Irons vs RDS on FAST - accuracy test - and FRE issue

[goteron]

First post here, looks to be a great place for information. I post on LF, M4c, and a few other places under the same UN.

Thanks for the great drill reference area as well.

So I went to the range today to test a few things. One was accuracy at 25 yards using WWB and +P so see if my pistols exhibited the early unlocking issue that is being discussed. I have heard from a reliable source that this affects less than 1% of the guns that leave S&W. The second was to run the FAST drill on two identical guns, irons vs RMR. A third issue came up during the range session that I will also discuss.

Gear:

2 M&P 9FS guns
Apex FSS
Apex RAM
Apex FRE
Stream light TLR-3
Small blackstrap with stippling.
1 gun has a 8moa LED non adjustable RMR, the second has ameriglo sights. (I am waiting to get the second one milled to be an identical backup as the RMR equipped gun is my carry gun)
Secret city weaponeers holster (iwb)
T-Shirt - concealed
Bladetech single mag pouch
Mags have 10-8 followers

I started shooting about 2.5 years ago, and probably have somewhere in the region of 20,000 combined pistol rounds in the last 2 years. However, I most of those are on RDS guns. I was an early adopter and moved away from irons quickly. I previously shot glocks, and switched to M&Ps after getting an opportunity to shoot one.

I had never run the FAST drill before today, and actually only learned about it Friday, when I printed 20 targets. I don't shoot competition at all, so was lucky enough to come across pistol training.com after following the rabbit trail on the early unlocking issue.

I missed the part about running it cold until just reviewing some things just now, so my best times were recorded after having run it 15 times.

I had just installed the FSS kits and FRE extractors a few nights ago. I dry fired the fast drill a few times to get a feel for the test and try out the new triggers, they are great by the way.

After setting up at the range I went to fire a mag to get a feel of the new triggers. The trigger was great, but the slide hung up on the way Back into battery. I conducted immediate action and fired again, same result.

Both guns were having this happen EVERY round. As the next round was being picked up, the bottom of the Apex extractor was gouging into the casing. The edge on both of them were so sharp it was not allowing the round to get centered and loaded into the chamber. I understand these are EDM'ed, and the edges come out sharp. I ended up having to use a leather man multi-tool to radius the edge of both extractors. Once this was done, the guns ran fine.

If you install an FRE, check this, with the tighter tolerances this radius (or lack thereof) really becomes an issue. I plan on removing and putting a cleaner radius / polish on the bottom edge.

After resolving this I tested the early unlocking on both guns. I shot both WWB and 124g +P ammo at 25 yards, supported on a barricade, I had wanted to bench the guns, however I didn't make it to the range with a 25y bench. I did not experience the vertical shift or huge groups. Accuracy was acceptable for me (4-5 inches with +P, 5-6 with WWB) - on the RDS gun, both were POA, POI.

Next I setup for the FAST drill, I started with the iron sight equipped gun. I ran sets of 3 tests with each gun for a total of 18 tests. All ammo was WWB for these.

All of these tests were shot on a CED timer, and all unwitnessed, I just recorded final times.

My average draw to first shot was somewhere in the 1.65 range - irons were slightly quicker here
My average reload time was somewhere in the 1.85 range

I had about 10 clean runs, the other 8 I ignored for these numbers, most were second shot head box misses as I pushed to get faster times. Those put me in the mid 7s.

First run with the irons gun was 5.38 - clean
I shot between 5.13 and 5.82 for the remaining tests - clean
Best two strings with irons were 5.13 and 5.18 - clean

First string with the RDS gun was 5.65 - clean
Best two times were 4.94 and 4.98 - clean
I shot between 5.35 - 5.72 - clean

I "felt" that irons were quicker on target, and that proved to be true. But my second head box shots were faster with the dot, and also more confident.

My splits on the COM shots were .25 average Range. With irons, the times were higher .2s, and constant, with the RDS, they started at .3 or so, and got quicker down to about .2.

The RDS always got quicker as the string progressed. I could feel getting into rhythm as the dot came back to target.

One of the biggest factors for me, especially for shots 1 and 2 is mechanical offset, at 7 yards it's quite a bit.

I feel much more confident in shooting with the RDS, the irons feel a little less "cluttered".

From previous shooting I knew I shot better with RDS, and about the same speed. I am glad I got to test this on the FAST, as it is a great cross section of skills, and has two sight acquisitions, accuracy, and speed.

I took away some specific things I needed to work on. And hope to do so with some dry fire exercises between now and the time I get to shoot again.

All of this is YMMV, but I hadn't seen a same gun comparison done, and I wanted some validation for myself that I was making a good decision switching to RDS. I believe they are the way of the future, and as the technology improves, I imagine they will be everywhere.

Thanks

I'll update this thread with some pictures of the case and extractor issue.

[JDM]

Interesting post.

I've been toying with the RDS idea for a while, but I need some trigger time on a pistol so equipped.

Who did the milling work on your gun, and what's the turn around time?

Smoking reloads!

[goteron]

Tony Smith of smiths guns in sunset lousisna did 3 glocks, and 3 M&Ps for me. He is local, quick, and cheap. Not to mention he does great work.

Also if anyone is interested I did a review between the DeltaPoint and RMR here.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81008&highlight=RMR+DeltaPoint

[JHC]

Great report. FWIW - the barricade shooting was very good. It will be interesting to see how it groups from the bench.

[goteron]

Here is a picture of the case, you can see the gouge that caused the stoppage.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/a0388f1b.jpg

Here is a picture of the modified extractor, as you can see, the radius job with the Leathman file is not perfectly smooth. But it worked. It was really difficult trying to round that with the extractor still in the gun.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/2ade0583.jpg

[YVK]

This is a very good data, one of the first ones, if not the first one that I've seen to date with concurrent irons-RDS comparison. Thanks for taking your time.

You're obviously a proficient shooter, irons or RDS. I've been shooting for twice longer than you have, and I am yet to break 6 seconds on F.A.S.T. 1.65 first shot and 1.85 reload sets you up to win a F.A.S.T. coin.

My only suggestion is to report all of your F.A.S.T. scores, not just clean ones. While you're alluding to what was the problem with those, for inquisitive minds it would be very interesting to see a whole data set rather than a better half of it.

I don't know what to read in 4-6 inch groups with RDS at 25. I kind of expect them to be smaller, at least, from my limited experience; so, maybe there is an accuracy issue with M&P? I think I'll shoot my RDS-enabled Glock again in near future just to see what groups I can get.

[Savage Hands]

For reference, this is what my FRE looks like after Randy installed it.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/35dfbbe0.jpg

[JHC]

You're obviously a proficient shooter . . .


I don't know what to read in 4-6 inch groups with RDS at 25. I kind of expect them to be smaller, at least, from my limited experience; so, maybe there is an accuracy issue with M&P? I think I'll shoot my RDS-enabled Glock again in near future just to see what groups I can get.

My first draft of first posted reply was edited because those groups caught me but on 2nd read, this was from the barricade position which I think is more like an offhand shot than it is like rested off sandbags etc so 4-6" isn't too shabby at all.

I think a fitted BarSto barrel is in his future. ;)

[goteron]

My first draft of first posted reply was edited because those groups caught me but on 2nd read, this was from the barricade position which I think is more like an offhand shot than it is like rested off sandbags etc so 4-6" isn't too shabby at all.

I think a fitted BarSto barrel is in his future. ;)

The frame of the gun was agaisnt the side of a very secure barricade. My support thumb was pressed agaisnt the barricade. It was all slow fire. I could not shoot those groups off-hand. I think sand-bags may be slightly better, but not that much.

I will most likely end up with two bar-sto barrels depending on the accuracy people are getting out of them.

I have two melonited storm lake barrels for my other two M&Ps, I will test my 9Pro next time as well and see what I get.

[goteron]

For reference, this is what my FRE looks like after Randy installed it.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/35dfbbe0.jpg

Interesting. It looks like it was hand polished.

I hope Randy chimes in here soon.

[Randy Lee]

Hi all,

Our extractor does require some fitting on some guns. When I install one on a customer's gun, I bevel the bottom point so that it allows a smoother transition when the rim begins sliding up and behind the hook. I also tend to polish in a lead in angle so that the angled case rim (as the round transitions from the bullet nose hitting the feed ramp and the back end of the cartridge clears the magazine lips) has a little more "wiggle room" .

Shenanigan's extractor was tuned in this manner.

On some guns, the extractor will drop right in and run, while others require a little tuning. It sounds like yours needed a little polishing...

-Randy

[goteron]

Randy, thanks for the information. I am going to check my other 2 and see how they are. Is it a variance in the roll pin hole placement relative to the breech face?

By the way, the FSS trigger is great!

PM sent

[YVK]

One of the biggest factors for me, especially for shots 1 and 2 is mechanical offset, at 7 yards it's quite a bit.
.

On a second re-read, this caught my attention. I assume mechanical offset means adjustment for line of sight to line of bore distance, similar to RDS on carbine? If that's the case, this would be something that I've not noticed on a pistol. I zeroed my RDS at 21 feet and that zero proved true all the way to 25 yards, as far as I remember. Then again, my experience with RDS is rather limited and I could be wrong.

[goteron]

Exactly like a carbine, except you are working with .5-.75 offset instead of 1.5" ish. It became important to me speeding up on the headbox. And really important running 2" dot drills. I zero at 25 yards as well.

[DocGKR]

There is definitely an offset issue on pistol mounted RDS--it is most apparent to me when using small targets (2" circle, CC head box, etc...) up close, especially when shooting at a faster pace.

[lawdogx]

Goteron - nice write up.

Doc - The offset issue is really a testament to the accuracy of these RDS-equipped pistols. Funny how I've been shooting for my whole life yet never recognized that pistols even have an offset until I zeroed a red dot equipped handgun for 25 yards, then ran a dot torture drill at 5 yards and found myself about 1/2" low.

I ran some data through a ballistic calculator to figure out exactly how much offset was present. Using WWB ammo (9mm, 115gr, 1190f/sec, .139bc) and measuring .72" from the bore axis of my G19 to the tip of my Ameriglo suppressor front sight, I got the following:

Yards Drop
0 -.72
5 -.45
10 -.24
15 -.09
20 -.01
25 0

I also ran the data out a little farther: -1" at 50 yards; -9" at 100 yard; and over four feet of drop at 200 yards.

[goteron]

Lawdogx,

Nice, i meant to do that last night, but got caught up with work. What is the distance from boreline to the center of your RMR / Optic window? I will have to measure mine tonight.

Could you run a couple of different zero scenerios? and post results to see the difference? I remember doing that when I first started shooting dots and coming to the conclusion that 25yds was ideal, but I forgot all of the numbers.

I would like to see the difference in 5-10y increments out to 150y on a 10y, 25y, and 50y zero.

Thanks for the info.

[DocGKR]

I run a 25 yd zero.

[Odin Bravo One]

I run whatever zero is on the gun when it arrives in my hands. Unless it is badly distorted, say 8" high at 3 feet, or something equally appalling. Generally speaking, everyone of my pistols is MOA out to about 50-60 yards. For the RDS, 25 yards is simple, and an acceptable distance for a handgun zero.

[YVK]

So, in a context of a F.A.S.T. drill (3x5 at 7 yards), the offset is nearly the same as a diameter of 9 mm projectile, and 8 MOA dot subtends a slightly larger area, roughly 0.6 inch. Seems like all you want is to see a dot clear above the lower edge of a card and you're good, or am I missing something, no pun intended [for example, the spot on RDS screen from which offset should be measured]?

[lawdogx]

Goteron - Your probably overthinking this ... which happens to be one of my hobbies, so let's look at some numbers.

Finding the best zero depends on your goal. For example, if your goal is to keep the projectile in the flattest trajectory for the longest time (typically the goal in zeroing a rifle), you'll get an entirely different answer than if your goal is to keep the projectile in the flattest trajectory over the distance you reasonably anticipate shooting (typically the goal in zeroing a pistol). Using the data for WWB ammo and my G19, a zero of 9 yards keeps the projectile the flattest for the longest distance. It crosses zero at 9 and 59 yards and is (+/-) 1" out to 70 yards. A 25 yard zero doesn't stay flat as long, but is flatter for the yardage you'll likely shoot a handgun. It stays (+/-) 1/4" from 10-35 yards. This is pretty good when you consider that whatever zero you choose, the projectile always starts an average of .8" low.

[goteron]

Roger, and I believe that is the conclusion I came to a year or so go. Also I would like for the bullet to never be much higher than LOS, if I must correct, I'd rather it be for drop only, and not rise.

YVK - on paper it sounds like nothing, and on the FAST it isn't all that critical, but I try to aim upper 1/3 of the 3x5.

On very close 2" dot drills it does make a difference.

Thanks

[YVK]

YVK - on paper it sounds like nothing, and on the FAST it isn't all that critical, but I try to aim upper 1/3 of the 3x5.

On very close 2" dot drills it does make a difference.



Yep, that makes sense to me. I've never shot 2" dots with optic, this will be helpful when I do.

[DocGKR]

Costa is using a 25 yd zero on his RDS equipped pistols: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l93CpnWwSdU.

[goteron]

I received my new holsters from Bladetech yesterday and went to the range to try it out with my 9 Pro.

The holster is great, high quality as always from Blade-Tech. I bought one for my 9 Pro, and .45 FS. I supplied drawings and pictures for them.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/0a3d7d3a.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/6798dadb.jpg

I had also installed an FRE on this gun, and as per Randy's instructions, gave it a quick hit with a file. I confirmed zero at 25 yards. I wanted to test accuracy at 25 with the Storm Lake barrel I have on this gun.

I shot 5 rounds offhand. Needless to say, the Storm Lake barrel provides a significant improvement over the S&W Barrel in my 9 FS. I was holding off on buying barrels until the APEX barrels are available, but I think I might just bite the bullet and order some storm lake barrels for my 9FS guns.

The two fliers are most likely my fault, as I had zeroed the gun on the barricade and was getting really tight groups.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/c8ddeb50.jpg

I shot some dot drills using our targets:

http://tacticalelitist.com/2011/07/modified-dea-dots/

At the end of the range session I decided to run the FAST twice cold to see how It turned out using the 9 Pro and new holster

I clocked a new personal best.

I was VERY happy with the way the 9Pro functioned on the FAST, very happy with the new bladetech holsters, and very happy with the Storm Lake barrels.

[Fly320s]

Goteron, how did you do that stippling? How well does it work?

[goteron]

I took a large tip from the wood burner set and ground the end flat, and then ground the shape into a triangle. I prefer larger patterns to smaller patterns, I feel it gives me a better grip without being a cheese grater. It is also a litter easier to clean if you get mud, dirt, etc into it. I am also not nearly patient enough for fine work.

I did large circles on my glocks before I sold them and wanted to try something different.

I have stippled the guns, back-straps, and a few CT Laser Grips with this pattern.