300 Blackout

[psalms144.1]

All y'all are bad influences on me. What's the current state of play for plug-n-plink NON-SBR .300 uppers? I'm not going to be parachuting into Tora Bora with it, just want to play with a new caliber on my existing rifle lower and maybe, someday, upgrade it to something more serious.

Or, am I wasting my time going that route, and should look at a dedicated pistol in 300? If the latter, what's the smart think on those nowadays?

[Slalom.45]

Psalms
I was recently in your boat. I'm really a pistol guy, but have been to my first AR class and getting "a bit" of the bug.

I too decided to go for a blackout. I thought about doing what you describe with an existing lower that I have in .556. After thinking it over a lot, (I'm really anal) I realized the only reason for me to do a .300 BO was to have it suppressed. If I am going to suppress it I don't want a 24" barrel hanging out in the wind. Therefore, I bit the bullet and did the paperwork for a suppressed SBR.

As you say this will really be a fun gun as I'm not parachuting into any dangerous countries. Even so I had to look at the ultimate reason I desired the caliber and take it to it's conclusion. For me that's going to be a suppressed SBR .300 BO that has a total barrel length of roughly 16" so it's grossly the same size as my other guns. My line of thinking may be totally different than yours. If so I apologize for taking your time. Have fun with your build!

[PNWTO]

At his class, Kyle Defoor had very good things to say about his 16" 300 upper from BCM. He is still very much a shorty guy but said he had the 16" upper out at a few mil and civ scoped rifle classes and it was awesome.

I think the BCM upper is probably a great way to go. I've been looking at 16" KMR-A for dinking around with and as a back up deer gun.

[HCM]

The blackout is at its best in short guns, suppressed.

A 16". 300 BO is a good choice for someone who wants an AR to hunt with in a state which does not allow SPR and does not allow hunting with .22 Caliber Center fires.

Otherwise I don't see a reason to go .300.

Can you do an AR pistol in NY?

[vaspence]

I was in a similar boat and I've been happy with my 8" Aero Precision complete upper. Not as expensive as the BCM (and I love me some BCM), but is doing what I want it do. I have a 16" .300 also but it is a Noveske factory upper which is a bit more change. Happy with it also!

[TR675]

I built an 8" shorty rifle using an Aero Precision upper, lower and BCG and a Ballistic Advantage (owned by AP) barrel. It works well. I would expect their factory uppers (they don't sell complete rifles in .300) would too. I rolled my own because I didn't like the wonky Seekins (?) rail they use on their factory builds.

[psalms144.1]

The blackout is at its best in short guns, suppressed.

A 16". 300 BO is a good choice for someone who wants an AR to hunt with in a state which does not allow SPR and does not allow hunting with .22 Caliber Center fires.

Otherwise I don't see a reason to go .300.

Can you do an AR pistol in NY?I'm exempt from NY SAFE (Peace Officer), so I can do an AR pistol. A can is a pipe dream (pun intended) for several more years until I can retire and escape this hellhole.

[LockedBreech]

I don't want to hijack/drift the thread too much, but I've also been considering a .300 BLK upper for my new Stag stripped lower I picked up. I have a few questions:

1.) Is there any reason to go .300 BLK if I have zero desire to suppress or SBR? I read that it's basically a ballistic surrogate for 7.62, which does interest me.
2.) Can I do a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC in my standard lower if those would be better choices to supplement my existing 16" 5.56 AR?

[Wondering Beard]

The following two articles give an interesting point of view:
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/05/22/300-aac-blackout/
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/03/19/anti-300-blackout-soapbox-downsized/

The first one is negative on the round, the second (by the same author) is a more positive follow up.

Personally, I find the concept interesting, especially in its potential capability as a car shredder, but I haven't taken a position, for or against, and am as curious as OP for the responses of those who have experience with the round and platform.

[Oukaapie]

6.8 requires different bolt and mags. Practice ammo is more expensive than 300. It recoils a bit more in pistols.

According to Doc, the 6.8 has more likelihood of leaving the round in the bad guy.

I dumped my 300 and kept my 6.8's as I'm in IL at the moment and have no way to get a Silencer.

[johnson]

I have an SBR'd lower and .30 cal suppressor and still can't justify getting into the 300 BLK game for my uses.

I would get a 6.5 Grendel upper because steel cased Wolf ammo is available for $6/20 rounds. Alexander Arms also sells their barrel for $195. Bolt and magazine compatibility is hugely overblown since owners of 300 BLK are 99% likely to have a dedicated BCG and separate magazines for that round anyway.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/65-grendel-ammo/20-round-box-65-grendel-100-grain-fmj-lacquered-steel-case-wpa-wolf-ammo

http://www.shopalexanderarms.com/Barrels-6_5_Grendel_16_Lite_Barrel.html

[OlongJohnson]

If you think about poka-yoke, the risk of loading 300BK in a .223 should worry you a little, if you are thinking about having both.

Personally, I'm going down the path of a 7.62x39 upper. Guys over on 68forums swear by C-Products Defense magazines and AR15 Performance bolts and barrels. I can vouch for Harrison Beene's customer service. Never had a problem with his stuff, but he's quick with an answer if you have a question. Don't have my commie AR together yet, but after a lot of reasearch and thought, that's where I'm going.

If you're a hand loader, I think 6.8 SPC makes a lot of sense. If you don't have a press, not so much.

[HCM]

I don't want to hijack/drift the thread too much, but I've also been considering a .300 BLK upper for my new Stag stripped lower I picked up. I have a few questions:

1.) Is there any reason to go .300 BLK if I have zero desire to suppress or SBR? I read that it's basically a ballistic surrogate for 7.62, which does interest me.
2.) Can I do a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC in my standard lower if those would be better choices to supplement my existing 16" 5.56 AR?

1- No.
2- Yes.

[Doc_Glock]

I was in a similar boat and I've been happy with my 8" Aero Precision complete upper. Not as expensive as the BCM (and I love me some BCM), but is doing what I want it do. I have a 16" .300 also but it is a Noveske factory upper which is a bit more change. Happy with it also!

This is the second twenty sub sonic rounds fired from an Aero 8.5" upper with Gemtech 300GMT silencer. Supers and subs ran fine on my lower, switched in a friend's full auto M-16 lower for a fun little rip.

https://vimeo.com/188927485

Ear pro was definitely not needed. I am still in the process of tuning this thing and really need to decide which ammo I want to use for supers and stock up on that.

Once tuned I think it will be a good home defense AR. It is exactly the same size as my unsuppressed 11.5" 5.56 carbine which is absolutely my favorite rifle.

I plan to run mainly supers, but it is nice to have the option of subs.

The long Aero hand guard fits nicely over the silencer.

[fatdog]

I have been dinking with .300BLK for almost 3 years now. Both supersonic and subsonic, suppressed and not. I personally view .300BLK as being two guns now.

I think if you want supersonic rounds, then using a carbine length gas barrel with the lighter bullets 110gr and 120gr is the ticket. In a 16" barrel you have a nice working version of an AR with near 7.62x39 ballistics that uses standard AR mags without difficulty.

I think 300blk also shines as a subsonic suppressed gun running 208/220/225 gr bullets out of an 8-10" barrel with a pistol length gas system.

I concluded that trying to set one upper up to run both types of ammo is just too difficult, because all my attempts ended up being reliable with one type round and not with the other.

My barrels all came from CMMG because they were one of the very few choices 3 years ago for both the pistol length gas and carbine length gas 300blk barrels.

I sold my 16" carbine length gas upper to a friend who's young teen daughter now uses it for deer hunting with 120gr bullets and a 1-3X weaver scope I mounted. Runs great, decent accuracy, probably the perfect 100 yard deer rifle for that young lady. Really no recoil to speak of but enough energy for a clean kill on an AL sized deer.

I kept my 9.5" pistol length gas barrel and run it exclusively with subsonic rounds and a suppressor. No need for hearing protection at all. I consider the max range for that rifle to be 150 yards, because past that the drop exceeds what I can actually manage with conventional holdovers with the red dot optic I currently use. I am not going to try to shoot at anything when the target is below my field of view through the optic.

I stopped development once I had both uppers running well, and I am sure there are better products on the market now, but I am really quite happy with my subsonic registered sbr version running suppressed.

[Doc_Glock]

I have been dinking with .300BLK for almost 3 years now. Both supersonic and subsonic, suppressed and not. I personally view .300BLK as being two guns now.

I think if you want supersonic rounds, then using a carbine length gas barrel with the lighter bullets 110gr and 120gr is the ticket. In a 16" barrel you have a nice working version of an AR with near 7.62x39 ballistics that uses standard AR mags without difficulty.

I think 300blk also shines as a subsonic suppressed gun running 208/220/225 gr bullets out of an 8-10" barrel with a pistol length gas system.

I concluded that trying to set one upper up to run both types of ammo is just too difficult, because all my attempts ended up being reliable with one type round and not with the other.

My barrels all came from CMMG because they were one of the very few choices 3 years ago for both the pistol length gas and carbine length gas 300blk barrels.

I sold my 16" carbine length gas upper to a friend who's young teen daughter now uses it for deer hunting with 120gr bullets and a 1-3X weaver scope I mounted. Runs great, decent accuracy, probably the perfect 100 yard deer rifle for that young lady. Really no recoil to speak of but enough energy for a clean kill on an AL sized deer.

I kept my 9.5" pistol length gas barrel and run it exclusively with subsonic rounds and a suppressor. No need for hearing protection at all. I consider the max range for that rifle to be 150 yards, because past that the drop exceeds what I can actually manage with conventional holdovers with the red dot optic I currently use. I am not going to try to shoot at anything when the target is below my field of view through the optic.

I stopped development once I had both uppers running well, and I am sure there are better products on the market now, but I am really quite happy with my subsonic registered sbr version running suppressed.

Do you have favorite ammo for the super and subsonic rifles?

[DocGKR]

Subsonic ammo has a VERY narrow military niche and little reason for CONUS LE use. There is NO reason to be using subsonic ammo in a rifle intended for defensive use in CONUS--you just neuter the rifle and make it into a shoulder fired handgun. Might want to listen to the comments on subsonic rifle ammo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFEAtwNj0I

[johnson]

Gotta give credit to AAC/Rob Silvers for marketing the hell out of 300 BLK. The round has become synonymous with SBR + suppressor + subsonic ammo...because it's pretty pointless otherwise. /sarcasm

The same can be said for 6.8 SPC that it's only good for hunting and 6.5 Grendel is only good for long range shooting and needing 20-24" barrels.

[LockedBreech]

1- No.
2- Yes.

Sweet thanks.

[Robinson]

Gotta give credit to AAC/Rob Silvers for marketing the hell out of 300 BLK. The round has become synonymous with SBR + suppressor + subsonic ammo...because it's pretty pointless otherwise.

Not sure how serious you are, but it's not pointless for me. Even supersonic 300 BLK suppresses better than some other cartridges and anything I can do to reduce risk of further hearing damage is very meaningful to me.

[Robinson]

Subsonic ammo has a VERY narrow military niche and little reason for CONUS LE use. There is NO reason to be using subsonic ammo in a rifle intended for defensive use in CONUS--you just neuter the rifle and make it into a shoulder fired handgun. Might want to listen to the comments on subsonic rifle ammo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFEAtwNj0I

DocGKR, I have listened to that and at the risk of beating a dead horse -- I understand why subsonic 300 BLK doesn't have the same performance as supersonic. But with ammo makers like LeHigh Defense now offering subsonic rounds that (supposedly) expand reliably and are touted as ethical deer killers would something like that not be viable in a defensive role?

As it stands now I only shoot supersonic ammo in my AR and am not planning to change that, but I admit to being somewhat interested in the subsonic ammo development.

[Doc_Glock]

Subsonic ammo has a VERY narrow military niche and little reason for CONUS LE use. There is NO reason to be using subsonic ammo in a rifle intended for defensive use in CONUS--you just neuter the rifle and make it into a shoulder fired handgun. Might want to listen to the comments on subsonic rifle ammo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFEAtwNj0I

Agreed. I bought the subs just to test the thing. Would work well for backyard coyotes though.

[fatdog]

Do you have favorite ammo for the super and subsonic rifles?.....Would work well for backyard coyotes though.

I reload all of mine, but from the few factory loadings I have tried, Hornady would be my choice for off the shelf ammo for both, the 208gr vmax subsonic and the 110gr supersonic. Caveat is that I view this cartridge as a hunting cartridge and nothing else really. I experienced very poor accuracy with the Remington loadings I tried. I have zero experience with Federal, Winchester, or Barnes which all seem to be popular now.

And...yotes...yes it does...I live out in the middle of a very rural area so the noise is not an issue wrt neighbors but it does give you one at least one more shot at the pack...

[entropy]

I went after it from a standpoint of a utility gun...truck and cabin. Im running a pistol lower with an Andro 8" upper. I do not reside in a supressor-friendly state so for the time being...thats a no-go out of state cabin not withstanding. What it DOES do for me is give me the perfect travel "long gun" with the ability to keep it loaded in the vehicle and cross state lines without filing paperwork. I can tote it around the back 40 and it allows me at least an additional 100yds from the 11.5" 5.56 that was its predecessor. Currently I am settling on the 110gr TSX and some bulk 165gr soff points for plinkers/practice. I still view it as a "botique caliber" and its a handloading proposition. I do not expect to run it like a 5.56 either...much lower round counts.

[DocGKR]

Subsonic rifle ammo performs like a handgun projectile punching holes in objects; why is that in any way superior to supersonic rifle projectiles which typically offer substantially better terminal performance, including significant stretch effects?

If handgun performance is desired, just use a handgun; if a shoulder fired weapon is used, I want the best performance possible from it...

[Robinson]

Subsonic rifle ammo performs like a handgun projectile punching holes in objects; why is that in any way superior to supersonic rifle projectiles which typically offer substantially better terminal performance, including significant stretch effects?

If handgun performance is desired, just use a handgun; if a shoulder fired weapon is used, I want the best performance possible from it...

Yeah I can't argue with that logic -- but a hearing safe round that functions reliably in a suppressed AR and offers effective game killing performance seems appealing at least on the surface. I'm not planning to switch away from supersonic rounds at this point though.

[DocGKR]

You want subsonic for hunting game--go for it; for that matter, archery offers a hearing safe hunting alternative if that is what you desire.

For defensive firearms use where someone's life hangs in the balance, subsonic rifle ammo is not the ideal option in most circumstances.

[SLG]

I totally get the need you have for subsonic ammo.

The solution is to get a 9mm carbine. Then you have effectively the same ballistics, but much cheaper ammo, easier to reload if you reload.

I've taken big game with a 45acp, but I would not consider it to be ideal in anyway.

[Robinson]

You want subsonic for hunting game--go for it; for that matter, archery offers a hearing safe hunting alternative if that is what you desire.

For defensive firearms use where someone's life hangs in the balance, subsonic rifle ammo is not the ideal option in most circumstances.

Okay -- you've convinced me. My 300 BLK AR will stay loaded with supersonic ammunition. TTSX to be precise.

[Robinson]

I totally get the need you have for subsonic ammo.

The solution is to get a 9mm carbine. Then you have effectively the same ballistics, but much cheaper ammo, easier to reload if you reload.

I've taken big game with a 45acp, but I would not consider it to be ideal in anyway.

Yeah, I hate this situation but I'm trying to make the best of it.

I started a thread some time ago about 9mm carbines and didn't get a lot of positive feedback on that option either. In the end, it boils down to the fact that I will be risking additional hearing damage if I ever have to use a firearm to defend my loved ones whether at home or while carrying. I can try to reduce the risk by using a suppressor and/or electronic earpro but it's still a risk I need to (and do) accept. But I guess I'm probably a little more willing to accept a compromise on performance in order to reduce risk of hearing damage than are people with normal healthy ears.

Sticking with suppressed supersonic 300 BLK for now, along with subsonic 9mm for my pistols.

[blake_g]

I reload all of mine, but from the few factory loadings I have tried, Hornady would be my choice for off the shelf ammo for both, the 208gr vmax subsonic and the 110gr supersonic. Caveat is that I view this cartridge as a hunting cartridge and nothing else really. I experienced very poor accuracy with the Remington loadings I tried. I have zero experience with Federal, Winchester, or Barnes which all seem to be popular now.

And...yotes...yes it does...I live out in the middle of a very rural area so the noise is not an issue wrt neighbors but it does give you one at least one more shot at the pack...

Just as an FYI, I have had two different lots of Hornady 110 gr flatten primers dramatically and in several cases the primer pockets were blown to the point that primers fell out onto the shooting bench on extraction. This from an AAC handi-Rifle that has had no issue with factory or handloads thus far. I have informed Hornady and am waiting for their reply...

[fatdog]

Just as an FYI, I have had two different lots of Hornady 110 gr flatten primers dramatically and in several cases the primer pockets were blown to the point that primers fell out onto the shooting bench on extraction. This from an AAC handi-Rifle that has had no issue with factory or handloads thus far. I have informed Hornady and am waiting for their reply...

yikes

sounds like a chamber dimension mismatch on the leade distance Vs what Hornaday loads, I had zero pressure related signs or problems with the CMMG barrel but it may have had a more generous run out...good to know.

[voodoo_man]

+1 to what Doc said.

I build an 8" 300 supersonic because I need it to what a 30 cal does best against people and barriers. I plan on using Barnes VOR-TX, 110gr, black tips to this end as they have been the most consistent (found through research) against the aforementioned problems.

I have a suppressed 9mm glock, shooting 158gr that will do everything else I need suppressed.

[blake_g]

yikes

sounds like a chamber dimension mismatch on the leade distance Vs what Hornaday loads, I had zero pressure related signs or problems with the CMMG barrel but it may have had a more generous run out...good to know.

Yet I'm also loading the Hornady bullet and the Barnes TTSX 110 over max charges of H110 and no issues...

[Phrog107]

To me, the 110gr Barnes Blacktip is what makes .300blk worth it to me.

A round that will reliably expand and penetrate, is barrier blind through common barriers. And has both those traits out to 300 yards from a short barrel.

[jeep45238]

If you think about poka-yoke, the risk of loading 300BK in a .223 should worry you a little, if you are thinking about having both.

Personally, I'm going down the path of a 7.62x39 upper. Guys over on 68forums swear by C-Products Defense magazines and AR15 Performance bolts and barrels. I can vouch for Harrison Beene's customer service. Never had a problem with his stuff, but he's quick with an answer if you have a question. Don't have my commie AR together yet, but after a lot of reasearch and thought, that's where I'm going.

If you're a hand loader, I think 6.8 SPC makes a lot of sense. If you don't have a press, not so much.


Best of luck with cproducts- they wouldn't make corrections to their dies for 5.45x39 after I documented everything with dimensions and pictures. Always had failure to feed off the right feed lip, contour was wrong. After going back and forth for a while with them, they stopped replacing their magazines since I would return so many back as defective (they were).

It's the sole reason I got out of 5.45 ar rifles and went to AK - took 12k rounds for a bolt lug to break, but the thing was heavily abused for a civvie range gun. Just a friendly warning.

[LittleLebowski]

Best of luck with cproducts- they wouldn't make corrections to their dies for 5.45x39 after I documented everything with dimensions and pictures. Always had failure to feed off the right feed lip, contour was wrong. After going back and forth for a while with them, they stopped replacing their magazines since I would return so many back as defective (they were).

It's the sole reason I got out of 5.45 ar rifles and went to AK - took 12k rounds for a bolt lug to break, but the thing was heavily abused for a civvie range gun. Just a friendly warning.

Yup, the lips on their 5.45 mags were woeful. ASC 5.45 mags are much better. I can't believe that anyone would recommend C-Products.

[entropy]

To me, the 110gr Barnes Blacktip is what makes .300blk worth it to me.

A round that will reliably expand and penetrate, is barrier blind through common barriers. And has both those traits out to 300 yards from a short barrel.

I agree. I just finished my load development using this bullet. 2140fps out of an 8" barrel at SL pressure. That keeps it above the 1300fps threshold past 325yds which is way further than my abilities with my current gun and optics. I wish someone else would come up with a comparable bullet. I hate putting all my eggs in one basket.

[blake_g]

To me, the 110gr Barnes Blacktip is what makes .300blk worth it to me.

A round that will reliably expand and penetrate, is barrier blind through common barriers. And has both those traits out to 300 yards from a short barrel.

Concur completely - there are others suitable for paper but for shooting animated targets they are the bomb-diggity...

[Cool Breeze]

I can't remember what Defoor said exactly but it was something like, "300 blackout allows me to legally hunt with an AR platform in the lower 48". For someone that knows zero about hunting or the laws ... Can someone elaborate what that means?

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[LOKNLOD]

I can't remember what Defoor said exactly but it was something like, "300 blackout allows me to legally hunt with an AR platform in the lower 48". For someone that knows zero about hunting or the laws ... Can someone elaborate what that means?

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Many locales have restrictions on caliber preventing the use of .22-caliber (and therefore .223/5.56) for deer hunting.

[Cool Breeze]

Many locales have restrictions on caliber preventing the use of .22-caliber (and therefore .223/5.56) for deer hunting.
Roger that. Thanks.

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