HK45 - Need advice please

[jmjames]

Hello -

I'm new to the forum, but having lurked around a bit, this looks like a good collection of folks who can provide some advice based on real world experience and not devolve into a flamewar...

I bought my first pistol (XD 40, service model) in the spring, and while I've enjoyed it, I don't feel that it is the right pistol for me. The trigger doesn't feel right, it's a bit chunky in the grip. I've also picked up a used, bargain bin 1911 and done a pile of work on it, and while I love shooting it, and I shoot it well I think for my experience level, it just is not reliable enough for me to trust my life or my family's life on it (but hey, I've reduced the stovepipes from "once or twice per mag" to "once or twice per box of ammo"... and the failures to return to battery seem to be gone... only took me $100 worth of ammo to work the kinks out...). I get the feeling that I'd need to sell my car to get a 1911 that I could count on.

Having spent a lot of time looking at different guns, researching, etc., I am pretty sold on the HK45 or the HK45C, but I'd really appreciate some advice from folks who know a lot more than me.

Here are my needs:

* I am looking for a "one gun" to live with. I'm selling the XD 40, without a doubt, to help fund this new purchase. I may hold onto the 1911 because I do really enjoy shooting it, despite its annoyances.

* I need to be able to concealed carry.

* I like going to the range, a lot. I go once a week lately and shoot 100 rounds or so per trip. I want to become a good pistol shooter, primarily practical, but also for sport.

* I don't want to be buying another pistol any time soon. The XD 40 and 1911 were good purchases to get my feet wet, I've learned a lot about what I like and don't like in a pistol, and now I feel like I can make a much better decision that will last me a long time.

So, here are my questions, and please keep in mind that I am pretty new to pistols, have never concealed carried (my class is in mid-December):

* Is the extra size of the HK45 compared to the HK45C going to significantly impact my ability to carry concealed? I'm 5'10", 225 lbs., that's almost all muscle (not bragging, just trying to give an idea of my build). My XD or a 1911, when tucked into my waistband inside the pants, seems to mostly disappear, especially since I exclusively wear bigger shirts untucked anyways, but they aren't super comfortable. This is just me sitting at home experimenting without a holster to get an idea of positioning. The HK45 feels a bit better in my hand (I'd be filing the finger grooves off, they clearly are trying to put my hand a bit too low on the grip), but the 45C still feels really good... pinky is *almost* cramped, and I'd prefer for it to fill the bottom on my hand, but that's because I'm used to the XD and the 1911. I am looking to get the 10 round mags and build up the floorplate so that they meet the grip in the rear to provide the extra length I want. That would be a fun project. :)

* Will the shorter barrel really impact accuracy, speed of aiming, etc. that much? What about recoil of the 45C compared to the 45?

* Triggers... I feel comfortable with the standard DA/SA trigger with decocker and safety since that's what the 1911 has. I never felt that the XD had adequate safety, the pull is light (albeit insanely long), it just seems like a good way to become a cautionary tale on a YouTube video. I know that ToddG is really happy with the DAO LEM trigger. Forgive my ignorance, and I'm not looking to start a flamewar here, but what is the advantage of the DAO LEM trigger over the standard DA/SA trigger? Does DA/SA still make sense given my inexperience? For the record, I have zero problem with doing a trigger change later as my needs and experience change, I just want to know what I should get up front.

* Sights... the super illuminovas are neat in terms of the glow, but I'd imagine that they'd be useless after concealed carry all day or sitting in my nightstand gun safe. Is it a safe bet to go with the Heine QWIK Straight Eight's for this gun? Is there something else I should be considering instead?

* Finally... if you purchased either one, did you regret your purchase? Why or why not? If you got one size but wished you had gotten the other, again, why or why not?

I'm not super flush with cash, so I really want to make the most informed choice possible, and this seems like the best place to get quality information.

Thanks in advance!

J.Ja

[LittleLebowski]

You keep on mentioning budget. I'd go 9mm; specifically a P30. Shoot more, train more, spend less.

[agent-smith]

You keep on mentioning budget. I'd go 9mm; specifically a P30. Shoot more, train more, spend less.

This ^.

[SecondsCount]

1. Get rid of the bargain bin 1911. Unless you are an experienced 1911 gunsmith then I wouldn't spend anymore time or money on it.

2. What LittleLebowski said. My P30 has the LEM trigger which will take some practice to learn how to shoot but I like the configuration overall.

[GJM]

Or, for about the same cost of the HK, buy an M&P 9 full size and M&P mid-size 45, both with thumb safeties.

I don't care for the thumb safety on an HK 45/45C, and prefer LEM. LEM is an acquired taste, which some love and others never do.

[JDM]

Why are you set on .45?

[CCT125US]

Hello -

I'm new to the forum, but having lurked around a bit, this looks like a good collection of folks who can provide some advice based on real world experience and not devolve into a flamewar...
Welcome

I bought my first pistol (XD 40, service model) in the spring, and while I've enjoyed it, I don't feel that it is the right pistol for me. The trigger doesn't feel right, it's a bit chunky in the grip. I've also picked up a used, bargain bin 1911 and done a pile of work on it, and while I love shooting it, and I shoot it well I think for my experience level, it just is not reliable enough for me to trust my life or my family's life on it (but hey, I've reduced the stovepipes from "once or twice per mag" to "once or twice per box of ammo"... and the failures to return to battery seem to be gone... only took me $100 worth of ammo to work the kinks out...). I get the feeling that I'd need to sell my car to get a 1911 that I could count on.
Based on your above statements it looks like you need to get rid of the 1911 as well
Having spent a lot of time looking at different guns, researching, etc., I am pretty sold on the HK45 or the HK45C, but I'd really appreciate some advice from folks who know a lot more than me.
Why .45?
Here are my needs:

* I am looking for a "one gun" to live with. I'm selling the XD 40, without a doubt, to help fund this new purchase. I may hold onto the 1911 because I do really enjoy shooting it, despite its annoyances.
If you enjoy it that's great, I have a 1911 that I enjoy looking at but choose to shoot my P30
* I need to be able to concealed carry.
With a proper holster and trial and error you should have no problem with the HK45
* I like going to the range, a lot. I go once a week lately and shoot 100 rounds or so per trip. I want to become a good pistol shooter, primarily practical, but also for sport.
That adds up to 5200 rds per year which in my area is $1246 for 9mm at $11.99 or $1870 for .45
* I don't want to be buying another pistol any time soon. The XD 40 and 1911 were good purchases to get my feet wet, I've learned a lot about what I like and don't like in a pistol, and now I feel like I can make a much better decision that will last me a long time.
Agree. If a local range has rentals go rent guns for a day and see what WORKS BEST FOR YOU But the P30 gets another vote from me.
So, here are my questions, and please keep in mind that I am pretty new to pistols, have never concealed carried (my class is in mid-December):

* Is the extra size of the HK45 compared to the HK45C going to significantly impact my ability to carry concealed? I'm 5'10", 225 lbs., that's almost all muscle (not bragging, just trying to give an idea of my build). My XD or a 1911, when tucked into my waistband inside the pants, seems to mostly disappear, especially since I exclusively wear bigger shirts untucked anyways, but they aren't super comfortable. This is just me sitting at home experimenting without a holster to get an idea of positioning. The HK45 feels a bit better in my hand (I'd be filing the finger grooves off, they clearly are trying to put my hand a bit too low on the grip), but the 45C still feels really good... pinky is *almost* cramped, and I'd prefer for it to fill the bottom on my hand, but that's because I'm used to the XD and the 1911. I am looking to get the 10 round mags and build up the floorplate so that they meet the grip in the rear to provide the extra length I want. That would be a fun project. :)

* Will the shorter barrel really impact accuracy, speed of aiming, etc. that much? What about recoil of the 45C compared to the 45?
It will have very little affect. Less mass equals more recoil, but everyone perceives recoil differently

* Triggers... I feel comfortable with the standard DA/SA trigger with decocker and safety since that's what the 1911 has. I never felt that the XD had adequate safety, the pull is light (albeit insanely long), it just seems like a good way to become a cautionary tale on a YouTube video. I know that ToddG is really happy with the DAO LEM trigger. Forgive my ignorance, and I'm not looking to start a flamewar here, but what is the advantage of the DAO LEM trigger over the standard DA/SA trigger? Does DA/SA still make sense given my inexperience? For the record, I have zero problem with doing a trigger change later as my needs and experience change, I just want to know what I should get up front.
View the thread titled "can an argument be made for DA/SA autoloaders"
* Sights... the super illuminovas are neat in terms of the glow, but I'd imagine that they'd be useless after concealed carry all day or sitting in my nightstand gun safe. Is it a safe bet to go with the Heine QWIK Straight Eight's for this gun? Is there something else I should be considering instead?
The stock sights suck, Heinie QS8 would be a good choice as you said

* Finally... if you purchased either one, did you regret your purchase? Why or why not? If you got one size but wished you had gotten the other, again, why or why not?
I did regret the 1911, as I said it just sits there and looks pretty

I'm not super flush with cash, so I really want to make the most informed choice possible, and this seems like the best place to get quality information.

You have found a great site with good info, but you still need to see what works for you.

Thanks in advance!

J.Ja

[vcdgrips]

If it was me and knowing everything I know now ( shooting since 1991, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, EAG/Pat Rogers, Rangemaster/Tom Givens, AFHF x2 grad, trained with FBI,DEA, ATF,KCPD, IPD etc) and I was just starting out

1. I would buy a S & W 9mm M&P with a frame mounted safety and six magazines
2. Blade Tech Injection Molded holster/mag pouch set as my unconcealed range/training holster set
3. Make sure the gun had sights that I could see i.e. Ameriglo
4 Buy a 1.5 inch 5 stich Wilderness belt
5. Buy some electronic hearing protection
6. Buy some quality eye protection i.e. Oakley, Rudy Project or ESS
7 Buy 3000 rounds of 9mm ammo
8. Take a good 2 or 3 day class and start shooting some IPSC in a tactically sound manner (which means you will never come close to "winning" anything) to become conciously compentent with the gun
9. After that I would buy a quality IWB holster
10. Finish off my 3000 rounds doing what I was taught to do in the first class
11. Buy 3000 rounds of 9mm
12. Take another class, this time running concealed
13. Apply what I learned in both classes and start shooting some IDPA in a tactically sound manner ( same caveat re "winning") until I was unconciously competent with the platform
14. Buy a second gun just like the first one and six magazines, shoot it about 500 round to make sure it was reliable and then make it my dedicated carry pistol and my first gun with 6k thru it would be my dedicated training pistol

If some had outlined this for me above, I would be a better shooter now, I would have become a better shooter faster and I would have saved a ton of time talent and treasure. At the close of this exercise, if I still wanted a .45, I would buy 2 guns set up the same from the beginning and take a class or two with that platform as well.

YMMV greatly

David Barnes

[Stuffbreaker]

I have an HK45, 45c and a couple of P30s in 9mm. A P30 is a much better choice for someone who wants to shoot alot and own only one pistol. It conceals about as well as the 45c, and is much less expensive to shoot. To me, shooting "a lot" is 400+ rounds a week. If I didn't reload, I'd never choose a .45 for a training pistol.

Having said all that, the 45c is the better choice for a do-it-all .45. The shorter grip conceals MUCH better on the hip and draws smoother from concealment with fewer snags. It accepts 10-round mags, so capacity is not a major concern. The 45c grip is less abrasive on the skin, making it more comfortable to conceal. I shoot my 45c equally as well as my full-size at all distances.

[ToddG]

* Is the extra size of the HK45 compared to the HK45C going to significantly impact my ability to carry concealed?

That is primarily dependent on you, your clothing choices, etc. I carried a full size HK45 for a year and while it definitely took more work to keep it concealed, it was concealed well. Perhaps a better way to look at it, though, is to ask yourself what the full size does that the compact would not. Because if all else is essentially equal, why go to the trouble of trying to conceal the bigger gun?


* Will the shorter barrel really impact accuracy, speed of aiming, etc. that much? What about recoil of the 45C compared to the 45?

Even for a very highly skilled shooter, the difference will be minimal if it exists at all. Candidly, if you're at the point where you're getting rid of your XD to buy your first serious pistol, the shootability of a HK45 vs HK45C should be extremely low on your list of priorities.


but what is the advantage of the DAO LEM trigger over the standard DA/SA trigger?

The DA/SA provides an added level of safety by requiring more force on the trigger to make the gun go off when decocked. The flipside is that a heavier trigger is generally harder to master and requires more attention to the fundamentals than many people are willing to devote. You also need to get into the habit of decocking the pistol before holstering, etc.


* Sights... the super illuminovas are neat in terms of the glow, but I'd imagine that they'd be useless after concealed carry all day or sitting in my nightstand gun safe. Is it a safe bet to go with the Heine QWIK Straight Eight's for this gun? Is there something else I should be considering instead?

Heinie and Dawson both make night sights and either of them would be worlds better than the stock sights. I've had a number of sets of Heinies where the tritium dot in the rear sight was slightly off center, however, so be careful.

Having said all that, LilL's advice at the beginning of the thread was the best: buy a P30 instead.

[EVP]

I had a HK 45c LEM and made the decision to go to 9mm. I first went with two g19s briefly then went with a HK p30 LEM. I should of just switched from a Hk45c to a p30 but oh we'll who cares.

I would say go with a p30. If I were you try a HK 45 to test out. In your post you said you are pretty sold on the Hk45 so at least try it out. If not you are always going to be wondering about it. Either way both are great pistols and its up to you on what you are wanting to use and why.

[jmjames]

Thanks guys! There's a lot of really good information here, and I appreciate the time you've all spent responding.

In my area of the world, crystal meth and crack are big problems. It seems like every week, the police are shutting down a meth lab within 5 miles of me. And I live in a "nice" town! But being close to the country, there's lots of meth labs, folks involved in transport game, etc. I've spent a portion of my life dealing with drug addicts on a regular basis, and I know from first hand experience that things which would deter a typical person from pressing on with an attack will not stop someone flying on these drugs. Without going into detail, I have a VERY healthy sense of danger when it comes to the combination of drugs/alcohol and people who want to hurt others. I grew up around a LOT of retired NYPD, FBI, CIA, and people involved in personal protection (my step father ran a bodyguard operation, and my mother was a researcher in the international drug trade), and the retired police all carried .45 for precisely that reason. Hearing an officer talk about how he put 6 rounds of .38 into someone on PCP and still got stabbed while doing liquor store duty has made very nervous about the ability of 9mm to keep me and my family safe if it ever comes to that situation.

I am not dead set on .45, and I know that being able to afford to shoot more is important. But at the same time... .45 has a comfort factor to me, and let's be honest, feeling safe is important. Right now, I don't shoot as much as I would like to (I'm shooting around 100 rounds/week), but that's a limitation of time, not money. I can afford to shoot 100 rounds/week as an ongoing expense, but it's hard for me to put $1,000 in the same place at the same time, I'm the sole earner in a family of 5 and my life is filled with surprise expenses that makes saving very difficult! If I were shooting 300/week, I would undoubtedly want to do doing that with 9mm, not .45.

Feel free to let me know if I'm worried about nothing here... I'm a VERY open minded person, especially when it comes to taking advice from people who know what they're talking about.

And yes, I probably will get rid of the 1911 as well at some point, but I want to make sure that it's more reliable when I sell it than it was when I bought it. I can't in good conscience pretend that it doesn't stovepipe or have issues returning to battery when selling it, and at the same time if you tell someone that, it's mighty hard to sell it.

Reading that (very long) thread, it really sounds like DA/SA is right for me, which was my initial intuition.

I have a few follow up questions:

* If I were to get the P30, should I get .40 or 9mm? .40 seems to be a good compromise round, that's why I got the XD in .40. 9mm is, of course, far less expensive. Not trying to stir up a caliber war, of course, and I know the relative benefits of both (cost, capacity, etc.), just looking for a suggestion based on my needs.

* With the DA/SA, why wouldn't/couldn't I carry cocked & locked? Is that more dangerous than decocked in DA mode?

Thanks again!

J.Ja

[GJM]

.40 offers you essentially 9mm ballistics with more recoil than a 45 or 10mm.

[Default.mp3]

* With the DA/SA, why wouldn't/couldn't I carry cocked & locked? Is that more dangerous than decocked in DA mode?

As an aside, should you go the P30 route, you should get the P30S if you plan on carrying it cocked-and-locked; the standard P30 does not come with a thumb safety, and thus you would not be able to carry as such. As for DA/SA, from what I can tell, this generally doesn't really refer to cocked-and-locked in discussion, I think, since many DA/SA pistols cannot be carried as such (P30s, Beretta 92s, Sigs, etc.) since they have no manual safety or putting it in safe automatically decocks the weapon.

[nwhpfan]

DA/SA is not my favorite and since there's some really good alternatives I'm not quick to praise it. But, if your set on it-go for it. And yes, comfort does mean something so if your not swayed by any 9mm arguments and are set on .45; then get a .45. So basically what you want is a DA/SA concealable .45 pistol. Then I would either get the HK45 compact or the USP45 compact. I think you could get a little shot used USP compact 45 in the $600 range so that's the route I would suggest. Good luck. Check out www.gunbroker.com or www.hkpro.com Good luck.

[jmjames]

As an aside, should you go the P30 route, you should get the P30S if you plan on carrying it cocked-and-locked; the standard P30 does not come with a thumb safety, and thus you would not be able to carry as such. As for DA/SA, from what I can tell, this generally doesn't really refer to cocked-and-locked in discussion, I think, since many DA/SA pistols cannot be carried as such (P30s, Beretta 92s, Sigs, etc.) since they have no manual safety or putting it in safe automatically decocks the weapon.

The safety was one of the big reasons why I am looking at the H&K models. I'm going to guess that DA/SA with safety is a touch safer than SA only with safety due to the trigger pull on first shot?

J.Ja

[JeffJ]

9mm has come a long way in the last 20 years. I would search around here for some the posts that Doc GKR has put up about different ammo.

Shoot whatever you want, but make sure that you've got a good reason to do so. For me, I've decided that I prefer the ability to put more rounds down range (cost factor) and carry a higher capactiy. My everyday carry is a Glock 34 which gives me 18 rounds in the gun vs. an HK 45 which holds 10+1 (I think). Given that I've been taught and have read enough accounts that I firmly believe you'll need to shoot someone multiple times to stop them regardless of caliber - give me the 7 extra rounds and the time at the range. You may decide differently but I wouldn't lump modern 9mm defensive ammo in with anecdotes about .38 from 20-30 years ago - that's like comparing apples and watermelons

[F-Trooper05]

Many of the guys on this forum work in "high risk" environments every single day and feel confident with the 9mm's they carry. Just something to think about.

[Odin Bravo One]

The safety was one of the big reasons why I am looking at the H&K models. I'm going to guess that DA/SA with safety is a touch safer than SA only with safety due to the trigger pull on first shot?

J.Ja

The configuration of a firearms safety mechanism is only as safe as the person handling the firearm. Obviously one does not want to carry a DA/SA with the hammer cocked if there is no manual safety, but if we follow the 4 Cardinal Rules of handling firearms, then DA/SA/SF/DAK/MACHINE-GUN, doesn't matter. The number 1 safety is always between your ears. The mechanical safeties incorporated into modern firearms are to render them safe for the French. Meaning, they won't go off accidentally if dropped. They cannot, and will not be able to ever replace sound firearms handling practices. Follow the rules, and you won't have any issues, regardless of what action type you select.

As for caliber, choose whichever one suits you. It is much less important than it was several years ago. Of course, all of the advancements in bullet technology mean nothing if you miss. Facts are facts, and difficult to argue. Fact is that both .40 and .45 cost much more than 9mm. You can shoot many more training and practice rounds of 9mm than either of the other two. If money is not an issue, and you want to shoot .40 or .45, have at it. The uneducated and inexperienced try to argue that it takes less hits with a .45 or .40 or whatever their little fan boy caliber is. Fact is, until you move into the realm of .300 Win Mag and bigger, you cannot rely on the "One Shot Stop".

Do the research, look at the factual information, and base your decision on what suits you best, and best meets your needs. Good luck.

[vcdgrips]

Further thoughts,


Re caliber
I shoot, on average, 12K+ rounds of .40 cal a year and have done so in earnest for the last 5 years. I have shot this much .40 cal because of the agents and agencies with whom I train use the .40 cal as their duty round. I "feel" it in my wrists and elbows much more so than the 12K+ of 9mm (mostly 115/147 FMJ and 124 +P ) and .45 ( 230 Speer FMJ or 5.7g of 231 and a 230g bullet) that I shot in the prior 5 year time frame.

The "snap" of the .40 for me, while completely manageable, has clearly taken its toll on my body.

IMHO, the round count needed to be unconciously competent with a pistol is going to outstrip your budget making 9mm the easy choice unless you sink some money into a .45 cal Dillion reloading press ( a whole different thread btw). If "ballistics" are really drving your train and make you feel better (completely valid), go with the .45 knowing it is going to hurt financially. If I had to feed and water my pistol, exclusively on my dime, a .40 cal gun would be a complete non starter for me.


Re the budget 1911

Dump that with full disclosure and put the money into a pistol that you can bet your life on today. Quite frankly, the function warts are implicit in many budget 1911s and most people (individuals/gun show guys/store keepers) buying such a platform should know that. Unless you want to embark on another expensive hobby (1911 gunsmithing) you will likely spend much more than the cost of the pistol before having a pistol you can bet your life on. Indeed, the internet and ranges are full of guys who bought a budget 1911 for a few hundred dollars and spent several hundered dollars and dozens of hours only to be thwarted by crappy dimensions, metallurgy and/or the inabilty to simply fix the gun.

[jmjames]

I'll do some more digging on the 9mm issue, but honestly, you guys have really done a good job here at convincing me that .45 is going to cost me a lot of money that isn't going to be giving me anything additional. I can't help but notice that the P30 is about $100 cheaper than the HK45 too, that's 400 rounds to practice with. I really just did not know that 9mm bullets had advanced so much, no one in my personal circle has ever mentioned this. I think that you guys just saved me a lot of money!


Re the budget 1911

Dump that with full disclosure and put the money into a pistol that you can bet your life on today. Quite frankly, the function warts are implicit in many budget 1911s and most people (individuals/gun show guys/store keepers) buying such a platform should know that. Unless you want to embark on another expensive hobby (1911 gunsmithing) you will likely spend much more than the cost of the pistol before having a pistol you can bet your life on. Indeed, the internet and ranges are full of guys who bought a budget 1911 for a few hundred dollars and spent several hundered dollars and dozens of hours only to be thwarted by crappy dimensions, metallurgy and/or the inabilty to simply fix the gun.

Umm... I've ALREADY put almost as much into the 1911 as I spent on it... I've got around $300 into it in purely mechanical parts, and that's not counting the endless ammo that has gone into testing to see if I fixed anything. I know exactly what you mean by the dimensions! After market trigger went in the trash, after I spent a ton of time filing it down just enough to actually FIT, I discovered that it was too short for the grip safety to work! I only got away that cheap because I chose to modify the stock grip safety myself instead of buying a replacement ("some vendors" assume that you are an experience gunsmith and magically know that aftermarket hammers don't fit mil-spec pistols... argh...). As someone who used to really dig fixing up old cars, it appeals to me, but much like my '81 Monte Carlo that I had in college, the enjoyment of fixing something up does not translate into having something that I can count on day-in-and-day-out. Honestly, I'm really disappointed. Those of us who DON'T spend a lot of time in sites like this (I will be spending a lot more time here now!) see the 1911 as this insanely reliable, super-modifiable, rode in on a unicorn and shoots rainbows pistol. I let the "street reputation" of the 1911 fool me, that's why I took the time to ask around here about the HK45 first. At least with the XD I can honestly say that I think I got a good firearm for the price, it just wasn't the right firearm for me.

The worst part is, for what I've put into the 1911, I could have just about bought the P30 or HK45! Well, the lesson is learned.

Thanks again to everybody here... you put in a lot of great thought, and I hope that in the future, I'll be able to contribute back to someone else like you guys have done here for me today.

J.Ja

[TGS]

I didn't see someone mention this yet, so here it is:

Dr. Robert's service caliber discussion (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?99-Self-Defense-and-Duty-Loads...ballistics-info-by-DocGKR)

That's not internet hearsay or the dude at the gunshop always saying, "Get a .45! Nothin has that knockdown power, it'll take a mans arm off!" Dr Roberts is also a member here, and as far as I know everything he's done in the lab has been validated with real world shootings.

[JV_]

TGS: I like this link better ;)
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?99-Self-Defense-and-Duty-Loads...ballistics-info-by-DocGKR

[TGS]

TGS: I like this link better ;)
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?99-Self-Defense-and-Duty-Loads...ballistics-info-by-DocGKR

Good call! Link changed.....

[jmjames]

TGS: I like this link better ;)
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?99-Self-Defense-and-Duty-Loads...ballistics-info-by-DocGKR

That article has made me feel completely comfortable with 9mm as a self defense round, especially given the differences in carry capacity.

It looks like I'll get the P30, unless I find something truly awful about it. If it turns out that it's not right for me, the resale market looks strong enough that I'd be looking at only losing a little bit of money to go for the HK45, or perhaps it would be a good fit for my wife who I think is getting interested in having a pistol.

Thanks!

J.Ja

[fuse]

Thread success.

[fixer]

I would like to add...consider budgeting for buying an identical copy of your chosen pistol. I think it is wise to have a practice gun and a range gun.

If I could start over...I would have rented more and bought less. I would have picked at most two pistols from the same manual of arms, and purchased
copies of them. Then the rest would have been spent on practice.

You are on the right track....

[TGS]

oops. posted in wrong thread, my b.

[JMorse]

You've basically come to the same conclusion I did. I wanted an HK45 but decided the P30 was a better choice with the help of the advice here. ToddG did a really great endurance test on the P30 that you may be interested in. You'll need to use the search function for 'P30 Thursday' on his website to find the test (Todd, perhaps you can make a page for each test that links all the weekly pages?).

Here's a link to the website and the announcement page for the P30 test: http://pistol-training.com/archives/1406

[Robert Mitchum]

I use an HK 45 for carry .
I have a P30L also a nice shooting pistol.
Of the 2 get the HK 45 and start reloading ;)

[Jac]

You've basically come to the same conclusion I did. I wanted an HK45 but decided the P30 was a better choice with the help of the advice here. ToddG did a really great endurance test on the P30 that you may be interested in. You'll need to use the search function for 'P30 Thursday' on his website to find the test (Todd, perhaps you can make a page for each test that links all the weekly pages?).

Here's a link to the website and the announcement page for the P30 test: http://pistol-training.com/archives/1406
If you scroll down a bit and look under 'Categories' on the right side of the page, there's a Range Reports section with links to all the tests.

Here's the link for the P30: http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/p30-thursday

[ToddG]

(Todd, perhaps you can make a page for each test that links all the weekly pages?).

You mean like the Categories links in the right margin? P30 Thursday category link (http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/p30-thursday)

Also, at the bottom of each update are links to all previous updates. So if you go to the final post, you've got a list of all the posts for the whole test.

edited to add: Jac beat me to it!

[JMorse]

Fine. I suppose that would be acceptable.

/slinks out before anyone notices

[jmjames]

Hey guys -

Just a quick update, the P30 arrived yesterday. I was crunched for time when I picked it up, but I got to put 30 rounds through it pretty quickly. A few thoughts on it:

* I got to hold a P30 before I ordered, and it fit me perfectly. The HK45C felt just a touch too short in front and definitely too short in the rear, the HK45 fullsize was bigger than needed. The P30 is just right. The barrel length feels good too.

* Shooting it is a joy and I am returning back to target very, very quickly in a controlled manner.

* The sights aren't great, but they aren't bad either (like my 1911 government model, ugh). I am looking forwards to replacing them but I can live with the stock sights for the moment.

* I got the V3 model (DA/SA) with frame safety. I feel that it gives me the most options for safety as someone who hasn't carried yet (taking my CWP on the 12th and 13th). It will let me carry cocked and locked, or in DA mode either locked or unlocked. When I feel confident enough to switch over to the LEM trigger, then it shouldn't be too hard to do that.

* The DA pull definitely takes some time to get used to! I can see why some people aren't so pro on it. I'm glad that I have the option of carrying cocked and locked or switching to LEM. That said, anyone calling this trigger "awful" clearly has never experienced an AK's trigger... :eek: Snap caps are arriving Monday, so I can do lots of dry firing to get used to it.

* Wow, do 15 round mags go quickly in this! A lot faster than 8 round mags in my 1911. I need a speedloader, pronto.

* I was able to get a great price on it from my local range/gun shop, basically the best "Internet price" I could find. Sales tax washed out not paying for the FFL transfer and then some, but it was nice to keep my money local and still get a good deal.

So... I am definitely pleased with this purchase, thanks to everyone for helping me pick the P30!

J.Ja

[Sparks2112]

I've got both the hk45 and p30. I love them both equally and they both are like shooting ray guns. The accuracy is scary. That having been said I carry the p30 most often unless I'm open carrying. The hk45 is concealable, just not like the p30. I'll be selling the 45 on the board here as soon as my post count is high enough. I love it, but I'm trying to fund another project and the P30 is just too perfect for most of my needs.

[wrt81]

Hey guys -

Just a quick update, the P30 arrived yesterday. I was crunched for time when I picked it up, but I got to put 30 rounds through it pretty quickly. A few thoughts on it:

* I got to hold a P30 before I ordered, and it fit me perfectly. The HK45C felt just a touch too short in front and definitely too short in the rear, the HK45 fullsize was bigger than needed. The P30 is just right. The barrel length feels good too.

* Shooting it is a joy and I am returning back to target very, very quickly in a controlled manner.

* The sights aren't great, but they aren't bad either (like my 1911 government model, ugh). I am looking forwards to replacing them but I can live with the stock sights for the moment.

* I got the V3 model (DA/SA) with frame safety. I feel that it gives me the most options for safety as someone who hasn't carried yet (taking my CWP on the 12th and 13th). It will let me carry cocked and locked, or in DA mode either locked or unlocked. When I feel confident enough to switch over to the LEM trigger, then it shouldn't be too hard to do that.

* The DA pull definitely takes some time to get used to! I can see why some people aren't so pro on it. I'm glad that I have the option of carrying cocked and locked or switching to LEM. That said, anyone calling this trigger "awful" clearly has never experienced an AK's trigger... :eek: Snap caps are arriving Monday, so I can do lots of dry firing to get used to it.

* Wow, do 15 round mags go quickly in this! A lot faster than 8 round mags in my 1911. I need a speedloader, pronto.

* I was able to get a great price on it from my local range/gun shop, basically the best "Internet price" I could find. Sales tax washed out not paying for the FFL transfer and then some, but it was nice to keep my money local and still get a good deal.

So... I am definitely pleased with this purchase, thanks to everyone for helping me pick the P30!

J.Ja

Just a heads up regarding converting your V3 to LEM...with the P series (P30 & P2000) this "officially" is not supported nor recommended by HK. There are some people that have done it and report it working though. The USP and HK45/c models are set up a little different and the conversion is "official" on those.

[jmjames]

Just a heads up regarding converting your V3 to LEM...with the P series (P30 & P2000) this "officially" is not supported nor recommended by HK. There are some people that have done it and report it working though. The USP and HK45/c models are set up a little different and the conversion is "official" on those.

That's good to know, thanks! Worst comes to worst, the resale value on these seems pretty good, wouldn't be too much of a hit to replace it, or I could pass it onto my wife. She has held it, but not shot it yet, but she likes it a lot and seems to have a strong interest in carrying as well.

J.Ja

[CMG]

Just a heads up regarding converting your V3 to LEM...with the P series (P30 & P2000) this "officially" is not supported nor recommended by HK. There are some people that have done it and report it working though. The USP and HK45/c models are set up a little different and the conversion is "official" on those.

Actually you cannot convert the P30S (with frame safety) to LEM. There are differences in the frame that prevent the parts from working.

[jmjames]

Actually you cannot convert the P30S (with frame safety) to LEM. There are differences in the frame that prevent the parts from working.

Are you sure? Because they make the P30LS with an LEM, unless I have misread their Web site. But it may be specific to the LS model.

J.Ja

[JM Campbell]

Yes. If it is a DA/SA they will not warranty support the pistol since the modification is not factory for that gun. Now if you pay them to modify it it may be a different story.

If I recall correctly the frames are slightly different to accommodate the safety and then there will be a open area on the slide rear where the decock lever is.

Best advice is to contact Travis at HK Customer Service and get the skinny straight from the horses mouth.

YMMV

John

ETA I have both: P30LS with V1 light LEM and a P30 V4 TLG LEM

[ToddG]

Yes. If it is a DA/SA they will not warranty support the pistol since the modification is not factory for that gun. Now if you pay them to modify it it may be a different story.

HK-USA will not convert a DA/SA (V3) P30 to any LEM variant.

[jmjames]

Yes. If it is a DA/SA they will not warranty support the pistol since the modification is not factory for that gun. Now if you pay them to modify it it may be a different story.

If I recall correctly the frames are slightly different to accommodate the safety and then there will be a open area on the slide rear where the decock lever is.

That makes sense, thanks! If I decide to go the LEM route in the future, I think I'd probably just buy another and sell or repurpose the one I just bought. Sounds like I'd be dealing with a ton of hassle to save a few bucks, it's not worth it sometimes!

J.Ja

[CMG]

Are you sure? Because they make the P30LS with an LEM, unless I have misread their Web site. But it may be specific to the LS model.

J.Ja

They sell that version however they do not sell a kit to do the conversion. Based on the following link it appears that the P30 LEM kit that you can buy will not work on the P30S:

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-customer-service/147041-kit-remove-p30ls-lem-safety.html