Guns with USP/FNX style decocker

[Wisc]

Hi I'm looking into getting my next pistol. Started with my eye on a Beretta 92 since I want the da/sa trigger in a near full sized pistol but I wasn't a huge fan of the saftey/decocker. Then I discovered the decockers on the USP and FNX but I want to be sure I know all my options. Any other guns with a similar decocker?

[Le Français]

The CZ P07 and P09 come to mind.

[GardoneVT]

Hi I'm looking into getting my next pistol. Started with my eye on a Beretta 92 since I want the da/sa trigger in a near full sized pistol but I wasn't a huge fan of the saftey/decocker. Then I discovered the decockers on the USP and FNX but I want to be sure I know all my options. Any other guns with a similar decocker?

Define "not a huge fan".

[olstyn]

Conceptually similar, in that it doesn't stick out to snag on things, but different location (top of the slide rather than rear) - Walther P99.

[s0nspark]

Keep in mind the CZ P-07/P-09 is safety OR decocker - not both. To my knowledge, HK and FN are the only ones who offer a combined safety/decocker lever that allows you to put the gun on safe without decocking.

BTW, I am a big fan of the CZ P-07... especially with Cajun Gun Works upgrades. A lot of bang for the buck there and mine have run flawless.

[JTQ]

I don't know if you've used them before, and this may be a problem only for those used to 1911's that ride the thumb safety/decocker, but Hilton Yam ran into a problem of decocking the pistol while shooting and even getting the trigger to "lock up".

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/95530-battle-plastic-45-s-review-hilton-yam.html


The HK45 also has a few other issues of note. The Variant 1 decock/safety was often pushed down to the decock position (especially when shooting one handed), and required conscious effort not to decock the gun. If I wasn't careful, I could lock up the trigger trying to decock the hammer as I was pressing the trigger.

[Wisc]

@gardoneVT by not a huge fan I meant I'd like to spend a decent amount of time practicing da pulls and to do that with the Beretta would require putting on and removing the saftey where the USP lever returns to fire position after decocking.
Sounds like I should look into the p99. I looked at some czs but I think they're a lot like the Beretta. Thanks for the ideas!

[jeep45238]

Get a G model 92 - pops back up after activation.

[Sero Sed Serio]

@gardoneVT by not a huge fan I meant I'd like to spend a decent amount of time practicing da pulls and to do that with the Beretta would require putting on and removing the saftey where the USP lever returns to fire position after decocking.
Sounds like I should look into the p99. I looked at some czs but I think they're a lot like the Beretta. Thanks for the ideas!

If you like the Beretta but for the safety, you can always get a decocker-only G model. The 92G-SD is a bit pricey, but has everything that I'd want in a 92. I saw a standard 92G (no brigadier slide, no night sights) in the wild a month or so ago in the mid-5s.

I believe that the HK45 and 45c have a combination safety/decocker in the same location (as opposed to the P30/P2000 button-type decocker by the hammer).

Finally, unless you're just trying to keep commonality of decocker location to match a gun you already have, there are other great DA/SA options with the decockers in different locations--the SIG with its decocker forward of the slide stop lever, the above-mentioned Walther, the P30/P2000 style, etc.--that will open up a lot of options.

[Le Français]

I looked at some czs but I think they're a lot like the Beretta.

The CZs I mentioned are dissimilar to the 92FS safety & decocker in that the CZ control lever is on the frame rather than on the slide (making it easier to manipulate with the thumb of the firing hand). Also, the CZ decocker does spring back to the original position after it is released, unlike the 92FS lever which stays on safe.

[JTQ]

If all you want is just a decocker, there is always the SIG family of guns.

[Wisc]

Seems like I should have been much more specific when I said a saftey/decocker like the FNX or USP. I want to easily switch to DA without applying the safety (why I counted out the 92) and I'm one of the weird few people who like to have a safety on their DA pistol (why I counted out the SIGs). Specifically I like that the FNX and USP allow you to apply the safety in either DA or SA. Maybe I'm on a wild goose chase, but I was curious if anything else matched up well with the function of the USP and FNX.

[ReverendMeat]

Well, there's always the Taurus PT92...

[olstyn]

Seems like I should have been much more specific when I said a saftey/decocker like the FNX or USP. I want to easily switch to DA without applying the safety (why I counted out the 92) and I'm one of the weird few people who like to have a safety on their DA pistol (why I counted out the SIGs). Specifically I like that the FNX and USP allow you to apply the safety in either DA or SA. Maybe I'm on a wild goose chase, but I was curious if anything else matched up well with the function of the USP and FNX.

In that case, the Walther is out - it's decocker only; no manual safety except on a weird variant they did a small run of for some agency somewhere. Highly unlikely to find one of those for sale.

[Jim Watson]

Well, there's always the Taurus PT92...

It does have the advantage that, unlike the USP, it is down to fire, up for safe, WAY up to decock.

As early as the NRA convention when the USP was first shown to the general public, I identified the possibility of a V1 USP going beyond fire WAY down to decock inadvertently if you got excited and hit the lever too hard. The HK rep told me I was nuts. In a polite manner, of course. Ray Ordorica was the only gunzine writer I ever saw to bring up the possibility.

[45dotACP]

I've always toyed with the idea of Taurus's only halfway decent gun...and then I remembered the safety on a Beretta really isn't THAT big of a deal to me.

OP, I think you're splitting hairs. Or you're not, in which case, just buy a USP or FNX. Sounds like you've narrowed it down to two.

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[Smaug]

Check out the HK P30S; the decocker and safety are separate controls.

If you haven't already I'd highly recommend you try handling/shooting a 92fs to see if flipping the safety off after decocking is that big of a deal to you.

[jeep45238]

Check out the HK P30S; the decocker and safety are separate controls.

If you haven't already I'd highly recommend you try handling/shooting a 92fs to see if flipping the safety off after decocking is that big of a deal to you.


http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=15317

Try that if you already have the 92

[GardoneVT]

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=15317

Try that if you already have the 92

No disrespect to the articles author, but the way he explains it can be misleading for those unaccustomed to the 92. It's not quite like flipping a 1911s lever.

For clarification; the 92F/FS uses a spring loaded safety/ decocker. One need only provide moderate leverage on the lever to flip it off; and Langdon's way to do this is to exert pressure on the safety using the inside of the shooting hand thumb.

Take a 92 and engage the safety. The shooting hand thumb is then parked behind the safety - at which point the shooter should attempt to swipe their thumb toward the slide stop . The inside of the thumb will trip the safety and disengage it.

Sounds like a violation of physics, but it works. :D

[TiroFijo]

It does have the advantage that, unlike the USP, it is down to fire, up for safe, WAY up to decock.

As early as the NRA convention when the USP was first shown to the general public, I identified the possibility of a V1 USP going beyond fire WAY down to decock inadvertently if you got excited and hit the lever too hard. The HK rep told me I was nuts. In a polite manner, of course. Ray Ordorica was the only gunzine writer I ever saw to bring up the possibility.

The Taurus PT 92 is: up safe, middle fire, way bottom decock.

[Jim Watson]

Well, darn. Where did I get that idea?

[HopetonBrown]

As early as the NRA convention when the USP was first shown to the general public, I identified the possibility of a V1 USP going beyond fire WAY down to decock inadvertently if you got excited and hit the lever too hard. The HK rep told me I was nuts. In a polite manner, of course. Ray Ordorica was the only gunzine writer I ever saw to bring up the possibility.

Louis Awerbuck said he did it when HK had a demo at Gunsite for the USP, sending his first round into the dirt in front of an audience.

[Jim Watson]

How did he get it to fire off the decocker? Or do you mean that he inadvertently decocked it and then yanked the unexpected DA?

I owned a USP .45 and with the size of the gun (large) and the size of my hand (small), it was not a problem in practice, but that was just because I could not bring as much force to bear on the lever as Ordorica and Awerbuck. I should'a got a USP 9 in V9. No tricks in the lever and a butt I could grasp.

[Shoresy]

No disrespect to the articles author, but the way he explains it can be misleading for those unaccustomed to the 92. It's not quite like flipping a 1911s lever.

For clarification; the 92F/FS uses a spring loaded safety/ decocker. One need only provide moderate leverage on the lever to flip it off; and Langdon's way to do this is to exert pressure on the safety using the inside of the shooting hand thumb.

Take a 92 and engage the safety. The shooting hand thumb is then parked behind the safety - at which point the shooter should attempt to swipe their thumb toward the slide stop . The inside of the thumb will trip the safety and disengage it.

Sounds like a violation of physics, but it works. :D

That's how I've always run mine. It's particularly useful as an assurance that the safety is disengaged after a malfunction drill - as the pistol comes into the line of sight and the support had resumes its position, the shooting thumb (held vertically) sweeps forward across where the safety is, mitigating an accidental engagement. If the safety was engaged you may be shooting from DA, but you're shooting...

[HopetonBrown]

How did he get it to fire off the decocker? Or do you mean that he inadvertently decocked it and then yanked the unexpected DA?

Yeah, he accidentally decocked when he just meant to swipe the safety. He wasn't afraid of sharing an embarrassing story if it meant learning could occur.

[RJ]

Yeah, he accidentally decocked when he just meant to swipe the safety. He wasn't afraid of sharing an embarrassing story if it meant learning could occur.

I'd like to ask a question, so bear with me.

I've only shot SFA guns. I recently bought a LEM V1, so I'm slowly edging into the hammer world.

From what I understand, ya'll are saying someone with considerable experience ND'd into the dirt with a HK USP DA/SA pistol? Would you mind (at the horsey-duckey level) explaining how, exactly, that happens with all those weird safety, decocker or whatever levers?

[45dotACP]

At the most basic level I guess I'd say "Shit Happens"

From what I understand of the story, it seems like talking with a loaded gun in hand probably isn't a great call....some people have nervous tics when speaking publicly, like trigger checking...thinking the gun is safe sometimes predisposes someone to trigger check because if your gun is on safe, there's no way it'll fire.

The notion that no safety device is infallible is not one of the big gun safety rules AFAIK, but it ought to be.

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[JAD]

I don't think Mr. Awerbuck had an accidental discharge. I think the trigger pull was longer and heavier than he expected and that caused his shot to go a lot low of the target.

[Bergeron]

I owned and shot a USP9f in the early aughts. While I originally intended to use it cocked-and-locked, I quickly came to appreciate it uncocked and on-safe.

I understand that Mr. Awerbuck's unintentional de-cocking experience was something that multiple people have had occur to them.

I'm curious, of those who have had the unintentional decocking occur, did this tend to happen on the draw or during shooting?

Most of my shooting then was two-handed and I found that the safety was trapped between my off-hand palm and strong hand thumb. I didn't experience this problem, but I would draw from hammer down, and I may not have shot it enough to have it happen to me.

I loved the USP, but I do note that when they had the chance, HK moved away from the down-past-safe decocking position.

[GJM]

I don't think Mr. Awerbuck had an accidental discharge. I think the trigger pull was longer and heavier than he expected and that caused his shot to go a lot low of the target.

I would bet 10 PF dollars that this is what happened. Would bet 5 PF floats that Louis was not a big DA/SA guy.


I owned and shot a USP9f in the early aughts. While I originally intended to use it cocked-and-locked, I quickly came to appreciate it uncocked and on-safe.

I understand that Mr. Awerbuck's unintentional de-cocking experience was something that multiple people have had occur to them.

I'm curious, of those who have had the unintentional decocking occur, did this tend to happen on the draw or during shooting?

Most of my shooting then was two-handed and I found that the safety was trapped between my off-hand palm and strong hand thumb. I didn't experience this problem, but I would draw from hammer down, and I may not have shot it enough to have it happen to me.

I loved the USP, but I do note that when they had the chance, HK moved away from the down-past-safe decocking position.

They didn't move away from it with the HK45 and 45C, and the smaller grip made it more likely to happen then on the USP, especially for a 1911 shooter used to riding the thumb safety. DA inadvertently was not the big problem -- the big problem was depressing the thumb safety far enough towards decock, that the hammer stayed in between, and the pistol would not fire. I waited several years for a V9 plate because of this problem, and would not carry the HK45 or 45C untill I got that plate. LEM not an option then.

[HopetonBrown]

I don't think Mr. Awerbuck had an accidental discharge. I think the trigger pull was longer and heavier than he expected and that caused his shot to go a lot low of the target.

You're correct, Louis did not have an ND/AD. He just thought he was going to have a SA trigger but he swept the safety off too hard and decocked the gun to DA, so he jerked the shot, sending a round at the base of the target. He said it was an HK press event for the debut of the USP, so there were a lot of industry big wigs and he was nervous. They picked him to fire the first round, as he was chief rangemaster.


Would bet 5 PF floats that Louis was not a big DA/SA guy.


Yeah, Gunsite in the early '90s, DA/SA was probably illegal.

[GJM]

Actually, Louis was following Col. Cooper's advice literally -- fire the first DA shot into the dirt to get to SA.

It was distressing to the powers to be when a bike cop from SoCal won our 250 shootoff with a Beretta 92.

[Bergeron]

I would bet 10 PF dollars that this is what happened. Would bet 5 PF floats that Louis was not a big DA/SA guy.



They didn't move away from it with the HK45 and 45C, and the smaller grip made it more likely to happen then on the USP, especially for a 1911 shooter used to riding the thumb safety. DA inadvertently was not the big problem -- the big problem was depressing the thumb safety far enough towards decock, that the hammer stayed in between, and the pistol would not fire. I waited several years for a V9 plate because of this problem, and would not carry the HK45 or 45C untill I got that plate. LEM not an option then.

Yes, if I remember correctly, I've read multiple posts of yours that discuss this problem with the decocking feature of the USP. As a previous USP user, I really appreciate all of the USP information and experience that you've shared.

I was surprised that the HK45/45c retained the down-to-decock; I've only handled and not shot them. I broke the firing pin on my USP (V1) through dry fire, but never ran into the de-cock feature. I read about it enough to be wary, though. I went to 1911s from the USP, and I wonder how that influenced my grip.

I need to find a LEM to rent.

[GJM]

My issue with the USP is more the thumb safety function than the decocker. I place the base of my strong thumb over my support thumb, and since I don't ride the thumb safety on the USP, I haven't inadvertently decocked the USP. With the thumb safety, my optimal draw grip does not reliably deactivate the thumb safety, so I went to variant 3, making the lever a decocker only, and deleted the thumb safety function.

[Bergeron]

Understood, thank you.