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Mr_White
10-21-2016, 10:42 AM
Week 187: Draw and Shoot Challenge 2

Results may be posted until November 21st, 2016.

Designed by: Gabe White
Range: 7 yards
Target: USPSA Metric or IDPA target with added CNS zone AND NO SHOOTS - see below -
Start Position: Holstered
Rounds Fired: 34

These are some short and simple drawing and shooting sequences that we'll use as a quick test, same as in DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge. Let's see how well you can do in terms of accuracy, consistency, and speed, but now with (admittedly static) no-shoots very close to the target!

First, set up your target. Use an IDPA target or USPSA Metric target. Alternatively, you can use another silhouette target as long as it has a similarly-sized A/-0 zone in the body. Whatever target you use, add a 3x5 or similar (4" circle, etc) to the head for use as a CNS zone. If you want to use the upper A-zone on a USPSA Metric target, that's fine, though it is a bit smaller than the intended CNS zone. Add two no-shoots to either side of the A-zone, so that they are effectively blocking most of the C and D-zones, like this:

https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5523/30470246725_a173452638_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/NqxYMt)022 (https://flic.kr/p/NqxYMt) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

Alternatively, if it is too difficult to arrange the targets like that, you can simply count C and D-zone hits as no-shoot hits instead.

Start with your handgun loaded and holstered. Concealment is optional but it will come into play during scoring. Your hands can be hanging naturally, at a high torso position, or at a surrender position - shooter's choice. Extra shots are not allowed. Record your time and score your target after each string. A/-0 zone hits are no penalty. B/C/-1 zone hits are + 0.25 seconds each. D/-3 zone hits are + 1 second each. Misses are + 2 seconds each. No Shoot hits are + 50 seconds each. Head shots that land in the body count as misses. Body shots that land in the head are lucky shots and will be scored. Each string you shoot from concealment gets a 0.25 second bonus (subtraction) from your score - this is simply an attempt at roughly equalizing concealed and open carry.

Example 1: You are not using concealment, and you shoot String 1 (Bill Drill) in 4.50 seconds with 5 As and 1 no-shoot hit. Your score would be 54.50 seconds (4.50 + 50.00 for the no-shoot.)

Example 2: You are shooting from concealment, and you shoot String 3 (Failure to Stop) in 2.25 seconds with 2 As and 1 B (head shot is in the head but outside the CNS zone.) Your score would be 2.25 seconds (2.25 + 0.25 for the B, but - 0.25 for the concealment.)

Example 3: You are shooting from concealment, and you shoot String 7 (4 body 2 head) in 2.50 seconds, with 2 As, 1 C, 1 D, and 2 Bs. Your score would be 4.00 (2.50 + .25 for the C, + 1.0 for the D, + .50 for the two Bs, but - 0.25 for the concealment.)

Here's the actual drill:

String 1: At the beep, draw and shoot 6 rounds to the body (Bill Drill.)
String 2: Repeat String 1.
String 3: At the beep, draw and shoot 2 rounds to the body and 1 round to the head (Failure to Stop.)
String 4: Repeat String 3.
String 5: At the beep, draw and shoot 2 rounds to the head.
String 6: Repeat String 5.
String 7: At the beep, draw and shoot 4 rounds to the body and 2 rounds to the head.
String 8: Repeat String 7.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)
Target used
Time, penalties, and total score for String 1
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8
Grand Total Score of all strings together
Anything you noticed - Especially, if you shot DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge, take a moment and notice how your shooting was affected by the presence of close no-shoots.

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

Mr_White
10-21-2016, 04:46 PM
Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
USPSA Metric w/ added no-shoots
Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 2.34 (6A) - .25 = 2.09
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.35 (6A) - .25 = 2.10
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 2.02 (3A) - .25 = 1.77
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 2.05 (3A) - .25 = 1.80
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.75 (2A) - .25 = 1.50
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.82 (2A) - .25 = 1.57
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 3.03 (5A1B) - .25 + .25 = 3.03
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 3.36 (6A) - .25 = 3.11
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 16.97
Anything you noticed - Especially, if you shot DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge, take a moment and notice how your shooting was affected by the presence of close no-shoots.: Looks like my final score differs from the same drill series without the no-shoots by about 15%, as I move from shooting for As, compared to guaranteeing As.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsA3cl54Kbo

jetfire
10-21-2016, 05:11 PM
Scoring question on the no shoots. Are we using USPSA rules to score the no-shoots? So if I get a partial hit on a no-shoot that cuts the perf but also cuts the perf on the target, I get credit for the hit?

Mr_White
10-21-2016, 05:15 PM
Scoring question on the no shoots. Are we using USPSA rules to score the no-shoots? So if I get a partial hit on a no-shoot that cuts the perf but also cuts the perf on the target, I get credit for the hit?

Yep, that is what I would go with.

backtrail540
10-21-2016, 05:26 PM
Glock 17 gen 3 chopped to 19 length/stippled
JMCK wingclaw aiwb concealed under a fleece
USPSA metric with 3x5 in headbox

String 1 - 3.98 clean = 3.73
String 2 - 3.66 clean = 3.41
String 3 - 2.72 clean = 2.47
String 4 - 2.93 1b = 2.93
String 5 - 2.54 clean = 2.29
String 6 - 2.46 clean = 2.21
String 7 - 3.89 1b = 3.89
String 8 - 4.06 1b = 4.06

Total time = 24.99


The word of the day was deliberateness. I had a good day shooting today. I warmed up with the defoor pistol test 1 and finally passed all 4 strings consecutively, which is a first for me as I generally can pass any of the strings but lacked the consistency to put it all together in the same run. Then I did one of my recent favorite drills, a 3x5 in 5 drill that was a previous dotw from way back and passed at 15 yards. At this point I was feeling good and didn't want to screw things up. I shot at a "pissed if I miss" vs a "hope i hit" pace(credit the terminology to another PF member whom I can't recall at this time, possibly JV?) and the only dropped shots were still hits in the head box albeit out of the 3x5 card(all three about a quarter to half inch low). I felt as this was as close as I can get to guaranteeing hits without going impractically slow, or at least a good balance between the two.

MVS
10-22-2016, 12:16 PM
Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used) Gen3G19 w/RMR Fricke AIWB, Pullover concealment
Target used USPSA with 3X5 on head.
Time, penalties, and total score for String 1 4.92-.25+50 (Dang!)=54.67
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2 5.27-.25=5.02
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3 3.43-.25=3.18
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4 3.11-.25=2.86
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5 2.30-.25+.25(B)=2.3
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6 2.78-.25=2.53
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7 5.39-.25=5.14
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8 4.65-.25=4.4
Grand Total Score of all strings together 80.1
Anything you noticed - Total mind trip. After I hit that no shoot on the first one I played it too safe and slow. How did I hit the no shoot on that first run when I am normally slow but accurate? The reason was a bad trigger press, why I am not sure. I do know that A zone seemed a lot smaller with those no shoots on both sides.

MDS
10-22-2016, 10:20 PM
Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)
G17Gen4 from SME under tshirt.

Target used
PT target; larger circle = body hit, anything out of that is no-shoot; 3x5 = head hit, anything in square is -.25s

Time, penalties, and total score

String 1: 4.22 (6A) -.25 = 3.97
String 2: 3.68 (5A 1NS) -.25 +50 = 53.43
String 3: 3.26 (2A) -.25 = 3.01
String 4: 3.38 (2A) -.25 = 3.13
String 5: 2.44 (1A 1B) +.25 -.25 = 2.44
String 6: 3.35 (2A) -.25 = 3.10
String 7: 3.99 (6A) -.25 = 3.74
String 8: 4.79 (6A) -.25 = 4.54


Grand Total Score of all strings together: 77.36

Anything you noticed - Especially, if you shot DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge, take a moment and notice how your shooting was affected by the presence of close no-shoots.

I wish I would have set up actual no-shoots, because the tight targeting didn't really mess with my head. I mean, I shot the bill drills pretty much on the edge of accuracy, and took a catastrophic +50, possibly because the lack of actual no-shoot didn't trigger my brain to be more careful than usual. After that I slowed do make more sure I got my hits, but it was all cold calculation and no psychological feeling of catastrophe potential, you know? Anyway, it's a long story but I wasn't wearing a real belt and my draws were crap, which really did mess with my shooting...

jetfire
10-28-2016, 05:56 PM
Week 187: Draw and Shoot Challenge 2

Results may be posted until November 21st, 2016.

Designed by: Gabe White
Range: 7 yards
Target: USPSA Metric or IDPA target with added CNS zone AND NO SHOOTS - see below -
Start Position: Holstered
Rounds Fired: 34

These are some short and simple drawing and shooting sequences that we'll use as a quick test, same as in DotW 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge. Let's see how well you can do in terms of accuracy, consistency, and speed, but now with (admittedly static) no-shoots very close to the target!

First, set up your target. Use an IDPA target or USPSA Metric target. Alternatively, you can use another silhouette target as long as it has a similarly-sized A/-0 zone in the body. Whatever target you use, add a 3x5 or similar (4" circle, etc) to the head for use as a CNS zone. If you want to use the upper A-zone on a USPSA Metric target, that's fine, though it is a bit smaller than the intended CNS zone. Add two no-shoots to either side of the A-zone, so that they are effectively blocking most of the C and D-zones, like this:

Start with your handgun loaded and holstered. Concealment is optional but it will come into play during scoring. Your hands can be hanging naturally, at a high torso position, or at a surrender position - shooter's choice. Extra shots are not allowed. Record your time and score your target after each string. A/-0 zone hits are no penalty. B/C/-1 zone hits are + 0.25 seconds each. D/-3 zone hits are + 1 second each. Misses are + 2 seconds each. No Shoot hits are + 50 seconds each. Head shots that land in the body count as misses. Body shots that land in the head are lucky shots and will be scored. Each string you shoot from concealment gets a 0.25 second bonus (subtraction) from your score - this is simply an attempt at roughly equalizing concealed and open carry.


https://youtu.be/Qi2tvEF4MhQ

Equipment used: Dan Wesson Valkyrie Commander 9mm, CapArms Superior Range Ammo 9mm (https://gunway.com/product/9mm-superior-range-ammo/), CCC Shaggy AIWB holster, 5.11 pullover for concealment.
Target used: USPSA Metric, no no-shoots, C/D counted as no shoots.
Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 3.18-.25 (6A) = 2.93
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.98-.25 (6A) = 2.73
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 2.69-.25 (3A) = 2.44
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 2.85-.25 (3A) = 2.60
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 2.56-.25 (1A/1B) + .25 = 2.56
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 2.49-.25 (2A) = 2.24
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 4.00-.25 (6A) = 3.75
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 4.25-.25 (6A) = 4.00

Grand Total Score: 23.25

Anything you noticed - Even though I didn't shoot the previous DoTW that was related to this, knowing that the C-zone was essentially death for my score, I aimed my ass off on this drill. My final group in the chest A-zone was actually much smaller than it needed to be, as had I utilized the entire scoring area I could have maybe bought back a second or two. As it was I punched a fist sized group in the chest.

One note: I had a FTE that resulted in a double feed on the very first round of String 2, so I just said fuck it and re-shot the string for score.

Mickey
10-28-2016, 09:58 PM
Equipment used Beretta M-9

String 1-5.78
String 2-5.77 +50
String 3-4.83
String 4-7.22
String 5-4.75
String 6-3.49
String 7-6.82 +.50 +50
String 8-4.45

Total raw-43.11
Total with penalties 143.61
On string 2 I had a bad grip and let one get over a little too far and into a no-shoot. On string 7 I didn't get a good enough grip to deactivate the GLS and had to hustle to get the gun out. Well I hustled a little harder than I should have I clipped a no-shoot yet again and dropped one of the headshots. Overall my raw time was 11.03 slower than the first version.
11368

Luke
10-28-2016, 10:26 PM
I think there is a big difference between having the two no shoots and pretending there are no shoots


What say ye Gabe

Clobbersaurus
10-30-2016, 09:51 AM
I think it makes a difference! Us competition guys know that no-shoots are "A" sucking vortexes.

Also, I just realized I didn't post my results for this DOTW from my last range session.

Girsan, 124g 9mm, competition gear.

String 1: 2.46 + .25 + 50 = 52.70 :mad:
String 2: 2.64
String 3: 2.28 + 50 = 52.28 :mad:
String 4: 2.17
String 5: 1.85
String 6: 2.0 + .25 + .25 = 2.5
String 7: 3.20
String8: 3.14

Total time: 120.48

jetfire
10-31-2016, 11:12 AM
I think there is a big difference between having the two no shoots and pretending there are no shoots


What say ye Gabe

Not Gabe, but since I ran the drill without the no-shoots because my target carrier doesn't really allow for that sort of thing, I'd say "naw." The only way it would make a difference would be psychologically, since the target area is the same, and I knew that a shot in the C or D would be a +50 and death for my score. So I had to slow down and hammer only A-zone hits.

Luke
10-31-2016, 11:24 AM
Is there anyway you could run it again with the no shoots beside it? I'd love to know if it changes anything for you.

Mr_White
10-31-2016, 11:55 AM
I think there is a big difference between having the two no shoots and pretending there are no shoots


What say ye Gabe


Is there anyway you could run it again with the no shoots beside it? I'd love to know if it changes anything for you.

I hear you there Luke. I think that's a pretty interesting thing and probably depends on the person. I personally prefer to actively observe and act in accordance with Rule 4. If there's going to be the assumption that a shot that didn't hit the most desirable scoring zone is a total disaster and = FAIL effectively, then I want to put actual representations of no-shoots in the drill. When they are not there, it's hard for me to act like they are. I think it is just a psychological thing. In my daily life, I see lots of physical circumstances where there would be a massive issue with bystanders present, and also lots of physical circumstances where there are no bystanders and a clearly safe backstop. So I like setting up some drills that contain no foreground/background issues, and ones that do, and consciously acting in accordance with the spatial problem at hand.

To the technical point I think you are making, yes, I agree, and that's part of why I have the basic Draw and Shoot drills set up to favor shooting for As without delay. There's a clear foreground and background in that set of drills, and I think most people can have a stronger overall combination of accuracy and speed if there can be a low level of tolerance for shooting error (talking Cs here, not misses, that's important) as opposed to NO tolerance for error. Shooting without error is partly illusory, and to the extent one can go in that direction, it can cost a lot of time.

jetfire
10-31-2016, 12:35 PM
Is there anyway you could run it again with the no shoots beside it? I'd love to know if it changes anything for you.

Yeah, I think I can ghetto rig a target set up that will perform that task. Might just be some white sheets of paper taped to the target.