an expert so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't think "as gentle as an egg" is considered a very credible method anymore. Even top bullseye type shooters don't do that because they too need to control recoil. For a self-defense oriented or action-pistol oriented shooter the grip should at least be firm. I think a reasonable method is to see how hard you can grip the gun without your hands shaking and make adjustments from there.

[Wendell]

...I'm aware of the FRONT sight focus stuff; what I was trying to say is that targets at 25-yards are so far that the size of the bullseye becomes so small that I can't get a precise overlay with a super clear front sight blade. Essentially the entire front sight blade is bigger/wider than the fuzzy target in the background - how could you hit the center? Would that make sense?

Bob Taubert's book Rattenkrieg! talks about this. He's an advocate for a narrower front sight. "Keep the front sight thin, and you're in!"

https://www.amazon.com/Rattenkrieg-Science-Quarters-Battle-Pistol/dp/0977265943

[Peally]

Make Ben Stoeger's books your bible, train at least every other day, and you'll be a baller in no time. Over time it all comes together and you figure it out.

And welcome to the forums!

[rodralig]

Why you no shooty SHO and WHO?




Rod - that's some pretty nice shooting, less the missing ten for SHO and WHO ;) It looks like you're doing most everything right. So, obvious questions:

Did you not shoot SHO and WHO? If not, why not? I'm assuming you didn't miss the paper cleanly all 10 rounds!



Hahahaha! I guess people seen that...

Well, simple reason, ever since day #1 into the firearms world, always had practice a two-hand shot. Never tried practicing either Strong Hand or Weak Hand only.

Simple reason - thinking to master two-hands first before going to something more complicated...




Make Ben Stoeger's books your bible, train at least every other day, and you'll be a baller in no time. Over time it all comes together and you figure it out.

And welcome to the forums!

Thank you!

I actually have Ben's book on practical shooting. Have always had practiced the White Wall Drill, both timed (par 2.0) and untimed.

Although, my dry practice doesn't seem to be transferring to my live fire.

I've reset again my practice - making it more structured by using his New Shooter recipe for a month...



Bob Taubert's book Rattenkrieg! talks about this. He's an advocate for a narrower front sight. "Keep the front sight thin, and you're in!"

https://www.amazon.com/Rattenkrieg-Science-Quarters-Battle-Pistol/dp/0977265943

Let me check this out! Thanks!




To your original question regarding aiming at discrete targets at longer ranges, you have to find how your sights "hold." It sounds, from your description, that the sights you're using are "drive the dot" - meaning the bullet impacts nearly directly on the front sight "dot" (be it tritium, or FO, or paint). These sights are hard to use at long range on small targets, since, as you've found, they obscure the target completely. There are lots of sight options, the "best" for accuracy work print either to the top edge of the front sight, or, for strictly accuracy work, provide a "six o'clock" hold, where you balance the black on top of the top edge of the front sight.



Insightful! Let me try to reflect on this in my next range session. Thanks!




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[HopetonBrown]

Hahahaha! I guess people seen that...

Well, simple reason, ever since day #1 into the firearms world, always had practice a two-hand shot. Never tried practicing either Strong Hand or Weak Hand only.

Simple reason - thinking to master two-hands first before going to something more complicated.

That's like wanting to be a champion body builder but skipping leg day.

Mastering pistol shooting can take a lifetime. Start SHO/WHO now. It's right in front of you! IDPA/USPSA does have a good amount of SHO/WHO shooting.

I think you didn't want to screw up your pretty target. Practice what you're not good at. That's why you see most people at your local range shooting freestyle at 7 yards.

[OnionsAndDragons]

That's like wanting to be a champion body builder but skipping leg day.

Mastering pistol shooting can take a lifetime. Start SHO/WHO now. It's right in front of you! IDPA/USPSA does have a good amount of SHO/WHO shooting.

I think you didn't want to screw up your pretty target. Practice what you're not good at. That's why you see most people at your local range shooting freestyle at 7 yards.

This. :)

Also, in regards to your grip and control for distance shooting try this every range session:

Work one or two magazines tuning your grip and trigger press with the only goal of not moving the gun during the shot. Don't even use a target if you can see your sights clearly against the berm or backstop. If you cannot, just put up a big blank sheet of paper. Don't worry about aiming, just make the gun still while breaking your shots.

As to the Vogel technique of torquing your grip into the gun... Try to make your elbows point a little more outward as opposed to the more natural downward pointing. Get your grip on and then tighten up and push your elbows out a few degrees until you feel your shoulders and forearms tension slightly. This should give you a bit more leverage into the gun AND set your elbows up to act as natural shock absorbers during recoil. It's more than just the bit of grip advantage that the position gives, the whole is greater than the sum of parts IME.

Don't beat yourself up, though. Pretty much everyone sucks WAAAAAAAY worse the first few times they compete than they expect to. It's normal. Don't use your competition results as any sort of measurement right now. Just use it to keep from falling into a comfortable spot of complacency.

[rodralig]

Mastering pistol shooting can take a lifetime. Start SHO/WHO now. It's right in front of you! IDPA/USPSA does have a good amount of SHO/WHO shooting.

I guess you are right. Sooner or later - I will have to be doing SHO/WHO only, anyways


I think you didn't want to screw up your pretty target.

Well, that TOO...


That's why you see most people at your local range shooting freestyle at 7 yards.

What do you mean by freestyle...?



This. :)

Also, in regards to your grip and control for distance shooting try this every range session:

Work one or two magazines tuning your grip and trigger press with the only goal of not moving the gun during the shot. Don't even use a target if you can see your sights clearly against the berm or backstop. If you cannot, just put up a big blank sheet of paper. Don't worry about aiming, just make the gun still while breaking your shots.

I practice this using the One Hole Drill at 3-yd and at 5-yd on a blank piece of paper. Can do it for about 5-rounds, then it gets crazy from there...

For now, I think I'll work on the Dot Torture at 7-yds, while including SHO/WHO parts.

Then Adam Painchaud's Drill with the Police Training Drill/Target (the one that has LOTS of colored circles in a 4x4).

Don't beat yourself up, though. Pretty much everyone sucks WAAAAAAAY worse the first few times they compete than they expect to. It's normal. Don't use your competition results as any sort of measurement right now. Just use it to keep from falling into a comfortable spot of complacency.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

I guess I just feel bad that in spite of practicing - I wasn't able to perform to my expectations. Long times are fine; but had lots of misses...



To your original question regarding aiming at discrete targets at longer ranges, you have to find how your sights "hold." It sounds, from your description, that the sights you're using are "drive the dot" - meaning the bullet impacts nearly directly on the front sight "dot" (be it tritium, or FO, or paint). These sights are hard to use at long range on small targets, since, as you've found, they obscure the target completely. There are lots of sight options, the "best" for accuracy work print either to the top edge of the front sight, or, for strictly accuracy work, provide a "six o'clock" hold, where you balance the black on top of the top edge of the front sight.


I guess that [b]SUMS it up... Because of an FO sight, it is actually challenging to focus on the center of the top blade of the front sight with a center mass hold; as such, for longer distances, I use, as you've said "drive the dot."

Hhhhhmmm...

So, in reality, for an average/intermediate shooter - how tight a group at 25-yards can one expect from a stock pistol (not "tuned" for bullseye shooting)...?



That said - as I continue my practice... A few questions comes to mind (as there were mentions that I use "too much" guns):

[i]How would it work that my practice/training gun uses a 40S&W, while a competition gun would be in 9mm...? They would be the same platform, ie., both Glocks...

Thanks in advanced!





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