Week 8: Diminishing PAR Reloads

[ToddG]

Please read the rules (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1837-Drill-of-the-Week) before participating in this thread.

Week 8: Diminishing PAR 1-R-2
results may be posted until 11:59pm EST on Monday 28-November-2011.

origin unknown; this is a very common practice method for improving speed
Range: 7yd
Target: 6" circle (download a PDF version here (http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/6in-circ-1in-sq.pdf)
Start position: shooter's choice
Rounds fired: varies

You will need a shot timer for this drill and you will need to know how to operate the PAR function.

Like last week, this DotW is about pushing your speed. It works in a similar but different way.

Start position is up to the shooter but should be consistent throughout the drill. The 6" circle is placed at 7yd.

Begin with a PAR time that you can confidently hit the 6" circle, perform a reload (either a speed/in-battery reload or a slidelock reload), and get two more hits on the circle.

If you're successful, reduce the PAR time by 0.1 seconds. If you are not successful, increase the PAR by 0.1 seconds. Do not make incremental changes greater than 0.1 seconds even if your times are much farther from the PAR.

Continue the drill until you run out of ammo, hit a wall (you keep bouncing back between a few PAR times, getting hits at the slower speed but unable to pull it all off at the higher speed), or you get bored.

For example:


Draw and 1-R-2 with 3 second PAR. Got all hits.
Change PAR to 2.9, got all hits.
Change PAR to 2.8, got all hits.
Change PAR to 2.7, missed one or more.
Increase PAR to 2.8, got all hits.
Change PAR to 2.7 again, got all hits.
Change PAR to 2.6, missed one or more.
Increase PAR to 2.7... etc.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Start position (ready, open holster, concealed, retention holster)
Type of reload (speed/in-battery or slidelock)
Starting PAR
Best PAR (all hits)
# of rounds fired total


Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

[ToddG]

Start position: concealed from CCC Shaggy, untucked polog
Type of reload: slidelock
Starting PAR: 3.5 seconds
Best PAR (all hits): 3.1 seconds
# of rounds fired total: 75

This absolutely kicked my butt today. I had so many bad reloads I actually quit the drill and spent a box of ammo just working my 1-R-2 slow fire. Finding the 6" circle in the 8" circle of the PT target was really tough for me today.

I went from 3.5 to 3.1 in about ten runs, then bounced back and forth between 3.3 and 3.5 until I finally decided to rework the fundamentals.

[BaiHu]

Just a quick clarification.
When you say 1-r-2, does that mean 1 shot, reload and then 1 shot again?
I was working this drill for a bit and I went through about 50 rounds and realized I might have been doing it wrong.
I was doing: draw, fire, reload, fire 2 shots. :o

[JV_]

I was doing: draw, fire, reload, fire 2 shots. :oThis is correct, 3 rounds total. You fire 2 shots after the reload because it's harder to cheat the grip. You can get a sub-par grip after the reload, and still get off one shot, it's much harder if you're firing 2.

[C45P312]

Start position: Surrender Position with G17 in 6004 Holster
Type of reload: Slidelock
Starting PAR: 6 sec
Best PAR (all hits): 5.1
# of rounds fired total: 33

Did this cold this morning at work. Man, still not use to drawing from retention. Reloads could have been quicker as well.

[ToddG]

When you say 1-r-2, does that mean 1 shot, reload and then 1 shot again?

Nope:


hit the 6" circle, perform a reload (either a speed/in-battery reload or a slidelock reload), and get two more hits on the circle.

[Gideon_459]

Start position: concealed, CCC shaggy, untucked flannel shirt
Type of reload: slide lock
Starting par: 5.8
Best par: 4.8 (4.79; 2.16, 2.40, .23)
Rounds fired: 48

Really enjoyed this drill. After the first few runs I took a sharpie and blacked out the rear sight on my USP. Made picking up the front sight a little easier. This drill will definitely become a part of my regular practice.

[jthhapkido]

Hands at sides, Gen 4 G17 in a BladeTech DOH, CR Speed belt and mag in a CR Speed Versa-pouch (typical USPSA Production rig)
Speed reload (not really "speed" when I do it)
Starting PAR: 4.05 (just shot it comfortably, and used that PAR to start)
Best PAR (all hits): 3.25
# rounds fired: 48 rounds

...blew a couple early on, settled down and got hits, then reached 3.25 and pretty much stayed there. Went down then up then down then up---just bounced around 3.25.

I wish I could use the excuse "It was dark!" because it was, but that wasn't really the problem. My reloads ranged from 1.63 to 1.98, and that was the real problem.

I also was an idiot who printed out several 6" circle targets to use, but forgot them at home, so I used the small inner circle on a standard paper plate. A little small, but close enough to 6" to do the job.

Time to go dryfire practice some reloads on the clock.

[Stuffbreaker]

Start position: Concealed from T-shirt , CB Supertuck at 3:30 - HK P30LS V3 9mm in Condition 1
Type of reload: Slidelock
Starting PAR: 4.5 seconds
Best PAR (all hits): 4.3 seconds
# of rounds fired total: 30

I set out to run 60 rounds with this drill, but lost interest early on as I bounced around my starting PAR. After the DotW, I stepped on the gas for another ten strings of 1-R-2. My best clean run was 3.93 with several 3.8-ish at (-1). Though I didn't enjoy the initial drill much, it nudged me along my way to self improvement. Just two months ago I struggled to break 4.5 seconds in a 1-R-1, but now that PAR is my comfort zone for a 1-R-2. The drills and dry fire seem to be working.

The basic movements of my draw and reload are very fast, but my sluggish press outs are killing my times. This drill worked those areas hard.

[Serpico1985]

Start position: AIWB CCC Looper under a t-shirt, CCC BMC also under t-shirt
Type of reload: slide-lock
Starting PAR: 5.00
Best PAR (all hits): 4.70
# of rounds fired total: 50

Good drill. Helped re-enforced what I already knew. If I don't get a proper grip on the mag before I draw it from the pouch the reload will have a %50 chance of going to $hit. A couple times when I was rushing it I nearly missed the entire magwell, holding the mag in a clam-shell type grip. Then when I do get the mag in I rush the shoots to make par and big surprise I drop'em. Nothing makes you feel better than missing the entire magwell on a reload with a bunch of other shooters standing around.

[jetfire]

Start position: Aimed in on target, spare mag concealed
Type of reload: Slide-lock
Starting PAR: 2.75 seconds
Best PAR: 2.15
# of rounds fired total: 45

The six inch circle was driving me NUTS on this drill. I had 3 or 4 runs where all my hits were on the 8 inch circle that surrounds it. The big struggle for me was waiting until the sights were back on target for the first shot following the reload. In both IDPA and USPSA, I've practiced to accept a C or a -1 as an acceptable hit for the first shot off a reload when I'm really cranking for speed. For example, a breakdown of reloads where I'd have a hit outside the 6 inch circle had reload times around 1.65 seconds. Reloads where I'd get both hits were 1.8-2.00. In USPSA, taking a charlie there is totally worth it if I'm standing and shooting static targets.

I was amazed at the difference between hitting an 8 inch circle and a 6 inch circle at 7 yards.

[rsa-otc]

Believe it or not it's a 25% or better decrease in target size. That can be allot.

[Mr_White]

The six inch circle was driving me NUTS on this drill. I had 3 or 4 runs where all my hits were on the 8 inch circle that surrounds it. The big struggle for me was waiting until the sights were back on target for the first shot following the reload. In both IDPA and USPSA, I've practiced to accept a C or a -1 as an acceptable hit for the first shot off a reload when I'm really cranking for speed. For example, a breakdown of reloads where I'd have a hit outside the 6 inch circle had reload times around 1.65 seconds. Reloads where I'd get both hits were 1.8-2.00. In USPSA, taking a charlie there is totally worth it if I'm standing and shooting static targets.

I was amazed at the difference between hitting an 8 inch circle and a 6 inch circle at 7 yards.


Believe it or not it's a 25% or better decrease in target size. That can be allot.

I've broken my mind on the 6" circle before too. Then I did the math and realized why it seems considerably harder.

Although the 6" circle is 25% smaller than the 8" circle by diameter, it is only 56% of the total area of an 8" circle (6" circle = 28.27 sq. in. area, 8" circle = 50.27 sq. in area.) I think this explains why a 6" circle seems to be such a significantly more difficult target than an 8" circle.

[jetfire]

Part of it is visual conditioning - I've spent in the order of 20k+ rounds this year shooting at 8 inch circles, so there's a tendency to shoot when I know the sights are good enough to get a hit there.

[JV_]

From Concealment (CCC Shaggy, Untucked Polo)
Slide Lock Reload
Starting PAR: 4.50s
Best Par: 3.90s
Round Count: 24

[Matt O]

Draw from concealment (t-shirt, iwb holster @ 3:00)
Slide-lock reload
Starting par: 5.5 seconds
Best par: 5.2 seconds
Rounds: 20

JV helped me spot a kink or two in my draw stroke after I had finished this drill. I didn't end up running this particular drill again after that, but my overall draw times were significantly faster and I think I'll see how that affects my 1-R-2 times next time I hit the range.

[JeffJ]

From concealment - untucked polo, CCC Shaggy
Starting par - 6.0
Best par - 5.3
Rounds fired 99

I liked this a lot, going to use this one more and use the principle on other drills

[JeffJ]

Part of it is visual conditioning - I've spent in the order of 20k+ rounds this year shooting at 8 inch circles, so there's a tendency to shoot when I know the sights are good enough to get a hit there.

In a similar vein, I've been spending a lot of time on 3x5 index cards and have the opposite thing going on. I've been having trouble ramping up the speed when going to a larger target.

[Prdator]

Start position: concealed closed front, from AIWB Keepers Kydex holster
Type of reload: slidelock, Glock Gen4 G34
Starting PAR: 3.7 seconds
Best PAR (all hits): 3.3
# of rounds fired total: 80ish,

Ive SO got to start doing my dry fire training agin!!!!! This drill drove me NUTS!!!!! and I basically gave up on the 6'' circle as I was using a 8'' circle target and thought I could make my self keep a tight group in the center of the 8'' circle, yea not so much.... So I backed up to about 9yds and ran the drill from there. had a few good runs at 3.3 and then the wheels fell off and I had to quit and run some very slow deliberate drill to get the mechanics down.

It did help though I ran a few other drill and then ran some FAST's (3) 4.75-1 body, 4.51 clean and 4.07-1 head (DANGIT!!)
Ill be starting my Dry fire agin soon.

[JConn]

Gen 3 Glock 19
Start position: closed front shirt strong side raven concealment iwb
Starting par: 5.1 (done as an average of 5 clean runs. Average was actually 5 but I thought I would give myself room)
Best time: 5.0
Rounds fired: about 50

Could not do this. People next to me decided it was a good time to put 150 rounds through their AR pistol w/ a 7.5 inch barrel and a battlecomp. I just gave up after about 35 rounds because I was getting a headache. I tried to focus and do well, but it just wasn't happening.

[fuse]

People next to me decided it was a good time to put 150 rounds through their AR pistol w/ a 7.5 inch barrel and a battlecomp. I just gave up after about 35 rounds because I was getting a headache. I tried to focus and do well, but it just wasn't happening.

I was there as well. It was insane. It was endless mag dump after mag dump. Splits were about .75-1.50, for 30 rounds at a time.

Muzzle flash? More like muzzle flamethrower. It was cartoon-like.

Fortunately the range gods smiled upon me, as I was far away at the end working with a new shooter. Had I been where Jconn was, I'm certain I wouldn't have gotten anything done.

This was by far the worst disruptive noise incident I have ever experienced at a range.

[JConn]

I should of just left... Not worth it at all, I essentially wasted 100 rounds.

[ToddG]

The six inch circle was driving me NUTS on this drill. I had 3 or 4 runs where all my hits were on the 8 inch circle that surrounds it. The big struggle for me was waiting until the sights were back on target for the first shot following the reload.
(...)
I was amazed at the difference between hitting an 8 inch circle and a 6 inch circle at 7 yards.

I had the same thing happening. It's the Q-PT's fault. It's not just the target size, it's the fact that there is a very distinct target zone (grey 8" circle) that tells you shoot me now! and inside of it is a non-distinct 6" circle that you're trying to hit without a good visual reference. After a lot of frustration, I took a black magic marker and colored in the whole outer ring between the 8" and 6" lines. That was good for another 0.2s (from 3.3 to 3.1) on my drill.

[rsa-otc]

That's it blame the target. :p

[jetfire]

Works for me. In all seriousness though, it's true - the line between the six inch circle and the 8 inch circle on the PT target isn't really distinct, but my vision can pick out the 8 inch circle just fine. When you couple that with me trying to "use all the target", I'll end up landing shots in the 8 inch circle but outside the sixer.

[CCT125US]

* Start position: ready
* Type of reload: slide lock
* Starting PAR: 4.00
* Best PAR: 3.30
* # of rounds fired total: 100ish

HKP30 V3 Heinie S8Q

This drill really helped with my mag. changes from concealment. I typically have an open front vest, but I reloaded from under a t-shirt on this drill. My reloads started out around 3sec with this new method, but by the end of the rounds I was getting consistent 2.15 reloads. I certainly know what does not work for me.... My best run was .76 / 2.06 / .35 = 3.17 I am very pleased with my reload times but my splits need work. Accuracy was good but I just felt like I could not go faster on the splits.

[LOKNLOD]

Start position: From the ready, with spare mag concealed in a DGL RC mag pouch under a hoodie.
Type of reload: slidelock
Starting PAR: 5.0 seconds (based on timing my very first run)
Best PAR (all hits): 4.5 seconds
# of rounds fired total: 45

Further notes: I was doing some pistol comparison data gathering today so I shot this twice, with both my P30 and G34. Since I didn't have a AIWB holster for the 34, and didn't want that to be a variable, I shot it from the ready. I loaded up 3 mags each and shot 45 rounds with each gun, towards the end of my range session, beginning with the 34. Oddly enough, I got the same results for both - a very slow 4.5 sec. Switching back and forth between the traditional glock mag release and the P30's paddle didn't do me any favors. After fumbling with the Glock reloads, about the time I started to get comfortable with the Glock I switched back to the P30 and fumbled several of those reloads very badly - had I started with the P30 which I'm more used to now, I probably would have had a lower start PAR and end PAR. All told, I was a little bit surprised by the matching times. I didn't write down all my splits, but in general, the trend seemed to be that the reload with the P30 was a little faster, but the shots and splits were a little faster with the Glock (lighter, shorter trigger).

[BaiHu]

Another good drill that makes me want to have better peripheral equipment (timer/vest/targets).

Gun: HKP30L (just sharpied the rear sights-YAY!)
Target: Thought I had a 6" in the bag, but it was 5" argghhh! (bad student)
Start: ready with uber tactical old navy vest-now for MEN!
Type of reload: speed/in-battery (too lazy, too slow and too few mags to run this using slide lock)
Par: 6 secs clean
Best par: 4.95 clean
Avg par: 5.44
# of rounds: 100ish

Wish I had written down the whole string, to check my reloads, but they avg typically around 2.3-2.5ish. I guess I'll try to do this again tomorrow.

[chris]

Start position: concealed @ the 2 o'clock position, with safariland m 27 holster (shot w\G19)
Type of reload: slidelock
Starting PAR: 9 sec.
Best PAR 7.34 --(8.59) (8.47) (7.34) (8.19) (7.58) (8.11)
# of rounds fired total: 18

Fun drill! It's been a rainy and very busy week, haven't had much time to hit the range lately :( But I was able to squeez in a little time to try out this weeks drill: I hit my best par in the middle of the exercise but wasn't able to keep it consistant. I'm going to add this drill to my "regular range routine" next month and see if i can bring those numbers down a bit!!

[JFK]

Start position holstered under concealment. Shaggy holster and blackhawk mag pouch.
Start par 3.5.
Best clean 3.1.
Rounds fired 18

[Corey]

Start position holstered, concealed under open front jacket.
Start par 6.0
Best clean 4.9
Rounds fired 96

Great drill for me. I learned how important it is to slow down a little and make sure you have a proper grip on the magazine before you pull it out. It helped reinforce keeping the gun in the right spot during the reload and it gave enough repititions to help build consistency. My fastest clean run was just under 4.5 and I had several clean runs in the 4.6 to 4.7 range. My par time did not get lower because I could not make those times consistently.

Learning has occurred. :cool:

[NickDrak]

Shot with my Gen4 G17
Start position: Duty holster (Safariland 6325 on 6004 Drop-Flex-Adapter)
Type of reload: Slidelock
Starting PAR: 5.00
Best PAR: 4.30
# of rounds fired total: Approx 80rds

[Slavex]

Starting holstered using my IPSC gear
Slide lock reload
Start Par: 4.5 seconds
Got down to 3.2 pretty quick
Best run was 2.85 clean. fastest not clean run, 2.56 with a shot way left and low. after 90 rounds my times started to climb again as I started missing the mag well on pretty much every run.
I would like to be sub 3 constantly for this, so it will now be a more regular part of my normal practice. Up until I dumped the one out, I had a good grouping going too.

[TCinVA]

So in stark contrast to the 3x5 drill last week where I did fantastic, on this one I lost all my mojo and sucked in truly epic fashion.

Starting: Holstered, CCC Shaggy under closed-front garment.
Reload: From slide lock
Start PAR: 3.5 seconds
Best clean: None. As in I didn't perform a single clean run, even after throwing out the par and taking 7 seconds to shoot the drill. For a guy who managed to shoot a 5.34 on the FAST drill a couple of weeks ago, that was a kick in the nuts.
# of rounds fired:: I fired about 30 rounds before I finally reached the point of wondering whether or not I could actually hit a target of any size on demand and gave up.

[BaiHu]

TCinVA,
Thank you so much for showing me that even the guys I look up to on the board 'have bad hair days'!
I love all of these drills but I never have enough time/ammo to do them-it's been getting dark earlier and I work late 5 out of 7 days.
Thanks for all the time you professionals put in so that wannabes like me can keep learning/climbing.
BH

[TCinVA]

My hair was totally awesome, as it always is.

It was my shooting that sucked.

[Mr_White]

Start position: hands hanging naturally, AIWB, concealed with closed-front shirt
Reload type: slidelock
Starting PAR: 4.0
Best PAR: 3.7
Total rounds fired: 96

This drill ate my lunch.

I found it hard to shoot the 6" circle very much differently than I do an 8" circle, which of course resulted in a bunch of misses. I did a poor job of looking at the sights on this drill. I target focused much too often. I should have just looked at the sights and tried to shoot the center of the target with every shot.

And I plagued myself by fumbling clearing my shirt when trying to retrieve the new magazine, over and over again.

If I didn't screw myself with one, it was the other.

The funny part was that I got the PAR all the way up to 4.6, after having started at 4.0 (one miss a bunch of runs in a row near the beginning.) Worked it back down to 3.7, then bounced between there and 4.2 before saying "EFF THIS!"

Apart of DotW, I'll have to do this one again sometime. Maybe I should work on my reloads first. Work...on...reloads...there's an idea!

[krazykiddjoe]

Gun: Glock 17 reduced/stippled, Heinie Straight 8 nightsights.
Gear: Open Top competition, No concealment, Comp-Tac Open top mag pouches.
Rounds fired: 36

Starting PAR:5.00

Best PAR: 4.50

At 4.5 I managed three clean.

At 4.4 and 4.3 I didn't manage any close to clean.

Ran last weeks DotW and was VERY happy with my 3x5 push. Also worked on pressouts, just not there for the reloads...

Looking forward to next weeks drill.

KKJ

[zml342]

Starting: Holstered, Comp-tac Infidel (AIWB) untucked polo
Reload: From slide lock
Start PAR: 5.0 seconds
Best clean: 4.9
#Rounds: 30

I sucked! Give me a 6" circle to shoot in to and I'm good. These pesky 3x5 cards are the death of me.

[ToddG]

I sucked! Give me a 6" circle to shoot in to and I'm good. These pesky 3x5 cards are the death of me.

Help available here (http://www.rif.org/).

See:


Week 8: Diminishing PAR 1-R-2
results may be posted until 11:59pm EST on Monday 28-November-2011.

origin unknown; this is a very common practice method for improving speed
Range: 7yd
Target: 6" circle (download a PDF version here (http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/6in-circ-1in-sq.pdf)
Start position: shooter's choice
Rounds fired: varies

[zml342]

wow.....

I give myself 3 demerits for that one...

[MDS]

wow.....

I give myself 3 demerits for that one...

Cool, I guess I don't have to feel bad for running most of my runs of this drill on a 3x5 card. Since I've never worked a reload on the clock, I didn't know what PAR to use. I ran the 1R2 drill a few times, at around 8s. After a bunch of reps on a 3x5 card, I remembered something my kindergarten teacher once said, sounded out the OP slowly, and learned something new about "attention to detail." My performance on the 6" circle was:

Start position: concealed from VMII, untucked dress shirt (really long tails get in your way big time!)
Type of reload: slidelock
Starting PAR: 8 seconds
Best PAR (all hits): 6.5 seconds
# of rounds fired total: 90

My consistency was abysmal. Even though my best PAR was 6.5s, my best run was 5.22s - I just couldn't pull off enough decent/clean runs in a row to bring the PAR much lower. I suspect my inconsistent press-out (which is the main thing I'm working on now) is the main culprit - I should have done my draw&1 with ball&dummy before this drill, instead of afterwards...

[DocGKR]

Start position: M&P45 concealed in Fricke Seraphim AIWB under soft shell jacket
Type of reload: slidelock
Starting PAR: 5.0 sec
Best PAR (all hits): 4.4 sec
# of rounds fired total: 50

Unfortunately I subluxated my L shoulder 10 days ago--same one that's had 2 prior surgeries, so was a bit under the weather this week. Draws were all 1.46-1.52 sec and splits on the post-reload shots were between .19-.22 sec, I lost most of my time with my very slow reloads today...

[ToddG]

Week 8 is now closed.

Week 9 (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2325-Week-9-3x5-Range-Push) has been posted.