The very best 380 acp ammo for self defense?

[lawnguy]

What is the absolute very best 380 acp ammo for self defense?

[GAP]

Page 2 of this section.. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21064-380-defensive-ammo

[GJM]

lawnguy, best .380 is a bit of an oxymoron.

If you plan to carry a .380 as a primary defense caliber, you need to be able to shoot very well in terms of bullet placement. I have read a number of your posts on hardware -- how many rounds have you fired since you started posting on PF, and what are you experiencing? Software skill is much more important than hardware selection.

[Duelist]

It needs to hit the right place, and penetrate 12-18". Hitting the right place depends on you, like George said. Running the gun depends on you, too. The ammunition needs to work in the gun, so if you are going to try to use hollow points, you'll need to test them for function in the gun, and they'll need to actually penetrate, too.

If I were running a .380, it would probably be loaded with ball most of the time, unless I vetted a hollowpoint for function and penetration and some amount of expansion.

[ack495]

I think the Lehigh defense 90gr extreme penetrator has been deemed the best you can do in a .380. But some guns won't feed it reliably so test it in your gun. This bullet penetrates 17"-20" range in testing I've seen. I'll take that. So that's what I carry in my glock 42.

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[Clusterfrack]

I like BB 100gr lead hard cast.

11180
Standard pressure: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=216

"+P": https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

[GJM]

I like BB 100gr lead hard cast.

11180
Standard pressure: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=216

"+P": https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

Does that function reliably in the LCP?

[Clusterfrack]

Does that function reliably in the LCP?

I haven't got around to testing that load in the LCP. The +p work great in my old pocket carry gun, a p238.

[Velo Dog]

What is the absolute very best 380 acp ammo for self defense?

Depends.

Do you prefer making tiny or shallow holes? Perhaps a combination of tiny AND shallow?

Many people like ammo that uses the Hornady 90 gr. XTP bullet because it barely expands and barely meets minimum recommended penetration depths - except when It doesn't.

The experts recommend Full Metal Jacket. A non-expanding .380 bullet has a better chance of achieving adequate penetration. Examples: FMJ, hard cast lead, monolithic solids, and even some hollow-points - http://www.luckygunner.com/remington-380-acp-ammo-50-rounds-of-88-grain-jhp-ammunition#geltest
Penetration is job one...and also quality. Nickle brass cases, flash retardant powder, and lacquer sealed primers & case mouths are a few indicators of quality defensive ammo. [Link needed for quality .380 FMJ]

Expanding .380 bullets that actually expand...
http://www.luckygunner.com/380-acp-95-gr-jhp-winchester-w380d-20-rounds#geltest
...may still be effective, but are less likely to penetrate deeply located vitals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHmIkwTr7xs

[Cookie Monster]

I use Speer Gold Dots and will try some from ASYM really soon. ASYM is my rifle ammo and 9mm carry ammo.

[Rex G]

I have seen anecdotes of some exotic .380 ammo causing such problems as blasting the extractor clear of a classic-design Walther's slide. To be clear, I cannot confirm or deny these anecdotes, but I think I would hesitate to use exotic ammo in most .380 pistols. I used Remington Golden Saber in my Colt Mustang, but finally decided I preferred DA pocket pistols, and returned to J-Snub usage. This was in the Nineties.

Little by little, I am running ammo through my Walther PPK/s, to make sure it is trustworthy. When it is deemed trustworthy with round-nosed FMJ, I will try various non-exotic loads, and rather than worry about best terminal ballistics, will carry what feeds reliably, even if it means carrying with a 21st-Century load in the chamber, and much more mundane ammo in the magazine.

Why a classic Walther? Well, mostly, because the PP and PPK/s fit my hands very well, and the muzzles seem to tend to stay on-target during the long DA stroke, which is not true, in my long (though narrow and slim) hands, with many compact pistols. Many narrow, compact pistols tend to shift in my hand, when shot one-one-handed, but a PP or PPK/s tends to remain stable. (I reckon that if I am using a hide-out gun, it may be because I have been hit, and perhaps one hand or arm disabled.)

I think Glock may have finally gotten all of the bugs worked-out of the G42, and may try one.

Edited to add: I consider a .380 to be a tertiary weapon, perhaps secondary. I can usually manage to have a 9mm +P or .38 Special weapon on or about my person.

[Chuck Haggard]

Speer Gold Dot, Hornady XTP, Federal Hydrashock, or the highest quality ball ammo I can find.

The listed JHPs tend to open up minimally, if at all, and thus still penetrate to a decent depth. Not great, but OK IMHO.

Other than that all of the other various JHPs over expand and under penetrate. Nope.

The 100gr Black Hills FMJ mimics a no longer made Hornady loading, which interestingly enough was tested under the original FBI testing series. It wasn't a service pistol, but it did shockingly well.

[TiroFijo]

Speer Gold Dot, Hornady XTP, Federal Hydrashock, or the highest quality ball ammo I can find.

The listed JHPs tend to open up minimally, if at all, and thus still penetrate to a decent depth. Not great, but OK IMHO.

Other than that all of the other various JHPs over expand and under penetrate. Nope.

The 100gr Black Hills FMJ mimics a no longer made Hornady loading, which interestingly enough was tested under the original FBI testing series. It wasn't a service pistol, but it did shockingly well.

Thanks!

Do you have any experience with BB 100 gr hard cast FN?
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=216

There is also a "+P" version:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

Perhaps for a pistol like a G42 (light, but locked breech) or even better a more rugged G25 (it's blowback, but the slide is heavy and the barrel recoils too).

[Velo Dog]

Do you have any experience with BB 100 gr hard cast FN?
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=216

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgOa25NhFio

[Velo Dog]

The .380 ACP is limited by its small case capacity, short overall length, and low SAAMI approved operating pressure. Its projectiles will always be either too short and light or traveling too slow for ideal performance. Think of the .380 as a relatively powerful .32 Auto rather than a mini 9mm Luger.

[Flintsky]

A solid, non-deforming projectile is.......a solid, non-deforming projectile. FMJ, CP, TMJ, Hardcast, particle coated........what ever. They all pretty much do that same thing which is make a hole in tissue the size of the bullet diameter with minimal terminal effects. In Duncan MacPherson's book on projectile shape effectiveness, the two non-deforming projectile shapes that cause the most tissue disruption and tearing are a full wadcutter, or a sphere. All other bullet shapes cause minimal damage during the bullet's flight path(this includes round nose, semiwadcutters, truncated cones,.....etc.) They all equally suck.

As other wise posters have said.....the .380acp is a dead-end cartridge. It has little hope of technological improvements to make it more than an ice pick, or a shallow penetrating JHP. Yes, people die from ice pick wounds, just as people die from being shot by a .380acp. I have seen first hand a number of homicides where people have died quickly from .22lr hits to vital areas. I have also seen .380acps fail to penetrate a regular store-front window, fail to penetrate a person's rib cage, and bounce off someone's head when the hit was almost directly a center forehead hit with little deflection angle(a common problem that Dr. Roberts has observed with the .380acp, and even the .45acp). On the other hand, standard service sized calibers have a much better tissue and barrier material penetration record in the field and in the lab......along with the very desirable ability to expand and cause measurably more trauma. I suppose there might be circumstances where mouse calibers might be useful, but why use the "less than minimum" when lives are at stake?

[TiroFijo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgOa25NhFio

As an experienced reloader and shooter, that was NOT helpful... firing a 380 out of a 9 mm so it will not blow my head off? Pleeeze....

There is also a std. pressure 380 BB hard cast load.. A non expandign bullet (hard cast, FMJ, etc.) that has more mass and velocity penetrates more, that's obvious.

The G25 is very rugged, I would not be very wary of pressure and recoil impulse, my original question was directed more towards reliability, accuracy, etc. and if any SME thinks that added mass and velocity in a 9 mm caliber bullet (above the 380 level, or 38 spl std. pressure in a snubby) really adds something meaningful for self defense. In my country we can own any caliber, but there are many countries in latin america where civilians are allowed only up to 380/38 spl.

People think the 380 is a pipsqueak, even with FMJ bullets. Yet we see that it penetrates plenty in soft tissue, A LOT really in this versión. I bet the std. pressure BB load with the same bullet also penetrates a lot.

[Velo Dog]

Both the standard and +P versions are tested in the video.

Buffalo Bore +P loads have caused premature slide lock in the Glock 42
https://youtu.be/LskihWv3ALw
Very, very few people from the U.S. would have any experience with the Glock 25.

[Chuck Haggard]

I note that some RN FMJs tend to yaw somewhat to very reliably.


Note that 100gr Black Hills I spoke of earlier. It's not an uber bullet, but IMHO a sideways or backwards .380 bullet is better than a RN staying forwards.

http://www.black-hills.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/380-Auto-100-Gr.-FMJ-Hornady-2.75-in-barrel-6-3-13.jpg

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/380-automatic/


Ref "+P" .380s, again, IMHO, trying to turn a .380 into a 9mm means you need a 9mm pistol. The the two reasons to use a .380 are so you can carry something the size of an LCP, or because you can't handle the recoil of guns such as the Glock 43 so you carry a 42 instead. The hotter than standard loadings just compromise reliability, badly.

[abu fitna]

Why a classic Walther? Well, mostly, because the PP and PPK/s fit my hands very well, and the muzzles seem to tend to stay on-target during the long DA stroke, which is not true, in my long (though narrow and slim) hands, with many compact pistols. Many narrow, compact pistols tend to shift in my hand, when shot one-one-handed, but a PP or PPK/s tends to remain stable. (I reckon that if I am using a hide-out gun, it may be because I have been hit, and perhaps one hand or arm disabled.)

I think Glock may have finally gotten all of the bugs worked-out of the G42, and may try one.

Edited to add: I consider a .380 to be a tertiary weapon, perhaps secondary. I can usually manage to have a 9mm +P or .38 Special weapon on or about my person.

Points for style. But now any way one can carry a PPK one can easily match with a Glock 43, bypassing the entire Kurtz calibre debate and getting commonality in the bargain.

I say this having been unfortunately stuck some places where 380 was the only option due to oddities of local laws. When one must rely on limited choices, you focus on the thing that matters more - shot placement. But if one can remove potential unhelpful variables, it makes sense to do so.

But to each his own. I definitely understand the appeal. Why I personally dont keep a PPK - or the lovely SIG p230 / p232 - in the safe. I might be tempted to carry the thing.

[Eastex]

I note that some RN FMJs tend to yaw somewhat to very reliably.


Note that 100gr Black Hills I spoke of earlier. It's not an uber bullet, but IMHO a sideways or backwards .380 bullet is better than a RN staying forwards.

I looked up the info on that Black Hills load and it comes in at 850 fps. I've never run across that in stores around here, although honestly I haven't looked too hard. What I have seen plenty of is the Sig Sauer 380 ammo. They make a FMJ round with a 100 grain bullet that clocks in at 910 fps. Do you think with the 100 grain bullet it would be likely to have the same tumbling effect as the Black Hills round? Not for me mind you, I'm just asking for a friend.....


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[GJM]

We did an initial shoot with our two LCP Custom pistols this afternoon. Started on two inch dots at 5 yards, and worked out to steel and USPSA targets at 25 yards.

Overall, both LCP pistols were surprisingly pleasant to shoot. The first one, was lightly used, and came with what appeared to be a Ruger rubber sleeve on it. It added to girth but was nice to shoot. It hit POA/POI in elevation. Elevation varied by load. The second LCP hit left in windage for my wife and I, and a looked confirmed that the rear sight was slightly left in the dovetail. Will drift it tonight.

PMC and Privy ball hit POA/POI in elevation. The Lawman ball hit more drive the dot. Thought I read somewhere that the Speer Lawman was the approved LAPD .380 load. I tried the Federal HST 99 grain ammo in LCP #2 and experienced a stoppage. We pushed out to 25 yards with Lawman and Privy, and were getting 6-8 inch groups. Sometimes all A's in a USPSA target, sometimes wider.

I need to try the grip tape things referenced somewhere in the LCP thread. The holster recommended in the same post came, and doesn't fit -- obviously for another pistol. My wife thought the LCP to be small enough to be a viable BUG for her. Both of us commented on the trigger being appropriate for its method of carry and likely range envelope.

[DAVIDF]

I looked up the info on that Black Hills load and it comes in at 850 fps. I've never run across that in stores around here, although honestly I haven't looked too hard. What I have seen plenty of is the Sig Sauer 380 ammo. They make a FMJ round with a 100 grain bullet that clocks in at 910 fps. Do you think with the 100 grain bullet it would be likely to have the same tumbling effect as the Black Hills round? Not for me mind you, I'm just asking for a friend.....


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http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/04/380-auto-fmj-heavy-clothing-terminal.html

In the above link, he found that thru one layer of leather and 2 layers of denim, .380 FMJ's tended to yaw when velocity was below 850fps. At higher velocities they did not. That was thru his Kahr, maybe results from a different test barrel could be slightly different depending upon stability of the projectile? Perhaps that Black Hills saw the same results and decided that was the best velocity?

GJM,

I like the Speer Lawman .380 TMJ load quite a lot. It is quite accurate and functions flawless in our Glock 42's. My wife and I were carrying an XTP load, but went to the Lawman a bit ago. One of the reasons we switched to the Lawman is that in during reloads the XTP required a perfect slingshot reload. If you use the slide stop lever, the XTP will not chamber reliably. No issue with the Lawman, or for that matter other FMJ loads. Plus, in the few chronograph tests of the Lawman the ES has been very small. A lot of FMJ .380 loads have a rather large ES.

[GJM]

This afternoon, I shot one six shot group at 12 yards with my LCP Custom and Black Hills ammo loaded with the XTP bullet. Then shot some more without function issues. Good for me, and I think I will carry it.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_5012_zps8gnvtwks.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_5012_zps8gnvtwks.jpg.html)

[41magfan]

The first shots I ever fired from the Custom model was a walk-back drill with 5 rounds fired at the 3,5,7,10 & 15 yard line - 25 rds total. These little guns are quite capable.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/921/fmJhlh.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plfmJhlhj)

[41magfan]

We just finished the Firearms block of instruction this week in an Academy training class and just for fun I took a place on the line with the students and shot the State mandated Day & Night qualification COF with my little standard model LCP, drawing from my pocket.

Both courses require 50 rounds to be fired with the Day course going back to 25 yards and the Night course going back to just 15 yards. While neither COF offers much of a challenge with a service pistol, the Night course does require shooting a stage in total darkness and another with just a flashlight, so that does become an arduous task with a little pocket pistol with minimal sights.

My Day score was 98% and my Night score (target pic below) was 99.2%.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/nJ57F8.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/ponJ57F8j)

[GJM]

41magfan, great shooting! These things seem to shoot darn well for their size.

Oh, and happy fingers, I meant to say five round group not six.

[Chuck Haggard]

I looked up the info on that Black Hills load and it comes in at 850 fps. I've never run across that in stores around here, although honestly I haven't looked too hard. What I have seen plenty of is the Sig Sauer 380 ammo. They make a FMJ round with a 100 grain bullet that clocks in at 910 fps. Do you think with the 100 grain bullet it would be likely to have the same tumbling effect as the Black Hills round? Not for me mind you, I'm just asking for a friend.....


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No idea, in my observation it tends to rely a lot on bullet profile.

[Doc_Glock]

I need to try the grip tape things referenced somewhere in the LCP thread. The holster recommended in the same post came, and doesn't fit -- obviously for another pistol. My wife thought the LCP to be small enough to be a viable BUG for her. Both of us commented on the trigger being appropriate for its method of carry and likely range envelope.

For me, the thing that transformed the LCP was the Hogue Handall II. It pins into place and makes the gun so much more comfortable and gripable. Definitely recommended, but I am unsure if they make it for the newest model.

https://amzn.com/B018CUBJDG

I also found the LCP to be prone to eject the mag when I didn't want it ejected, especially with left front pocket carry. I sanded down the mag release nearly flush and the problem was solved.

[GJM]

For me, the thing that transformed the LCP was the Hogue Handall II. It pins into place and makes the gun so much more comfortable and gripable. Definitely recommended, but I am unsure if they make it for the newest model.

https://amzn.com/B018CUBJDG

I also found the LCP to be prone to eject the mag when I didn't want it ejected, especially with left front pocket carry. I sanded down the mag release nearly flush and the problem was solved.

The LCP Custom we got for my wife has the Hogue thing, and she likes it, although it is thick for my taste. Will check on the mag release, thanks.

[Leroy Suggs]

Anyone that carries a .380, .25, or .22 is not thinking clearly.

You want derp? Carrying those mouseguns and calipers is DERP.

[Slalom.45]

Anyone that carries a .380, .25, or .22 is not thinking clearly.

You want derp? Carrying those mouseguns and calipers is DERP.

My wife carries a G42 with HST's daily. My sister in law has a Glock 27 as her husband doesn't want her with anything less than a .40 cal... of course it's is in the console because she won't actually carry it. There is a time and place for everything.

I appreciate the comments on .380 ammo. Any feedback on the HST rounds in .380? I understand they don't perform like they do in service calibers, but are there any real negatives?

[BigT]

Anyone that carries a .380, .25, or .22 is not thinking clearly.

You want derp? Carrying those mouseguns and calipers is DERP.. Would you prefer they remain unarmed? Because while unideal they are all far superior to shouting fuck off at violent criminals.

I deal with enough people who can't or won't carry something bigger that ,rather than write them off as already kilt on da streetz I try find the least worst ways to apply these little guns.

What's funny is I know some hard charging slayers of men who carry a little "derp caliber" when required. I shan't tell them just how clueless they are. Because reasons.

[psalms144.1]

Anyone that carries a .380, .25, or .22 is not thinking clearly.

You want derp? Carrying those mouseguns and calipers is DERP.I tend to agree, in theory. Where that thought falls apart is people with physical limitations or dress/lifestyle/work issues that simply won't allow the carrying of a "real" gun. I've been able to find work-arounds for my 51 years (the last 18 of which were armed, plain clothes, full time), BUT:

(a) I'm in LE - so getting "made" (except by someone looking to ambush me) has MUCH lower ramifications for someone working in, say, a school, or a hospital
(b) I'm middlin' large (6'1", 250# and broad shouldered) so I have more real estate to hide crap on
(c) When I'm not in court, I don't give a damn about what I look like, so I can be as hobo as I want in order to conceal full size, "real" caliber handguns
(d) Despite the fact that I feel like I'm going to die most of the time, I don't have any hand/joint issues that restrict what size and type of pistol I carry

Now, for anyone who has the same life factors as I do, shame on you for carrying a mouse gun. Otherwise, I'd rather see someone armed with SOME firearm than not armed at all. YMMV and all that...

[Doc_Glock]

My wife carries a G42 with HST's daily. My sister in law has a Glock 27 as her husband doesn't want her with anything less than a .40 cal... of course it's is in the console because she won't actually carry it. There is a time and place for everything.

I appreciate the comments on .380 ammo. Any feedback on the HST rounds in .380? I understand they don't perform like they do in service calibers, but are there any real negatives?

I used the Precision One HST load based on the Gel tests I saw and price was good. I am not entirely confident in the manufacturer, however. After more thought, I have swapped to the Buffalo Bore standard pressure hardcast load to ensure penetration. It has run quite well in my G42, but is expensive and smokey.

[Eastex]

I just don't get the impulse to crap on someone else's firearm or caliber choice. I also like learning about this stuff but I need to break up the 9mm monotony so when somebody posts about a 45-70 or a .25 ACP I'm interested.


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[41magfan]

I suppose I've been derpy before derp was even a word.

[Joe in PNG]

I suppose I've been derpy before derp was even a word.

Same here. I toted a Baby Browning .25 for years.

[BillSWPA]

Anyone that carries a .380, .25, or .22 is not thinking clearly.

You want derp? Carrying those mouseguns and calipers is DERP.

I take it you have no experience carrying in non-permissive environments, or working with any females that like to dress like ladies and actually carry their guns on their person.


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[TGS]

You want derp? Carrying those mouseguns and calipers is DERP.

Pot, kettle.

[TGS]

My wife carries a G42 with HST's daily. My sister in law has a Glock 27 as her husband doesn't want her with anything less than a .40 cal... of course it's is in the console because she won't actually carry it. There is a time and place for everything.

I appreciate the comments on .380 ammo. Any feedback on the HST rounds in .380? I understand they don't perform like they do in service calibers, but are there any real negatives?

Shallow penetration.

In my opinion, a Hydrashok would be a better choice if you must have JHP. The 380 Hydrashok tends to expand into the .44"-.48" or so range, which means it tends to penetrate around 10-12", which is deeper than most 380 JHPs. Yes, it's a hydrashok and will fail to expand with intermediate barriers.....but that's not really a problem in this context, given the other "responsible" choice is a FMJ.

I see no reason to use the HST over the Hydrashok in 380.

[Eastex]

I've read that the 380 HST doesn't penetrate much too. It was kind of surprising considering what a great round it is in other calibers.


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[Wondering Beard]

I've read that the 380 HST doesn't penetrate much too. It was kind of surprising considering what a great round it is in other calibers.

There's only so much you can do with the small case of the .380.

[Hambo]

(d) Despite the fact that I feel like I'm going to die most of the time


Dude, that cracks me up. ;)

[Eastex]

There's only so much you can do with the small case of the .380.

I think it was Ellifritz who did the "one shot stop" study with all the different calibers. Anyway, I was surprised that there was that much data on one shot .380 shootings. I guess I had expected them to all be multiple shot events.


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[Slalom.45]

I may have missed it in here, but what about the all copper, light weight, high velocity rounds for .380?

[Velo Dog]

I may have missed it in here, but what about the all copper, light weight, high velocity rounds for .380?

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/



WORST. AMMO. EVER.

While the Barnes TAC-XP bullet can work very well from 9mm Luger or larger cartridges, the lighter weight .380 expanding/fragmenting bullets have too little sectional density for adequate penetration. The various "Xtreme" bullets manufacted by Lehigh Defense appear to be essentially expensive FMJ.