Advice for first hand gun

[Langhrone]

Howdy, all.

Been lurking here a while after spending time at other forums...like a breath of fresh air. The knowledge, insight, and blunt opinions found here are very much appreciated by a casual shooter like me.

I've a friend who is not a gun person interested in buying a handgun to keep at her home. We've made two range trips. She enjoyed it, and hasn't changed her mind. Upcoming basic handgun class so she can receive real training.

She's started shopping a little, and recently asked me about the Sig P250. I know the choice in pistol has gotta be hers, but I'd like to see it be a good one!

It's not likely she'll shoot the thing more than 500-600/year. I've read enough to know the recommendations around here will probably be M&P, HK, Glock. Since the pistol won't be "run hard" is there any reason not to open up the field to include PX4, Classic Sig, SA XD, Ruger SR9, etc just to give her more choices? Or would it be best to stick with the first three?

I guess I'm wondering if these "other" pistols would prove reliable and durable enough considering they won't be shot tens of thousands of times.

thanks,
Langhrone

[Nephrology]

No. The SIG P250 is an abomination of a pistol and was found so unreliable as to be humiliatingly rejected by not one but two separate law enforcement agencies - one domestic and the other foreign.

As for the others, what is the point?

I bet all of the guns you listed could go 10k rounds. The issues with them are more ergonomic than quality control related (with perhaps the exception of the classic SIGs manufactured these days).

The gun she will end up in will probably be black, heavy (compared to most other mundane objects) and chambered in 9mm. Does it really matter to her whether it says Glock or Springfield on the side? Guide her toward the gun that has been proven over over again, not the one that will make the redneck behind the counter at your local gun store a bigger sale.

[iakdrago]

Imo opinion what's the advantage in buying something that is more prone to breaking when ur life might deppend on it. What kind of benefit do u get out of it?

[LOKNLOD]

Reliability and durability are connected, but not interchangeable. It may be true that she will never reach the limits of durability for any of the commonly available choices on the market, but the wrong choice could prove to be unreliable at a relatively low round count. It's not unheard of to have a problem with one of the "prime" choices, but by getting an established gun with good reputation among knowledgable folks, you're hedging your bets in favor of getting a reliable, durable, and very shootable pistol.

[TGS]

First off, a classic West German SIG should be a primary choice, not a tertiary one. The classic SIGs are awesome weapons, I loved my SIG P239 and it would make an excellent weapon for someone with small hands. Make sure her hand strength can manipulate the trigger of whatever she buys. It's one thing when grown men complain they can't pull a DA trigger without disturbing the sight picture....it's another case when women with small hands can't even pull the trigger. People with small hands are most definitely physiologically predisposed to sucking with DA triggers. I know some small girls that are fine with them, and I also know some girls who have to use two fingers to pull a DA trigger.

I think it'd be fine to open up the options of the Beretta PX4 and Ruger SR9 if she isn't going to run them hard. I'd rather someone have a gun they want to practice with (option A), rather than a gun they don't like and don't practice with (Option B)...even if option A won't run a 50,000 endurance test like option B will. If option A still functions well enough for the task at hand, I don't see a problem with it. However, I would definitely try and steer her away from the XD. The grip safety is only asking for trouble...if it fails, the slide is locked shut on a chambered round. This is a problem. Also, grip safeties in general aren't advisable for self-defense situations since humans have a habit of not engaging it during one-handed shooting. There's plenty of informed shooters who will pin the grip safety on their 1911, for instance.

As to the PX4, you may want to do some research on it. Except for how slick the grip is and the clusterfuq decocker/safety arrangement, I was pretty impressed with one that I've put a few hundred rounds through. We never ran it hard and dirty though, it was cleaned after every range session of a few hundred rounds. No reliability problems whatsoever, however the PX4 has already established a reputation with the law enforcement circle as being unreliable. There was a member either here or on HKPRO that is a police officer on a medium sized department in Rhode Island(like 300-500 sworn officers IIRC). I believe he reported that half of the PX4's in his department were unserviceable. Something to look into...Either case, she's not going to be carrying a PX4. It's a pretty big gun, it'd have to be strictly for home defense.

You may also want to look into the S&W SD9. I haven't read anything on it, but I think it's suppose to be in the M&P family(good) and not the S&W Sigma family(bad). Again, I don't know too much, so it's something to look into.

EDIT: ToddG has some "fun" (http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/77367-p30-vs-px4-pictures-2.html#post808304) experience with the PX4.

[JodyH]

The Kahr K9 is an excellent option for women. The grip is slim, the trigger is light and smooth, the manual of arms is simple, the all stainless weight minimizes recoil and they have proven to be reliable, durable guns.
Kahr's polymer offerings can be hit or miss, but their steel guns are solid performers.

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[theblacknight]

If she plans on keeping it at home, g19. If she wants to carry, g19.

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[Langhrone]

All, thanks for the replies.

LOKNLOD, I'm with you. I'd like to see her with a M&P9 FS or a gen4 G19 of the the latest manufacture. But until she flat out asks for my opinion on it, all I'm gonna do is steer her away from the P250s and sigmas and such.

TGS, thanks for the informative response. Point well taken about the DA trigger. One of the pistols we rented last time out was the PX4. She really liked shooting it, but when I explained that the she would have to go thru that long DA pull first in a serious situation she was less thrilled. She could just reach the DA trigger, but she did really like it. The Beretta may be out anyway. Grip safety on the XD being a negative, I hadn't considered...I will now. I think I'd feel better seeing her get the M&P over the SD series. She has a budget, but can afford the M&P. If we can rent a P239, and she likes it, I'd like more opinions on the new manufacture Classic pistols, but really don't want to open that can of worms just yet. Seems lots of people have some strong opinions on the subject.

JodyH, I've thought about the K9 for myself. We were looking at pistols on the net the other week, and she liked the looks of it. Haven't found one to rent yet. How's yours doing? Your thread on it hasn't been updated in while.

I think TGS touched on what I was wondering. Can brand X pistol be as reliable overall for 4 or 5K rounds as one of the first tier pistols can be for 40K rounds?

Langhrone

[JDM]

I guess if she's never gonna shoot the thing, then a Ruger SR9 with an M6x is just about ideal.

Cheap. SFA. Safety. Hi Cap. Easy to "point and click" lithium battery shelf
Life. Common.

Oh, and what about an S&W SD9?

[JodyH]

My K9 has been flawless.
Hit the range yesterday for 125 rounds.

As to the slow updates.
I broke my left elbow Labor Day and am just now getting back to 75% on my shooting. Around 150 rounds is still my max range session.

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[JHC]

Is a revolver out of the question?

[JeffJ]

I'll bite- if she's going to keep it at home, how about a 20ga semi-auto?

[JConn]

Just a thought. As a new shooter, any potential issues with a new firearm that she has spent a lot of money on could really turn her off to training/future purchases. Buy once cry once. If she buys a quality/top manufacturer firearm, chances are she won't regret it regardless of round count.

[Langhrone]

JodyH, broken elbow sounds more than a little painful. Here's to a quick and complete recovery.

JHC, that was my first thought. Simple manual of arms, and I don't think she'd have to put as many rounds through it to prove it reliable. She shot my nicely worn in K frame with target 38spls, and she really didn't dig it. Maybe with some proper instruction she'd change her mind.

JeffJ, I don't think she'd get nearly as much practice with a shotgun.

BOM, M6x is a RDS or a laser?

JConn, good point. A bad experience with a SW auto loader back in the early 80's turned me into a revolver only guy for a long time. Like I said, I'm gonna steer her toward the M&P and Glock. If she doesn't bite...You know, think as soon as this thread winds up I'll have read it. She's a smart woman, and will get more out of this than just listening to me and bubba at the gun shops.

Langhrone

[ToddG]

I took two relatively new shooters to the range this past weekend because they decided to get a gun for home defense. Without going into a lot of details, they had made the decision to buy one gun and keep it in the home. They both had a small amount of skeet and bird hunting shotgun experience, but that was it.

At the end of two hours, they'd both happily settled on a shotgun. Why? One of the first questions I asked them was, "Be honest, are you going to take the time to practice every month and take a class every year or two?" They said no. They want to buy it and have it work without having to work at it. We discussed that they were opting for the 60% solution rather than the 90% solution, and that was the better choice for them because they simply don't have the time or interest to make the 90%.

The shotgun was easy to hit with. We used reduced recoil slugs (slugs are the only ammo allowed on that range) and they could both get the gun up on target and fire two rounds into the 8" circle of a Q-PT at 7yd in reasonably fast time. We didn't talk about sights or trigger manipulation. We talked about getting the shotgun mounted properly, racking the action properly, and seeing the point they wanted to hit across the top of the gun. BOOM-BOOM very dead paper.

The wife, who is in her 50's, had absolutely no problem or discomfort after shooting slugs. Now, they didn't shoot 50rd each, either, but she shot enough to become comfortable with getting the gun, chambering a round, and firing multiple rounds in succession.

In contrast, with the same amount of time and effort, neither of them was nearly as accurate, fast, or comfortable with any centerfire handgun.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'm a big fan of rent/borrow. I was sold on trying to convince my lady friend into a P30. TCinVA happily lent one for an afternoon and I was sold. But she wasn't. We went through every pistol I own, and several that belong to shooting buddies, about 20 in all. Finally, she made her decision, and that is what we bought. And she did not settle for something she was only lukewarm to. And she is willing to put forth the time and effort to improve, and maintain a level of proficiency.

There have been lots of suggestions as to particulars in this thread, and most are decent enough starting points, but I would really attempt to try before the buy as much as possible. And shop around. "Lower cost" pistols such as the Ruger SR guns, are not much cheaper than a Glock or M&P if you are willing to put forth the effort to find the right deal. If I recall correctly, I paid about $380 for my lady friend's M&P. I didn't find that deal in one evening of Google searches, but after several weeks, and several e-mails and phone calls.

The M6X is a weapon mounted light/visible laser combo. Not the top of my list for accessories. Unless they have made some major structural improvements, I don't trust them to not break, even under routine use.

[JeffJ]

JeffJ, I don't think she'd get nearly as much practice with a shotgun.


That's kinda the whole point though. If she wants a gun at home for self defense purposes, a long gun is the way to go. Everybody on this forum is a "pistol guy" but I doubt that any of us would choose a pistol over a long gun if we know that we're going to need it - long guns are easier to shoot well with a lot less practice. The only thing that a pistol has going for it is that its small enough to carry around with you all the time. If she isn't going to carry it, then why bother.

I'm not saying to steer her away from pistols. But unless she's decided to carry outside the home, the pistol needs to be her second gun purchase.

Based on your OP I think of the situation like this:
"I want to be able to defend myself, and I think a gun is the way to do it. I'm not looking for a new hobby or planning on becoming an avid shooter, I just want to know that if someone comes into my home wishing me harm that I'll stand a fighting chance of coming out on top of that situation." To me, and I could be reading it wrong, you would be remiss to not expose her to a either a shotgun or rifle. That 500-600 rounds a year worth of pistol ammo (must of the folks on this forum shoot at least that much a month) that she plans on shooting will be much less effective than 100 rounds a year of shotgun ammo.

I'd suggest something along the lines of getting her set up with a decent HD shotgun and little range time - Then, taking a class, trying rental guns and really deciding if a pistol is something that she wants - hopefully it will be and you'll have introduced a new pistol shooter, but if not - I'd feel much more comfortable with her having a long gun if she actually has to use it.

[theblacknight]

http://f2sconsulting.com/What_pistol_should_I_buy.html

[JHC]

M&P FS or Compact in 9mm has got to be about optimal for available handguns considering prices also. The small grip option being such an advantage.

[BWT]

...Hate to say it but there's a reason Sean M's a SME.

I would say, take her out and let her handle guns, let her figure out which one she likes to handle, and she begins to feel okay doing simple things like, turning and off the safety (if it has one), releasing the magazine, and manipulating the action.

I'd say, tell her to pick 3-5 guns she likes, handle everything end to end, revolvers, glocks, sigs, M&P's, etc, etc. then... I'd say let her shoot them.

Boy that Airweight J-Frame is nice, but... reload it. Shoot that the stature/physiology of a small woman when firing .357 magnum loads or .38 SPL.

I'd say let her decide.

I'd probably look at 9mm, polymer, striker fired option. Walther PPQ seems to be impressing alot of people, concealable, and easy to use.

I'd say, search together.

[agent-smith]

Depending on budget, don't overlook the Browning Hi-Power.

*Dons flame suit*

[Nephrology]

Depending on budget, don't overlook the Browning Hi-Power.

*Dons flame suit*

Honestly, as much as I try to be open minded, the BHP really doesn't do it for me.

Thoroughly mediocre trigger, sub-par magazine capacity, heavy, balances poorly in my hand...

1911s I understand even if I won't throw down the dough for a good, solid carry worthy 1911.

Hi powers, though... just don't do it for me.

[Langhrone]

agent-smith, 25-30 years ago...hell yeah. Sexy damned pistol, especially in the hands of a woman. ;)

BWT, that's the plan. Just don't want her falling for a Hipoint or whatever. I didn't offer to let shoot my 442...might have ended the range session.

JeffJ, insightful post. You summed up the situation well. To you, Todd, and Sean, thank you very much for the responses. You have me re-thinking my own HD situation a little bit. I'm sending her a link to this thread tonite. We'll see what she thinks about shooting the 870 next time out.

thanks, again.
Langhrone