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View Full Version : Gravity assistance for empty mag drop (specifically, on Gen4 Glock 19) ?



LeeC
11-21-2011, 08:34 PM
I press the mag release button on my month old Gen4 Glock 19 magazine that is fully loaded with 15 rounds, and "szzzzip"--out it slides nicely with no assistance required. Gravity beats friction every time. But when I do the same thing with a locked back slide and empty mag, friction usually wins. I creatively considered casting up some custom weighted magazine base plates. And while I thought that idea must surely be a comical overkill, apparently some folks do just that (http://garagegunsmithing.com/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=54&jfile=viewtopic.php&f=31&t=1307). I also thought about casting all lead dummy rounds and putting a few of those in front of live ones, but then I'd have to rack the slide on every reload and that won't be faster than using a weak hand assist to dump the empty mag.

Are there some techniques or third party mods required to drop mags on Glocks without weak hand assistance? I tried helping gravity with a wrist flick, but that was mostly unsuccessful. Then I thought I had a solution with a quick, short chop downward on the top of my weak hand, but after a couple of those my strong hand wrist started to hurt. Lube in the mag well sounds like a bad idea. The mags and well are clean.

Thoughts?

JV_
11-21-2011, 08:37 PM
Is the mag well vertical when dropping the mag, or is it canted?

Chris Rhines
11-21-2011, 08:54 PM
Strip the frame completely. Glue some medium-grit sandpaper to the magazine body, then run it in and out of the magwell until it loosens up. Seriously.

-C

LeeC
11-21-2011, 09:13 PM
Is the mag well vertical when dropping the mag, or is it canted?

Vertical.

LeeC
11-21-2011, 09:36 PM
Strip the frame completely. Glue some medium-grit sandpaper to the magazine body, then run it in and out of the magwell until it loosens up. Seriously.

-C

Thanks Chris. I have to admit that I laughed out loud until I got to the "seriously." Increasing the size of the mag well slightly sounds like a viable solution, at least on the surface. However, it makes me wonder. Is this something that some models of some makes of gun need, or an out-of-tolerance manufacturing issue? Also, "medium-grit" sandpaper (P60 or P80) is fairly thick stuff. Do you suppose that after increasing the size of the magazine by that thickness, it will actually fit into the magazine well? Is this a procedure you have performed before. Seriously?

Magsz
11-21-2011, 11:00 PM
Um...

When the slide is forward in battery and there are no rounds in the magazine the follower will push on the slide resulting in whiz bango, ejecting magazines.

When the slide is locked back you have nothing but gravity to work for you. Add in any angle other than straight up and down, ie straight vertical and friction starts working against gravity.

Instead of sanding your magwell apply armorall to your magazines. Once it "dries" you will have a slick magazine with no greasiness, no film, nothing but a lower coefficient of friction. :)

You might also want to work on the angle at which you reload as this can prevent magazines from reliably dropping.

Joseph B.
11-22-2011, 02:17 AM
There are several “techniques” for conducting a slide lock reload out there and many of them are very efficient and fast. However, depending on your shooting environment, purpose for the use of the pistol and training regime, will determine the best advice.

Absolutely good advice on “insuring the magazine well is free and clear of debris and or glues, sticky chemicals, etc” as well as adjusting your position to ensure clear path for the magazine to fall free.

What is needed is to fully understand your intent for the pistol (i.e. defensive, tactical, competition, etc). Making modifications for winning matches is one thing, but making modifications for winning gunfights is another. I personally do not recommend modifications to a carry pistol, unless the shooter is 1) extremely experienced and well trained, and 2) fully understands how the modification will affect the pistol and possibly change the functions or reliability, and the big one being the tactical effectiveness of the pistol.

Now understanding that this is simply an “I want my magazine to fall free at slide lock” I would say there are two things to understand. The first is that a new pistol that has not had the wear from use will always be tighter in tolerances and will have issues such as gravity not working to release a mag at slide lock. The other is training in how you release the magazine so that you can insure the mag will be ejected from the mag well every time.

For tactical use (i.e. defensive carry, LE, Mil, ect) I teach to “kick the magazine” when pressing the magazine release button. Similar to what you will see in the MAGPUL video’s of Haley turning his rifle rapidly while pressing the magazine release button, thus allowing gravitational pull to toss the magazine clear. The difference in what I teach is that you would do the same, but rotating your hand to throw the magazine away from the body and not toward your reloading side. This allows you to ensure a proper ejection of the magazine from the well, and keeps it from hitting you in the shoulder or face.

Step 1: Press magazine release.
Step 2: Rotate wrist (butt of pistol) outward quickly and aggressively.
Step 3: Rotate wrist back into work space (eye level/magwell facing reload side).

This is not a “go as fast as you can for USPSA” type reload, this is a guarantee that you don’t have a magazine in the well while reloading in a gunfight type reload. Is it slower? A very small tad-bit, for me about a tenth of a second. However, I have practiced this a lot and made it part of my training regime. Individuals new to this technique may see a slower time until they ingrain it into muscle memory, but the end result is you will never have to worry about stripping an empty mag with a loaded mag in your reload hand. lol:eek:

I wish I had some video to post here; I am still working on getting the media stuff together. But I will try and put some pictures (possibly a video) together and post them soon…

JV_
11-22-2011, 05:20 AM
I would also verify your mag doesn't have a plastic burr at the base of the magazine catch cut-out.

After a bit of use, that burr can cause enough extra drag to stop it from dropping free. I trim mine flush with a razor blade.


-Sent using Tapatalk.

LittleLebowski
11-22-2011, 07:24 AM
A coat of FrogLube rubbed onto the surfaces mentioned fixed this for me.

Chris Rhines
11-22-2011, 07:26 AM
Is this something that some models of some makes of gun need, or an out-of-tolerance manufacturing issue? I've needed to do it on every Glock I've ever owned. I have no idea if the sticky magazine thing is a tolerance problem, a deliberate design choice, or just something that Glock regards as 'not important enough to fix.' I've seen many, many Glocks with the same issue, though.


Also, "medium-grit" sandpaper (P60 or P80) is fairly thick stuff. Do you suppose that after increasing the size of the magazine by that thickness, it will actually fit into the magazine well? Sorry, I was thinking medium-grit in metalworking terms. I start with 180-grit wet-dry paper. You don't want to go to fine, because you don't want to polish the inside of the magwell - that can actually increase friction between the magwell and magazine. I cut a piece to fit on the side of the magazine, then glue it on with Elmer's Spray Adhesive. Run it into the magwell a few times, until it loosens up. Then add a similar piece to the other side of the magazine, and repeat. Rinse and dry the frame before reassembling it.


Is this a procedure you have performed before. Seriously? Seriously. I've done it to four different Glocks, and it worked flawlessly on all of them. Be careful, go slowly, and if you have any doubts, take your gun to a professional.

-C

LeeC
11-22-2011, 09:21 AM
Magsz, LittleLebowski -- Thanks for the lube suggestions.

Magsz -- didn't know about the assist from the follower pushing on the slide while in battery, good point.

Joseph --
"the end result is you will never have to worry about stripping an empty mag with a loaded mag in your reload hand. lol" Yeah, already been there, done that. My primary interest is defensive carry, so I'll give your technique a try. Thanks much for taking the time to spell it out for me.

JV -- I'll check for mag burs, thanks for the tip.

Chris -- My bad for not thinking in metalworking terms. I've done way more sanding with sanded paper which is why that came to mind. Plus, I hadn't read your profile, which I should have done before replying, because I thought there was a chance that you were just joking. I'm saving your recommendation as a more advanced remediation if I'm still having trouble after applying the other good tips.

Thanks all. What a helpful forum! :cool:

Lee

JV_
11-22-2011, 09:27 AM
When the slide is locked back you have nothing but gravity to work for you.I wouldn't say it's nothing but gravity, you do have a little bit of spring tension from the follower pushing UP on the slide release. If you check out a brand new Glock, the mags pop out of the mag well pretty nicely. After the mag springs set-in a little, it's less forceful.

Byron
11-23-2011, 10:45 AM
I start with 180-grit wet-dry paper. You don't want to go to fine, because you don't want to polish the inside of the magwell - that can actually increase friction between the magwell and magazine.
Hey Chris - would you mind expanding your thoughts on this statement? In my mind, polishing a surface = less friction, though I recognize that is probably overly simplistic.

What is happening that causes a smoothly polished plastic surface to produce more friction than a roughly sanded one? Is it simply that the polished surface has more surface area that is making contact with the magazine?

Zhurdan
11-23-2011, 01:15 PM
If you're going to sand... go super slow. You can't sand some back on. ;)

LeeC
11-25-2011, 04:30 PM
If you're going to sand... go super slow. You can't sand some back on. ;)

Roger that. :eek:

I unloaded all seven of my 15-round Glock factory mags to do more testing on. Not exactly "brand new" but have only had about 2,000 rounds divided evenly among them, all on indoor, clean range floors. Figured out one reason why my gravity-only mag drop was hit or miss. I have two Gen3 mags and five Gen4 mags.

Only visible difference is the extra notch on the Gen4 models for lefties. Both of the Gen3 mags drop without a problem. I thought maybe I was pushing the release so hard that I was binding from the opposite side, since the Gen4 mags are notched on both sides, but couldn't prove that theory. Four out of five of the Gen4 mags won't drop if empty, even after generously lubing with Ballistol (what I had on hand). I closely compared the one Gen4 mag that would drop empty to the four that would not, and could not find a difference.

Just out of curiosity, I figured out that it takes 9 or 10 rounds before the rest of the Gen4 mags will drop with gravity alone, and no sane amount of wrist flipping would do the job. I don't have calipers to check for slight dimensional differences between the mags, but increasing the size of the mag well very slightly sounds like a simple solution with no down side other than the effort to make it so.

So-o-o-o, I think I'll be stripping down to the frame and sanding down the mag well just a tad as Chris suggested.

ToddG
11-28-2011, 07:52 AM
FWIW, quite a few folks have had to tweak the internal angle on the mag button for the gen4 guns because it can hang up the mags on occasion.

LeeC
11-28-2011, 10:52 AM
FWIW, quite a few folks have had to tweak the internal angle on the mag button for the gen4 guns because it can hang up the mags on occasion.

Todd, by tweak the internal angle, do you mean to remove some material from the mag engagement end of the button, such as the area shown in red below? Stock parts look pretty much 90 degrees on both the button and mag on the horizontal face that retains the mag. Seems like shaving a few degrees away would help free the mag towards the end of the button press. Could also be that my thumb gets tired and I'm not pressing as hard.

286

I stripped the gun down to the frame and sanded the well some with 3M #400 wet/dry paper for plastics. That has mostly solved the problem but I did have one mag not drop during range drills yesterday. I should have stopped and noted the mag number but was focused on the drill and tossed it to the floor with the others. Will have to run through the mags to see if I can find the oddball, if the problem is even in the mag. Before sanding, one of the gen3 mags would drop all of the time and the other most of the time, but I couldn't see any difference with the naked eye. After sanding, all mags dropped with gravity only during the test at home. I added the Grip Force Adapter where I had no adapter before, so that moved the end of my thumb back a tiny bit also, compared to the bare frame, but probably not enough to make any difference.

ToddG
11-28-2011, 03:20 PM
LeeC -- It was more along the back top edge of the contact point between the mag and the catch. The catches sometimes seem to be just a bit too long there and won't drop mags properly unless the button is held down throughout the entire drop.

LeeC
12-01-2011, 07:28 AM
ToddG

LeeC -- It was more along the back top edge of the contact point between the mag and the catch. The catches sometimes seem to be just a bit too long there and won't drop mags properly unless the button is held down throughout the entire drop.




Todd -- that sounds like a slightly different problem, because once my mag starts to drop, it always drops completely. But when it hangs, no amount of button pushing will free it up and get it started dropping without a tug on the bottom of the mag. But both malfunctions are probably caused by the same issue of the button not completely disengaging and clearing the mag.

I ran drills with my Glock 19 on Monday with the newly sanded magazine well. Looks like I'm almost there but still have some minor mystery malfunction. One of six mags failed to drop. Pushed release button several times, snapped gun downward, but couldn't get the mag out without left-hand assist. So I set that one (#6) aside and didn't use it anymore. Back at home, the same mag dropped fine. So I emptied all 6 mags and ran through a couple dozen empty mag gravity drop tests, and was able to reproduce the hang on a different magazine (#1).

Since it seems that the mag may sometimes be getting snagged on the very end of the release button, I'm going to try shaving that down a bit to see if it solves the problem. If I screw it up, I'm only out about $5. (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2GLSP07534-1.html)

LeeC
12-04-2011, 05:40 PM
On Friday, I reduced the size of the mag release button surfaces that contact the magazine, and sanded the well a bit more. Did a couple dozen dry runs at home and had no failures to drop mags. Had no failures at the range either. However, Saturday during a drill, I had a mag hang on me again. Major frustration. I'm fighting a head cold, so I didn't investigate further after the range.

Today, Sunday, I just did dry runs again at home and kept going for about 10 minutes, just running through slide lock mag drops and reloads on empty mags. I was beginning to wonder if the heat of live fire was somehow changing things, and then I had a mag hang. I think I figured out what is going on. There were mechanical issues with the mags catching and I've taken care of those with the sanding. But there was also operator error creeping in.

I noticed that because my thumb can just barely reach the mag release button, over time I was starting to cheat and not rotate my grip any for the reload. This works for a little while but my wrists are damaged from carpal tunnel syndrome, so it doesn't take many stress reps stretching to depress the button before fatigue sets in. Because my wrists are screwed up, I don't have normal pressure feedback and rely somewhat on discomfort level to gauge applied pressure. Didn't even think about all that until just now. As my wrist was getting tired from abnormal thumb extension, the discomfort level was tricking me into thinking I was applying the same pressure on every release press, but in reality the pressure was falling off with fatigue. Like the doctor says, if it hurts when you do that, then don't do that!

I think if I make a conscious effort to rotate my grip slightly for the reload, the problem is solved.

Thanks,

Lee

Joseph B.
12-05-2011, 06:42 AM
I think if I make a conscious effort to rotate my grip slightly for the reload, the problem is solved.





Or you could try to use your other thumb, a lot of people do it that way.

JM Campbell
12-05-2011, 09:38 AM
Might this be a solution for you?

Gen4 extended mag release:

http://www.glockworld.com/item/528699_TopGlock_Parts_TGSCOMGlockGen4Magreleasepla stic.aspx

LeeC
12-07-2011, 07:41 PM
Or you could try to use your other thumb, a lot of people do it that way.


Thanks, I'm glad you said that. I thought to try that during dry drills and it worked pretty well for me, but I didn't want to start learning a bad habit. Good to know that is an option. I'll try both and see which works better.

LeeC
12-07-2011, 07:53 PM
Might this be a solution for you?

Gen4 extended mag release:

http://www.glockworld.com/item/528699_TopGlock_Parts_TGSCOMGlockGen4Magreleasepla stic.aspx

Interesting. So how does this differ from the stock button? Does it only extend the button further out from the frame? Seems like it couldn't sit further back from the trigger without requiring the hole in the grip to be enlarged.

ToddG
12-07-2011, 10:12 PM
Ironically enough, I had a mag fail to fall while demoing the FAST today. I discovered the mag had failed to drop when the fresh mag crashed into it, sending the partially-dropped mag back into the gun where it latched in place and needed me to hit the mag button again to dislodge.

It was hilarious... :mad:

LeeC
12-07-2011, 10:40 PM
Ironically enough, I had a mag fail to fall while demoing the FAST today. I discovered the mag had failed to drop when the fresh mag crashed into it, sending the partially-dropped mag back into the gun where it latched in place and needed me to hit the mag button again to dislodge.

It was hilarious... :mad:

Nice! LOL.. Where's a camera when you need it most. Would love to have seen that. Todd -- thanks so much for sharing that. Not only did I get a much needed laugh, but it helps put things into perspective for me. If you can still manage to do that once in a blue moon, I won't feel as bad when I do it. :D

Magsz
12-07-2011, 10:40 PM
Ironically enough, I had a mag fail to fall while demoing the FAST today. I discovered the mag had failed to drop when the fresh mag crashed into it, sending the partially-dropped mag back into the gun where it latched in place and needed me to hit the mag button again to dislodge.

It was hilarious... :mad:

Todd,

Just do this:

Its called the hammer smash reload... Arf.. :D :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEg2wgSINro

LeeC
12-08-2011, 05:45 PM
Last edited by Magsz; 12-07-2011 at 10:43 PM. Reason: Bad Hotlink.

I was looking forward to seeing the "hammer smash reload" but the link still points to a video with no mag drop failures.

Magsz
12-08-2011, 11:45 PM
Its not a complete failure but if you watch closely i am shaking the hell out of the pistol and doing a hammer motion with my hand to get the magazines to drop.

The Glock definitely does not drop magazines like a P30 or an M&P.

Oh to have metal magazines again. :)

LeeC
01-12-2012, 07:58 AM
Had trouble with "mag freeze" again last night at the range. The first one was in the middle of a FAST drill :mad: The second time it happened, I noticed the cause--my generic Glockmeister type plug had slipped down some. I pressed it back into place and the problem went away. I noticed that this plug tends to slip down over time and I have to press it back up into place. Don't know if this is typical or the result of buying a cheap knock-off part.

Anybody have any comments, experience or recommendations about a different Glock 19 plug, maybe with some extra weight and a set screw?

JV_
01-12-2012, 08:01 AM
or the result of buying a cheap knock-off part.The GlockMeister part, an original, has a protrusion that snaps in to the lanyard hole in the back strap. Unless it breaks, it's not going to slip, it takes a lot of force to depress that piece when removing.

I would recommend a GlockMeister plug. IMO: It's one of the best flush fitting plug on the market. If you call them, you can get $2 shipping for orders less than $20.